A reader asked me to write tonight about the Health Information Technology for Economic and Clinical Health Act, which is about as far from something I would like to write about as I can imagine, but this is a full service blog so what the heck. The idea behind the law is laudable — standardized and accessible electronic health records to allow any doctor to know what they need to know in order to treat you. There’s even money to pay for it — $30 billion from the 2009 economic stimulus that you’d think would have been spent back in 2009, right? Silly us. Now here’s the problem: we’re going to go through that $30 billion and end up with nothing useful. There has to be a better way. And I’m going to tell you what it is.
But first a word from my reader:
“My number one annoyance is that hospitals are still extremely dumb,” he writes. “My wife has Lupus (and other disorders) and every single freaking time we go in they always have to know the same information and fill out the same damn paper forms. I expect more, a lot more from my doctors and the systems that support them. Why are we still dealing with paper and paying people to just duplicate that effort by typing it in? Wouldn’t it be much easier to say, ‘Here’s what we have on file for you (hands the patient a tablet computer). Please review it, update any medications with dosing as well as any allergies.’ Boom, you make the changes directly in their system, you’re not repeating that effort every time and this system would be completely standards based with every other system in production. Problem is, we have no standard and it should have been laid out before any of these EHR systems were built. I’m not talking about creating another FBI virtual case file waste of taxpayer cash, but these professionals know exactly what kind of information they gather and how it’s used. There is no excuse for today’s hospitals.”
So we passed a law, appropriated a lot of money, and are now implementing a medical records system that the National Academy of Sciences says in a recent 273-page report isn’t going to do the job.
This is not the first such negative report, either.
Yet still the project moves forward because, well, there’s that $30 billion we should have spent back in 2009 and if we don’t spend it, heck, Congress might just take it back.
Use it or lose it is not the proper motivation for this or any IT project.
Remember that more than 50 percent of major IT projects fail outright producing nothing, so the chances going into this were that it would fail. From what I have read that is already happening since the whole concept of interoperability — the basic purpose of the system — seems to have been lost.
It’s not like there aren’t any good medical record systems. Back in 2007 I visited the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota specifically to learn about their medical records system that had already been in development for more than a century. Mayo built the first standardized medical records system anywhere on Earth using lots and lots of paper and had over decades refined it into an amazingly useful bit of analog technology. When I visited, the clinic was rapidly turning six million paper patient records into electrons in a way they were sure would quickly lead to saving lives simply because they’d finally be able to correlate treatments and outcomes over thousands of similar patients over many decades. Computers were everywhere and caregivers could instantly find any data they needed including X-ray images. Mayo had a good system and they were making it even better. Problem solved, right?
Maybe if we could first kill all the administrators.
Every hospital administrator has his or her own idea about how medical records should be kept. This has resulted in many different systems being developed with something less than 50 percent of those actually working successfully. But no matter how many systems failed they didn’t all fail and some are probably pretty darned good. I was certainly impressed with what I saw at Mayo.
So here’s what we do. First we stop. Whatever we have so far is crap, believe me, so let’s throw it away. It was insanity to start building a whole new records system when there were already systems in operation that were close to the objective.
We do this really stupid thing over and over in IT, which is we find something pretty good and say, “Let‘s build something like that.” Which means, if you think about it, “let’s take this functional model and attempt to emulate it with what has historically been less than a 50 percent success rate.”
I’m with stupid.
So we stop; we throw away the work we’ve already done; then we take a look at all the electronic medical records systems that are already up and running at scale. I’m sure there are at least a dozen of them running in various places around America. Our goal here is to pick the best of these systems. We don’t even have to be good at selecting because if we were to make a mistake and choose the second best or the third best system it would still be better than the disaster we’d likely build from scratch.
We figure out which is the best presently operating system in terms of functionality, reliability, ease of use, and any other criteria you’d like to add. Then we do something that is never done in IT. We take this off-the-shelf product, spend a little of that $30 billion to buy it outright, then give it to every hospital, clinic, and doctors’ office in America.
And that’s it. No R&D, no development — just pick the best and give it to everyone for free. And if there are problems here and there, well it is easier to fix a problem than it is to build a system.
Now for a really radical idea: just point Google at the problem and let them buy the system and run it.
They’ll make it ad-supported and therefore totally free to doctors and patients alike.
This isn’t brain surgery you know.
Didn’t Google already try Google Health? Not hearing much about it lately…
They wouldn’t even have to buy the one the very successful VA system is using.
What about open source? Have you considered spending nothing, except to provide some talent to a project such as openEMR?
My thoughts exactly.
There is a need to think that Health and Healthcare is NOT a business!!! It is part of the community (social) fabric!!!
Next, look at what the Europeans and Canadians are doing with reference to EMR!!!
I have been looking at putting together a tailorable OpenSource EMR/EHR System for a non-profit Speciality Medicare Clinic. The end-users for this system are the Specialist Physicians, Primary Care Physicians, and other health care providers.
I have found after extensive research that it is possible to assemble with OpenSource Software a Network-Centric System that uses National and International standards and conforms to local, state and federal regulations. All this system to work is a community of healthcare and software professionals to form an non-profit organization to nurture, maintain and upgrade this system as end-user requirements and government regulations evolve.
An open source EHR already exists. It’s called OpenEHR. The main line of development is being done at UCL (University College London) if I recall correctly.
https://www.openehr.org/home.html
While I’m generally in favor of open source work, in this case it brings us back to developing a new system; Bob’s point is that there are already working systems available.
Everything you said made sense until the point where you suggested handing control of health records nation-wide to Google. There’s so much potential for invasion of privacy there that it’s not funny.
Agreed, but knowing Google, they already have all our personal medical information stored somewhere anyway.
I don’t know how much is published about it but Kaiser’s system is really good and it’s fairly large. I never fill out anything twice and at worst just have to verbally confirm allergies, etc. which is probably just a good idea.
I’m so with that idea! Buy the best of the breed and then give it away. Even better, make it open source too. Like you said building from scratch has a very limited success rate when it comes to things of this scale. There are some really great systems out there too and really no need to re-invent.
Somewhat related, I would also like to see some change in HIPAA. It’s kind of ridiculous.
What changes to HIPAA do you want to see?
I recommend “How to build successful complex systems: lessons
from open source” by Professor Les Hatton on precisely this subject.
use the va system, like someone else already said. its free and i’ve read about the wonderful things its done at the va.
and may the medical coding profession go the way of the telemarketing profession.
I would think that the retail and commercial worlds have been here before, back before everyone was using an ERP system and EDI, etc. Standards have eventually formed because someone in the business told an IT person to shut up and do what they told them to do (implement a purchased system instead of rolling their own). Same thing needs to happen here, I agree with you Bob.
Will advertisers feel entitled to medical records data so they can target drugs to patients? What about privacy issues…security issues? There are paperless offices that request patients log in on pages without secure servers. Can their passwords be compromised?
What about the insurance companies and their medical records systems?
I don’t think they would take to kindly to anyone attempting to drink their milkshake.
I deal with https://www.scif.com the largest quazi-governmental and for profit Worker’s compensation insurance provider in California. They already cover hundreds of thousands if not millions of patients electronically but refuse to share information electronically even with the injured worker. Suddenly being able to abuse the mail system for purposeful delay or loss becomes a legal measure for an unrecoverable loss of time in one’s life.
I’ve always heard – as others have mentioned – that the VA system is one of the best, even better than Mayo. Check it out Bob and give us a report.
The VA system is called Vista. I have a copy (CD) on my desk. A couple of years ago I had to check it out for possible use by another US agency. My recommendation was negative.
In my opinion, Vista it’s not really an EHR but an enterprise practice management system. Technology wise it’s an antique written in a language called M (formerly known as MUMPS). A number of US states have attempted to implement it–including my own, but to my knowledge, none have succeeded. I know the IMSS (Instituto Mexicano del Seguro Social) tried to set up and run Vista as well. I pretty sure that little effort also went bust.
If anyone wants to know more about Vista visit: https://www.hardhats.org/.
I’m in a good place to comment on this story, because I just finished up a communications gig at a major Canadian hospital, and saw some of this insanity first hand. We’ve been no more successful in Canada implementing a uniform electronic medical records system, despite our more centralized, single-payer health care system. The Quebec government has been trying to implement a single electronic medical records system across the province for years, they’ve thrown literally hundreds of millions of dollars at it, and yet paper and pen charting and embossed plastic imprint cards still rule the roost.
One major outpatient clinic at the hospital where I worked was able to implement its own electronic system, more or less on the sly. The whole project was stewarded by one doctor, one volunteer IT guy from a totally different division of the hospital, and volunteer time donated by a very small Montreal software development firm. Most of the code was actually written by engineering students at a local university. The hardware setup is minimal, a couple of touchscreens in the clinic waiting room where patients can essentially admit themselves, and similar screens for the doctors in their examining rooms.
The results were astounding. Wait times were cut in half. Lineups were completely eliminated. On and on. The system cost almost nothing to develop and works like a charm, but it’s only being used in that single clinic and only saw the light of day at all because it was stealthed. With minor modifications it could be implemented in every outpatient clinic in the hospital. With some more significant tweaks, it could easily replace the antiquated admission system currently in place. But it will never happen. As you say, there are too many vested interests, too many egos, too much money already invested in white elephant systems that everyone hates and just don’t work properly.
And by the way, if you want a model for that system to be given away for free, how about the open source ACSiS system developed by Accesstec Inc. of Fredricton, New Brunswick? It’s currently running the entire medical records infrastructure of Belize. Yes, BELIZE, has implemented a completely electronic medical records system which connects hospitals, clinics, pharmacies and every single patient in the country. Canada doesn`t have such a system, even though the software was developed here. Not even the province of New Brunswick, which has a population roughly equivalent to Belize, has seen fit to implement this essentially free homegrown system. What`s wrong with this picture?
Article 1: Bill & Melinda Gates Commissioned Study – Declares ACSiS to produce the most comprehensive EHR globally at
http://populusgs.com/view/RC3521
Article 2: “Canadian EMR saves lives in Belize” in Canadian Health Magazine: https://www.canhealth.com/tfdnews0126.html
And here’s an article headlined “Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation declare
Sorry, that should have read Canadian Healthcare Technology Magazine.
Just a couple of key quotes from the article:
An open-source EMR that was implemented in Belize by a Canadian team more than three years ago is showing results. “We put it in for a buck a citizen for the whole nation, and it runs all the clinics, hospitals, pharmacies and labs,” says Dr. Michael Graven (pictured), co-developer of the system and a neonatologist with the IWK Health Centre in Halifax.
Dr. Graven has been involved in healthcare IT for almost 30 years, and has also worked overseas in developing countries for decades. “When you hold a dying baby in your arms, what are you going to do about it? It turns out you can do a lot with IT to structurally alter healthcare.”
…
He says there’s hard evidence from the Belize experience about the enormous benefits of a unified approach and a single, open-source platform for healthcare.
“In the history of humankind, only three things have had a dramatic impact on mortality: safe water, vaccines, and antibiotics. Technology is the fourth: in Belize, the impact of the system has exceeded antibiotics.”
https://www.accesstec.ca/
“And if there are problems here and there, well it is easier to fix a problem than it is to build a system.”
And if there’s security holes, all records get posted online.
Medical records are rather sensitive. Security and accessibility tend to be mutually exclusive. Having different systems may be a pain but it also (inadvertently) spreads risks of having the records compromised.
“Now for a really radical idea: just point Google at the problem and let them buy the system and run it.
They’ll make it ad-supported and therefore totally free to doctors and patients alike.”
This is rather ludicrous. Why not have Microsoft do it (They are actually working on such systems)? As much as Google may be respected for their efforts, no single corporation should be allowed to exploit medical records and certainly not for advertisement purposes.
There’s little to no reason for having your friend to repeatedly fill in the same forms for every visit to a hospital but that issue, whether it’s local or not, can’t be the argument for putting nation-wide medical records in the hands of a single corporation or processed using a single software product.
I can’t disagree with you that the current system(s) is way too expensive but the cure you’re suggesting is probably worse than the disease.
>Why not have Microsoft do it ?
Because Microsoft does not play well with others? And someone wrote:
“no single corporation should be allowed to exploit medical records”
It’s one thing to use Microsoft products for automobile navigation/music but quite another to use them for critical operations like flying an airplane or
communication between the State Department and its diplomatic missions around the world:
http://fcw.com/articles/2008/06/20/state-department-will-get-smart.aspx
I was trying to pump gas the other day @ a large multinational gas station – All the pumps were down – they have to reboot the computer at least once a day…
Guys the entire medical institutions in Israel from HMOs to hospitals are fully computerized. When we go to our doctor at the HMO i just pass my magnetic card and all the stuff about me is in the SAP GUI like front end they use. The Same stuff seems to be in the hospital systems. I cant imagine why in the united states this cannot be done. You invented some of this technology but you do not implement it. BTW: when we go Xray we get the Xray on a CD. The doc slides it in his computer and an imbedded TIFF viewer loads it up (autoplay). same for CT stuff..
Cheers,
Tal
We get Xrays, MRI scans, etc on CD in most clinics
Not as simple as it sounds. I work in IT as the CIO of a large health provider in New Zealand, coming from a software engineering background. Recently I sat on a parliamentary select committee looking at the design of what a single health record looks like, never mind how it is to be implemented. Very frustrating. The problem itself is not difficult to solve, and anyone with an elementary grasp of computer science would have no problems with the core concepts. The real problems are around the sheer inertia within the system, legacy systems, private systems etc, and then we get onto the subject of privacy, access and transport protocols… Folks all have their own systems; there is no Microsoft word of health records… or even a published standard…
This is why developed nations do not have single electronic systems and why it is relatively easy for developing countries to establish them.
A USB stick with folders, word docs, pdfs, PNG-images is a perfect interoperable, backup-able Medical Records system. With TrueCrypt it is also safe. What do we need more?
This sounds good if you’re a healthy, tech-savvy healthcare consumer. The flaw is that it puts the consumer physically in charge…sadly the more severe the healthcare event the less helpful it becomes. For example, what happens if you’re cut out of your car and airlifted — unconscious — to the ER? Where’s your USB stick?
Having been a healthcare consumer far more than I have liked, this is simply unusable since when you need his info the most you are least likely to have it or be aware enough to intelligently use it. Trust me on this one. An ambulance ride, high-dose painkillers or dementia will reduce your ability to manage this device down to zero.
This information belongs in the cloud with access controlled by the original consumer and/or their legally-permissible proxies.
Standards — let each facility that generates or uses patient medical information adopt their own internal system that can only be accessed from within that facility and from any related access terminals of that facility. Any medical data released to a nation wide central medical data bank would use a translator (if needed) to convert the local data format to the central data bank standard. Likewise any facility accessing the central data bank would use a translator (if needed) to convert the standardized data format into the local data format.
Over time, most facilities having their own medical data systems would probably adopt the central medical data bank standards. However, they may have certain data for use only by that facility. Such data might be proprietary data that is not kept in the central data bank.
There may arise computer systems for use by particular groups, such as hospitals, doctor offices, testing labs, insurance companies, regulatory agencies, etc. They would use the central medical data bank format for general-purpose medical data, and a custom data format for proprietary information.
Security — Individual facilities would have their own security methods. The central medical data bank would use a heavy-duty security system, including encryption of data.
(No, I have no idea what I am talking about.)
Forget the central database – that will end up as a costly magnet for data thieves and not a lot else. Instead, take a lead from the banking industry. Use SWIFT as the model: every bank in the world that allows funds transfers uses it to pass financial messages among themselves using a standard message set.
The medical equivalent would be to:
– design and publish a data interchange format that supports transmission
of prescriptions, test requests, test results, and allows GPs and specialists to
request patient data from those holding it
– provide an encrypted network with a defined, secure interface API
– mandate that all hospitals, GP surgeries, pharmacies etc. use it when passing
medical data between organisations.
This approach would not obsolete any existing medical systems and would let your medical records be kept where they belong – under the control of your GP and where major procedures took place – and thus avoid the privacy problem posed by a single national mega-database.
Great idea!
On second thought, how would you know where all the data for a particular patient resides? In a bank transfer, aren’t there only a known sender and receiver? Whereas in the case of medical records the data is scattered all over the country, in possibly numerous locations, if a central medical data bank is not going to be used.
Good point.
I think that,at least in the UK, your GP has either a copy of notes made elsewhere (hospitals, etc) or a reference to them and I assume the US system is similar or could add the external references to the GP notes.
Either way, that maps to a distributed network quite well without breeching the security and privacy benefits of having your GP as the prime reference point. The network would need a directory which could be looked up using the patients name or NHI number (UK term – I forget the name of the US equivalent) and would return a resource locator pointing to your GP.
An enquirer would have to be authenticated by the network to do anything at all. They would then use the directory, which would refuse the query if it hit more than a single reference. The enquirer could then log in to the GP’s system and access the patient’s complete records from there, following links to other repositories as needed.
There is already an industry group(HL7) defining these standards (CCD, CDA)
Such a standard already exists and the UK’s Connecting for Health programme is based on it. The standard was created by an organisation called HL7 (Health Level 7) and it comes in two versions: v2 and v3. Inter operations with messages in health care is tough business. It is orders of magnitude more difficult than what the banking industry contends with.
If each medical facility implements its own interface, it becomes very difficult for doctors and nurses from other areas and facilities to come in and help in case of natural and man-made disasters!!!
gee, maybe you should use mine. More to the point, maybe you should duplicated the format of mine with notepad, make your own electronic medical record and keep it on you as files on a thumb drive or on your smart phone.
It is a front end that takes in medical information that can be run on a tablet.
The information is spit out into a file ‘keyfile.html’ with all the medical information divided into the CCR categories (, , etc.).
The keyfile can be parsed (it can be displayed by any browser, heck, it can be read by notepad or any ascii reader).
All other files such as ekg, all paper records from the previous century, etc. are automatically linked into the keyfile as clickable links.
Other associated programs parse the keyfile to look for best practice recommendations, graphic display of data, etc. etc.
I worked briefly for a (way-too-small) company that considered getting involved in this. One reason I saw that it always fails – liability.
Companies wanted to get paid to do the development, but didn’t want to be stuck with liability for errors – errors in this case can mean deaths, and that gets expensive. So the projects ends up swamped in CYA contracts and administration and never actually gets implemented.
That doesn’t sound like what Bob would normally recommend. Normally, I think he would recommend looking at the systems. Picking top 15, buying all 15 of them at $2 billion each and letting hospitals picks which one would work best for them. Yes there would be less interopability, but it would be much better than today.
Not an unfortunate or accidental outcome, really. The last thing any profession can tolerate is a publicly available ranking of outcome metrics for each practitioner. That is about to destroy the teaching profession, and will destroy the medical profession (“What, Dr. Charlie’s patients die 85% more frequently than the normal rate? And 97% more frequently if you go in for surgery on a Friday? I’m outta here!”)
Especially as regards the medical profession, which draws tort attorney’s as flies to manure.
You will never see wholehearted adoption of information technology by the AMA – they’d be insane to do it.
What’s killing teaching, it’s the 6 year old thugs they have to “teach” and the right wingnut administrators who enforce the texts (“we won’t teach evolution”) and curriculum (“we won’t teach evolution”). Put the blame where it belongs.
I am right in the middle of complying with these so-called standards referenced in the article (we have a practice management system in a health care vertical). The compliance buzzword is “meaningful use” in case anyone cares.
The locus of evil right now in medical standards is HL7. I have worked in in IT for more than two decades and I have served on standards committees. I have never seen standards with such a low signal to noise ratio. It’s unbelievable. And the sad thing is, they don’t work – there is no interoperability. There can’t be, because there are so many conflicting, overlapping and just plain broken “standards.”
You must be using version 2.
NO NO NO!
Picking a good system is the WORST thing you could do. Why settle on one vendor’s proprietary system? This locks every doctor’s office, medical clinic, and hospital into one system, which the one vendor will charge outrageous fees for…
Design a standard that is managed by NIH, HHS, or (preferably) an independent group. Let the vendors code to the standard. Make sure that vendors are not allowed to design proprietary extensions unless they make the extensions a part of the standard.
But don’t pick one proprietary system or else we’ll end up with the nightmare we’re in with office document formats right now.
You missed the point. Pick the best system. Buy it outright. Then give it away for free. This makes it the defacto standard and no longer a proprietary system. Once you have a standard, then interoperability becomes automatic. Throw in another a few $million more and you can make a good system even better.
I have been saying this for ages. Just roll out the VA system or the Kaiser system or the Mayo System and tweak it from there. The private systems could all be bought for a few dozen million and we would have this thing up and running in 6 months.
Newsflash. They have to interface with all sorts of other existing systems. I know its a stunning revelation but not everyone uses the same systems as the VA and Mayo.
Strangely, the government already owns a great system called CPRS which it uses throughout the country in all of the VAs. It works very well, and they have offered it for FREE to any healthcare system that wants it, but for some reason the adoption rate is exceptionally low.
Come on. It’ll just be yet another Godzilla sized xsd. xml is the answer to all data problems, right?
1997:
https://www.xml.com/pub/a/w3j/s3.lincoln.html
1998:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bult.103/pdf
Which are, as usual, the spawn of Word oriented knuckleheads. 99.44% of patient data is just that, data. It belongs in a RDBMS schema, with links to x-rays and such. It’s not a document problem; the problem is that the folks who are “leading” these clusterfucks have always lived with medical data as documents, and can’t get past that meme.
I hate to saw it, but you really don’t need much of an rdms system either. You just need a way to associate patient xyz with their blob of data. That blob will be a collection of text information and images. The only trick is to provide a way to keep the patients identity confidential and to organize the data for easy use by one’s care givers.
I am “the reader” and we visit the hospital at least once or twice a year every year for the last several years. There are plenty of standards that do work just fine. Gasoline formulation, railroad track gauge, tires, why should EHR’s be any different. I am not calling for one healthcare system for all hospitals. Just one that works, NONE of these systems in my state do.
I want a system that can communicate all information to her doctors at any clinic we may be at in state or out of state. That simply is a minimal must. Right now they still have to “wait” for lab results to be sent here and there and it takes DAYS. They still can’t spell her name correctly for one no matter how many times we call them to correct it and they always seem to truncate it on her ID card and in their “electronic” system. We don’t live in a little town, there are a million+ people in the area with a monsterous new hospital to boot.
I really don’t care how many developed systems there are, and like the point brought up about banks and the SWIFT system or Bob and his suggestion to DHS using the credit card companies systems to verify identity something needs to be done. The market will ultimately decide which system meets the needs of patients and doctors (screw the administrators) but interoperability should be the #1 priority. Paper is very secure since it seems that nobody can get to it via the internet which is also it’s biggest weakness. Paper is useless in a society that travels and moves not just a mile or two but hundreds or thousands of miles every day. If I’m in an accident in NYC on vacation I’d want them to be able to instantly know my blood type, allergies, etc. without working on me blind. This is a big hazard and liability for paramedics and hospitals right now, malpractice suits because of wrong or missing information.
Eliminate the confusion, establish an enforceable standard of communication between these systems and like the stealthed Canadian one off clinic system things will improve. I simply cannot take it anymore. It makes every single hospital look completely incompetent. And I too work in IT for the last decade and would much rather deploy a system vs. roll my own.
Its not just the system or finding an existing system, but rather the bureaucratic morass that weighs heavily on the health care industry and government that’s prohibiting this. Furthermore, the health care industry and especially doctors are really resistant to change and technology. Even if this system were successfully deployed, the adoption or lack thereof would probably kill this.
In the USA we love standards so much that we have thousands of them!
Take cell phones for example: AMPS, TDMA, CDMA, GSM, HSPA, HSPA+, LTE… you name the standard, it can be found somewhere in the country.
Wait a minute, are you saying we should have a SINGLE standard?
A Single Standard??????? But, but, but; THAT’S SOCIALISM. SOCIALISM is bad, don’t you know??? Only rich CEOs make intelligent decisions. They only have the rest of us’ best interest at heart. Where’s my Brown Shirt?
Funny enough, such a system might be better run by a Facebook company that is used to tracking mounds of private data.
Another point is Bob is basically suggesting to put everybody’s health care data eggs into one basket – there’s some element of risk to that.
Then again, the IRS tracks everybody’s income & the Census tracks everybody’s other data, presumably in centralized data centers. Maybe health care could piggy-back off one of those systems.
There’s nothing intrinsically different about health care data than say income data, it’s all just bits and bytes. What’s the problem?
Oh boy…nothing different about health care data from financial?
I have been going to Marshfield Clinic in Northern Wisconsin for many years. They have been using tablet computers tied to a database for at least five years. I go to my regular doc he can pull up all my specialist comments and they can pull up his. I went to a retina specialist who showed me my retina scans on his tablet less than 15 minutes after they were taken. Solutions do exist.
The biggest problem is not the technology . . . it getting organizational culture to change. Databases, bar codes and scanners etc.. have been around a long time. Amazon knows what books I’ve purchased, what books I’m likely to purchase and mails me the right product . . . well every time. They haven’t screwed up an order for me yet.
There is a culture in the medical establishment that is very resistant to change. That can’t be easily “solved”, even if you picked the best off the shelf system and gave it to every hospital for free.
— There is a culture in the medical establishment that is very resistant to change.
Not medical, but science generally. The attitude is: “show me it’s better”. If you’ve been alive long enough, you may remember some of the drug issues of the 60s, 70s, and 80s. Hell, Vioxx was just last week.
Hmmm … Am I the only one thinking “We need a Root Cause Analysis here. Why don’t we start with a Fishbone diagram …”?
I think a lot of people would be surprised by the outcome.
I’ll add this tidbit to the discussion. About 3 years ago during my annual physical, I asked my usually placid primary care physician of his opinion on the topic of standardized electronic medical records. He got very animated by the concept, indicating that the cost would be exorbitantly expensive for his 5 to 10 physician practice. So yes, I think you’d have to give the system away to have any chance of seeing it adopted.
all you “let’s start over and dump what we have” guys… the paper mountains are gone. GONE. of everything that was sent to storage, you’ll never get 1/4 to 1/3 back.
you want lawsuits? oohh, should have gone to law school, I see a huge firm brewing out of that. Billum, Foolum, and Runn, a Fortune 20 company.
how many times have we seen folks running for the terminals, whacking out 12 patents worth of IF-THEN statements, and then someday, maybe, holding a convention at some conveniently warm island with umbrella drinks in February to build interoperality standards? with “compatible” instead of “meets to the letter” the weasel-word of the standard.
index cards and file folders, the wave of the future if you need the data NOW.
Ya we can buy one system, but none of them are complete. They all automate some part of healthcare but none of them do everything. There is a constant flow of upgrades, enhancements, and also somebody has to be paid to run the systems and support them. I’m skeptical of the notion that advertising alone will be enough to fund it.
What you are suggesting is to have a massive re-baseline and then we would have to rebuild the support / enhancement business models around this new environment.
Deploying or redeploying systems to everyone will be hugely expensive. We would have to re-train everyone involved.
Picking a winner; Google, with no competition, likely with horribly weak government oversight, would most certainly not turn out the way we expect.
Domination of a software platform where there is so much money sounds like a surefire way to create the next tech monopoly.
It’s hard to see how this helps in the short term (5-10 years just to begin realizing this plan) and in the long term there’s no competition to continually improve things.
One of the best systems, in the world, is already widely used throughout the U.S. and it is free and open source — VA’s VistA.
Unfortunately, it’s free, and thus the only money to be made is implementation and maintenance services.
Unfortunately, it’s open source and widely available, and thus no “lock-in”, no monopoly pricing and conditions.
Unfortunately, those 2 factors alone are enough to rally all politicians and medical software folks (who make Microsoft look kind and gentle) against the very practical approach of simply declaring the system we’ve already built as the de facto standard and setting about improving and expanding it’s use.
And, by the bye, there are lots of standards already. Off the top of my head, I came up with three:
ICD-9
DSM-IV
PDR
So, of course, I consulted WikiPedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_classification
The problem is tractable, in that much of the important code translation either exists or is subject to a sanctioning body. The issue is “open” storage. SQL databases are quite good at that; most even support BLOBs and CLOBs as we speak. Data transfer is simple enough. xml, meh.
Then the problem is enforcement from the feds. While you mention three standards I have no idea if the current EHR systems support all three, a combo, or none of them. Without forcing them through funding cuts to implement data exchange on all three or a single unified standard on a timely (I don’t know 10 minutes or 10 seconds???) timescale then there is no incentive for the hospitals to get their acts together.
Good point Robert. Due to an increasing number of billing problems I’ve started learning the medical coding systems. There are standard ways to collect and store medical data. There are actually systems designed to manage them. As I read through the comments on this column I can see many of us are focused on designing a system. Isn’t this similar to the problems with the original US government approach? They got too wrapped up with a few aspects of the problem and missed the big picture. The point is we need a single standard. Standards and mature software to manage information already exists. We need to make some national decisions then more forward in unison. This is being done all over the world. Letting the “market” make these decisions is the wrong approach.
Look at the USA cell phone system. Pretty much every provider has spotty coverage somewhere. Roaming doesn’t work well. Providers can’t share network access. Growing capacity and capabilities is harder and expensive. So we have a more expensive system with poor interoperability.
Bob is 1000% correct on this one.
I think a variation of this was done by one of the Blue Crosses, PA I think, basically offered medical practices a EMR solution for free. They had several to chose from but post of those practices and hospitals picked a single one.
We use Blue Cross and it sucks. They do not have EHR other than the monkey sitting behind the counter entering our info the zillionth time in a row.
I am in the education part of the development of this HealhIT initiative. As an Implementation Specialist, I am being trained in the use and application of ViSTA (the VA platform). This platform has everything that could be desired and more, even though the UX leaves a lot to be desired.
I think Bob is thinking in the wrong direction. It isn’t the system that has problems, it is the implementation. It is people like me shoving a system at the medical facility without real consideration of what they need and how this system can work for them.
Outside of that, we scoff at Google Health, but they really do have the right method. It is really important for information to be interchangeable and Google Health has the capability of creating a universal Electronic Health Record portal.
That said, I really think that the data should be utilized in such a manner that the Health Record is made anonymous and the information made public. A doctor is doing research on instances of cancer in white males, under the age of forty, and between the heights of 5’10” and 6′, with blue eyes, brown hair, and no family history of cancer. Use the proper authentication in a Universal Health Record system to run that search, and bam! Here are the results for the whole country, not just a sample.
In addition, let’s say you are on vacation. You live in Maine but are visiting California and some crazy just ran you off the road. The doctor needs to do surgery but doesn’t know that you have MS which could make things for the anesthesiologist really difficult. With your ID, they look you up in the national EHR vault and just like that, they have your full medical history, including the pin in your knee from playing football 20 years ago, that would seriously mess with an MRI.
That’s just how I’ve been thinking, coming into the field a little late in the game.
My wife is a hospital administrator. She does not decide what the record keeping systems will be. No administrators do. This entire article reeks of ignorance. Try sticking to things you know about like nonsensical ideas about IT that make no sense.
Then your wife’s bosses who are either board members or IT directors or a committee of both should all be let go.
Oh and Google health? Really? What a truly idiotic idea that is.
Lots of great ideas may not really address the problems. A few points to ponder:
1. the billions and billions to take your practice to EMR is added payments to your medicare/medicaid reimbursements up to $40,000. Do the math on how may patients you would have to see to get the whole $40,000. Not pretty and you have to been the medicare/medicaid to get it, Many clinics/docs are not and that number is increasing daily.
2a. All doctors like/want their charts to reflect the data that they feel necessary to provide optimal treatment for their specialty. Medicine, despite what the lawyers and government tell you, is NOT pure science. It is somewhere between art and science, the doctors own experiences play greatly in the outcome.
2b. The IT needs/wants can change constantly with the introduction of every new drug or test or procedure.
2c. Would you want your doctor to have the information he believes he needs to treat your condition or the information that a bureaucrat thinks he needs?
3. Life is pretty difficult to reduce to numbers. I have seen many patients whose lab results were inconsistent with life, fortunately the patient had not read the required medical school reading and didn’t know this and survived in spite of it.
4. If you really want national health care you better get ready for an national ID card, t’ain’t no other way. Then there is keeping all that data safe AND out of the hands of big pharma. Homework-which industry donated the most money to Obama, et al, to get out of ObamaCare?
5. There is already an international standard, HL7. Ask you local medical IT guy how well that works for him or her.
This really doesn’t scratch the surface, but you get the idea. It’s a laudable goal, but not as easy as it sounds.
As many have already mentioned there are the Accesstec, Kaiser, Mayo Clinic & VA systems (and probably a few more not mentioned). No financial incentives to adopt any of them and tons of incentives not to.
If there was a set of naked photos of some starlet involved one of these systems would have been adopted already.
This isn`t a new problem by any stretch.
“There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order of things.” – Niccoló Machiavelli (The Prince, 1532)
Google will simply fail at anything that involves real customer support.
Just look at the Google Places nightmare. You find your business is incorrectly listed in Google places and the only way to fix it is to get them to send a postcard to what might be the wrong address so you can return it and wait six weeks to be allowed to fix it. Meanwhile Google populates Places by crawling web spam.
Is this how you’d like your patient data handled?
Single-payer with a single EHR solves all the problems at once, but because that is politically impossible, we’re left with hideous technical problems. The root cause is that healthcare is a for-profit industry, which generates corporations, which are profit-seeking missiles that don’t care about collateral damage.
In more detail at:
http://dkretzmann.blogspot.com/2007/10/healthcare-nonsense.html
Single-payer or multi-payer? Wrong question. The real question is “On what basis will we ration health care. In the single payer systems, health care is rationed based on how much whatever parliamentary body budgeted for the year.
I know that the US never looks outside it’s borders (well, Canada doesn’t count, since it’s really the 51st state, at least as seen from south of the border :-)), but you might care to look at the great success of the attempt here in the UK to do exactly what you described… https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/05/18/nao_nhs_failed/
I think the NPfIT is exactly what Bob is warning the US against trying to repeat (except on an even grander scale – we’ve merely blown, what, £10billion, while the US has $30billion hanging around itching to get spent). Brand new, top down, centralised development, and feck all consultation with those at the coal face. It most certainly isn’t ‘pick an existing system *that pretty much works* and go from there.
I did spot evidence of the working X-Ray exchange alluded to in the Reg piece on my last visit to the local hospital. Nice to see some of that dosh did some good.
The 2 man Austin TX internal medicine practice I go to has been using electronic prescription records for 4+ years and electronic medical records for over 2 years. The only problems were at the beginning and were MEDCO and then Caremarks electronic incompetence with electronic prescriptions. My MD can do everything from generate written instructions for me, schedule followup and make referrals and show me charts of the changes in medical tests. Saves a lot of time. Also when he makes a referral the consulting MD gets all my current medical info electronically and all I have to do is sign in. As do most hospitals and minor care clinics. And my dentist. Oh, and insurance claims are as instantaneous are a debt card transaction.
Whats not to like.? And you’re right. Why are we paying for R&D when we have 5 year old system that works.
The EMR/EHR need not necessarily be one monolithic system.
The records can be geographically distributed and maintained by the healthcare providers (similar to current data on the Internet), and accessible to the healthcare professionals via a secure and restricted medical network (similar to the Internet).
This is what I want them to do. I don’t care what EHR system they run, if it fits their needs fine. But ALL of their data on the patient, X-Ray/CT/CAT images need to be able to be exchanged/synchronized/accessed with the hospital/clinic requesting it. Much like how the airlines have a messaging system for exchanging passenger records (PNRs) with other airlines. It’s how your checked bag gets from A to B when you switch planes and airlines.
Some of the objections being voiced here are very puzzling. Of course it would be expensive and complex to convert every hospital and medical office to EMR, but it was also horrendously expensive to switch from traditional film X-ray cameras to CAT, MRI and digital X-rays. It’s proving to be hugely expensive to switch from traditional surgery to computer-assisted robotic surgery. But all of these switchovers pay huge dividends in the end which erase the upfront costs.
Did you read what the doctor from Halifax said about the transition to EMR in Belize? A standardized, universal, open source EMR has had an impact greater than the introduction of antibiotics on national health in that country. It’s saving money and, more importantly, it’s saving lives. Lots of lives. What else matters? It’s time to knock some heads in our countries. Canadian and American lives are just as important as the lives of people in Belize.
You say, “switchovers pay huge dividends in the end which erase the upfront costs”. I’m not in any way opposed to advances in medical care but people have been talking for decades about how new techniques and technologies will save money, yet expenditure goes on increasing exponentially.
Here in the UK, the last government took the budget of the NHS (already one of the costliest departments in Whitehall) and in a few years DOUBLED it. Amongst the firestorm of spending was the “NHS National Programme for IT”, a centrally-mandated electronic care record for patients. In four years the cost exploded from $3.5bn to $20bn and the chairman of our government Public Accounts Committee concluded in a 2007 report that it was “unlikely that significant clinical benefits will be delivered by the end of the contract period.”
At the end of last year they canned it. You’ve got to wonder whether a return to quill pens and tallow candles might not be a good thing.
Lots to say in response to this comment. UK health expenditure is big http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_budget but the important figure is per capita expenditure, which is modest actually http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:International_Comparison_-_Healthcare_spending_as_%25_GDP.png With some notable exceptions, for example care of the elderly, people are pretty happy with the standards of care they receive in the UK. Some outcomes could improve, but in general terms people accept a trade-off which favours comprehensive care over heroic interventions.
The NPfIT hasn’t been canned, but it hasn’t been successful. For many reasons. But the approach in the UK was not the one Bob outlined. Which might have succeeded, at least in secondary care, had VistA been adopted.
per capita expenditure is here https://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/SN02584.pdf
The problem that the ARRA funding is trying to solve is generally with the smaller clinics and doctor’s offices. Most hospitals already have some kind of EHR – electronic health records system. They save money, decrease errors, improve efficiency and generally can cost justify the savings in a reasonable amount of time. The smaller medical clinics and doctor’s offices see no financial benefit to EHR to themselves, hence the $44,000 to $64,000 encouragement payments. The big money saved is with the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS), the government payer for Medicare, who works with the states on Medicaid and Hospitals and large medical groups.
With electronic records, CMS could much easier catch fraud. Safely and efficiency will increase with the required “meaningful use.”
Insurance companies don’t want to pay faster. Medical providers and hospitals want to receive faster payments, which electronic insurance submissions can provide.
Certification Commission for Health Information Technology (CCHIT) currently certifies 127 EHR systems and this number seems to be falling as big players buy out of the little fish and the smaller fish go belly up. While national system would be great, politically it won’t fly in a Republican blocked world.
A system that serves all the relativity simple needs of small clinicians and the complex needs of large hospitals doesn’t seem to exists. Most EHRs, even from the biggest software companies, focus on one or the other. The big software houses typical have at least a baby bear and a poppa bear offering. They often have even a momma bear (no relations to Sarah Palin) offering.
Yes, the Feds could go with the VA’s ViSTA, another open source EHR offering, or buy out someone like EPIC but it won’t help small (especially rural) clinics automate without training help and stick and carrot financial incentives.
SteveH has got it right, though I’ll elabroate a bit. Settling on a particular EMR is only part of the challenge – you’ve then got to install it, interface it, maintain it and upgrade it. Vista was the example that I thought of immediately – it’s barely moved out of the VA, despite the “license” cost heading to 0 – it’s all of the other costs that make Vista a real challenge.
Compare EMRs to Email systems….
One of the many problems with any EHR system is getting people to use it. Atul Gawande wrote about this in one of his columns or maybe one of his books (probably Better).
Um… “We” already have a healthcare records system that “we” paid for. The VA has been using it for several years. It’s currently got some seven or eight million people in it. Yes, it has a few issues. What massive IT/IS program doesn’t?
What we really need is universal health care, so record privacy isn’t the huge issue it currently is. If one can’t be denied coverage for anything, then keeping health care records private becomes a matter of personal privacy rather than a potential bankrupting or life destroying issue in job changes.
Don makes a lot of sense.
How about universal internet, universal power, and universal water. If no one can be denied these essentials, imagine how much better off we will all be. (Oh wait, I think the USSR tried that with toilet paper but no one would produce it for the affordable price so they had to ration it.)
@Ronc:
This is a straw man argument, and it seems to me to be based on whether one considers health care to be a basic human right, or whether one considers it to only be a privilege for those who can afford it.
To compare health care to universal water for all citizens is a bit ridiculous, since we essentially *have* universal water for all citizens. Yes, we have to pay for our water based upon a meter which measures our personal usage of the system, but the system is heavily funded and regulated, at least in the US. Water is pretty much affordable in the US. Health care is increasingly not affordable for far too many citizens.
My wife is a doctor, and it is simply incredible how much time she has to spend on billing issues and determining what kinds of things insurance companies will cover and how to recommend treatments (and code them) in such a way that both the office and the patient can be reimbursed by the insurance companies involved.
She provides health care for patients, but she spends an inordinate amount of time not in deciding the best way to treat the medical problem, but in deciding how to approach the situation so that the insurance company will cover the treatment. This simply cannot go on. It is fundamentally unsound and unsustainable.
So you agree that water meters are ok. Then health care metering is also ok. The question is whether the government will do a better job. In any case it won’t be free (or universal). Remember there is something called “government red tape”.
Or universal roads, or universal police, or universal education…
I really don’t understand the mentality of Americans [it’s always Americans] that object to universal healthcare. Usually it seems to boil down to ‘the govt can never do anything right’ – well if something is broken – then instead of grouching about how broken it is – why don’t you FIX it? Americans are supposed to be good about fixing things right?
Also keep in mind that universal healthcare is not compulsory. If you really don’t like it, you’re free to pay your own way.
Next you’ll hear the argument that you don’t want to pay for it via your taxes. Strangely enough, the rest of the civilised world manages to provide universal healthcare, with VASTLY better outcomes than your private system, while paying taxes that are not too dissimilar to what you pay. Maybe that’s something else for you to fix.
You might have to spend a trillion or two less on military adventurism, but the rest of the world would thank you for that.
The problem with the government doing everything is that the individuals involved are ultimately being paid with taxpayer dollars without limit since the federal government can essentially print money until it’s worthless. Giving them more excuses to make our money worthless is undesirable. The money is being spent by people who got into office by promissing to give stuff for free to the voters not to people who must provide a service to get paid. That’s why ideally the government’s job is to keep criminals in line and that includes totalitarian governments that exist for themselves and not for their people, threatening the free world in the process.
Again you present an entirely solvable problem [Hint – how many countries with universal healthcare have resorted to printing money to cover their costs?], as if it was an insoluble dilemma.
When did Americans start giving up so easily?
“Printing money” is another way to describe “inflation”. Basically, it means providing government services without raising taxes to pay for them. They get elected by promising to do just that, leaving inflation as the only means left to pay. Alternatively, they could just outlaw higher priced services, which is why people living in countries that do that come to the US for treatment.
Point well made and taken into every consideration of coming nationwide, not-for-profit health service.
Yes! Its called VISTA and is freely available to the public already!
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/VistA
Just take a look at the requirements for HITECH certification from the government (which is required for the practice to receive the stimulus funds): while its supposed purpose is to encourage medical professionals to adopt new high technology EHR/EMR solutions (hence the name), the requirements, fees, and approval process guarantee the opposite.
I have never been to the Mayo clinic however I was recently hospitalized. Now I am not a sickly person. Quite the oppisite. The only other time I have even been to a hospital was for a broken arm when I was 11.
In any event as is common I was not given a choice of where to go the ambulance simply took me to the closest ER, which was a Kaiser-Permanente HMO facility near my house. I am not currently a Kaiser member but I did have it at one point many years ago. I lost the insurance when I could no longer afford $12,000 a year to insure my family of 4 (a different subject entirely). Despite this they had my medical history on file and pulled it up on a terminal in the ER. The Nurse updated the info before the doctor got there.
Later when I was admitted in every room there was a terminal and the nurse could look up my lab results right in the room the moment the lab had entered them.
I know Kaiser has a bad rap for trying to cut corners from many folks but I got good care and was totally impressed by the IT records system.
I’m a recovering hospital administrator and medical practice administrator, and the author of two books on medical practice management. I’ve dealt with more than one IT guy who thinks it’s so simple to develop an EHR system.
Eventually, their eyes glaze over and they walk away – it is such a complex industry, and the day to day process, whether in a facility or a medical practice, is complex and involves parties both within the control of the entity running the EHR system as well as entities outside their orbit. And the docs – who are far, far from being technophobes – are worse than any administrator when it comes to control and how to organize their world.
Want to know who has a system, developed internally, that is widely viewed as working well? The Veteran’s Administration – the VA. I’m sure lots if IT jockeys will find all sorts of faults with it – but the thing has been installed and works. Today. Now. I understand the Johnson VA Center has it.
In healthcare, the IT systems CANNOT FAIL – EVER.
The systems are expensive, are fraught with problems and the “normal” disruption of an installation. Private practice docs are reluctant to take the hit of the losses when the install happens, and the time it takes to change and adapt how they work once the system is up. Google doesn’t seem to be tackling this one 🙂
Personally, I think EHR will become widespread. As more docs come through their residency using EMR systems, they will have developed habits that fit with how EHR systems work – or force the doc to work within the parameters of the system. There is so much which is already happening where the patient uses computers for their own data entry and communicating with physicians and clinicians, whether for telemedicine (the Charleston VA is using it for mental health patients in outlying areas, I understand) or to monitor patients more closely at home (Mass General has a program going using Intel equipment) – EHR is almost a distraction. There is a lot happening now.
As always, your posts are interesting, insightful and pointed. Thanks!
We switched to Kaiser Permanente Northern California from other paper-based providers in late 2009. We made sure that all of the older providers sent our past 10 years of records to Kaiser, which scanned them all in. Of course, all of our Kaiser doctors have access to all of our current and older records.
We’ve found that EMR makes an incredible difference in the patient experience.
Because we were new to Kaiser, we got new workups from our primary care and specialist doctors. One of them ordered a CT that found a kidney tumor in me. Three weeks later, it was surgically removed. Chances are very good that it would not have been found by my pre-Kaiser doctor until it was much further advanced.
Kaiser has an excellent internal email system that allows us to email our doctors; we get replies usually within hours. We can order prescription refills via their Web site, and choose to either pick them up at one of the 5 local pharmacies (one of which is open until 1 AM seven days a week), or have refills mailed to us. We can make doctor appointments on the Web site.
We pay the monthly bill (we’re a small group) and fixed doctor and pharmacy copays and that’s it. No niggling benefit forms, no pre-authorizations, WAY better care than we previously got. The kicker: in the first year, we paid $6,000 LESS in medical costs than in the previous year.
Compared to what we had before, it’s like living in the future. I won’t go back. In fact, when my wife recently got a new job that offered us different, traditional coverage, we turned it down.
I have a bad feeling about this, $30 billion sitting there is too big a temptation, and if it is business as usual in Washington, the best lobbyist will get the job. So the $30 billion will set back the establishment of a usable system by ten or more years (and a few billion more dollars.) If politicians can ever rid themselves of the notion that they can fix anything, and just do their best to stay out of the way we all might be better off.
On a political side note, since I am from Texas, if Rick Perry (currently Governor of Texas) ever runs for President as is rumored, PLEASE do not vote for this man. Donald Trump (or even Donald Duck) would be a better choice than Rick Perry.
Why don’t we give everything to the private enterprise to make a profit and run the nation – Goldman Sachs GM Enron all are good examples of well run companies!
In 80’s 90’s Microsoft ran whole enterprises for the government!
Germany had many Hitlers running the nation under their own fiefdoms.
Even Schindler ran his own empire.
We’re seeing security matters almost hourly WHY?
LACK OF PLANING for the needs of a App and additions in an ad hoc manner.
And you want Google to run it — just wait a year and see how porous Google is!
The UK is suffering from a 6-year late national healthcare database program – that is billions over budget and half the hospitals have pulled out.
Aren’t Google already half way there with Google Health?
https://www.google.com/intl/en-US/health/about/index.html
OK I give up, where do I find out what the doctor from halifax said about belize??
Click the “Older Comments” link and see my earlier comments. I quote him there.
The Dept. of Veterans’ Affairs has an excellent electronic medical records system up and running. It holds each vet’s complete history and other data such as graphics of x-rays, retinal diagnostic photographs, etc. The vet can access much of his information via a secure, encrypted, track his appointments, renew prescriptions, and insert personal information such as the types and amounts of supplements he takes. He can also send secure email to his primary care physician and get email in return.
Everyone involved with it seems to love it. If you want a best-practice model of medical record keeping in the IT age, check the VA’s. It is one reason why patient satisfaction with VA medical care is the highest of any provider in the country.
I always wondered how our Canadian government managed to screw up their gun registry so monstrously. Thank you for the insight.
@cringley
Your idea will never work because it has COMMON SENSE written all over it.
Yeah — that’s what I want! Google indexing all my health records for advertising purposes so I can have a shiny new “interoperable” (so long as it’s a google software) EHR app. Sweet.
Or not. I just can’t bring myself to trust Google or any other advertising agency to use such personal details in a responsible manner.
— I just can’t bring myself to trust Google or any other advertising agency to use such personal details in a responsible manner.
I would be much, much happier if people generally recognized that Google is an *advertising* company, with all the evil that Mad Men can inflict.
Does anyone else see the slogan “don’t be evil” as a textbook exercise in misdirection?
There are certainly lots of well-intentioned people working for Google (I would even go so far as to say the majority of them are). But they still report to the shareholders, and they are still obligated to turn a profit, by whatever means at their disposal.
They’re a one-trick horse until they can find revenue streams besides advertising. And when that trick wears thin, it will be “interesting” to see what other avenues they turn to.
Bob,
I worked on converting medical contraindications for use on a Web page for various medical conditions for a rather large medical outfit. One day I double-checked my results and found I made an error. I listed the treatment for one medical condition for another one. Ooops. Nothing was published, because one should always double-check their work, right?
So I casually asked my boss who was double-checking our results? Nobody. No doctor, nurse, anyone. Shortly after this, I found another position outside the company because I was scared I might actually make a mistake which could injure or kill someone.
So when you come up with a system for EMR, you might want to add in double-checking the conversion results. Because I can’t be the only person who has done conversion work like this.
How about carrying a copy of med records (yeah, standardized format would have to be devised) on a chip embedded in a credit card?
I went to fill a prescription for my wife. I gave all the insurance information (plastic cards, the written prescription) to the pharmacy clerk, and waited.
First, she copied all the numbers from the insurance card by hand and entered it all into a computer. (Never mind that magnetic stripes with all manner of data have been common for fifty years). After every entry she had to pass a bar code worn around her neck in front of a scanner, and sometimes she entered a different code of some kind into a different scanner. (Never mind that 2D barcodes, used since about 1995 and easily printed on plastic, with much more information than magnetic stripes could certainly be read by at least one of the scanners there).
I asked her whether she would return to a convenience store that had to copy numbers from a credit card by hand if whe were buying gas there. Never, she said, somewhat surprised and upset at the question.
Eventually, in about 20 minutes, it got done. I paid $35 for the prescription; the insurance later mailed me a four-page receipt for $1.50 that they paid! All together, it was a complete waste of time, and probably money because their cost had to be very close to what they actually paid.
The clerk was certainly not at fault; but the dumb programmers and executives that designed such a system were grossly incompetent.
John Lenihan
We have a history of this sort of thing in the UK; doesn’t matter whether it’s health records, or child protection information, or taxation information, the story always goes something like this …
Hmm, we have loads of data silos that don’t work together. I know, let’s put them into a BIG SINGLE DATABASE. But we’ll base the criteria for tendering to put that BIG SINGLE DATABASE together on the grounds of cost alone (got to show value for money you know).
But the people who need this information are too busy to use it, so we’ll grant access to the administrators. But the administrators are too busy administering so we’ll outsource to a private company to run it and add in access to all sort of people who *might* need the information, maybe, someday. But we’ll base the criteria for tendering for that outsourcing on the grounds of cost alone (still got to show value for money these days).
Next thing you know, the project is heaven knows how many millions over budget and goodness knows how many years late and there’s been leaks of confidential information in dumpsters and on USB memory sticks and finally the whole thing gets canned.
Here in the UK we’ve done this so many times. We don’t learn from experience.
Now re-read this and substitute database and information for “medical records”. Private medical records, which insurance companies would love to get their hands on to help calculate your cover and premiums. Scary thought isn’t it?
What always annoys me is how hard it is to get at my own medical records.
Seriously, we should be able to keep a copy for ourselves for free, without having to handwrite every little thing either, and not simply a copy of the bill. If they have to mail/whatever it to us at a later date (since most doctors just take a few notes and fill in the details later) that’s fine.
It would certainly help when going from one doctor to another – whether moving or simply changing b/c one is dis-satisfied with the service they were receiving.
I can honestly say there are some medical records for me that I’ll never get – as I last saw the only doctor to collect them almost 30 years ago; and yet, that’s one of the most interesting periods in my own medical history – along with another instance just under 20 years ago. Yet, if you don’t see the doctor often enough the records get archives and later buried so deep you’ll likely never find them if they weren’t destroyed first – information that could very well be pertinent to current doctors depending on your own issues.
So, standardize the stuff and give patients USB-sticks with the data too on every visit, or mail them an updated one shortly after the visit once the doctor has inputted the new information. And give patients the software they need to read it and update it so that when they arrive in, they can hand over the USB-stick, which then goes into a machine that first checks it for security and then synchronizes the records. (It’s not like patients need to update a whole lot.)
The old tried and true “sneaker” net 😉
The bottom line with medical IT systems is the bottom line. They are not for doctors or patients but for the billing department.
BTW my wife had to “sneaker” net her original imaging data for her ACL, schlepping around a DVD. The ortho she selected to do the replacement was chosen partly upon his practices modern patient care IT system. All patient data including imaging was available online. The surgery was done in the practices own surgery center vs a hospital. They would have even let me observe the surgery but the whole bone tunnel procedure might have been a bit gruesome even though it is all scope work.
I need to preface my comment by stating that I AM IN NO WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM SOME TYPE OF MUSH LIMPBLOW REPUBLICAN WHO BELIEVES THAT INVISIBLE HAND OF THE MARKET HAS ALL THE SOLUTIONS FOR THE WORLD’S PROBLEMS.
With that out of the way, I have my doubts about any government solution regarding health care records. Take the most recent Census as an example.
Did any of you come into contact with any Census takers this time last year? They were filling out paper forms with pencils….just like the Census of 1910. One would think that they would have been supplied with hand-held computers in the year 2010, but no. Actually, hand-helds were purchased by the Census Bureau…..$700 million worth of them. Unfortunately the hand-helds didn’t work….one of the many problems was that the hand-helds were not water resistance, so they’d quit when they got wet….like in rain. Apparently it never occurred to anyone either at Census, or the supplier of the hand-helds, that Census workers going door to door might be caught up in a rain shower. The hand-helds spent 2010 gathering dust in some warehouse.
Not enough? After the paper forms were completed by field personnel, they were taken to local Census offices, AND KEYED IN BY HAND…..like it was 1960. The Census computer network was so unstable, that it was held together by duct tape and bailing wire. Census assignments to field crews were delayed because the Census computer network was dangerously unstable, and threaten to crash if run at full power.
So if our government is barely able to utilize modern IT resources to do something relatively simple…..like count how many people live in the US…….what makes anyone think they can be entrusted with sqillions of pages of medical records?
BTW, don’t ask me how I know what was going on at Census, I signed a form that stated: “The first rule of Census is, you do not talk about Census. The second rule of Census is, you DO NOT talk about Census.”
I’ve previously worked as a programmer for a large company that produces hospital network software and afterwards I’ve been involved and in touch with the industry. IMNSHO, the problem isn’t IT or software. It’s the stakeholders.
Every doctor, every doctor’s office, every lab, every hospital (even hospitals within the same network) has its own way of doing things. Procedures, filing methods, information flow, etc, is always different in every single location you visit. I have never seen a CIO or CTO who was powerful enough to force a culture change to fit what the software does out-of-the-box. Instead, at every site (EVERY SITE) the software must be massaged and customized to accommodate the existing staff and their peculiar ways.
Want to force a change anyway? You won’t get buy-in from the staff or doctors, who will drag their feet and hamstring the switchover at every step. Eventually the project will fail simply because the people won’t use the new system.
The cost of a EHR system is largely irrelevant (even if free), because every hospital/network has to hire an army of consultants for implementation and maintenance, who refuse to work for free. Consulting costs plus the cost of paying staff to attend training pushes the cost of the initial software/hardware purchase into insignificance (for the most part).
This is the exact same reason companies like Peoplesoft and SAP make so much money on consulting fees and most of their projects fail in the long run. The successful projects succeed for a different reason: business necessity.
If you really want the health industry to adopt a unified system, you can’t appeal to their sense of duty or or their desire to “better serve patients”. You have to appeal to their wallets instead. If Medicare or, better yet, Blue Cross/Blue Shield were to impose additional fees or delays on any institution that didn’t adhere to a specific EHR standard, you’d see immediate action. Start with loose standards and gradually tighten them until you arrive at your goal.
This is something private insurers could do more easily than the government, since they’re less vulnerable to pressure from lobbyists and they control the dollars anyway.
Check this out: http://wiki.chip.org/indivo/index.php/Indivo this is a great eHealth open source project from Harvard, MIT and Children’s Hospital:
http://indivohealth.org/developer-community
It’s amazing and even written in Django, so it’s even more cool
BTW https://uts.nlm.nih.gov doesn’t provide it’s codes publicly, perhaps part of the money could be used to pay for the rights from NIH.
“Now for a really radical idea: just point Google at the problem and let them buy the system and run it.”
funny. I would have make it open-source…
“… every single freaking time we go in they always have to know the same information and fill out the same damn paper forms”
Not that I disagree with the need for better IT systems… but for you, individually… you can take an extra copy home, fill it out, and make photocopies. It might be a more practical solution than waiting for your hospital to change their IT systems.
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I can’t begin to address how bad the suggestion is to hand health records over to Google. As an aside, Google just announced it’s shutting down Google Health.
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/update-on-google-health-and-google.html
To follow Sam Yewell’s and Sam Brinton’s comments
And there are already government funded systems out there that have been storing moving and providing medical information for a few years out there. The VA has a medical records systems that is in USE for MILLIONS of Vets and seems to be a viable secure working product as opposed to a massive remake that will probably cost taxpayers billions of dollars to reinvent something that has been running quietly and successfully for a few years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VistA
It’s in the public domain and has the potential to be exported to any hospital. The biggest hurdle to this is the big IT companies cannot make as much money from it. It’s not proprietary. There will be no sales reps coming to hospitals and taking Administrative staff out to dinner, to “educational” conferences in Las Vegas and other vacations spots (not kidding about this I saw this happen when a hospital I was working shifted to a “paperless” system) and presenting glossy brochures. It wont have staff coming in to help you set it up and customize it for you for a “reasonable” set of fees (that will recur for years) I am sure anyone who has gone to a HIMSS conference recently is well aware of how the large corporations are trying to grab their part of the billions of dollars converting hearth care to electronic medical records. And if the government in any way tries to promote it screams of “Big Brother” and other less savory statements will start up giving the news people more fodder to fill air time.
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