Immigration policy and trade protectionism play large roles in the new Administration of President Donald Trump. With the goal of Making America Great Again the new President wants to more tightly control the flow of goods and labor into the USA. Over the last week this has taken the form of an Executive Order limiting travel from seven specific Muslim countries. That order wasn’t well done, wasn’t well explained, has caused lots of angst here and abroad and is at this moment suspended pending litigation. That order is supposedly about limiting terrorism. It will be shortly followed, we’re told, by further Presidential actions limiting abusive labor imports using, specifically, H-1B visas. This time, depending again on how the actual order is interpreted, it might be the right thing to do, because H-1B visa abuse is a very real thing that has hurt American workers.
Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.
The point of this column is to look at this promised Executive Order (a draft of which can be read here), discuss how it might be misinterpreted by the general media, and decide whether it has a chance of actually accomplishing Trump’s stated goal of increasing employment of qualified American citizens.
The draft doesn’t really say anything specific about the H-1B program. Instead it orders a study of all worker visa programs (this is key as you’ll see below) and directs appropriate agencies to work on changing those visa programs to benefit U.S. employment and economic productivity, which aren’t always one and the same.
I’ve written quite a bit about H-1B abuse and don’t want to have to repeat all that so here are links to my old columns about it no particular order. The short version is high tech employers say there is a shortage of good technical workers so they want to hire from abroad. The truth is that there really isn’t such a labor shortage, it’s all a scam on the part of employers to keep wages and benefits down (there’s a shortage of cheap labor, not labor at a fair price) and the worst part is the foreign workers brought in under H-1B are often worse at their jobs than workers who could have been hired locally. The whole program is a disgrace and Trump was smart to go against it.
But when Trump’s H-1B Order is finally announced, it is doubtful that the information in my last paragraph will be part of the story because much of the press has bought into the company line that there’s a national tech labor shortage. Last week, for example, I heard a Bloomberg News reporter say on TV, “we all know there’s a terrible shortage of technical workers in this country.”
Actually “we all” don’t know that, yet if the idea is laid-down without question or qualification in the lead of a Bloomberg TV story, then that means an Executive Order targeting H-1B abuse is likely to be seen in the wrong light, too. If it seems to be opposing free immigration (being protectionist) then the same people who are (probably rightly) criticizing the current seven country travel ban are likely to see this next Order as doing essentially the same thing. But this time they’ll be wrong and it is important for us to know that.
If you are going to march in support of H-1B visas, at least be informed about the subject of your march, because Bloomberg sure the heck isn’t.
Now the cynic in me just has to speak up, wondering aloud how President Trump will actually spin these changes in employment immigration to somehow benefit both the workers/voters to whom he has made promises and their Big Business bosses, who presumably have somewhat different objectives?
Channeling President Trump, I think Trump IS going to wack the H-1B program, which will affect mainly Indian IT consultancies, but he’ll leave unchanged the L-1B visa program that allows American companies to shift their employees to America from abroad.
Think about it, in this case with IBM as an example. IBM Global Services sees itself as competing with big H-1B users like Tata and Infosys and an H-1B ban or severe limitation would give IBM — or any similar U.S.-based multinational — an advantage, especially if the L-1B visa program is left untouched. With L-1B, IBM can use its own Indian employees MAKING INDIAN PAY AND BENEFITS to do the work here in the USA. No need to pretend you can’t find an American worker as presently required by H-1B. No need to advertise. No need to pretend you are paying a locally competitive wage.
L-1B visas are hardly ever mentioned in the press yet they are even bigger than H-1B already. It’s worse for American workers than H-1B, too. So what if Trump cuts back or freezes H-1B numbers without touching the (presently unlimited) L-1B program? He’ll still be keeping a campaign promise, yet also working to enrich Big Business at the expense of the very people who voted for him.
We’ll just have to wait and see which way it rolls.
You’ve got to be kidding me?!? Another post while you continue to ignore your Kickstarter? Completely heartless.
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All it takes is 5 minutes of your time to say SOMETHING. You have got to be one of the most uncaring and insensitive (or oblivious) people I have ever had the misfortune of being in business with. Beyond disappointed…
Trump will probably change the L1-B to remove the “Foreign parent company” option so that it only benefits U.S. parented companies… ?
Indeed, for the vast majority of Americans who dont have a mineserver this is just SAD.
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Tweet Donny and see if he can get involved.
He’ll comment on the failed Kickstarter just as soon as he figures out a way to shoehorn IBM into the conversation. I say failed, but I actually don’t know…. he has just dropped it completely. No communication; no apology; no “sorry, it just doesn’t work;” nothing.
This comment is relevant because it speaks to the Cringely “brand” and whether you can trust what he writes. You be the judge.
Sounds like IBM Central is licking it’s chops to get some digs in. What did Henry II say about Becket? Who will … me of that meddlesome priest” So an IBM troll on patrol?
Heck I contributed to the Kickstarter just to help Bob encourage his boys. I considered it a gift in return for being able to read and enjoy Bob’s writing over the years. If we end up with a real Mineserver – fantastic. If not, I trust Bob and the boys enjoyed the experience.
Unlike H1-B, L1-B won’t support Wipo and Tata’s business of essentially “reselling” visas… which is going to affect the economy of India.. no?
Heck I paid the transfer fee for the Nigerian prince just to help him move his money. I considered it a gift in return for being able to read and enjoy the writing in all those emails over the years. If I end up with a real fortune – fantastic. If not, I trust the prince and his boys enjoyed the experience.
i lol’d
“I considered it a gift in return for being able to read and enjoy Bob’s writing over the years.”
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We’re not too different. When I back projects on kickstarter, especially technology ones, I do so in large part to read and enjoy the progress of the creators as they work towards getting their project done. Sometimes I back a project enough to actually get whatever it is they’re making; other times, just enough to be a part of it — I’m well aware of how these things go.
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In this case, however, I did back the project for a noticeable amount (not so much that my wife spotted it on the credit card bill but enough that she’d be pissed if I told her I’d gotten nothing for it) because of Cringely’s reputation. But, I haven’t gotten anything — no mineserver, no updates, no, nothing.
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“If we end up with a real Mineserver – fantastic. If not, I trust Bob and the boys enjoyed the experience.”
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Maybe they enjoyed it, maybe not — but the fact remains that Cringely & Co. were paid — for info/entertainment and for actual mineservers — and did not deliver.
Roger, why do you endlessly talk about yourself on every post you make on miseserver?
I, I, I all the time
Every post you make is just you droning on about yourself
“Roger, why do you endlessly talk about yourself on every post you make on miseserver? I, I, I all the time”
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Mostly because I don’t presume to speak for others.
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I can only relate my experiences and motivations. Anything else is speculation and hearsay.
It’s worth noting that I really appreciate that Roger does this. A lot of people on the Kickstarter page have done the opposite and speak in “we” and it rarely is what I think/feel, so I enjoy that Roger does this. Feel free to typecast my personality as a result.
I do think some of the vitriol and trolling about the mineserver project has been ridiculous. You backed a technology project carried out by 10 year olds and that project, for whatever reason has failed.
Does Bobs whole career have to be denegrated becausenor his kids project?
Roger Sinasohn, your ” High on the autistic spectrum” trolling is quite frightening. Although you probably don’t realize quite was a prick you are being. Take the blinkers off
Wait until these guys find out that the Girl Scouts do not actually make those Girl Scout cookies, boy are they gonna be mad.
My daughter is a girl scout; I know all about who makes the cookies. I should have saved my money and bought cookies instead of backing the Mineserver project.
It’s all a lie. Girl Scout cookies are made with 0% Girl Scouts.
“I ate a brownie once”
Fake news, fake news. I personally witnessed the production line where 10,000 girl scouts make the cookies.
Hmmm… I’m not sure what you mean by ‘”high on the autistic [sic] spectrum” trolling’. Are you intimating that I am autistic? Or perhaps that I claimed Cringely is autistic? Neither is true, although I have never been tested.
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Am I being a prick? Well, that’s quite possible and it certainly wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been accused of that. But I think that in this instance, at least, it’s not so much that I am being a prick but more that I am upset and angry. There is a difference.
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Also, I think you mean “blinders” but perhaps that’s an idiom I am unfamiliar with. (See? That time I was being a prick.)
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As for having “backed a technology project carried out by 10 year olds,” Kickstarter’s TOS require creators to be at least 18. Doesn’t mean a kid can’t come up with an idea and do all the work; it just means that there has to be an adult involved who takes responsibility.
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Then you made the claim that “that project, for whatever reason has failed.” I’m not sure how you know that since no one (kid nor dad) from the project HAS SAID ANYTHING about it. If it has failed, then fine. I’ll take my lumps and move on. Wouldn’t be the first project I backed that didn’t work out. But the last communication from Cringely & Co posted on Kickstarter (back in early November) was that “we’ll finally start shipping the week after Thanksgiving.” So the last we’ve heard is that it HASN’T failed but instead was ready to ship almost *three months* ago.
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Does Cringely deserve to have his reputation maligned because of all this? I would argue that yes, this does speak to his integrity and credibility.
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I hope this helps you understand where we’re coming from. And if you’d like to send me the $100 I put into the project, I’ll gladly go away and stop commenting.
Roger,
You seem to have a good knack at capturing thoughts in writing…
Looking at your background, I assume you are an unemployed or underemployed programmer – correct? How do you feel about H-1b and L-1b visas impacting your employment opportunities?
Being in the unfortunate situation where $100 is meaningful, does it bother you?
I’ll work backwards on your questions…
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“Being in the unfortunate situation where $100 is meaningful, does it bother you?”
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I’m not sure that I would call my situation “unfortunate”. There are billions of people on this planet and I’m confident that most of them (perhaps as much as 99%) consider $100 meaningful. I don’t think that’s necessarily bad; there are advantages to not taking extreme wealth for granted. My kids have had a lot of experiences that I would say are better than some of the kids they’re friends with (whose parents think nothing of dropping $100 on something.) Sure, we don’t go to resorts in Turks & Caicos, but when we do travel, I think we get more out of it.
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That said, there are a lot of people who are unsure where their next meal is coming from or where they’ll sleep tonight and that’s not good. It’s something that the rest of us need to do something about.
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Mind you, I would love to be ultra-wealthy; I would be really, really good at it. (I’ve got my eye on this yacht for $230k that’s really sweet, but my wife would *definitely* notice that on the credit card!)
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Lastly, not that it matters, but I think you’ve misunderstood my situation. If I spent $100 on lunch every day, it would quickly become a problem. But I do make a fair amount of money and, were I anywhere other than *the 5th most expensive city in the world* [1], I would be considered extremely wealthy. I also have three rather expensive kids — we spend upwards of $15k on arts training (dance, music, theatre, etc.) and supplies each year just for the older two. And we eat out way more than we should. So, yeah, to throw away $100 is meaningful.
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“Looking at your background, I assume you are an unemployed or underemployed programmer – correct? How do you feel about H-1b and L-1b visas impacting your employment opportunities?”
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I’m not sure about “underemployed” — I do only work 40hrs/wk (I’m old now). But I’m definitely employed.
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While I’m not really knowledgeable enough to comment on the H-1B and L-1B visas, you did ask for my thoughts so here ya go. It seems to me that that issue is not with the visa programs or the people who come to this country with them (and for the record, I’m all in favor of more people coming to the US a la Canada); the real problem is the corporate culture that emphasizes short-term profits over good citizenship and long-term benefits to humanity. Companies want to dump their waste in drinking water supplies if it boosts their profits, regardless of whether or not it kills off their customers in the long run. Companies want to hire cheap labor from overseas rather than hiring locally because they can boost profits, again without regard for the well-being of the communities in which they do business.
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Until we can change that sort of mentality, I think the whole H-1B/L-1B issue is moot — if regulations change in a way that eliminates their profit-based benefits, companies will simply find another way to cut costs and increase profits, still without regard for anything else.
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I think that Public Benefit Corporations like Kickstarter [2] are a good start in correcting this, but only a start. Think Bailey Building and Loan instead of Potter’s bank in “It’s a Wonderful Life”.
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More so, however, I think people need to get it in their heads that we’re all in this together and that helping others help us.
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Unfortunately, it seems Cringely hasn’t figured that out; he doesn’t seem to care about anyone other than himself, even people who have given him money in good faith. He just sits there with his wealth and privilege gives the impression that the rest of us are unimportant and not worth his time or effort.
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I hope this answers your questions. Too bad Cringely doesn’t do the same.
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1] https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/index
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2] https://www.kickstarter.com/blog/kickstarter-is-now-a-benefit-corporation
Please don’t give Roger an excuse to talk about himself, he doesn’t need encouragement
You want to see something funny copy and paste this line into google:
“dan baker” site:cringley.com
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Bask in the glory of the long history of copious contributions to the “good debate on these columns” he’s offered over the years.
@Freeman This is what came up in Google
Your search – “dan baker” site:cringley.com – did not match any documents
Been crushing the conversation since 2017. Way to go, Dan! Keep up the good fight: http://i.imgur.com/uShuTky.jpg
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(-_- ; )
@ronc: I get the same result as shown at Dan Baker’s #1 Fan’s link. 1 hit – this article. Your name in the quotes returns at least 10 pages of hits, mine returns 4 pages, both of us having regularly posted comments going back to at least 2009. According to Google, Dan’s only contribution to this forum has been to stalk and harass other commenters with offensive and abusive language at this single article.
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Way to go Dan. All you’ve ever done in this forum is embarrass yourself. You might want to establish at least a tiny record of non-trolling behavior before accusing others of trolling. Roger does have a history of commenting about the Miner-Server controversy instead of the subject of the OP, but in those comments I’ve never seen even the slightest impoliteness or disrespect aimed at another commenter, and if you don’t understand by now the Miner-Server protest march’s justification for invading this forum, you’re going out of your way not to get it. Maybe you can borrow some self-respect from someone. Just don’t ask Bob, he seems to be fresh out. (Happy 1-month anniversary of Cringely’s most recent broken promise for a simple update “in a few days”).
… And 3-month anniversary of the most recent update at the official Kickstarter project page for the Miner-Server.
… Continuing a long-established trend of broken promises, like this one to provide weekly updates and this one that “We won’t do THAT again” after going 7 weeks between updates – about half the time it’s been since the last one.
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Note the statement at that first link from last July: “Once we have the AIM update we will begin shipping within hours as all the Mineservers (more than 300 of them) have been long finished and are waiting only for their SD cards.”
Uh Huh.
“You seem to have a good knack at capturing thoughts in writing…”
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Also, thank you for the very nice compliment. I appreciate it.
“Am I being a prick? Well, that’s quite possible and it certainly wouldn’t be the first time I’ve been accused of that.”
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Nor will it be the last time…prick.
And your fallacy is…. tu quoque. Whether or not I’m a prick, it doesn’t mean that Cringely isn’t nor does it lessen his offence.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
Went to your website. Nice pictures.
Wow, here comes a guy complaining about other peoples’ “vitriol” in a post where he calls someone else a “prick”, offensively insults the autistic and demonstrates a complete disregard for the responsibility to inform oneself about the subject matter before accusing others of “trolling”.
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Cringely’s dug himself a deep enough hole as it is. Dan Baker’s kind of help is the last thing he needs.
Serves him right!
Why would any company apply for (limited) H-1B visas rather than (unlimited) L-1 ?
With an H1-b, the company is not required to pay Social Security and FICA taxes for the employee, yielding a savings to the company of 7.65% over hiring a US Citizen or Green Card holder.
This is nonsense. Employers absolutely are supposed to pay FICA taxes for H1B employees. Don’t spread misinformation please.
You have to work for an overseas subsidiary for 12 months before you can transfer to the US under the L-1 program. With H-1, the employee does not need to have previously worked for the company.
The L-1 program is good if you have employees that have been working for you, and (for whatever reason) you want them to move to the US. But if you don’t have those people already working for you, the program doesn’t help much
How confident are you that this provision is followed, and companies do not simply declare that so and so has been working for us for 12 months?
[…] An upcoming Executive Order may lead to fewer H-1B visas but more of the little-known L-1B visas. – Read full story at Hacker News […]
Certainly eliminating the H-1B visa program would be a step forward. Just over a year ago the NYTimes reported that Indian outsourcing companies had gamed the system and that just 7 Indian IT companies got over 16,000 visas. That’s 16,000 American IT workers who were not hired and likely many who were also fired. (See https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing-companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html) If that’s not exporting jobs, I don’t know what is.
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I haven’t heard about the L-1B visa program before. No doubt it was designed in the shadows to prevent any scrutiny under daylight. Thanks Bob for telling us about this government awfulness.
> I haven’t heard about the L-1B visa program before. No doubt it was designed in the shadows to prevent any scrutiny under daylight. Thanks Bob for telling us about this government awfulness.
There’s nothing hidden, or secret, about the L-1 program. It was not ‘designed in the shadows’ – it is well-documented on places like uscis.gov. But your not having heard about it is perhaps the point that Bob was trying to make here – for whatever reason it doesn’t attract as much media attention, and as such may deliberately be left untouched.
As I have said when this has come up before, the problem is not the H1B program per se, it is that a certain set of consulting companies are abusing it. I have worked with many great H1B recipients and because I don’t work for terrible consulting companies they were doing roles that it would otherwise be difficult to find talented people for. The real problem is that half a dozen companies are abusing the program. Just make a rule that no more than 5% of domestic employees can be H1B and the abusers would probably disappear. Too me that makes much more sense than trying to connect it to some kind of prevailing wage for a region and position.
I’m sure it is more than just “certain consulting companies” abusing it. This country graduates several tens of thousands of Comp Sci students every single year. Some of them are good enough and willing to risk the start-up life (presuming they want to live where those are – it is a hell of a life living in “poverty” in San Francisco just to hold onto a valley job given that you can’t afford to actually live in valley).
Others just suck, as do a portion of students in every department. No biggie. They’ll just do what they do. I don’t keep track.
Others just want stability, the very same stability that factory workers used to have. They’re not “great”, but they’re good. They’re reliable. They are given something to code and they code it. Slowly they get a little better. Many turn to management and some of them are actually good at that, knowing enough tech to know when us genius devs are lying to them 😉 .
But generally they just want a steady job that allows them to get married, have a family, and still be employed somewhere in 40 years for retirement, and they don’t see how striving to be the best of the best of the best is going to get them that without an early coronary. Just like factory workers used to have. There are hundreds of thousands of those who are like that and have graduated, often with lots of A’s, in CS programs across the country.
And none of them can get jobs because even as mediocre but good enough as they are, an “American” worker is “expensive”, so the companies hire an H1-B instead…while telling the government that these people, at the rate of 20-30 thousand a year, don’t actually exist.
And it isn’t just some consulting businesses – any tech company of over 1,000 workers starts to do this, never mind a 100k+ company like Microsoft or Oracle.
Amen, crushed it, well said, etc.
The only thing missing from this job market is people with the willingness to serve at that price point. Want to make America great? Reestablish those old notions of investment and loyalty by having companies train their own employees and then attempt to retain them over time. The relentless and destructive race to the bottom has brought us to this point and it’s going to take more than bad hats and broken promises to fix. Start the process by tossing some of these short-term fixes overboard.
Want to save H1B? Require 125% of market rate salary. Allow the visa holders to move about the country and not be beholden to a single employer. Cap the number of visas any company can hold (not be granted, but employ). These guys will move around to fill the places in the market where the demand is highest, no single place will be saturated to the point where market rates are washed out, and no individual companies will own the program to the extent they do now.
Hey, Bob, maybe you could apply for an H-1B or L-1B visa and hire someone to finish your kickstarter project for you? Heck, you wouldn’t even need to do that just to hire someone to post an update for you.
Roger, you are annoying thousands of other people who read this blog and its comments by persistently posting comments that are not related to the subject under discussion.
Ditto
No he’s not. Please read all the other comments, to gain more insight into this long-term issue.
Ronc is right. You might want to start here at the source. Bob’s words, one and all. This is where my opinion on the subject formed. See for yourself.
@Plover — Feel free to let Cringely know that your enjoyment of his writing is being degraded because of his failure to fulfill his obligations. Maybe if you and the thousands of other folks all brought it to his attention, perhaps he’d actually address the issue.
The sound of your whiny asshurt is cringe-inducing. Take the gas pipe already and spare us any more of your ridiculous kvetching.
Hey Bob – Are you as impressed with the quality of your ad-hoc defenders as I am? It’s always a hoot watching people try to defend irresponsible behavior. Stay Classy!
“Take the gas pipe already and spare us any more of your ridiculous kvetching.”
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I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don’t understand the heinous connotation of what you wrote. You might want to avoid the mixture of death by gas and words of yiddish origin.
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That said, no. Feel free to stop reading the comments (and Cringely’s writing, for that matter) if you don’t like it.
Characteristically, you’re being far too charitable Roger. The mixture of death by gas and words of yiddish origin was obviously intentional. Bob must be so proud to have such a man of character come to his defense!
Like it or not folks, this IS the subject under discussion here ever since Cringely’s unfulfilled promises two columns ago to discuss it, and will likely continue to be until he does. What good are the words he writes when he refuses to honor them? You seem easily annoyed, doesn’t that annoy you too? I suppose we’ll all have to resign ourselves to being annoyed at least until the silence is broken.
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Honestly, I’ve been a Cringely fan since the InfoWorld columns when the Cringely part was played by other actors. I’ve read this blog and participated in comments since it was hosted at pbs. I’ve always enjoyed reading his posts, but you know what? I haven’t read this one and probably won’t. I find the subject matter uninteresting. I want to know what happened to the Minerserver project and what’s up with Cringely’s public behavior which has seemed so irresponsible.
Tedious douchebag.
Thank you for your intelligent and enlightening contribution to the conversation. I’m overwhelmed by the unavoidable persuasiveness of your thoughtful argument.
Sort of. I’ve been around at least that long too, and I do like reading his stuff and enjoying the community. He did make some promises and he has not kept his word.
But you know what? This is NOT the topic at hand. You can camp around the thread and keep this fire alight, but if he’s not answering then it isn’t working. If you think this is worth destroying (not abandoning, but actively ruining) something you’ve enjoyed for decades then you and I are very different people. They invested in a Kickstarter project staffed by children, not mutual funds or government bonds. How surprising is it that it failed. ?He had problems with outsourced development and it went into the weeds. He should probably just say “We’re in the 60% Failure category, sorry” and shutter the thing, but I suppose he’s keeping the lights on in case they can deliver anything.
It was Kickstarter, so everyone, Bob especially, needs put that foremost in this discussion meaning it probably wasn’t going to work but you have to be honest with the investors.
The backers and uninvolved readers like you and I shouldn’t have to guess about the project’s status. It’s been heavily promoted by Bob himself in this column, not by his kids. This is 100% Bob’s responsibility, ethically and legally, since his kids aren’t old enough to assume any financial responsibility.
This is the only place they get any response at all. They’re howling into the wind on the Kickstarter project page itself, nobody ever replies to them there (I do mean never, ever) and it’s been months since anything was updated — and that was a promise that shipping was coming soon.
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The whole approach seems designed to make even nice customers go ballistic.
The last posted comment on this subject from the previous column is:
“Freeman February 6, 2017 at 4:00 am – Reply “Like the man said (damn near a month ago), ‘More on that in a few days…’ ”
Even though most of us are not Mineserver backers, we are Cringely fans, and wonder why he doesn’t respond or even keep a promise to respond. That’s a separate and more important issue than the well-known risks associated with any Kickstarter project.
Re: “(there’s a shortage of cheap labor, not labor at a fair price)” I’d agree with that if we just eliminate the last 3 words. The question is who should be included in the determination of a “fair” price. If non-citizens are included, a fair price, determined by supply and demand, would be much lower than if only citizens are included.
Constitutional protections don’t extend to non-citizens, so anyone who opposes Trump’s immigration hold is at best misinformed, and at worst an anti-American shill. Is it any surprise that the Washington State Attorney General is spearheading the charge against it? It’s obvious he’s bought and paid for by the high-tech industry. The good news is, Trump’s DOJ will appeal the decision, and will win. Meanwhile, the media of course will lie relentlessly, as they always do– it will be funny to see how the NY Times manages to twist itself into knots opposing Trump’s upcoming executive order regarding H1-B visas; I guarantee you they’ll play the race card. The good news is, Trump isn’t beholden to corporate interests; everyone in Silicon Valley who matters hates Trump so he couldn’t care less about their opposition, and will do nothing to accommodate them.
Trump is not beholden to corporate interests?!?! Have you looked at his cabinet and staff picks?
Cringely, what about what has already been done? Obama illegally handed out work authorizations for spouses of H1 visa holders. Trump has ended this. That should open up lots of testing jobs.
Nothing illegal about what Obama did. And I must have missed something; when did Trump rescind that order?
On the Mineserver controversy, the bottom line is,
What are Fallon, Cole, and Channing learning from this?
A. That you can take people’s money, mess them around as much as you like, miss deadlines repeatedly, and there will be no consequences. ‘Good intentions’ are a good enough excuse for everything.
I totally get it that:
– creating a minecraft server is a lot more difficult than it seemed at first
– Bob is a journalist, and hasn’t done hands-on product development for decades
– Bob is doing 90% of the work, and the other 10% has to be supervised
– $35k is peanuts to Bob
But… Bob has been writing for decades about startups, venture capitalists, etc. You would at least expect an honest account of his experiences of being in the firing line.
I’ve had a couple of times times in my life where I’ve failed to deliver a product and let clients down, but at least I can say that it’s always been due to genuine health problems, and that I’ve never taken money for something I haven’t delivered.
If these were my kids, I would say to them, “We’ve missed deadlines for two years in a row. We’ve let people down, and we have to stop now. We need to refund the money to all those nice people who contributed, and make a decent video sincerely apologizing and explaining. If you still want to continue and finish this project after that, then great. You can do so, but all your pocket money goes into the project, and you get no pocket money/privileges until it’s finished and shipped. Then you get a share in the profits, after expenses.”
I have been watching the comments on the mine server project. The thought ran through my head that maybe there is some sort of legal issue for which they had to hire a lawyer. Maybe the lawyer advised them not to comment until the issue is resolved. But what the heck do I know? Bob, If this is the reason, please blink twice.
I’d definitely add my vote for weekly updates, even if the updates say, “We have not made any progress this week…”
Blink in Morse code if necessary.
I still agree with the guy that said the MineServers were used for BitCoin Mining. Did Bob finish the SIDs monitor? That seemed like a very worthwhile project.
I have always seen Kickstarter projects in the same way as visiting the casino – win some, lose some – some work and many don’t but there’s a lesson there for everyone. Quite honestly I don’t even think that there’s a column of interest in this – personally, in my own business, I have sunk tens of thousands into good ideas that have never worked out – but some have worked. That’s the nature of business and Kickstarter is no different.
Offhand Bob, I’d like to see the comments section move to a forum where those of us who have zero interest in these trolls could at least mute their posts in our feed – disqus etc. The ability to +1 posts would be nice too.
@Edmund: While I agree with you in any normal case (which this is not) the big difference here being that if you had sunk thousands of dollars of your customer’s money into ideas that didn’t work, then promised them that their product would be delivered to them soon, then just went radio silent for months on end, ignoring any inquiries the customers had while continuing to publicly speak to others about other business, it would annoy your customers and they would question your intentions.
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THAT is what is happening here. No one cares that we haven’t been delivered a product. If it’s done, it’s done, but Cringely promised us we were about a week away from shipping (after stringing us along for a year) then just dropped off the face of the Earth. This is the only place he seems to have a presence anymore so forgive us if we don’t expect just a word or two to put us out of our misery, but thus far he won’t even give us that.
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So here we are, beating down the door. Even your complaints about us being trolls is more of a response than we have ever gotten on the Kickstarter site and sadly it’s more thrilling than hearing nothing and I’ll take what I can get.
I found the explanation of the H1B versus L1 visas very helpful – particularly since I came to the US on an H1B for many years before getting first a Green Card, and then Citizenship.
Thanks – an excellent column (as always), pity about the trolls.
I’m also an investor in the Kickstarter project, and like several others, I went into it knowing there are risks with investing in any project, let alone a crowdsourced one. If the Mineserver comes, it comes; if it doesn’t, well, chalk it up to experience and go pay $2 a month for a hosted service.. And yes, the radio silence is frustrating.
But hey people, the place to bring that up is Kickstarter, not this blog. When the comments section (which many of we loyal readers agree is at least as interesting and useful as Bob’s posts) becomes littered with debate and diatribe and defense of something completely irrelevant to the topic at hand (H1-B’s and other visas), then it risks making the whole site irrelevant.
Perhaps I will start a Kickstarter project to raise funds to refund the lost investment to @AnnoyedBacker, @AnotherAnnoyedBacker, and @RogerSinasohn on condition that they stop polluting the comment section of this blog. Any takers?
@NoTalentHack If we ever received a response from on the Kickstarter site we would have never ventured here. Cringely participates in the comments here. He has NEVER responded to/acknolwedged ONE single comment on the Kickstarter site. He made us the monsters that we have become.
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The day he responded to one of us on this blog saying more on that in a few days was Earth shattering for us. It was the first time he had ever acknowledged any of us and it was in that moment that many of us flocked here and started to flood the streets with our pitchforks.
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Once Cringely has heard our pleas and acknowledged us, we will go away, but thus far he has not. I cannot speak for others but I for one will not leave until he does or until my kids tire of Minecraft, whichever comes first. The ball is in Cringely’s court.
“When the comments section … becomes littered … something completely irrelevant … then it risks making the whole site irrelevant.”
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And that would be an acceptable outcome, as far as I’m concerned. Maybe Cringely’s too much of a noob to have heard this, but there’s an old saying: “Don’t piss off the internet.”
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More realistically, however, I suspect Cringely will realize that this is actually affecting him and he’ll have to address the root issue — a lack of communication over at Kickstarter. If he did that, I, at least, would go away and y’all could have this comments section back.
I used to come here for the blog. Now I come straight to the comments to follow the Mineserver saga. And having followed the whole saga to date (i.e. Not the WHOLE saga, yet) I tend now to be with the trolls.
Good theatre. Bad business.
Amen
@Jim Newkirk
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Please don’t call us trolls since trolls have no purpose besides causing trouble. I prefer to think of us Kickstarter backers as angry villagers with flaming torches and pitchforks,
@Mineserver: This is also how I envision us. Further visualization for those who remain unsure: https://youtu.be/rh98Kscctw4?t=5s
The post prompted further on topic discussion at the link below
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2017/02/cringley-how-silicon-valley-can-sidestep-trump-h-1b-visa-restrictions.html#comments
Mr Cringely, the actual text of a draft executive order is available at Vox. Instead of guessing, why not start with that? The first two draft orders they received, unverified, matched word for word the actual executive orders that were implemented.
I didn’t buy a Mineserver, but I’ve been following the events. You show a lack of empathy with these people when you complain about them showing up in these comment threads. They paid a hundred bucks each or more and at the very least they are owed status updates… it has got to be infuriating to be ignored like this. The lack of communication and what appear to be bald-faced lies surrounding whole affair has been ridiculous. I’m a long-time Cringely reader and fan but I would never trust him with a dime after this.
“The point of this column is to look at this promised Executive Order (a draft of which can be read here), discuss how it might be misinterpreted by the general media, and decide whether it has a chance of actually accomplishing Trump’s stated goal of increasing employment of qualified American citizens.”
With all due respect, Bob, I was very interested in and appreciated the second point of your column, but as far as your first point….its “interpretation” by the general media,” I for one (and I believe I represent the majority of the American people) could no longer give a rat’s patooey about how anything is “interpreted” (i.e. twisted, slanted, and lied about to promote their agenda) by the media.
The 2016 election showed that the reporting mainstream media has no interest whatsoever in the truth…or in reporting the actual news. Their lies, fake news and documented collusion with (and changing their “reporting” to present favorably) their allies is one of the reasons that only 6% of Americans say they trust the press. That means that 94 PERCENT OF AMERICANS DON’T TRUST THE PRESS!
The beauty of Trump is that he is the first President in a long time who is not letting the corrupt media dictate what he should and shouldn’t do. The American people will decide, and more and more (94% of us) are going to alternative sources for our info….including columnists like you. The mainstream reporting media has lied themselves into less and less significance, which will continue to decrease, to the benefit of the truth.
So please keep on doing what you’re doing and give us your analysis of how government decisions affect the tech industry, but please recognize that the mainstream media’s (and that includes Bloomberg) “interpretation” of news is becoming less and less significant to a majority of the American people, and the decision makers. And for good reason
Edward R. Murrow and Ben Bradlee are rolling over in their graves. Today’s media’s “reporting” is a joke.
It’s good that you are relying on multiple sources for your news… and I suspect that it’s always been a prudent practice.
For me, I tend to suspect first the person who’s trying to tell me everyone else is lying to me….
I’m most intrigued by Cringley’s sudden lack of any presence here on the comments. Some speculation on why:
1- All the additional views by mineserver people are helping his viewership #s and everything positive that comes with that.
2- Cringley is hoping this will all go away
Or
3- There is legal action or fear of pending legal action and he was advised by a lawyer not to comment.
My guess is #1 but it’s fun to speculate…
How about ‘The whole kickstarter is a joke and an experiment on the public’?
Hooray! First intelligent comment on this subject.
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You are a fool if you give money to anyone you don’t know personally. And even then you are probably a fool. When you lend, consider it a gift, ’cause it likely ain’t coming back… unless collateral.
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Suck it, chumps. You got scammed. Let that be a (cheap) lesson learned.
“Suck it, chumps. You got scammed. Let that be a (cheap) lesson learned.”
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So what you’re saying is that Cringely is a scammer, a petty thief and cheap con man?
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Perhaps, but I’m still trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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“You are a fool if you give money to anyone you don’t know personally.”
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Well, I don’t know Jeff Bezos personally…
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But having backed a lot of projects on Kickstarter, yes, you’re taking a risk. Not every project is successful and not every project is as good as hoped and, yes, some seem like outright scams. But when they do work out, it’s generally a wonderful thing. I could bore you with tales of wonderful kickstarter projects, but I won’t — I’ll just say look at DoubleSix Dice and Peak Design.
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The thing about Kickstarter or anything else, for that matter, is that you have to decide how much faith and trust you have in someone. The long and the short of it is that Cringely’s reputation was such that I felt the risk was minimal. Turns out I was wrong on that — Cringely’s reputation seems to be wholly undeserved.
There we have it. Observe how low IQ people justify their poor decisions. Pitiful.
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The failure also sounds like this. Someone wins the lottery, or vegas games. I took out massive student loans without determining a market value. I trusted an investment professional instead of taking care of my own affairs. The politician/salesman/nigerian prince sounded so convincing. Someone with a credential/degree/newspaper told me so and I was too lazy to see for myself. And on and on…
Nothing in your commentary reveals anything remarkable about your IQ. I mean, lots of people mistakenly believe employment of ad hominem makes them look smart.
“The failure also sounds like this. Someone wins the lottery, or vegas games. I took out massive student loans without determining a market value. I trusted an investment professional instead of taking care of my own affairs. ”
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I think what you’re saying is that relying solely on the claims of another without doing one’s own due diligence in determining value/success/risk/etc. leads to failure. I would agree wholeheartedly. Sometimes that does happen and people do get burned and, I would agree, the best one can do is to learn from that mistake.
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That is not the situation here. I evaluated the risk — I have some experience in that — and considered how much I could afford to lose. I certainly didn’t mortgage my home to back the project nor will my kids miss out on anything because of it. But, yes, I determined whether or not I could afford to back the project and how likely it was to succeed — either by shipping a product or by providing me with entertainment/education.
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The fact that Cringely is a known quantity did, in my opinion, increase the likelihood of the latter, at the very least, and was indeed a factor in my decision to back the project. So, yes, I misjudged that.
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I would not call that a failure, however. I buy a lot of hard drives. I don’t buy “Bob’s Drive Depot” hard drives; I buy the name brands. Not because those name brands don’t fail but because a) they’re less likely to fail and b) there is a reasonably solid company behind them that I can petition for redress, should they fail. LIkewise, I tend to buy Bloch or Capezio dance shoes because they have a reputation for (and past history of) quality. I felt the Mineserver project was a safer bet than other projects because Cringely was behind it.
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The fact that Cringely is in violation of the TOS of Kickstarter and has taken money from people without fulfilling his part of the deal is certainly not my failure. It’s his.
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Now, I’ve never, ever claimed to be smart. Quite the opposite, in fact. But that doesn’t automatically make me wrong nor does it absolve Cringely of his failure.
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tl;dr: “haha, you’re stupid, so it’s your fault Cringely scammed you, not his!” haha, no.
You could have just bought the finished product (IF THERE EVER WAS ONE).
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Ooops. So simple. Yet so beyond your mental capacity.
My only reprieve from all of this is that we are here in droves and we know Cringely usually responds to the comments on his blog within a few days of posting. So there are three possible outcomes:
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1.) He will respond to us and we’ll get answers (I think we can ALL agree this is the ideal scenario. Heck if he responded on the KickStarter page even better, as it will get us all out of his blog and separation everyone so desperately wants will be made a reality)
2.) He will ignore us (but respond to his readers) and we will come back tenfold, knowing we are purposefully being ignored.
3.) He will ignore us (AND all of his readers who comment) and we’ll have validation that we are purposefully being ignored AND that it’s affecting him as he chooses to now ignore his loyal fan base as well; The darkness has begun to seep into my mechanical heart and this option actually gives me solace, as it adversely affects him….
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Your move, Cringely.
Roger Sinasohn, not everything is about you and mineserver. There is a website dedicated to the mineserver project (as you well know) and it isn’t this one
There used to be good debate on these columns, but not now. Please learn to compartmentalize
You’ve posted three comments so far on this page (one of which I found quite offensive), all of them attacking another commenter, none of them having any more to do with the topic of the OP than those you are criticizing.
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There are people here commenting about the OP and ignoring the Miner-Server issue. They’ve compartmentalized. If good debate is what you really want, why not address them instead?
Why don’t you just fuck off?
(I hope that wasn’t too offensive, dear)
@Dan Baker. Clearly this made you feel better, so hopefully you’ve let off some steam. But I hope you know that such uninspired (dare I say, lazy) declarations like this are pretty immature, and won’t actually be taken seriously. By anyone. And at best just make you a continued target of ridicule. But please do try to read some of the real conversations going on around the Mineserver topic and hopefully understand that no one is here (well, not really) out of malice, but of a simple desire to get some information. About a project that Bob himself has referenced several times on this blog, thus making it fair game by even his standards.
@Dan Baker: Thank you for your intelligent and enlightening contribution to the conversation. I’m overwhelmed by the unavoidable persuasiveness of your thoughtful argument.
hearts and minds, Dan, that is what you are winning here. Well done.
The Mineserver project started on this blog.
https://www.cringely.com/2015/05/13/the-kickstarter-paradox/
https://www.cringely.com/2015/09/29/the-cringely-boys-kickstart-mineserver-a-99-minecraft-server/
Bob, “Using this blog I could promote the crowdfunding campaign and reinforce it. Using my so-called communication skills I could make the video and campaign web page fun to read and compelling. “For you, Bob, it would be easy money.””
The entire process has been through this blog. The Kickstarter page never used Bob’s communication skills. It is his radio silence and lack of communication that is driving us.
@Dan Baker — I used to have a modicum of respect for Cringely, but not now.
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Sure, the correct and proper protocol would be for Mineserver discussions to happen on the project page at Kickstarter, Unfortunately, Cringely has been absent from that venue, so those of us interested in following up on the status of the project have followed him here. Feel free to compartmentalize and ignore the Mineserver comments if you so desire.
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As for being offensive, well, that’s entirely your right (for now, anyway) and I fully support that. However, it is also my right to judge you based on what you say and do and, in all honesty, I find your coments indicative of someone whose opinions and thoughts are not worth considering. So, as far as I’m concerned, you can fuck off.
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Not everything is about me or the Mineserver, that’s true, but at this point, *nothing* is about you.
Have got a dissertation to write and wondering how to write it because you have never done it before? Is the dissertation writing giving you nightmares of not scoring a good grade if you write the dissertation on your own? Is the time or other priorities constraining you from writing your assignment? Are there any other difficulties with your dissertation or assignment writing and do not know what to do? In addition, Bisaccio asked students to write what had challenged them most as a learner, what had stretched their limits most — meant to be reflections just for students themselves, and asked to be kept on the back of the map. “What they wrote on the back was not shared with others,” he said. Once the assignment was completed, maps were posted to form a class atlas of what they had learned. Write a 1,050- to 1,400-word paper that applies the principles presented by Hardina et al. to your ideal human service organization. case study writing service*Community refers to a social, religious, occupational, or other group sharing common characteristics or interests and perceived or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists…a school, children’s school, church, extended family, workplace etc. * OK, that’s one of my biggest bugaboos: math probability. I accept it as evidence that some things may occur, other things may occur occasionally, to some things will never occur at all. Take the number 10^8 the estimated number of molecules in the universe I don’t know who counted them, a very big number. To a human, I would call it representing infinity although of course we realize that’s not so. It is acceptable to many that no one would bet their life within 10^80 odds. Yet, in everything we see we’re surrounded by such ‘miracles’ … the question is whether they are accidents or engineered? If you created a computer screen big as the USA, and filled it with the ‘odds’ of such and such occurring, it would be filled easily, even writing as tiny as this. Eg. the chance formation for protein molecule with 20 amino acids that must line up perfectly:in 10^128. That’s just part of creating a molecule. And molecules have in reality at least 50 ‘links’ some 1000. A DNA molecule has 186,000 ‘links.’ Can something in ‘nature’ natural selection, etc. account for that? If so, how? This collection of tips from film-industry insiders will help you to shoot and share better travel videos. PLUS – Our talented shortlisted applicants receive a copy too!
Meanwhile, while all of us kids squabble, dad (Cringely) is watching from the comfort of his lazy boy, beer in hand, with a grimace on his face – able to end all of this if he could just muster enough energy to get up off his butt and address us.
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and yet there he sits, unmoving…
There are two reasons for that: First, Apple’s goal is to use the cameras for FaceTime, its video-call application. Still photo quality seems to be unimportant (or too expensive) at the moment. That’s too bad because in such a relatively large body, there was probably a way to use much better optics. Pixologic ZBrush 4R7 Freeman, Christopher (1968): Chemical Process Plant : Innovation and the World Market. In National Institute Economic Review, 45 (1) pp. 29-51
The discussion above from some of the other comments and Horace have helped clarify this issue for me. (Thanks!) Autodesk AutoCAD MEP 2017 We would like to thank the Clinical Learning and Simulation Centre at Memorial University’s Faculty of Medicine for their support. The work is supported through the MUN MED 3D initiative, and the Teaching and Learning Fund at Memorial University. Article Information DOI
If you’re going to keep making this claim, show us the line that says they own the content (as opposed to the output (what the agreement calls “The Work”)). CorelDRAW Graphics Suite X5 All Brookings scholars, exercising their right to academic freedom, decide which policy issues they will research and how they will contribute to the public policy debate. Corporations and other donors do not determine what the scholars study, which scholars conduct the research, what methodology is employed, or what conclusions are reached.
Although Bob’s original article is as interesting, thought provoking, and as informative as usual, judging from the previous 3 spam posts, plus all the Mineserver stuff, it looks like Bob just wants to stuff the comments section. Of course, spam is getting more challenging to fight, but there’s no excuse for the Mineserver situation.
Another possibility with the mineserver, perhaps one of the boys got angry and burned the entire supply?
Or all of the units have self destructed. The motherboard batteries were inserted over a year ago and the cases were then glued shut so they can’t easily be replaced.One of the many unanswered questions is what is the projected lifetime of the units.
If I may risk such a serious breach of etiquette as to post a comment that is on the topic of the original posting, the “tell” in all of this was Franklin Graham’s comment about how knowledge-worker jobs are not real jobs.
Re: “Franklin Graham’s comment about how knowledge-worker jobs are not real jobs.” Have you got a link to that comment?
I realize many of you are angry about the Minecraft server thing. But, it’s unproductive to read just comment after comment about something I could really care less about. What was Cringely promising with this anyways? My 21 year loaded Ubuntu on a Raspberry PI 3 and had Minecraft running on it in less than 3 hours. The problem isn’t that, it’s the networking issues of letting others into your network. There is always risk with that. And Bob cannot possibly manage every possible network configuration. What was promised here originally? Can someone send me the Kickstarter link?
Miner-Server Kickstarter link.
On the H1B thing. First of all AUTOMATION is reducing low end jobs in this country, not H1B people. Understand that large global companies will look for and find the “cheapest viable” labor force to do the jobs. If H1Bs are taken away then large companies will just increase their software workforces overseas and move those jobs out of the US. The problem is that we have a poorly educated electorate that is angry with the establishment, who are seeing that the American Dream does not work for them. “Make America Great Again” plays super well in middle America and middle class America. The Donald has decided to exploit that misplaced anger and play the nationalism card and “keep his promises”. If he wins, we will become North Korea or Iran. If I didn’t have so many living elderly relatives (who voted for the man), I would have already moved to Europe or Australia.
Yes, automation and robots probably will keep wiping out low income jobs. One solution I see is for people to start their own low-cost, low-risk sideline ventures. Another solution might be to join a group that raises their own food and has various skills in the group to provide many of life’s other necessities. A third idea is to change your needs and desires so your life can be enjoyable with a much lower standard of living. A fourth idea is to take advantage of recent changes, such as the legalization of marijuana in many US states.
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How’s that for a change from mineserver comments?
amen !
I need 5 years to get two more kids through college. The oldest graduates in May. The middle one in 2 years with a bachelors, but she will need a Master’s Degree because she’s an arts major. The youngest still in High School killing it in Academic Decathalon and AP classes. One and 1/3 years of High School and he’s out in the college world. Once they are in their adult lives, then that is exactly what we plan to do. Simplify, have a smaller home, have everything paid for in cash. And then maximize the earnings until big business decides that I’m “too old to work”. Then it will be Entrepreneurship time (and I’ve already read a lot of books and even took a college course at SMU). And I have some super ideas, which will probably already be done in 5 years, but I will come up with new ones… You can’t automate creativity and the human touch.
TXIBMer,
Sounds like you have things under control. If you would like some more ideas along those lines, you might want to read my website by clicking on my name.
Hey Bob,
I saw this link in a post on slashdot. It’s to a study that purports to show that US programmers would have had 11% better employment and 5% higher wages but for the H1B program. FYI.
https://www.nber.org/papers/w23153?utm_campaign=ntw&utm_medium=email&utm_source=ntw
My buddy at my former employer – Wipro – a few weeks ago told me that he had been asked to train an offshore resource his duties…sure enough he was laid off last week, along with several others. This type of bullshit is why I decided to make them my former employer, and why I don’t trust them.
We need to severely curtail these visas, raise the employer fee, and ‘encourage’ the employers to buy American. They complain about not having a sufficient pool of candidates, but then do nothing to help train any of the tens of thousands of highly technical and otherwise highly qualified workers looking for a job.
You wonder why there’s enough frustration out there to elect Donald Trump? It’s because the true unemployment rate is far above the reported 4%…
Bloomberg is so hostile to trump I don’t think he’ll listen to them. The bigger issue is he can only do so much. Congress makes the law. Probably will be some ex order but then on the back burner until the next election. The dems need to pick up on it. It also ties into NAFTA and trade.
I’ve dealt with these Indian companies. I have a hearing loss and they’re hard to understand. Once I tell them that they cut me off. No more emails, no interview. They’ve injected themselves into the hiring process so they decide which american gets hired at american companies. In my case Nike and Intel.
Last year i had an interview with Nordstrom that came to an abrupt end. I couldn’t figure out why. I googled myself and found comments I made about h1b ten years ago. Someone pulled them out. So I contacted cringely. Pbs took down all comments from his site.
Interesting Nordstrom and Nike both came out against Trump and his immigration order. He hasn’t really responded to that yet. He could hit back hard, but he wants the economy to do well.
Interesting info on the L1 visa. I have seen someone join IBM India and work on a software development project for a year then move to the USA. All of the team they worked with were based in the USA. At the same time someone in their role retired.
I guess they were using the L1 visa rather than the H1B.
What do you have to say about Dr. Michio Kaku’s claim that 50% of the tech sector PhD candidates and 100% of his PhD candidates aren’t American; that Silicon Valley itself simply wouldn’t exist without the “Genius Visa”?
Awesome you should think of sontehimg like that
Things are more clear with this article
Does merit based visas mean more h1b ?
https://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/02/28/trump-reform-white-collar-immigration/
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mUZhKag2dN8
Hello mates, its enormous paragraph on the topic of tutoringand entirely defined, keep it up all the time.
http://financepoints.eu
There is a lot of misinformation going on in the media, it oversimplifies and tries to get you to think what THEY want you to think. I am glad that you are clearing it up and giving your point of view here.
I applaud this, I’ve been ranting about this since the results were known. It’s gotten to the point that a cousin deleted me from Facebook from saying simply what happened. I understand pain and sadness but I don’t understand this “vieja de Altamira” irrational behaviour.