The machine pictured here is a Sony XDCAM EX, a 1080p tapeless HD camcorder. It is a so-called “prosumer” model that lists for $7800. I bought a pair of these cameras (new in the box) at the beginning of July to use for shooting this summer’s Startup Tour. Many video professionals think these are the best HD camcorders you can buy for under $20,000. The video is stunning — clearly network-quality or, indeed, feature film-quality.
If only they both worked.
The cameras came from Abel Cinetech in New York City and we paid about $14,000 for the pair. The cameras worked fine for a few weeks until one froze-up in Boulder, CO. We couldn’t get the camera to boot. We sent it in for repair and Sony checked it into their system on 8/4. I spoke to one of their reps a few days later and was told they were waiting for parts but the camera would probably be repaired by the end of the next week.
I called that Friday and was told the parts were in and the camera was being repaired — and that I should call again in a few days. So I called back Tuesday, then Wednesday when we were in Portland and was told essentially the same thing again — they were working on it and it would be a few more days.
I called again this past Monday and was told that they needed more parts from Israel which they were expecting sometime around September 16th. The guy I spoke to was very direct and said that considering the last time they ordered parts they came in a few days late, as well as factoring in repair time — I was looking at it being ready a few days after the 16th.
At this point I started asking for a replacement, explaining that this was a new camera and that we had already spent so much on rentals (this camera rents for $100 per day). My priority was getting it back ASAP, which could be achieved by having it replaced. The guy suggested I speak to a manager and it might be possible to get a replacement.
I spoke to a manager named Sylvia on Tuesday of last week who said that they don’t have loaner cameras in the service department, but that it might be able to arrange something with another department. Silvia said she’d talk to the engineers and get back with me later that day. I haven’t heard from her since… In fact, I asked for her direct number at the end of the call and she declined, saying that she was going to send me an email with all of her contact info…. That never arrived either.
I suspect Sylvia isn’t a manager at all, but rather some support rep they put on the phone to appease me.
So I contacted my salesman at Abel as well as the sales manager. They both have been working with Sony, but all I have so far from them is a promise made to them by Sony that the shipping of the part to the service facility would be ‘expedited.’ They are still working on the situation, however and I’m told they will get back to me.
Although this is a warranty repair and thus free, I asked if I could perhaps, for a fee, have the repair expedited. All they could offer was that warranty repairs were given priority anyway, and that if I included a note with the camera requesting expedited repair perhaps they would do so if they had time. I included such a letter detailing how important the camera was to the production and requesting expedited repair.
At no point did Sony contact me about the status of the repair, even when it was delayed. Also, at no point did anyone at Sony offer an apology, even when I expressed to several people just how displeased I was.
These are great cameras when they work, but when they don’t work they are simply $7,800 bricks. Sony clearly doesn’t care about its prosumer customers. Interestingly you can get customer support on the weekend for Sony’s cheapest consumer camcorder but not for this baby.
Tell a friend. Tell them that Sony makes fine prosumer camcorders but doesn’t support them worth a damn. Tell them that Sylvia is a liar. Tell them to expect to pay $3000 to rent a $7000 replacement camera if they need a repair.
And tell them to do what I probably should have done in the first place, which was stick with Panasonic.
Tell them you want your money back.
Yeah, that’ll go REAL far. I tried that with a Sony TV that broke down on me, and they just laughed it off.
There’s a reason the alternatives cost >$20,000: support.
If you are going to go down the cheap route of buying ‘prosumer’ equipment and wish to have pro level availability from it, you should have bought a third as a backup. Stills photographers doing any kind of work they consider critical buy a backup body as a matter of course.
Hi there,
Sony’s support reputation is so bad that some shops & chains have stopped stocking their products.
It’s a real shame, because I’ve always been a big fan.
Where are the days of “It’s a Sony.”
Regards,
E
My Sony “experience” echos what Gekko said: nice gear, impossibly poor service.
I’m linking this article on my Facebook for all my video production friends to read and argue over
I used to like Sony, but I boycotted back when they had the ‘rootkit cd’s’ a few years ago.
Sorry about your cameras, I have to agree with Dan, its usually more cost up front that defines the support given.
I agree, and also refuse to buy anything made by Sony for the same reasons. Sony’s attitude to support seems to reflect the same general contempt for its customers.
It is nice to know that I am not the only one boycotting Sony products.
If available, I buy breakable gear from Costco or Sams because of their return policy:
Any electronics can be returned for full refund or swap, no questions asked, for 90 days.
This policy has been a godsend a few times over the past decade.
Costco is the way to go. They even do 30 days price match their own prices
if it goes down on everything. Just got $150 cash back on a Samsung 46″ LCD
which went down,
https://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11530592
BTW this is a commercial grade tube.
Compared with the Sony Bravia 40″ we bought at Best Buy last August, the Samsung rules. I have a suspicion that Best Buy uses dumbed down Sony’s
to hit a price point ala Walmart.
Costco for tires is also the way to go. Picked up Michelin’s with an 80,000
warranty for my 2003 Honda Pilot. Best car and tires I have ever owned.
Have you looked at Canon 5D/7D alternatives? 1080p video recorded onto relatively inexpensive CF cards (32GB UDMA cards for about $100 each)…A pair of 5Ds would run about $5k, then lenses on top of it, another $3K or so, and you really get to control the image.
Exactly – Hoberto beat me to it.
For those suggesting that $20K buys “sufficient” support for an $8K device – that’s ludicrous! It’s not like there is anything exotic in these Sony cameras.
This is bad news for the prosumer. I had 3 Sony VX2000s and used one really hard — dropped it a couple of times — only had one ‘minor’ problem (and not with the one that got the hard use.)
Of course I want HD and I also want to get away from tape, so I’ve been looking at this camera.
I had also considered the Canon Mark 5, after I heard that an entire episode of “House” was shot with it.
You are living the every videographer’s worst nightmare — thanks for the heads-up.
I wish you the best.
Wow, the power of the “pen!”
Canon 5Ds might be an option, but you’ll have to focus your own content (no auto focus).
I wonder where all those lessons Homer Sarasohn so dutifully taught Masaru Ibuka and Akio Morita went (Stranger in a strange land by R. Cringely )?
Just as a quick FYI, if you buy a Sony turntable, you get roughly the same treatment. Only they keep it for six months and don’t actually fix it.
I think Sony has just given up on support. We had a similar experience with a TV. They’re relying on the strength of their brand as being great products but have no backup or support. We were particularly impressed with their premium rate line so we could pay to hear them telling us they couldn’t fix it.
Check out this site for Sony’s HDTVs: http://sites.google.com/site/sonylcdrptvproblems/
Sony’s basic response to customers is “Meh, we don’t care that you spent $3k on a projection HDTV that crashes after 3-4 years. Here’s a crappy $100 discount on our crappiest Bravia TV available. Take it or leave it.” I said no to that deal. Other people are suing, and I might add, winning. Sony’s days are numbered.
Our current LCD TV is a Sony XBR. The next TV is probably going to be a SamSung or LG. Too many bad comments about Sony products to make me feel good purchasing anything Sony.
Bob, welcome to the world that we peons inhabit.
This situation always reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon: “… it all came together when I realized that I hate our customers…”
Maybe in your next column you can complain about some other company which has wronged you or a personal friend.
The last two columns are disappointing because it is coming across as whining.
Companies are often incompetent, especially if there is no additional profit for them.
If you’re stuck for the next column, you can explain to me why my mother has to wait 6 weeks, and get fingerprinted for her passport, but the Mossad seems to be able to print EU passports at will.
Some of this may boil down to the fact that people’s jobs are being discarded due to “costs” , but you and I, everyone, knows that customer service is DEAD (or outsourced to Mumbai.)
Additional profit comes from repeat business or word of mouth advertising given by happy and satisfied customers.
What Sony is reaping is negative advertising that will result in lost sales and a smaller market share.
Speaking from past experience, columns generally come from personal experiences or encounters. I am glad Bob wrote up his experience with Sony. If a company is willing to blow off someone with Bob’s following, then where do the rest of us stand in getting anything done?
Nope, not whining IMHO. It is education of the consumer.
In fact, someone should forward this column to the Consumerist and let it snow ball from there. 🙂
Sony’s service, or rather the lack thereof, is the reason I’ve not bought or recommended any Sony products in over 10 years.
I see they’ve not changed.
Every since Sony’s rootkit fiasco a few years back, they haven’t gotten a single penny from me.
F*** Sony. Besides, I thought that Canon had the best “prosumer” cameras? To each his own, I suppose…
[…] Cringely has had a bad experience. These are great cameras when they work, but when they don’t work they are simply $7,800 bricks. Sony clearly doesn’t care about its prosumer customers. Interestingly you can get customer support on the weekend for Sony’s cheapest consumer camcorder but not for this baby. […]
I have been schlepping Canon camcorders to the middle-east three or four times a year since 1999 and their customer service is absolutely above reproach. I recently sent my XH-A1 in for service on Thursday and had it back the following Tuesday! As a (free) member of Canon Professional Servies, they have supplied me with work order forms and labels and I couldn’t be happier. I have used many Sony video products in the past and still rely on their displays for editing-can’t say much about their service though. I’ll stick to my Canons-thanks.
I agree completely re: Canon service. I called their tech support line about an discontinued inkjet printer with clogged heads late in their day, and they unfailingly provided polite, knowledgeable advice, as well as forwarding me on to appropriate persons who responded exactly the same way. Every single one thanked me for buying a Canon product. If they’re willing to spend time with me discussing a $150 printer, they’re going to treat someone who bought an $8,000 camera just as well, if not better. Go Canon!
Ahh, the fun of dealing with phone support. I hate it when they make promises to get you off the phone, but never record or honor said promises.
That has to be really annoying to spend so much on a camera, only to have it break in a matter of weeks, too. I imagine you will think twice before you buy another Sony Camera, I know I will…
Bob,
Sorry to hear about your issues with Sony. I’ve been stranded waiting on gear that will be ‘fixed any day now’ and the pain is infuriating.
Does your budget allow you to buy another camera rather than continue to rent one? The rental is painful but purchase might hurt more. It just depends.
Can you go switch over to the Canon 5D solution? We did a video on one and it came out great. A link to the video is here: https://www.prospectmx.com/tag/matt-cutts-rocket/. I don’t know if that will work for you but it might be worth renting a couple and giving it a try.
I wish you luck on keeping the show moving – can’t wait to see it.
Joe
Nice video. The focus is really good, but the color seems a bit odd (the saturation seems to vary widely). I wonder if it was post-processed for color?
I don’t know what they did for post processing. We had a lot of issues with clouds moving in and the daylight shifting as the day wore on. It made for interesting filming that is for sure. With the right tools the color saturation issue could be resolved (I think).
Using this forum as a bully pulpit is not a bad idea…virtually everyone here has the savvy and the means to be in Sony’s preferred customer demographic. I hope you are able to provoke Sony to providing the service they should have provided all along.
However, I agree with Mike Lewis’ post: at this point get your money back from the retailer. They likely will have a suitable (if not ideal) replacement from another manufacturer. I would imagine that your trip sponsors will be anxious to get this technical problem resolved quickly, as it is affecting their investment as well.
Everyone has bad customer service experiences now and then… but Sony was frighteningly consistent with me. Terrible, every single time. Product warranty expires while it’s stuck in service and the item is sent back to me DOA?
The response I got from the customer service manager I spoke with: “If you choose not to buy our products, sir, that’s really your decision.”
Did you counter with, “If you choose not to honor your warranty, sir, that’s really a judge’s decision”?
Dammit! If only I’d been that sharp. After four months of wasting time, though—my experience was similar to Bob’s game telephone tag—I was just as happy to walk out the door.
Their consumer stuff is not much better. I have a Sony BD player that would freeze and pixelate on discs that played fine in my other player (a Samsung). I sent in for warranty repair and a couple weeks later it was returned with a dented top that it didn’t have before and a piece of paper saying they could not reproduce the problem. Several emails later, they suggested that I send it in with a disc that exhibited the problem. I guess that my “Dark City” disc is a better diagnostic than whet they have. I did and it was returned with a new top and a replaced drive.
Worked perfectly until I got the “Being Human” box set which refuses to play. I bought a Panasonic player and it works beautifully. I emailed Sony that these discs won’t play on their device yet lay on my Samsung and Panasonic.
Their suggestion. Watch the website for future firmware upgrades.
Bob,
Stop wasting my time. I give you my attention because you make a lot of interesting points. When you put up a post like this, I feel abused.
Stop whining and deal with the real world. And stop wasting your readers’ time with a “if I use my readers to create social media buzz about my problem, maybe my problem will go away” post.
– Bored
And yes, I know I am whining too. That doesn’t justify your post.
I actually think it does.
Hello Boring Reader. Far too many people are too cowardly to talk about the garbage that manufacturers sell us and then don’t support. It’s important to be aware of Sony’s lack of respect for its customer base and their dependence on their products’ reputation to stay alive. We are now better armed to make a decision about whether we wish to support such a company as Sony.
+1 to Dan’s comment.
-1,000,000 for Bore Reader. Really. Bored Reader, it is not always about you.
I live (as probably many readers do as well) in the Silicon Valley and Sony used to have inhibit a large Black building off of North 1st. In that building they had a service center. They also had one just off of El Camino Real in San Bruno as well. Both are long gone and I suspect Sony has probably cut back on its repair/customer service in order to become profitable again. Guess what, this leads consumers to cut back on Sony purchases. Years ago I used to have Sony TV and several other consumer devicess. Now, nothing and probably never will.
I can echo what E OConnell said about local service centers. Used to have one right by me in the Irvine/Tustin, CA area, and the one time I had to get my Handycam serviced there (I believe the issue was caused by the old mixing-MiniDV-tape-brands problem; haven’t had any problems with the camera since the service several years ago), they did a good job, inexpensively, and relatively quickly.
The local service center has been gone for years, and I sure hope my cameras don’t need servicing before they’re replaced by new technology, given what I’m reading here.
Cringe, fora like this are generally the only way people find out about manufacturers screwing customers like this, so thank you very much for this column — I disagree with those that said it was a waste of time.
A different Dan, but another +1 comment. 😀
Cringely may be using his bully pulpit to bully Sony into giving him service, but given that timeline (8/4 to now, still no fixed equipment) and the customer support abuse, Sony deserves every scathing comment dished out. If they had any decency at all they’d reimburse for the cost of the rental equipment.
In a couple of months when it’s all fixed up please let us know how it went…
Regards
Perhaps Sony is on our side and withholding Bob’s replacement equipment until we get NerdTV season 2. Some of us would chip in for both, Bob, if you asked. 🙂
As much as CNBC got on Apple’s case over antennagate, one would think they’d now be on Sony’s case.
Sorry, Bob but as much time as you spend with “us geeks” you should have KNOWN to have a backup.
How many Software Engineers can get away with “my computer’s down”? And how many “Traditional” engineers fail to account for spares (and still keep their jobs)?
You apparently have a money making machine. Where did you get it?
Um, didn’t you see the post? He bought a pair. Was he supposed to purchase three or four so he had a backup for each?
Read the post again. If the 2nd is a backup, why do they need to rent one?
They use two cameras to record an interview. One is for Bob, the other is for the company rep. A third camera would be a backup for the two active cameras.
Sony – the best
Get a Canon
It’s not just customer service that’s gone downhill. I worked at one of the studios about eight years ago and it was hands-down the best big-business experience I’ve ever had. However, over the past couple of years a majority of talented and experienced people within that division has been let go and replaced with much less experienced and equally less expensive individuals. By their accounts things ain’t what they used to be.
Customer service is just the tip of the iceberg. I wonder how long it will take managers to notice how expensive those pesky engineers and R&D researchers are.
Back when we were in college, we were responsible for keeping the student television station on the air. There was a lot of Sony equipment in that shop and the common consensus was that “Sony is Japanese for cr*p.”
I’ve owned a number of Sony products in my day, including a hand-me-down TV that’s been working excellently for years, but yeah, it’s no longer the first name that comes to mind when I think “quality, affordable electronics.”
It’s astonishing to me that a company like Sony would so carelessly piss away the great reputation they had. I assume the problem is they see customer support as a necessary evil and drain on resources when in reality happy customers are just as important an asset as any intellectual property they may have. This reminds of Time Warner Cable in my area (Los Angeles); I was thinking of switching to their internet service for the faster speed but the reviews of their customer support are so universally bad on Yelp / Angies List that I decided to stick with SBC.
Someday these companies will learn about this new fangled internet and realize good and bad news travels fast.
I have pretty much abandoned all things Sony for panasonic in the last five years. The Sony stuff no longer holds up, has fewer features, lower performance and costs more. Really sad to see what has happened to Sony.
Whenever you buy something that is a ridiculously good value, you *always* need to buy n+1 of them.
I once bought an AirLink print server from Fry’s Electronics for $20. It had two parallel ports and a USB port. Comparable print servers were $60-$80 even online. I bought mine and put it to use, and it worked great for 2.5 years. Then it died. I had to scramble and buy a new D-Link one for $60 plus shipping to replace it. I pulled it out of the box and discovered it was *IDENTICAL* to the $20 AirLink model inside. The case was a different color and shape, but the ports and lights were all identical in number and placement to the ones on the AirLink. So I paid three times as much to replace it as I had to buy it.
The next time Fry’s had AirLink hardware on sale for ridiculously cheap, I bought n+1.
Sony closed their Chicago area service center a while back but they opened a sales “boutique” in an appliance/electronics retailer.
It turns out a replacement battery for one of the Sony portable DVD players costs about as much as buying a new player.
I’ve had several commercially released DVDs which will play in my iMac but not in a Sony component DVD player.
The trend is not good.
Tell them to watch this video about Sony: (WARNING: definitely NSFW)
https://www.theonion.com/video/sony-releases-new-stupid-piece-of-shit-that-doesnt,14309/
Looks like Bob got two of them … that’s hilarious!
Let us be thankful that a certain consumer electronics company doesn’t make camcorders.
(“Yes, sir. The gamma is optimized for people with 8 forward facing eyeballs and one rear-facing eyeball!”)
Bob,
Send a telegram to Sony’s president with your complaints. If you don’t get any satisfaction right away, dump the Sony junk. Replace it with products from a quality manufacturer that also has a good customer support record.
Our studio recently sent our 4 Canon GL2s back for check ups and repairs as needed. Each cost the same, the service was reasonably swift (within 7-10 days round trip) and the process a delight over the internet. New moving parts gives us essentially new cameras.
For what it’s worth, I had a similar, though not as expensive, experience. I had a DAT machine with a transport that went bad three months into ownership. I brought this to their company store in NY where they told me it would be about 2 weeks. Three and a half months and many phone calls later I was told that they could not even find the machine I gave them to repair! Ten days after admitting that I received a new one in the mail. The replacement machine has since outlasted the format!
Just forget about your camera, Bob. From my experience any product that breaks soon after purchase usually will continue to give you many more “weird” problems later on a regular basis. When you get it back, sell it as soon as possible and buy something else.
Bob,
Sorry for your troubles. Your closing comment though is spot on. You need to by a Panasonic camera (perhaps an AG-HPX170). Superior recording formats and GREAT customer service.
I don’t think ANY video professionals think the EX series of cameras are the best under $10k. IMHO that honor goes to the Panasonic HPX300, which is only slightly more expensive.
to the guy who suggested the 5D: your lack of knowledge is hilarious.
Hi Bob,
I am with you on this!!!
I personally think you really went soft on them; if I will be in your place I would have made complaint against them or would have sued them.
I think in current financial scenario every business has to focus on their customer service. More specific example will be Zappos.com, they provide one of the best customer service in the world!!! I think it will be really beneficial for every business to spend some time studying how Zappos.com is offering to their customer.
Moreover, I am NOT going to buy any product from SONY.
My choice will be Panasonic!!!
Thanks
Pratim
When OUR EX3 went down, we got a replacement from Able Cine the next day, and we had the broken finder replaced with in a week?!
Contact your credit card company and challenge the charge. You did not receive value for the dollars spent. Let Able Cinetech and Sony argue about who gets to keep the broken camera. Then go get a Canon. Then you can write a post comparing the two.
No, do NOT do a chargeback. That will only screw the merchant he bought from. His problem is with Sony, not the merchant.
Chargebacks should be a last resort, and only when you have an issue with the merchant who sold you the product, not when you have an issue with the product itself.
In this case I think writing publicly about it was the right thing to do.
-Erica
Wellcome in the pro products world.
If it’s a well established product, then it’s very likely you did it right.
If it’s not, well you need to lend a hand to debug it. And this is not a choice you can skip.
A few years ago I had a similar problem with NetGear top-of-the-line firewall.
http://slashdot.org/submission/622234/Fair-manufacturers-technical-support
The bottom line reads: skip the bleeding edge stuff, no matter the company name is
(Sony, Apple, Nokia etc.).
So true. There was a time I would be right there wanting the latest and greatest. Now I wait a revision or two and get a stable product instead. 😀
why they told you that they need parts from ISRAEl from all the places in the wrold ???
Israel has no relations with Sony, no factories or a large consumer base, so why she mention Israel, i wonder
I had very similar problems with Sony in the UK, over an expensive computer monitor that broke. Delayed repairs, repairs that didn’t work and had to go straight back. Constant waiting for parts to be shipped from abroad. Lies about when it would be done. Refusal to refund or replace the device.
It seems Sony are scum. Unless they are the only possible option for a product I will never buy anything they make again.
TANSTAAFL
The basic problem here is that companies regard the people who work in technical support as an “overhead” and see support as a “cost” – so when the managers are asked to reduce overheads and keep costs down … guess what? Cut the support people and eliminate the spare part inventory.
See, the way it works is that a company makes a product – often with little thought to how easy it will be to repair – and then they market the product. But of course customers usually want some sort of warranty when they buy a product so the company throws in a warranty too – but it’s an afterthought, it’s never seen as part of the “cost of sale” … so there’s never any money put aside to fund the warranty service.
Most companies cover the costs of running a service department with the income from the out of warranty repairs and often expect the service department to generate a profit – as well as covering the costs of providing warranty service. I’m sure you can follow this slippery path without me going into the painful details.
And of course – Bob wants a product that, realistically ought to sell for $14k-18k, for a nice cheap price – under $8k … what a bargain! You got a great deal there Bob – but now the company doesn’t have the money in the product to support it – because when the bean-counters set the list price they didn’t provide any money for support.
I worked in technical (hardware and software) support end end-user support and training for 20 years and it’s always been this way. Companies that realistically fund service departments to provide the level of support that their products need will have products that cost more than companies that don’t provide decent support – and customers will always buy the cheaper product – just like you did.
What’s surprised my is that it’s taken the airline industry so long to cotton on to this – customers don’t matter, profits matter … it’s the American way.
Welcome to the future.
I have bought four SONY devices during the past few years. Not a single one lasted more than three months beyond the expiration of the warranry.
Remember Sony’s BETAMAX ( VHS prevailed ) Sony is a fiasco.
How’s the zoom? We have an EX3 that has a point in the zoom that it sticks slightly. So we’ve learned where that point is, and don’t zoom across that point. We sent it to Sony for warranty repair, but they said the lens was working within tolerance. And literally said, “What do you expect from an $800 lense?”
Why didn’t you just rent them to begin with? Then it’s the rental service’s problem. Don’t say (now) that it’s cheaper to buy!
After having several issues with Sony receivers and the dreaded “protect mode” error, I replaced with a Yamaha. The Sony cam died. Canon replace that. So… It’s not surprising to hear issues from other folks. No more Sony products for me. One can sacrifice quality only so long before it catches up with you. However, to sacrifice quality and support in the pro gear is undescribably short sighted.
For those who think this column is whining — you missed an important point.
Clearly Sony has made some business decisions. All companies make changes in how they do business. Sometimes they are bad for the consumer. Sometimes they are done for the wrong reasons.
If you make high quality products, you will spend a lot less in product support. When you do have product quality problems you are better prepared to “wow” the customer with your ability to deal with it. For years Sony enjoyed this status. They could charge a little bit more for the product. Their customers were willing to pay more and knew Sony’s products would last for years.
In the world of intense retail competition and cheap knockoff products, Sony has probably found itself in a difficult situation. To compete, they need to be price competitive. Cuts have been necessary. Today’s Sony products are often not at innovative, not as durable, as their predecessors.
This problem isn’t unique to Sony.
A few years ago consumer electronics came with full year warranties and you could expect your purchases to last 5-10 years. Today they come with 90 day warranties and you’ll be lucky if they last 3 years. (I have a box full of dead products to prove my point.) The sale of “extended” warranty plans has become BIG business.
If you think Sony is bad, you haven’t lived until you have had to deal with Microsoft over a dead Xbox 360. (I have one of them in my box too.)
This is a scary industry trend. We are now in the world of $400 cell phones and $2000 TV’s. Do you remember when phones were free and TV’s cost less than $500? If I am going to spend that much money, I’d like it to have a good working life. Who do you trust?
Well Bob if they don’t fix the camera now… well what hope is there for the rest of us. Am I naive, but hadn’t anyone at Sony heard of you?
This seems all too common, and seems to be getting worse. I think maybe we’re all a little too swayed by “positive reviews” – essentially some yahoo has had the thing for a day and a half and then describes the product as if it’s the second coming. Trouble is with such short refresh cycles for products, an proper review is hard to actually do with a shipping product. We’ve also been brainwashed to work on “Internet time” where a review of a product more than a week old is “stale”.
I hope they fix your camera soon.
Hi, Jeremy, I’m ashamed to say I was a “yahoo” for a cheap a** chinese ipod knockoff. For about $ 75.00 bucks, I just had to have a 4″ touch screen, 8GB capacity (with expandability via micro SD slot), FM radio, Mp3,WMA and other formats player, direct video player (AVI, Real player) without need to convert it, e-book reader (.txt files), picture viewer, audio recorder, and 5MP camera, with video with sound. After getting it, I was invited to the store’s website to comment on it. I waited about 2 weeks, then sent in my thoughts. Right off the bat I noticed the camera was the weakest link. I did mention in my “review” that the camera sucked. It was said to be 5MP, but the pictures looked no better than 800×600 even when “set” to 4MP or more. I still thought the other features of the player were worth the $ 75.00 price tag. Well, now it’s about 8 months since I had it, and the touch screen is acting up.
To Bob and others out there, “Caveat emptor”.
Actually sounds like a good deal to me
Can you post or email me the specifics ? like product name and name of shop ????
Thankxs
oceanallin att gmail dotty com
Ditto. I had poor service from Sony getting a failed Blue Ray drive failure.
Let me fix that post 🙂 I got one of the original PS3 80GB units and the Blue Ray drive failed after the warranty period. My kids used this machine a lot, playing Rock Band and other stuff. I sent the machine to Sony, who sternly warned me that if I had tampered with the box in any way they were not going to fix it. I hadn’t and fortunately it passed “repair inspection” with the remark “scratches on case”. What a relief ! They told me it would cost something like $150 to replace the drive. A bit cheaper than buying a new PS3, and my model also played PS2 games in hardware, so I anted up. When the machine came back it worked, but all the hard drive was wiped ! My kids lost their Rock Band, “The Agent Potters” which they had spent a year building up. I also lost all the downloaded games from the Sony site. I don’t see why the hard drive had to be wiped clean for just a blue ray drive replacement. No explanation from Sony.
More and more companies are resetting people’s systems, be it game consoles or computers, to factory and applying patches all without telling the customer.
This happened to a friend and her Macbook Air. She could not back the unit up because it was the USB portion of the system that failed. She was livid. Apple had erased important business documents without telling her or offering to back the system up (for a fee of course).
It is not only Apple though. Other companies do this and they think nothing of it. After all it is only data and of no value in the companies’ mindset.
Yes, it is a very sad world we live in now.
By contract my kids’ Wii also started failing to read disks and I had to send it in, a few months after the warranty period had expired. Nintendo waived the repair charges. When I got the console back it was a replacement, with a different serial number and all – but all the saved game information had been copied from the original unit to the replacement unit. So Nintendo gets a thumbs up from me !
By coincidence (how did “contract” replace “coincidence?) . . .
By contrast . . . not contract . . .
Sony encrypts the entire hard drive with a key specific to the PS3 it is mounted in. If you take the HD from one PS3 and put it into another, you don’t get the data from the first PS3, you likely get a request to format the drive. Back up any game data you want to save onto USB sticks.
The North East “regional repair center” for Sony is, or was as of a few years ago, in Long Island. Since I live in NYC it was easier for me to drive out there and pickup the camera I had sent for repairs. It took me a while to find the “repair center”. I finally saw the Sony logo wedged between an I-Hop and a nondescript bodega. There was no parking lot , so I drove around looking for a legal spot. I found a metered spot and walked a block to “Sony’s North East Regional Repair Center”.
As I approached I thought I must have the wrong address for this was nothing but a storefront shop, hardly a “regional” anything. Walked in, there’s a counter, and old racks filled to capacity with every Sony product imaginable. It took no time for a man with a hard to place accent to appear from the rear. I told him what I was there for, he walked back to the rear and spent a few minutes chatting with another man in a language vaguely similar to what I now know to be Na’vi, except their skin was not blue.
The man walks back with a package in his hands – it’s my camera. What a relief! But there was a problem … well by now you know the story – they were waiting for a part. But how could the Regional Repair Center be out of a part?!! Where was the part coming from??! Pandora!!?
I never got a straight answer. I walked back to my car only to find a parking ticket – the meter has expired, and so had my patience.
Ahh, this sh*t’s made for selling, not for workin’ ???
Wow…. that really stinks. I’ll have to think twice before getting a Sony product.
I’ve purchased two Sony Vaio’s (consecutively) over the last few years and both had a failure with the touch pad, where the mouse would move erratically. The second one was erratic from the day I bought it.
I went through the warranty process where I had to chat with a live rep. I explained the entire problem in a big paragraph, then one by one, the rep. asked me questions that were already answered in my original question. I could type my side of the chat in 5-10 seconds, but he was taking a minute between questions like he was handling multiple customers at the same time. My side of the chat was mostly “are you still there?”, “have we been disconnected?”, etc. as the delay was so ridiculous.
After twenty minutes, his solution was for me to drop my laptop off at a warranty repair center, then wait 60-90 days for them to repair it.
I don’t know about you, but I use my computer and it’s a lot of work to back up and wipe the drive and 90 days from now, my computer will be 90 days old.
As the CEO of a company with 25 staff, I personally make a purchase decision on a dozen laptops and two dozen computers every 2-3 years, not counting new hires or accessories for our server facilities and I wouldn’t touch a Sony computer because of this experience.
People are always asking me which computer to buy and I always warn them away from Vaio’s.
Always have a backup if mission critical – you needed two so you should have bought three!
My personal paranoia record is 63 backup images of a university teaching lab system in 32 different locations!
Your first mistake was buying a Sony. Next time, get a Canon. They have real lenses, too.
I’ve run my own systems support consulting shop for about 20 years now. I quit buying Sony products about the time they came out with the Vaio and their “gumstick” memory (I seem to remember that was about the same time Microsoft ME was released).
Whenever there would be a problem with a Vaio, it would be nearly impossible to repair with standard parts. Sony always had some kind of oddball screw pattern for the disk drives, or an oddly shaped power supply, etc. It seemed to me that they always used some proprietary trick so you’d have to purchase an overpriced part that wasn’t available on the wider market.
Haven’t bought a Sony product since, not likely to in the future.
Remember Compaq? As I recall they pulled the same kind of proprietary parts crap; others probably have, too. At one time Compaq were real innovators and they all but owned the PC market (they took directly it from IBM, in fact), but today that are considered a low-end brand, at best. In my experience their good reputation never did live up to the hype, anyway.
I am not surprised Bob. I was a Sony fanboy years ago and had similar problems with every Sony device I owned. I haven’t owned a Sony device of any sort for years and my life has been much happier as a result.
I honestly don’t know how they maintain their so greatly underserved reputation.
Well, isn’t it US that have brought the industry to this point? How long ago was it that you had to spend $50-75k for a professional quality video camera? Times have changed, and everybody wants everything cheap or free… The result is predictable.
Your experience is exactly why I stopped buying anything with the Sony label on it years ago. I bought a high-end DVD player from them (when it worked the picture was fabulous) but when it failed within days of the warranty running out, all I got from them was ‘sucks to be you’. The stated repair was more than the original cost of the player (which was just shy of $400). I was an owner of record, and this player had a track-record in-house for a long time. Recall? Ha! You funny!
Last Sony product I will ever buy.
Other companies make better, less expensive products, and when they break, they fix them, sometimes pro-actively. What a novel concept.
Gary
Last sony product I bought was a (then) 3800$ HD TV. At random times, it failed to boot. Retailer and Sony said it was a known problem and I would get a replacement. After three months, I put my foot down and retailer replaced it with a Samsung, running six years later.
Last Sony product of any type I am buying….
Sure glad I came across this before our budget process was complete… Shifts our emphasis ti Lenovo for our Laptop upgrades – we will ask for specific performance guarantees.
I completely agree, ever since the rookit on the CD I have stopped buying Sony Thank you for reaffirming my position.
There can be nothing better then sony when it comes to camera technology. I wonder why has the writer confined it to panasonic!
This only reinforces my belief that all of today’s consumer electronics products, even the prosumer variety, are meant to be viewed as disposable. In the long run, when something breaks, it’s apparently cheapest, per unit of time owned, that the product simply be thrown away, and another one purchased to take its place.
Therefore, I view everything that I “own” as merely a rental, where the price paid, per unit of time, is justified if it seems reasonable. For example, I can go to a local store and purchase a fairly capable notebook computer for about $600, including tax. Let’s say this machine lasts 12 months. At that time, I throw it away, or more likely, have it recycled, and ask myself whether it was worthwhile paying $50 per month to rent a computer. The answer is usually a definite “yes”, and if so, I go out and buy a similar computer, for a similar price, with the expectation that I’ll get as much value out of it as the previous one.
I don’t know what the consumer protection laws are in South Carolina, but here in California, if a consumer product has been out of your hands for 30 days or more, you’re entitled to a refund or replacement (at your option) under California’s lemon law (officially called the Song-Beverly Act, if I recall correctly).
As there is a federal consumer protection statute (I think it’s called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act), I wouldn’t be surprised to find that South Carolina has their own version of the lemon law on the books. If it’s anything like California’s, you can sue for the price of the camera, the cost of the rentals, and a civil penalty of up to twice the purchase price of the camera. In California, if you sue in Small Claims court, you’re maximum damages are $7,500, so in this case you could only get an extra $500 instead of the full $3,000 in rental fees.
I’m not a lawyer, but until consumers start holding these companies accountable for their actions, where is the incentive to stop? Why should Sony care about inconveniencing you, or your losses, unless you make it unpleasant for them?
Keep in mind that these are consumer protection statutes, and so far as I’m aware don’t do anything to protect business purchases (which it sounds like yours may be).
Bob:
Do us a favor, look on that camera and see if there is a label that says something like: assembled in china under supervision …
:^)
> Bob : And tell them to do what I probably should have
> done in the first place, which was stick with Panasonic.
Which is the company I recommend to anyone asking me
where to buy from, after Sony had decided to infect their
customers with rootkits.
I have had exactly the opposite experience with SONY.
In 2004, I purchased a SONY PD-150 DVCam and for six years it has worked flawlessly. I am only now starting to see a focus problem.
I was seriously considering a SONY NX-5 until reading this thread. Too juch money for such a risk.
I’m hearing Canon is building a video camera based on their D50 still camera.
Had a Canon XL-1 back in the 90’s. Loved it but needed the low-light capability of the PD-150.
Sony makes great earphones. Good base response. Beyond that, haven’t bought anything Sony in decades. You pay for Japanese craftsmanship and get mainland manufacture.
A few years back I had the same problem with a portable CD player – Sony’s service SUCKS. And since then I have never bought another Sony product!!!
[…] Sounds like Cringely is having some trouble with his Sony – tip for Sony – don’t piss off anyone with a blog that’s read by thousands of professionals, it really screws up your reputation https://www.cringely.com/2010/08/its-a-sony/ […]
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[…] s told they were waiting for parts but the camera would probably be repaired by […]…
Good to know information, as always, Bob
A few comments…
First, I do not agree that we should expect whatever we get. The so-called
“How can you get ABC feature for XYZ amount of dollars, you’re being unrealistic” argument. If a company advertises it, then they have an ethical and legal obligation to provide it {within some degree of reason}. If you argue otherwise, then WE shouldn’t complain as WE’RE speaking out of both sides of OUR collective mouth.
Second, if we do not complain to the companies in question and hold them responsible, then we are simply reinforcing the behaviour of said companies to continue the status quo, or allow things to get worse. Don’t complain, then yes, expect what you get-YOU are contributing to the problem.
Third, I have great respect for Mr. Cringely’s journalistic work and character. However, being a tech. expert/authority, he knows darn well that one is not advised to choose the newest, shiniest product around and immediately put it into production. As someone else put it, tech product review these days are often biased, and at best, only cover performance. Reliability assessments are next to impossible on brand new products.
Finally, here’s a way to challenge electronics companies about their cheaply-made products. Almost every brand nowadays is touting some variation on the “green” or “environmentally-friendly” words these days. Next time a product breaks and the brand/mfgr. tells you that you’re out of luck, ask them just how “green” their company is if their products doesn’t even last past the warranty period.
Shplad
While I am sure Sony makes good products, I have refuse to buy anything made by Sony because it’s always a hassle.
The digital cameras still require memory sticks, which are incompatible with everything else. The video cameras seem to have issues with working with computers.
It’s hard to believe that Sony used to be such a great innovative company, but they lost their way years ago.
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When I was living in Japan for five years, the Japanese themselves told me they never bought Sony except for Walkman because Sony was well-known for breaking down easily. For TVs, they usually bought Panasonic, Toshiba, Hitachi, Sharp, and Sanyo.
I am glad to see that someone else already mentioned the rootkit snafu.
We must make sure we remember these things, people. Corporates who are not paying attention to their customers deserve to have it shoven up their &%$&£.
If I was Canon or Panasonic, I think I’d offer to replace your surviving, functioning camera with two of my own, and then resell the Sony on eBay – that would show Sony what’s real customer service, and would cost them much, really.
Well count me as another former Sony customer.
My DV camera’s capstan roller (a micro piece of plastic) broke and most shops said even though the part was obviously cheap and minor that I would be better off purchasing a new camera because of the difficulty finding the part and the hours required to install. So I moved on to a Canon camcorder.
Also, owned a high end ($1,000+) stereo amp (circa, 1993) that quit working. The repair shop told me they couldn’t obtain the part cause of its age. I understand that stuff isn’t supported forever, however this was their a top of line ES amplifier that cost me a bundle, so I expected at the very least it would be repairable. Had it been a cheap model I would not have had the same expectations. So, I moved on to Yamaha amp.
Sony is dead to me.
[…] I, Cringely » It’s a Sony – Sony getting called out over service levels. […]
Anybody who would spend $7000 for a camera without researching it deserves that kind of pain. Always check consumer reports, review sites and buyer comments. Bob should not have been surprised. What a moron.
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The authoritative point of view, it is tempting
For what it’s worth …sent in a Panasonic consumer product to their depot repair facility about a year ago. Booking was fast, and efficient. *They quickly sent me a box to ship it in*, repair was < 2 weeks with zero charges even for shipping.
Now this item wasn't anything as esoteric as your device, but I can safely say execution was the most competent display of support prowess I've ever witnessed.
Long ago (30 yrs) – I worked for a competitor (so I know a few things). These guys are just plain good.
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I’ve vowed to never again be fooled by Sony after the debacle of warranty support for their Vaio notebooks. I work in a University library where the dean and 1 or 2 others in the front office wanted the sleek and sexy Vaios for their use. The first time one of them went wrong Sony support pretended they didn’t even know me, despite our having paid for 3 year extended warranties with accidental damage coverage, to boot.
Sadly, Sony only loves you until they get your money.
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How’s the zoom? We have an EX3 that has a point in the zoom that it sticks slightly. So we’ve learned where that point is, and don’t zoom across that point. We sent it to Sony for warranty repair, but they said the lens was working within tolerance. And literally said, “What do you expect from an $800 lense?”
I’m in complete agreement on Sony laptops; I suspect they extend to other Sony products as well. The company simply isn’t oriented towards long term customer satisfaction.
I understand the difficulty in working with the consumer market, but as someone posted previously, they don’t build in the cost of repair into the cost of the product.
Make take on my Sony laptops:
1. Pretty design.
2. Hard to take apart to repair
3. Sony support has problems identifying parts, which indicates that the design isn’t geared towards repair.
4. Sony onsite extended warantee is a third party company, and is geared towards requiring the unit to be sent in. Onsite repair is normally 7-10 working days, which fails when comparing to Dell’s offering.
5. They always wipe the laptop’s hard drive, even when the forms says “do not do so”
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I just subscribed to your RSS feed, not sure if I did it right though? Good article by the way.
This is getting a bit more subjective, but I much prefer the Zune Marketplace. The interface is colorful, has more flair, and some cool features like ‘Mixview’ that let you quickly see related albums, songs, or other users related to what you’re listening to. Clicking on one of those will center on that item, and another set of “neighbors” will come into view, allowing you to navigate around exploring by similar artists, songs, or users. Speaking of users, the Zune “Social” is also great fun, letting you find others with shared tastes and becoming friends with them. You then can listen to a playlist created based on an amalgamation of what all your friends are listening to, which is also enjoyable. Those concerned with privacy will be relieved to know you can prevent the public from seeing your personal listening habits if you so choose. oyunlar1
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