President Putin of Russia has been talking a lot lately about his forces using nuclear weapons — presumably tactical nuclear weapons — in the war with Ukraine. It’s an easy threat to make but a difficult one to follow-through for reasons I’ll explain here in some detail. I’m not saying Mr Putin won’t order nuclear strikes. He might. Dictators do such things from time to time. But if Mr Putin does push that button, I’d estimate there is perhaps a 20- percent chance that nukes will be actually launched and a 100 percent chance that Mr. Putin will end that day with a bullet in his brain.
Given that I don’t think Mr. Putin really wants a bullet in his brain, my goal here is to lay out facts and probabilities to show how nuking Ukraine would be a huge mistake for Putin and Russia. With the facts thus presented and presumably repeated by many people in many venues, that information will quickly reach everyone in positions to make such a nuclear war NOT happen. But without essays like this one, that education and intervention is much less likely. So I am writing this as a public service. Pass it on.
What do I know? I worked as an investigator for the Presidential Commission on the Accident at Three Mile Island in 1979. Part of my portfolio then was to study the Federal Emergency Management Agency’s response to that nuclear accident, which was pathetic.
TMI was FEMA’s first big crisis as FEMA. Most of the agency had been called Civil Defense until a short time before TMI. Their idea of nuclear safety (remember the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, not FEMA, actually regulates the reactors) had been tracking clouds of predicted fallout from Russian nuclear attacks driven by prevailing winds and coming up with plans to move civilians out of the way of those clouds. In the northeast USA around Three Mile Island, the old Civil Defense plans called for moving 75 million people in 72 hours — an impossible task, then or now.
Think about that task for a moment. In Ukraine so far it has taken three weeks — not three days — to move THREE million people. And this is before any nukes have dropped.
The simple lesson here is that nobody is going to have time to move out of the way of tactical nukes.
If you are wondering what the damage of such a limited nuclear war would look like, the Chernobyl nuclear accident from 1986 provides a pretty good example, since that disaster site lies between Kiev and Russia and Belarus. Above you’ll find a map showing the Cesium 137 fallout from Chernobyl. If you want to know what bombing Kiev would do, just move the Chernobyl spot down and a little to the right and see where the blotches fall.
But tactical nukes aren’t a nuclear accident, you say, the map would be different. Yes, it would be BIGGER. Chernobyl melted DOWN while bomb and missile and artillery fallout bounce UP into the atmosphere and spread much farther.
Most of the fallout of a Kiev attack, in fact, would land in Russia. The cities of Bryansk (427,000 population), Kaluuga (338,000), Kursk (409,000), Orel (324,000), and Tula (468,000) would all be hit, not by weapon strikes, but by fallout. That’s just under two million people exposed in those five cities, not counting folks in the countryside between.
Two million is approximately the population of Kiev, or was before a lot of those people fled west.
We can estimate civilian deaths from radiation, from heat, from atmospheric over-pressure, but I’ll just jump here to the bottom line that about one million Russians would die from such a nuclear attack, both directly and through greatly increased cancer deaths in later years.
So a nuclear attack on Kiev would kill more Russians than Ukrainians.
Moving the attack to, say, Odessa would kill more Ukrainians, but it would completely destroy the Ukrainian agricultural economy for a century and still kill tens of thousands of Russians.
Now consider the supposed military justification for such an attack. Ukraine clams to have killed 15,000 Russian soldiers while Russia says its losses are more like 1500. I don’t care which number is correct because Putin killing one million of his own people to avenge 1500 or 15,000 deaths makes no sense.
He’s just whining.
The Russians are not evacuating those five cities, so Putin is either willing to lose a million Russian citizens or he has no real intention of launching nukes.
I’m guessing it’s a bluff.
And what if it isn’t a bluff? What if Putin actually goes ahead and pushes that button saying — as bullies are wont to do — “Look what you made me do.”
IF Putin pushes that button, it will set in motion a series of very quick events as half a dozen nations take action not against Russia, but against Putin personally. Navy SEALS and Chinese commandos will fall from the sky, but Putin will already be dead, killed by his own people, whether any nukes are actually launched or not.
Look what he made them do.
this is probably the most irresponsible thing you have ever written and you have written a lot of stupid things.
but this takes the cake. perhaps like Putin you are starting to lose it.
Who says Putin would nuke Ukraine and not somewhere further west?
Okay, Peter Eller,
Enlighten us (and Robert Cringely, too) as to why he’s being irresponsible in writing this article. Assuming that all of it is factual and not based on rumor or anecdotal stories, what’s irresponsible here? Pretty sure that Putin knows this but doesn’t care and Lord knows that the US Government knows but doesn’t care; they’ll just find a way to blame it on the Orange Man…
The article is only “irresponsible” in the sense that it’s poorly thought out and doesn’t present a helpful analysis of a serious situation.
Also, nobody cares about the Orange Man any more. He’s ancient history at this point.
He’s being irresponsible because he’s making it sound like an escalation from NATO would not be a problem. The only thing keeping NATO from directly engaging here is the threat of nuclear weapons. By claiming that it wouldn’t happen, Cringely’s saying that there’s no negative to NATO intervening. But there is. Putin could still launch a nuclear weapon against Ukraine, even if it would hurt Russia… that’s what this entire war already is. And he could launch a nuclear weapon at a country further away from Russia.
No part of his argument changes the actual calculus for whether NATO should get more directly involved in the fighting. If it convinces people that it does change the calculus, and tips more people towards thinking NATO should attack, that’s irresponsible.
“I’m not saying Mr Putin won’t order nuclear strikes. He might. Dictators do such things from time to time.” The only country that has used nuclear weapons in warfare is the United States. Hiroshima & Nagasaki.
Damn straight we nuked the fuck out of them. They had it coming.
Had they not attacked Pearl Harbor, you fuckin dolt, Hiroshima and Nagasaki’s fatalities would not have happened.
So fuck you and your stupid comment!
> So a nuclear attack on Kiev would kill more Russians than Ukrainians.
If Mr. Putin was worried about Russians suffering, then he’d already know that it’s already happening. Since long time now as the country’s low GDP is expended too much on warfare than on common people needs.
Mr. Putin doesn’t care about Russians. He cares about himself, his power and his concept of “the Greater Russian Empire”. He’s a dictator, in the end, isn’t he?
He knows Russia’s main weight within international relationships is only due to raw material markets and the ability to launch nuclear weapons. Still a GDP the size of Belgium and the Netherlands together. But with 5 times more people and much more military expenditures.
So he simply doesn’t care about Russians.
“Two little Hitler’s will fight it out, until one little hitler does the other one’s will.” – Elvis Costello
Where dictators are concerned rationality is always suspect. It really just comes down to the nature of the dictator.
Throughout the first half of 1941 the British kept warning Stalin that Hitler was getting ready to attack them. One of the accounts I read, a long, long time ago (so I can’t remember the source) said that Stalin was convinced that Hitler was not planning to attack him.
Why you might ask?
Simple; the price of wool on the international commodities market had not seen any kind of price spikes do to increase in demand for wool. Yes, Communist understand economics and capitalism (if you believe the definition of Capitalism is the system whereby money is used to make money – Stalin used “capital” and state directed “capitalism” to industrialize Russia. [he bought grain from the farms at low prices, sold the grain for high prices and used the profits to pay for the factories he built]).
Anyway, the account I recall reading said that Stalin figured no dictator in his right mind would send his own army, his own countrymen into Russia unequipped for a Russian winter – which would include manufacturing millions of wool coats. No spike in the price of wool in 1940-41 meant Germany wasn’t serious about invading Russia.
As it turned out, Hitler figured to have Russia conquered long before Winter set in (which is usually in October there) which is why he and his general staff didn’t bother preparing for the invasion by ordering up 3 million wool coats for his 3million man army. Or it might be Hitler just didn’t give a damn about the ordinary German soldier.
My point, is Bob’s reasoning is correct, Nukes (tactical or otherwise) and the Chemical weapons pose a threat to Russia and the value of the land of Ukraine should Putin still win there – but it doesn’t mean he won’t do either or both, because dictators are temperamental, irrational, and generally don’t care about anything else but themselves.
For the record, I believe this war ends if the Army rebels, either masses or soldiers just quit, or commanders surrender or change sides or the general either change sides or make an offer that Putin cannot refuse.
It’s possible that Putin could have won in the first month. Now no matter what kind of victory he scratches out, politically he’s wounded, like the antelope on the Serengeti plains, he’s going to attract attacks from any other wouldbe Hitler’s in the Russian political establishment. He probably couldn’t abdicate anywhere safe at this point now either, as he’s an international war criminal. So going nuclear has little cost to him.
The point would not be to kill Ukrainians or Russians (both of which Mr Putin cares little about), but to end a conflict Russia is not exactly winning at the moment. There are good reasons why nukes might not be used (like, what’s the point of adding a radioactive wasteland to your empire?), but, OTOH, a radioactive wasteland will likely not be the threat that Mr Putin pretends it currently is.
One fact that you have just plain wrong. Even though Chernobyl was indeed a “meltdown” it resulted in an unprotected fire of the melting pile that spewed nuclear material into the atmosphere for more than ten days, arguably releasing far, far more radiation than a single tactical nuclear weapon would.
Hiroshima, for example, only had 46kg of fissile material to release, Chernobyl had 180 tons of nuclear fuel to burn and release.
A single tactical nuke with a few kg of fissile material, would release much, much less into the atmosphere than Chernobyl or Hiroshima did.
I agree this was a very irresponsible post to make.
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What does Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) know? To know that you have to go back in time to where he began. He was a press officer on an investigation. Stop and think about that. A press officer not an investigator. He worked as a gossip columnist not a journalist. Stop and think about that. The skillsets and level of integrity and fact checking are completely different. This is a man with a record of lying about his credentials, theft of trademarks and even on his own blog theft of copyright photographs, and who boasts about frequently being wrong and gets a narcissistic buzz off the attention, and some would say theft of money off his own subscriber base with broken promises over Mineserver. Where is the update?
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Mark Stephens lists a lot of “facts”. It’s the other facts he is missing and not explaining which matter more. The missing part of the iceberg.
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Militarily the war is about the geography. I got that from top US generals with combat experience.
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Military capability is about organsiation, morale, and equipment. I got that from pretty much every former senior NATO officer going as well as a video I watched ages ago containing comment by the current C.O. of the UK’s Royal Marines.
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It has been estimated that in a conventional war between NATO and Russia that Russia would last six hours. The potential threat of nuclear weapons is real. I got that off a former Nato deputy commander of Europe.
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It’s important not to escalate or make wrong moves which lead to escalation. I basically got that off the current NATO secretary general.
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Russia is now a totalitarian state under Putin. The checks and balances which used to exist no longer exist. The use of nuclear weapons may not be a rational decision. I got that of basically everyone from a former top level intelligence analyst down, and everyone across the board.
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From a command decision point of view nukes are all about military strategy. Source: Defence policy analysts and one of Putin’s old colleagues.
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The command stucture of the Kremlin on downwards is a bit peculiar. Whether nukes are used and how long Putin keeps his job is dependent on that. Putin only cares about Putin. I got that from someone who had worked with Putin as a top advisor directly with him for years. I got that from someone who had worked with Putin as a top advisor directly with him for years. In fact I only just watched an interview with that man last night after putting it off for a week.
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At the height of the Cold War via the Soviet Union Russia controlled 9% of world GDP. Today it is 3%. Source: a former top advisor to Putin plus Google. You can check it yourself.
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Western (mostly NATO specification) military forces are more advanced than Russias. Russia has technical challenges and strategies which shape its military strategy. They lack precise targeting so resort to dropping dumb bombs. They lack the quality of equipment and forces to engage hence standoff weapons. Russia has not fought a large scale operation since WWII. It’s major military engagement basically involve pounding cities into the ground including civilians from a distance. Russia has used chemical weapons more than once. I got that off pretty much everyone from experts who work for Jane’s through to military people to a range of sources from people who worked with Putin to open source intelligence.
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Javalin and NLAW especially have been very effectively deployed by the Ukrainians. Coincidentally, the UK has just announced Challenger 3. It has a new turret and an extra tonne of Chobham armour over previous tanks. (I don’t think that is a coincidence. Like, UK military wants its tanks to go pop because the Russians copied captured anti-tank weapons? I think not.) Source: UK defence minister and Forces News among others.
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Putin has an alternative form of morality and only cares about himself. Source: Former KGB officer who knew Putin.
Everything I have written up to this point is subject to fact checking and the fog of war so don’t use it as a definitive statement to begin planning your life.
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Basically, in a direct conventional war between NATO and Russia the Russians will collapse like a house of cards. The use of nukes is a real threat. They’re not toys and can be used tactically against conventional forces or as a terror weapon. With the amount of material and support Ukraine is receiving it is possible Russia will lose the war in the short term and highly unlikely Russia will lose the war in the long term especially as every single Ukrainian hates the invading forces guts. Putin has effectively lost the war and very likely we are talking about the end of Putin’s regime and the end of the kind of Russia Putin created. The real battle is for the hearts and minds of the Russian people and what kind of Russia they want.
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If everyone is wondering where that came from I’m an escort (aka prostitute, hooker, tart, sex worker) and we’re just getting over a pandemic so I have time on my hands.
Don’t forget about the neutron bomb. Or the neutron dance.
Bad typo in comment. Correction: With the amount of material and support Ukraine is receiving it is possible Russia will lose the war in the short term and highly unlikely Russia will win the war in the long term especially as every single Ukrainian hates the invading forces guts.
That’s not entirely true.
The folks in the DPR don’t like the Ukrainian government.
They want to return to Russia.
And. Don’t be fooled.
Biden’s Butchers aka the Ukrainian AZOV Battalions are doing exactly what their idols, the NAZI Einsatzgruppen had done.
Check out Patrick Lancaster’s YouTube Channel.
Don’t believe everything you read.
https://i.imgur.com/OgiQw9k.jpg
I didn’t notice the Photoshop at first. Very nicely done.
Is it possible that we misunderstood?
Maybe Bob bought all the rights to the PHOTOGRAPHS of the aircraft?
It’s funny, but in reality Bob didn’t even do that. He stole the photograph used as a header in his Not dead yet! What Bob Cringely has been up to post and Photoshopped it to look like he had actually purchased a single F-104. Then he lied and said he had bought all the F-104s in the world. I will never get over the sheer audacity of this lie.
For reference: https://www.cringely.com/2020/01/23/not-dead-yet-what-bob-cringely-has-been-up-to/
I guess depending on what type of nukes. If used them you can’t really use the land until it goes back to being safe. So if you want to conquer and control the land nukes are not the way to go.
Two nukes used on more densely populated Japan didn’t kill millions and destroy Japaneses agriculture for a century.
Population of Japan 1945: 71,998,104
Population of Japan 2022: 126,226,568
Did any of you not read a history book?
We chose those targets due to their wartime mission. Their population was a factor but not the target.
And yeah, you know, they started it, we ended it. Saved over a million of our boy’s lives if we had attacked the home island.
So honestly? I don’t fucking care about WW2 Japan and still don’t care about Japan today. They’re nothing but a speed bump in the China Sea States if China decides to go 100% full of fucktardery.
Tactical nukes can have a blast radius as small as the size of a city block. Larger modern strategic warheads can be dialed to maximum yield or a low yield.
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This is one document on small tactical nukes. I’m sure there are others.
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https://doh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/legacy/Documents/Pubs//320-088_nucwpdet_fs.pdf
Nuclear Weapon Detonation
July 2002
Fact Sheet 320-088
Division of Environmental Health
Washington State Department of Health
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According to a former Kremlin insider the traditional solutions for Russian leaders they want to remove are: A.) Retirement to a dacha. B.) Retirement to a hole in the ground. Given the current situation and the fact the West will require deep penance for human rights crimes they also said another option is likely: C.) Hand Putin over to war crime prosecutors.
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From the same former Kremlin insider: There is no “button” for Putin to push. The order has to go through other people. Morale among the military is already low. Attacking Ukrainian people with nukes may not wash with the generals who would also dislike their pensions going up in a puff of smoke.
Yeah, but I prefer Thermobarics…oh…yeah…they’re…a bit more fun on the fuck you side to me.
And, they have no radiation aftermath.
I’m reasonably certain that Putin will use a small tactical nuclear missile sometime this year on Mariupol’, Ukraine.
There are a lot of different views on this. Today I read this article:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/smaller-bombs-could-turn-ukraine-114147827.html
Yesterday, Mark Stevens wrote the most important article of his career. There are parts of it I think are correct. The other parts I can only wish are correct – but, probably not.
I have never purchased beans and rice in anticipation of a major disaster.
I have never kept a pile of cash at home – just in case.
I have never purchased gold as a last resort safe haven.
But, when Russia invaded Ukraine, everything changed. I do think there is a possibility that our lives are going to be completely different very soon. In ways we have never experienced.
When the first tactical nuclear weapon launches, things will be different.
I love me some bean casserole.
Oh, you think that’s good? Try some Veal and Venison Brats!
The premise of the article is that Putin will use nukes in Ukraine. He won’t. He can grind it out with the Ukrainians by starving the people and destroying their cities into eventual submission by the government. This is inevitable. No reason to use nukes.
The threat to use nukes is on NATO countries by turning the US and its empire of lies to dust. That is the real possibility. This article is totally off base.
W Smith,
With all due respect, I think a lot of intelligent analysts are thinking that Putin will not be able “grind it out”.
Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is very different than the siege of Ramadi in Iraq.
In my opinion, Putin will not be able to take Mariupol’ unless he uses a nuclear missile.
The only other possibility is if Ukraine lets Putin take Mariupol’ for some tactical reason – which I don’t see happening – but, I may be wrong.
So much for your prediction. Mariupol has been taken.
The most surprising responses in the comments are the ones who voice that oft-used adult voice of “It’s irresponsible to talk about it.” I was encouraged that the administration chose to talk about Putin’s plans ahead of time, perhaps a new way to look at the world.
Second most surprising responses is that some people claimed X said Putin will use the weapons, when the actual article said the opposite. I guess that’s what happens in doom-scrolling mode.
Third most surprising impression came because I still haven’t seen a reference to Minecraft.
“We don’t talk about Bruno”
John Light,
I agree.
Thinking “we should not talk about nuclear war in Ukraine” is ridiculous.
Current US strategists have already decided what will happen if Putin launces a nuclear missile at Ukraine.
Many analysts (many of them working for the US government) are estimating about 90 million people will die if/when Putin launces that nuclear missile (that includes the launching of several missiles by both Russia and NATO).
The only thing that is a little funny in that it is not being published – is which Russian city will be targeted for nuclear bomb retaliation. My guess is that the NATO nuclear retaliation will not take place in Russia – but, against the Russian military in Ukraine. This would align with the Biden administration’s strategy of using the least escalating tactics.
My guess is that NATO will use tactical nuclear missiles developed under the Obama administration that were designed to be able to be “dialed down” as low as 3 kilotons (of TNT) and were re-designed to be much more accurate than they were previously under the Bush administration.
I was talking to my investment analyst this morning. He commented that the current market is unbelievably heavy cash. Much of the US financial markets are betting that there is a good probability of a nuclear war.
Simply ..
IF Putin uses a nuke
DO NOT RESPOND – be “terrorised” but, get as many people you can find, who have nothing left to lose ( There won’t be a shortage ) and GET Putin – someone will get through.
Is Putin sane enough to recognise this – if yes, then he won’t do it.
If no, then we have nothing left to lose, either
> Thinking “we should not talk about nuclear war in Ukraine” is ridiculous.
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You’re missing the point. Cringely’s post is basically, “Don’t worry about nuclear war, Putin would never do it.” That’s what’s irresponsible to say.
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No one’s saying “Don’t talk about the possibility that nuclear war could actually happen with this conflict.” They’re saying, “Don’t say it won’t happen”.
“Third most surprising impression came because I still haven’t seen a reference to Minecraft.”
There are thousands of people on the internet who think they can armchair-quarterback pretty much any topic that comes up and many do it much better than Crookely. Personally, I don’t care what a washed-up hack of a “journalist” (really, just an amusing buffoon) from the tech industry has to say about world politics.
The only reason I visit this site any more is to see if Crookely has found the cajones to address his failures and to read some of the more interesting off-topic comments.
But, yeah, it’s been a while since he took a lot of folks’ money and didn’t even live up to the most basic obligations for doing so.
He doesn’t have cajones? What does his furniture have to do with it? (“Cajones” means drawers in Spanish, the kind of drawers you keep your socks in. You probably meant “cojones” – with an “o”.)
@John Light, the reason the first few commenters always post surprising and/or nonsensical comments is because Cringely always posts these things in the middle of the night, when most of the usual commenters are asleep (trashtalk excepted, but you can’t cover all time zones)
I don’t actually have much to say about Cringely’s latest post. The only real argument he makes is that Putin won’t use nukes because he doesn’t want Russian lives to be lost. But if he actually cared about Russian lives, he wouldn’t have started the war in the first place!
As for Mineserver, don’t worry, I’ll post an updated timeline.
A short history of Mineserver:
2015
September 29: Mineserver announced
October 21: Mineserver Kickstarter campaign closes
December 14: “All these Mineservers will ship this week”
2016
January 28: “Better late than never! 425 units burned in and ready to go”
March 17: “Sorry to have gone so long without an update. We won’t do THAT again.”
November 10: “We’ll finally start shipping the week after Thanksgiving.” LAST POST EVER ON KICKSTARTER
2017
May 22: “This is our 25th update on the Mineserver project. That’s a lot of updates for people who don’t do enough updates.
May 22: “The pitch must have worked, because we’ve found just enough investors to move on to the next level, which is shipping our current orders.”
2018
May 21: “Every supporter will get their Mineserver before the end of the year.”
2019
January 28: “We have a good product and a great marketing plan… if it weren’t for those darned pitchforks.”
2020
January 23: “So unless YOU want to step up, that means I will have to earn the matching money on my own, which is what I have been trying to do with my other startup, Eldorado Space.”
2021
January 15: “The last of these prediction columns will be an update on my Mineserver project that, but that will be 7-10 days from now.”
March 21: “My next column will be, believe it or not, a book review, which is something I don’t do very often but this book is important. And the column after that will be my long awaited Mineserver update.”
August 20: Posts Book Review.
September 10: Reposts 9/11 post from 2001.
2022
March 7: Posts ridiculous, nonsensical, fantasy scenario about a massive airlift to Ukraine.
March 22: Posts poorly thought-out prediction that Putin won’t nuke Ukraine.
For those unfamiliar with Kickstarter, it’s not a store. You’re not purchasing something. You’re contributing to try and make something happen. Now, sometimes, you get something out of it — a CD, a game, a deck of cards, a Mineserver — but that’s not guaranteed.
What *is* supposed to be guaranteed is updates of what’s happening with the project — good and bad — and, if it is ultimately unsuccessful, an accounting of what went wrong and where the money went. All this is supposed to happen *on the kickstarter website* not on the creator’s website.
This is where Crookely has failed — he basically ghosted all of his backers except for the handful that bother to come here to see if they can get some answers.
As a superbacker, the Mineserver project is not the only one that didn’t deliver or even the only one that ghosted its backers. It is, however, the only one that was hyped by a minor celebrity. It is the only one where the creator had the audacity to blame his failures on the backers. The only one that has spiraled into lie after lie (think F-104) trying to cover up.
A fool and his money…
. . . are some party!
COMBOBREAKER ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl_Eo2QzqU4
Bob,
Thanks for the essay.
Oh wow. Even I choked on the amount of information coming out of the Ukrainian war. Maybe it’s hormones but I want to be in a lighter mood. I’ve had far too much stress lately. My mind has been wandering to pinch makeup and clothes ideas of the bazillion women news presenters. Satin does seem to be in. i don’t wear a lot of satin but when I do I love it. It just has a certain effect. It feels nice and look nice. It’s that shimmering swelling in the right places cascade which I think does it.
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The discussion on nukes is getting quite serious at the moment according to informed expert discussions I’ve been watching. There is a reason why they are experts and Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) is not. His having only been a press officer on an investigation not an investigator is one reason…
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As for red lines Putin has crossed multiple human rights abuse red lines and I’ve picked up hints from various people outside of the NATO decision loop that they are exploring various strands of thought which may push back against Russian threats. I was surprised when point of view was confirmed by a former ambassador to the Ukraine. It’s very delicate and not currently core NATO thinking at the moment or necessarily of countries operating individually outside the remit of NATO he said looking from the outside. I expect the what, how, and when is a delicate matter. The reason is any pushback will most likely have to be of a form which informs Russian military and intelligence of intent in a way which gives them something to think about when making decisions about responding and gets past the censorship from the top by the totalitarian Putin. This kind of strategy was used to some degree during WWII when fighting the Nazis given decision makers in the hierarchy were known or suspected to be anti-Nazi. It’s possible the right signalling can speak with those in the Russian apparatus who have their doubts about the path Putin took Russia down.
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But like I said I’m just a hooker. Okay, not “just” a hooker but you know what I mean. Boys missiles and sending signals is my stock in trade so I know something about this. If it all goes well or heads south I’m fucked either way.
Looking for data that relates to Cringely’s post – I see nothing that supports that the nuclear fallout issue is currently in play.
But, the more I study that issue the more I am beginning to think Cringely may have hit on a substantive aspect of NATO and Russian planning.
I will not be surprised if the subject of nuclear fallout from Ukraine to Russia becomes an issue in the news very soon.
[…] Here’s why Putin won’t use nukes in Ukraine — Pass it on. | I, Cringely […]
Mark Stephen’s (aka Cringely) is in breach of Kickstarter T&C’s. It would be interesting to hear a lawyers opinion on the contract between Mark Stephens and his backers. Kickstarter sells itself as an introduction service but this doesn’t negate contract law does it? It’s just Kickstarter’s way of avoiding liability. That doesn’t mean any obligation in law between Mark Stephens and his backers has gone away.
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This is an interesting essay on UK and EU law on the subject. I have no idea what US law has to say on the matter.
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https://blogs.nottingham.ac.uk/allconsuminginterests/2015/11/17/crowdfunding-and-the-consumer/
@trashtalk, you’re correct that Kickstarter’s terms and conditions don’t necessarily override contract law. It’s just that almost nobody is ever sued over it.
Almost nobody. The infamous Doug Monahan of the failed iBackpack Kickstarter campaign is being sued by the Federal Trade Commission in the US:
“The agency claims Monahan took his backpack funds and spent them on “personal expenses,” including bitcoin purchases, ATM withdrawals, and credit card debt. The agency says he threatened backers who pursued him for their bags. The state of Texas is suing him, too.”
https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/4/21156136/ibackpack-smart-backpack-kickstarter-indiegogo-crowdfunding-scam-investigation-ftc-doug-monahan
Now, the thing is, Cringely is very much small fry compared to Monahan. I highly doubt the FTC would ever bother with Mineserver. But sometimes I wonder if the fact that Cringely stopped posting on Kickstarter was related to him worrying about this kind of possibility.
Ah, I just checked, and Monahan settled with the FTC in 2020: https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/11/21254802/ibackpack-creator-ftc-settlement-crowdfunding-shipping
Another suit against Asylum Playing Cards (a failed 2012 Kickstarter campaign) by the State of Washington was actually successful, the first of its kind to be so:
“And what Ferguson called “the first enforcement action in the nation against a crowdfunded project that didn’t follow through on its promise to backers” succeeded this July, netting restitution for the Washington-based donors and slapping Asylum with $31,000 in civil penalties.”
https://www.seattlemet.com/news-and-city-life/2015/10/washington-state-sued-a-failed-kickstarter-project-and-won
It kind of feels like if Bob just keeps hanging on long enough, though, the Statute of Limitations would apply.
A quick check shows that the Statute of Limitations for fraud in the US is seven years. The project was successful in December of 2015, so Bob should be in the clear by the end of this year (unless there’s some lack of clarity over when the actual crime was committed, which seems possible).
Again, I doubt anything will happen–tons of Kickstarters fail, and almost none of them are prosecuted for it. Mineserver doesn’t seem that important or that egregious. But maybe there was a method to Bob’s madness for his endless strung-out “updates” on the project. Maybe he was playing out the clock.
I didn’t think nuclear weapons will be used in this conflict, but a cyber attack is a real possibility.
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The Colonial Pipeline ransomware-style attack caused a major ripple in the US economy and psyche. The hackers (DarkSide) behind it were thought to be Russian, but not funded by the Russian government. The only impact was the billing system was shut down and that in turn shut off the pipeline because Colonial could not easily track sales.
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Putin has very few ways to react to the sanctions, but he is definitely a man that likes to react. The biggest impact would be to turn off the fuel and LPGas pipelines, cut off raw material sales like nickel or rare earth metals, or to launch a cyber attack. What if Russian government supported hackers launched an attack on the electrical grid, other pipelines, transportation? It would be crippling. It’s easier than launching a nuclear weapon and can do some substantial damage to the world economy.
But everyone knows that states now retaliate for what appear to be state-sanctioned hacking and there’s virtually no doubt that this would happen in this case. Unlike airstrikes or nukes the response will probably also not limit itself by “proportionality.”
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It’s interesting to me that most Americans still think of cyber attacks as another theater of the “superpower” arms race. Iran (probably) was able to walk through almost any American bank you can name in their (alleged) retaliatory “strikes” for Stuxnet. They most definitely fucked up Saudi Arabia’s shit. Venezuela, the Saudis, UAE – all had “influence campaigns” on social media that were probably better if less extensive than Russia or Turkey. Ukraine itself (allegedly) had serious offensive capabilities, not least of all because so many wanted cyber criminals were living there and it had a reputation as a haven for people on the shady side of the internet.
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Speaking of which, I wonder what becomes of them? This guy, Sam Jain, is well-known in Something Awful internet lore and later became the genius behind the “WinFixer” malware pop-ups. He was supposedly last known to be in UKR:
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https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber/shaileshkumar-p.-jain
Wally,
There is a lot of concern regarding cyber-attacks from Russia.
From what I am gathering from the analysis I’m reading is that a concern of Russia using nuclear weapons has become somewhat less and Russia’s use of chemical weapons more likely.
Putin’s immediate and most important goal (in his mind) is to take Mariupol’, Ukraine and the land around it that will link Russia by land to the Black Sea. Cyber-attacks would not provide an immediate and direct support of that goal.
I haven’t read how the Biden administration will retaliate to a Russian use of chemical weapons. Obviously, the US has worked out what the response will be – it is not public knowledge.
The Obama administration used cruise missiles to knock-out Russian airbase aircraft facilities after the Russians used chemical-weapons in Syria. I would guess the Biden administration will do something similar.
@True Rock: “The Obama administration used cruise missiles to knock-out Russian airbase aircraft facilities after the Russians used chemical-weapons in Syria. I would guess the Biden administration will do something similar.”
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I don’t know how to respond to this because almost every word I have quoted here from your post is factually, verifiably incorrect.
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Obama’s only military strikes in Syria were against ISIS targets. There were no military strikes in response to chemical weapons attacks because he threw it to congress which would not pass an authorization of military force. This was the famous “red line” debate. And even at the time it was being considered (2013), Russia had not yet militarily intervened in Syria (2015).
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The Russians have never been accused of “us[ing] chemical-weapons in Syria,” not in 2013 (before they began bombing targets) and not after. The Syrian government has. That was the total essence of the “red line” debate. Russia was not in the country and has never been accused of this.
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And “Russian airbase aircraft facilities” were most definitely NOT struck by cruise missiles, not by Obama and not when Trump ordered the cruise missile strikes at Shayrat in 2017. Shayrat was a Syrian Air Force base, used by them, Russians use the Khmeimim Air Base by the August 2015 treaty which began their intervention. And far from being targeted, the Russians were notified in advance as part of deconfliction. The US and Russia were at great pains NOT to hit each other in Syria and never have, not by accident and definitely not intentional cruise missile strikes on “Russian airbase aircraft facilities.”
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Everything in this can be verified, it was all quite noteworthy at the time. I don’t know where you got your wires crossed but this is all terribly inaccurate misinformation.
Granville,
Yes, your description is much more accurate and reflects the officially stated occurrence.
I admit I was sloppy in what I wrote.
I should have googled it.
I wasn’t trying to get into a detailed analysis of what officially happened, what actually happened, etc.
I was just trying to give a quick 2 sentence take on a possible result. Yes, I could have written a more lengthy and detailed explanation of my opinion.
Regardless, in my opinion, if Russia uses chemical weapons in Ukraine, NATO will respond with cruise missiles targeted on Russian assets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBARgW_vHVE
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Revisiting a “no fly zone” with this video because one part of the video touches upon the accuracy of Western intelligence made Putin paranoid about how much of his military hierarchy was penetrated by Western intelligence. Putin gutted communications to top officers which caused the chain of command to collapse and not be able to respond adequately to developing situations. It also wrecked the Russians already poor combined services operations. The reason I mention this is it ties in with the issue of part of the West’s strategy is to signal to Russian military and intelligence and perhaps media and other who have access of their intent and build a narrative questioning the military purpose of the Putin totalitarian regime.
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There are other videos by other experts on military capabilities which is a useful foundation to this video.
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The actual bit on the reason against a “no fly zone” begins at 40:30.
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I haven’t actually found a video condensing nuke issues into one place. What is available is really scattered stuff from senior people but who are retired or not within the NATO decision loop. The issue of signalling is why they’re very tight lipped and also why blogs like Mark Stephen’s (aka Cringely) and bandwaggoning big media and blowhard politicians aren’t helpful. You don’t want to cause a political situation which can be exploited or misunderstood or distract from important priorities, nor do you want to cause unnecessary public panic or loss of morale.
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The comments on not falling for Putin’s red flag operations and provocation and misinformation outlined in the video is as true for no fly zones, nukes, and cyber attacks.
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90% of my job as an escort is bluff and subtle provocation. I’m as much use in a warzone as a chocolate teapot but you do what you can.
trashtalk,
Excellent link. Thank you.
Military aviation expert Justin Bronk, Royal United Services Institute Research Fellow, Airpower & Technology is an excellent source of information. I read http://www.rusi.org almost every day.
In the last 10 minutes of the stream, Justin says Russia is humiliated because it is losing the war. Putin wants NATO to intervene militarily so he will have an excuse to use nuclear weapons.
Ooops. The nuke issue is touched on beginning with a summary of the war situation around 45:10 and picking up steam on trigger points around 46:10. That’s a preamble worth listening to to give a rounded context. The talk on nukes specifically begins at 47:00.
It seems a lot of these readers dont understand that reading Cringely’s writing is optional. Why bother if you despite everything and simply want to have a moan. Unsubscribe. And the mineserver folk, shez, quit being cry babies and move on already. Your lives will be better for it.
Ah HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
I usually read the comments first.
@Gromet Cringely’s writing is definitely optional–especially when he sometimes takes six months off between blog posts.
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But the comment threads attached to each post have been, at times, pure gold. There are a lot of interesting people who hang out here–for whatever reason–and Cringely allows it, so why not? Nobody’s forcing you to be here, either.
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As for Mineserver, I too once felt that people were wasting time constantly reminding Cringely of his failure to live up to his obligations. But when I investigated it a bit more, all sorts of worrying patterns emerged from Cringely’s public statements, including decades of lies. What’s more, said lies were escalating over time. That’s why I changed my mind about the Mineserver saga. It’s important not to let it just get buried and forgotten.
The problem with Cringley and Mineserver is that he used his reputation here to promote it. He milked the people who would come to his website and followed him for his previous works.
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That he’s a history of failure, as you’ve pointed out, doesn’t matter. Cringley assured investors that not only did he have the connections to ensure that it would work, but he had it all costed. It was, we were told, just ready to go in to production.
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When you’re investing in something you’re not just investing in that idea, but the people behind it. You have to have trust with them, trust that they know and have the technical abilities to deliver but also know they’ll be honest with investors. Cringley appears to fail both tests.
“And the mineserver folk, shez, quit being cry babies and move on already. Your lives will be better for it.”
Sometimes, someone will get a little full of themselves and think that they are better than everyone else. That irks me, especially when it is so clearly undeserved. Crookely thinks he can get away with anything he wants because he’s famous or something.
I check in here now and again because, as Jeremy mentioned, the comments can be well worth the price of admission and because I kinda do want to see Crookely being held accountable. Do I think I can change him or even get him to come clean and apologize? No, of course not. Do I think maybe I can irk him as much as he irks me? I hope so. It’s not much, but it doesn’t cost me anything other than a few moments of time.
Truth be told, I think Crookely is nearly as far gone, narcissistically, as the Orange Menace — thinks he knows everything, that those who disagree with him or try to hold him accountable are the enemy, and, ultimately, is just a big failure that got a little too much attention.
Sometimes?
Jeeze! What a Boy Scout!
it seems that most here, especially Mr. Cringely, are swallowing the narrative of the western press without reading or listening to what Putin and his fellows actually say.
Nuclear is a Last Resort… to be used only when the entire Republic Of Russia (Russian Federation) is in peril
this operation of the Russians is not USA/NATO style Shock and Awe with the huge “collateral damage” Dead Civilians and Destroyed Infrastructure.
I find lots of men look at my pictures without properly bothering to read my escort profile. Prospective clients who pay attention tend to be more successful booking me although I can tell the ones who are trying to tell me what I want to hear and they get binned too.
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I don’t normally work at night but before the pandemic I used to be awake late sometimes and take a call. There was one man who I think had probably been to a club with friends. He wasn’t drunk but was a walk-in so not the usual. I declined that call and he said something like “What does it take to get a **** in this city?” So not the first attempt that night. Oh, the poor dear. I did sympathise but we are where we are.
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As for Putin’s useful idiot who began posting here…
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bBgcmnZEQ
Amanpour and Company
Kremlin Spokesperson Refuses to Rule Out the Use of Nuclear Weapons
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Christiane Amanpour is one of the world’s most respected journalists. The question she is teasing and what the thug in a cheap suit she is interviewing is dancing around with is what is the decision point for use of nukes by Russia.
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“Existential threat” can be a very very slippery word in Russian politics. Russia is not like the West where Western states are broadly speaking governed by “will of the people”. Russia is very much a state with a state enforced with guns ideology of the people are the state and the state are the people with the state coming out on top.
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Given Putin’s Czarist proclivities and obvious totalitarian inclinations one gets the sense that Putin regards himself as “the state”.Putin has a history of human rights abuses on his watch. The Russian military have according to reports been told to ignore human rights obligations (if they ever paid attention to them). The Russians are bombing civilian infrastructure, bombing civilians, and even opened fire on a bread queue.
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As for criticising Western media? You mean Western media which is covering extremely verifiable incidents? Please do not peddle Russian propaganda especially when Russia has a total media lockdown and all the independent news sites and opposition parties and public protests have been shut down by Putin.
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So back to “existential threat”. Yes, the policies are published as Putin’s thug asserts but much like Western policies they don’t reveal everything for operational security reasons. They are deliberately slightly vague. The political and military command structure is under Putin’s thumb like it wasn’t even in Soviet days. So Putin’s thug is telling a lie hiding behind the truth. The claim that Russia will only use nukes if “the entire Russian nation is in peril” is a complete nonsense. It’s sophistry. Rhetoric. A lie.
Uh, oh… Cringely says that Putin won’t use nukes, but Cringley is always wrong about everything. Now I’m worried.
@GreenWyvern True, but even a stopped Cringely is right twice a day.
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In this case I think Cringely is right for the wrong reasons. His explanation for Russia not using nukes is that Putin is worried about potential future Russian casualties, which makes no sense.
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But I think instead what is stopping Putin from using nukes is that he at the very least knows basic history, and understands that there’s a reason no nation ever used nukes in warfare since the first and last time in 1945. The reprisals would be swift and universal (even China would be against this sort of action) and Russia would be doomed at that point (and he, in particular, would be doomed, I think).
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At the moment Putin probably believes that his best course of action, having committed himself to a foolish war based on inaccurate information from his subordinates, is to just try and grind Ukraine down for long enough that they give up before Russia falls apart completely. I don’t think it will work, but it’s the only choice he has left at this point.
I don’t know about correctness of calculations for nuclear blast itself. But I know, that more people will be killed by hysteria than by radioactivity from nuclear fallout: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOvHxX5wMa8
I’ve seen various analysis sug_esting something like 20 million to 100 million dead from the initial blasts and perhaps 500 million to 1.5 billion dead because of indirect causes – e.g. radiation sickness, cancer, starvation, etc.
Those analysis assume small tactical nukes of less than 1 kiloton (of TNT) used by both Russia and NATO… mostly in Ukraine but probably spreading into the surrounding countries somewhat.
Here is a typical study:
https://www.icanw.org/new_study_on_us_russia_nuclear_war
I haven’t seen any estimates of the numbers of dead from panic.
Stray thought for today: People have mentioned Putin needing an off ramp and that’s something he can take any time. I’ve also heard mention any change in Russia is ultimately down to whether the people are empowered. I personally feel a palace coup and a return to a Gorbachev led vision and handing Putin over for a war crimes trial will give Russia the out it needs without any loss of face. This is all on Putin.
What kind of a person takes people’s money with no intention of ever delivering the product. Then strings them along for 5+ years with false promises of updates? Answer, a criminal sociopath.
What kind of person thinks he can read a world leader’s mind? Answer, a delusional schizophrenic.
Cringely, or what ever his name is, is mentally ill.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1506699248758362118
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueQTxtWV-AU
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All the fun.
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You can bet that if Putin does push the button and nuke some city in Ukraine, that would have been the manufacturing centre of Cringley’s Mineservers.
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Look what they made him do!
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As for Putin being too afraid to kill Russians I wouldn’t be too sure. Like in the UK it seems Russia has a leader who doesn’t care about the population he’s supposed to govern.
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The threat to Russia isn’t the fallout from Putin’s own bomb but the retaliation from the rest of the world. Every other nation would have to mobilise and attack Russia to overthrow Putin and all in his party.
Some thoughts on the sinking of the Russian ship at Berdyansk this morning.
This is a major strategic setback for Russia. They can no longer use that port to resupply and reinforce their troops in southern Ukraine. It seriously weakens their position in the south-east.
Even if they eventually capture Mariupol, the docks and port there will be destroyed and unusable. They currently have control of the coastline between Crimea and Donbas, but this will make it far more difficult to hold. In the south-west, they have stalled completely at the port of Mykolaiv, and I don’t believe they have any hope of taking Odesa.
EU diplomats have been saying that Putin’s idea is that he will be ready to negotiate once he has cut Ukraine off from the sea. That would allow him to negotiate from a position of strength and ask for territorial concessions from Ukraine.
However, the strike on Berdyansk makes it clear how completely unrealistic Putin’s idea is. He’s still out of touch with reality.
GreenWyvern,
Yes, you are absolutely correct.
Putin’s use of conventional war tactics do not work within the context of modern warfare.
Every time the US spends $13 billion on an aircraft carrier the issue of obsolete war tactics comes up.
Spending $6 million on a tank that can be taken out by 1 soldier with a $38,000 shoulder fired missile is extremely questionable in today’s world of $50,000 drones and modern warfare tactics.
But, to me the issue still remains will Putin fire a nuclear missile into Ukraine. I just finished reading this article:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-makes-contingency-plans-case-114023312.html
Don’t waste your time reading it – because, it has no substantive information.
Most estimations are Russia might fire a small 1 kiloton nuclear missile into a remote, unpopulated area of Ukraine.
In my opinion, NATO will respond to Russia firing a nuclear missile with a massive release of conventional cruise missiles on Russian assets in Ukraine.
My guess is that the cruise missiles have already been readied and targeted. I’m guessing that NATO will announce in advance one day after Russia uses a nuclear missile when they will launch.
After that, Putin will have only a couple of options: fire more nuclear missiles or withdraw from Ukraine.
If Russia continues to fire nuclear weapons, then a small nuclear war will break out and perhaps roughly 100 million people will die shortly after and then perhaps a billion will die from starvation and other indirect causes (in my opinion and estimation). I do not think any ICBMs will be launched. Only small tactical nuclear missiles will be used.
By the way, if Russia launches a nuclear missile, hording massive amounts of toilet paper (and other sundries) is not necessary and will not assist you in the aftermath (in my opinion).
According to Twitter, “When Zelenskyy addressed NATO today via video, he asked for more military aid from the West — but did not repeat his call for a no-fly zone, according to a senior administration official.”
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If this is accurate, it means the situation has changed in an interesting way, and clearly not one that’s favorable to Russia.
Jeremy,
How do you put a blank line between paragraphs?
Thanks
Adding a blank line between paragraphs on Cringely’s site:
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* For Windows PCs with a numeric keypad: enter ALT-255 (using the numeric keypad for numbers)
* For Macintosh computers, enter ALT-
* For Windows PCs without a numeric keypad, or on mobile devices, enter a single period (.) instead.
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This should be in the header on Cringely’s site, lol.
sorry, forgot that the site eats greater than and less than signs: for Macs, use ALT-spacebar
Thank you
A few major stories Cringely stories without Cringely in the last couple of days:
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1. So far, the major “cyber attack” has come from idiots that maintain open source code dependencies inserting malware that wipes all files if it detects a Russian or Belarussian IP address. A human rights organization already acknowledged that they were a victim, and that all reports they’d received since their last back-up have been lost forever. There’s quite a lot of talk about this “denigrating open source.” Weirdly though I’m not sure there’s anyone to capitalize on it. If this were 2002 or 2012, no doubt Microsoft would have already had commercials up asking DO YOU KNOW WHO IS WRITING YOUR CODE
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2. Stephen Wilhite of CompuServ and GIF format fame has died of COVID:
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https://www.megiefuneralhome.com/obituaries/Stephen-E.-Wilhite?obId=24311617#
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3. John Roach, who lead the Tandy TRS-80 team, has also died:
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https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/technology/personaltech/john-roach-dead.html
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4. Ken and Roberta Williams of Sierra On-Line fame are remaking “Adventure” for VR and PCs:
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https://gameworldobserver.com/2022/03/22/ken-and-roberta-williams-working-on-colossal-cave-adventure-remake-for-vr-and-pc
@granville, thanks for posting these. The story of John Roach and Tandy/Radio Shack is interesting, because he had to fight just to get the computer placed in all of Radio Shack’s stores–he only won that battle because other executives figured at worst the store managers could use the single computer placed in each store to track inventory. Instead it became a huge success and one of the “Trinity” of early microcomputers in North America: the Commodore PET, the TRS-80, and the Apple ][.
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The Ken and Roberta Williams story is pretty cool. I have a tangential connection to it. The announcement video shown at GDC was created by Zach Weddington, the director of the Viva Amiga documentary and the upcoming Arcade Dreams documentary, the latter of which I’m the lead writer on. If you’re at all interested in those early days of computer games, Ken Williams’ book, “Not All Fairy Tales have Happy Endings” is definitely worth picking up.
@Jeremy – We often praise the product/thing with the greatest technology but as was recently said about modern electronic scooters vs the Segway, often what you need is just a cheap piece of crap that works:
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“When I returned the Segway, I told the guy at the rental place how I’d learned about all the incredible inspiration and innovation and work and skill that had gone into the Segway, all to make something that cost 10 times as much as a scooter and required a lesson from an expert to ride. He said something I cannot stop thinking about. “Yeah,” he said, “a bunch of really smart people got together, but you needed one dumb person in the room to keep things on the level…
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“But of course, astronomically more people own and ride cheap scooters and junky hoverboards than ever owned or used a Segway. Heading back to my office, just walking on my plain old feet, I thought about how the Segway was an elegant work of genius when what the world really needed was a good-enough piece of crap. Maybe, in the end, I didn’t kill the Segway. It might have had a chance, if only I hadn’t been the only dumb guy around.”
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https://slate.com/human-interest/2021/08/dean-kamen-viral-mystery-invention-2001.html
@granville, great point, the whole personal computer industry came about as a sort of side-project, where established computer companies (IBM, HP, etc) did not see a market for, say, $2000 computers owned by individuals. Woz was an HP engineer and had to offer the Apple I design to HP before being allowed to sell it on his own. The head of the department at HP didn’t see a point to such a device, so he gave Woz his blessing.
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On the other side of the pond, cheap but “good enough” machines like the ZX80, ZX81, and later the ZX Spectrum got just enough computing power at a price a typical family could afford, and it created entirely new industries. The documentary “From Bedrooms to Billons” covers this pretty well.
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It’s rare in history for the dominant companies in any particular field to miss the boat so completely on such a shift. IBM famously did their “let’s get a product out in a year” push, but because they were so time pressured, it turned out to be ridiculously easy to clone. So the IBM PC standard won out, but IBM lost control over it, and eventually exited the business entirely.
Haven’t seen that documentary and will have to check it out.
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One of the reasons I really like your writing is you’ve tried to grab the narrative stream and nudge it back toward reality.
@granville, thanks, I appreciate the comment. This is definitely what I try to do.
granville,
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Thanks for the tip
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Ken and Roberta Williams were married and having babies when they were teenagers (1972) and are still married and making a new video game. Amazing!
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1972… No global warming, no covid, no Russia-Ukraine war…
There were problems back then (the cold war, energy crisis, etc) – but, they all seemed solvable – to me.
How Steve Wilhite created GIF, the graphics format that ate the world
https://www.fastcompany.com/90734869/history-of-gif-steve-wilhite
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_VGnXs20DU
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I can’t do this justice and this timeline doesn’t even show the worst of it.
That was a great link, trashtalk, thanks for that. It really shows the scale of the atrocities being committed by Russian forces.
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I normally try not to watch war footage as it can feel traumatic even though I’ve never suffered through this myself. But in this case I’ve forced myself to watch a bit, just so I can understand what’s happening.
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What really got me was a video from the first days of the war that the New York Times put together: https://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000008266864/russia-army-radio-makariv.html There’s a scene, verified by both video and witnesses on the ground, where a Russian tank opens fire on a civilian vehicle–a regular family sedan–and two elderly Ukranians inside are killed instantly.
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I can’t ever forget seeing that, and I can’t ever forgive Putin nor Russia for enabling and encouraging this behavior. I know that in the heat of battle some troops can behave badly. That’s not what this is. This is sheer, brutal terror for the sake of terror, and Putin deserves to go down as one of history’s worst monsters.
trashtalk,
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Very sad. That was hard to watch.
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It was good that you posted that link.
It’s very clear that Putin is not at all rational and that he couldn’t give a rats ass about anyone. He would nuke just to prove he’s got guts in some twisted sociopathic way. What makes you think he cares about the very citizens he’s terrorized as the head of KGB??
Gord,
Most people would agree with you. Putin is probably a sociopath – but, we don’t know for sure. There is a reasonable possibility that Putin will launch nuclear missiles. I don’t think any knowledgeable individuals have tried to estimate how likely it is that Putin will do that – but, it is definitely a reasonable possibility.
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It is being sug_ested that perhaps Putin will think that if the Ukraine-Russia war gets completely out of hand and too many Russians die, he might be assassinated. Hopefully that is a case (or perhaps for other reasons) and Putin will try to exit the Ukraine-Russia war without hundreds of thousands or billions of people dying from nuclear war.
Neither is Putin sociopath nor will he use nuclear weapons. He has been in power for too long and surrounded himself with ass kissers so his people told him what he wanted to hear – it would be easy quick victory.
You people need to chill a little – there will be no nuclear weapons used. Russians have been pretty sane competitors since the end of WW 2 and there are lot of people on their side who will not allow for that to happen. Both sides use nuclear weapons as deterrent only.
You still have way more chance to be killed in your car than with nuclear weapon.
Find a hobby and don’t read bullshit to much.
wwwpirate,
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I absolutely agree with your sug_estion that people should chill in regard to the possibility of nukes being used in the Russia-Ukraine war.
Several things in your post to respond to…
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Your last sentence is correct – in my estimation. First, I don’t think anyone is sug_esting the possibility of global nuclear war is a reasonable possibility. I think most are thinking of tactical nukes in Ukraine and the surrounding Russian and NATO areas as the worst-case scenario. And, strategist are thinking Putin and NATO would purposely avoid using nukes in locations with a lot of people. My guess is that it is reasonably possible that Putin might deploy a small nuke in an unpopulated area of Ukraine if he thinks it would make NATO back-off on its assistance to Ukraine. I have seen no one try to guess how likely that is – but, most intelligent analysts are thinking more than 0 percent – in my opinion. If nukes are used, more people will die from indirect impacts like starvation as compared to being directly killed by a nuclear blast – in my opinion.
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As to understanding how Putine thinks – is he a sociopath? First “sociopath” is not really an official medical thing – but, individuals who have personally dealt with Putin have said his emotions of empathy, guilt and remorse are low or almost non-existent as compared to “normal” people. Many individuals think Putin will use nukes if he thinks it will help him stay in power. Regardless, no one knows for sure how Putin thinks about using nukes.
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I really don’t see a straight line of logic between your first sentence and your second sentence. Your second sentence is generally regarded as true – but, it doesn’t really support your conclusion in the first sentence.
A few people have noticed a generational divide on this. Instant annihilation rather than a slow suffocating death is a new source of anxiety for people born after 1990. I’m not sure if it’s hopeful or depressing to say “They’ll get used to it, like we did.”
Some just want to watch the world burn . . .
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/putin-doesnt-realize-how-much-warfare-has-changed/627600/
Gnarfle,
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That link is behind a paywall. I wouldn’t recommend that anyone buy a subscription to The Atlantic to read it. In my opinion, it is not particularly perceptive thinking.
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Trashtalk has posted the best link for my purposes. I highly recommend watching it:
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Military aviation expert Justin Bronk, Royal United Services Institute Research Fellow, Airpower & Technology
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBARgW_vHVE
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If you want to buy a subscription to something that really understands things military and war:
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https://rusi.org/
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The organization that Justin Bronk works with.
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Have you tried 12ft.io?
https://12ft.io/
🙂
That better?
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=http://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/putin-doesnt-realize-how-much-warfare-has-changed/627600
Not really interested in understanding war. The article is more about Putin’s mistakes because of his memories of the glorious victory of the Soviets during WWII.
And yet another theory of “war” . . .
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=http://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/putin-kremlin-foreign-policy-strategy/629388
Someone needs to put retreating Russian tanks to Benny Hill music.
Dmitry Medvedev has been claiming sanctions against Russia won’t work. Let’s break this down…
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A first glance at Dmitry Medvedev shows he would never have had a political career without being boosted by Putin, was Putin’s seat warmer while Putin dodged the Russian constitution, and someone I view as another Putin yes man and beta male.
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He claims major businessmen have no influence on the countries leadership. Maybe and maybe not, maybe not directly but maybe indirectly. In any case that’s easy to say in a totalitarian regime where anyone who disagrees is disappeared. That’s an easy way to win and argument.
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The interesting thing is Medvedev goes on to say Russia will need to develop its own industries. Um, when since the end of the Cold War has Russia ever done that?
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He also hits two points: Any attack on an asset in Russia or Russian infrastructure and Russia will allow itself the use of nukes. Also Putin prefers negotiation. Right, so Russia invades Ukraine on various made up excuses and shoots missiles from within Russian territory. He comes over as a bit of a clown who wants it both ways.
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Medvedev also denounces Russians abroad who protest against the war as traitors. Apparently, trivial stuff which doesn’t matter you may disagree with but anything substantive and it’s an icepick in the head?
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I don’t think Dmitry Medvedev gets how fundamentally broken Russia is. I’m not sure he’s intelligent enough to grasp it.
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I’ve been on Reddit. There was some interesting conversation but it’s pretty much dried up these past few days. I’ve been running into too many people who can only see the world from their singular point of view and who begin reframing and escalating and circling the wagons. There was one moaning her boobs hurt after her boyfriend had been too rough so I put her right on it. Oh, the getting the wrong end of the stick and frothing from “in their own heads progressives” this caused. I’m not going to tell her I’m a sex worker and know this subject well and plenty of other women would put her right too. Who can be bothered with it? It’s the same as going to the shop the other day. There was this fat dumb cow hogging the isle when she was walking back and forth, and who coughed on the way back to the till and coughed and blathered on when she was at the till. Thanks. I am tripled vaccinated and haven’t caught Covid yet to the best of my knowledge in spite of stupid people’s best attempts. Yet…
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Some new underwired lace bras I bought after some shopping therapy arrived. Oh, good.They fit and look nice so that’s me happy.
@trashtalk “The interesting thing is Medvedev goes on to say Russia will need to develop its own industries. Um, when since the end of the Cold War has Russia ever done that?”
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Technically he’s correct in the sense that Russia will have to develop their own industries after making themselves an international pariah on the level of North Korea.
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But having to do something and being able to do it are two different things. Russia’s mob-based power structure means that the only industries that can develop are existing industries like oil and gas, or Potemkin village industries where Russia claims to be building a new product, like, say, a tractor, but actually just imports them from some Eastern European country and puts a Russian logo on it. Then the director of said company gets to brag about Russian industry to their superiors, even though it doesn’t and never will exist.
This is a good Twitter thread explaining the details: https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1501360272442896388
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The TL;DR is that while Russia does have some native industry and factories, they are all dependent on Western machinery and tooling. Without these machines, Russian industry simply doesn’t function. This is why, for example, they haven’t been able to produce any of their latest model of tanks since the 2014 invasion of Crimea.
Maybe Bob is hoping . . .
https://12ft.io/proxy?q=http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/retirement-the-margaritaville-way
If Putin’s Yes men turn on him would that be a chicken coup?
Sheesh, these comment pages look like an Among Us game, except most all participants are sockpuppets.
Cheerio.
@passerby, perhaps it’s not worthwhile to respond to you, if you’re merely passing by, but I do commend you on composing a comment that is simultaneously a) edgy and hip and b) incomprehensible.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/03/putin-doesnt-realize-how-much-warfare-has-changed/627600/
Could Putin loose Donbass, Crimea and Georgia now? Ukraine is ready and willing to fight now that the war is on. How bad will Putin’s disaster be?
I like the link by Jeremy. It highlighted my own thoughts that Russia is cursed by authoritarianism, criminal thugs, and places too much emphasis on a disproportionate military rather than its society and economy.
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The comments that Putin cannot remain in power are emotional but everyone knows what they mean. I think officials and politicians response afterwords mishandled things even worse and lost the initiative but this is what you get from career officials and not hugely bright reactive politicians. The Russians are spinning this like mad but it’s the usual lying and twisting we have come to expect from the Russians. The fact is the longer the czarist war criminal and human rights denying thug Putin remains in power the longer the atrocities and destableisation and lack of trust continues.
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Putin is the man who legalised wife beating so I don’t think the Russians are the ones to talk about anger management especially after Putin’s staged shouting down of one of his advisors and micro-rage on stage, and one of his generals losing the plot during a diplomatic meeting, and some soldiers ran their own officer over with a tank.
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I can’t take Putin seriously now anyway. His puffy botox face makes him look like a talking bottom.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK38f6o00D0
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This video reasserts principles and dismisses the whataboutary which has been doing the rounds. I didn’t bother watching the video all the way through. The comments are slightly more interesting.
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I like observations in the comments that Putin’s Russia is a rational actor using criminal thug tactics to obtain concessions.
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I also find the idea that Russia wants a buffer zone to be hilarious. The rest of us want a buffer zone between us and Russia if they’re getting funny about it and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine makes the point! Who wants to live next to a failing criminal state?
Russia continuing to make a thing of Biden’s comment about Putin.Like,Biden said what everyone is thinking so Moscow press secretaries can stop hyperventilating. Nobody is buying the indignation.
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Not a pee out of Russia about Russian solider raping and sexually assaulting women. But then what do you expect from a totalitarian state where the ruler legalised wife beating? Maria Mezentseva, head of Ukraine’s delegation to the parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe, said cases needed to be recorded, as ‘justice has to prevail’. There are also reports of women being gang raped and worse. Some of those women have been executed or committed suicide.
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How’s the legal system in Russia working under Putin? Oh, and there’s the very convenient constitutional ban on extradition brought in by Putin. I wonder why!
TECHNOLOGY
Anonymous Starts ‘Huge’ Data Dump That Will ‘Blow Russia Away,’
https://www.ibtimes.com.au/anonymous-starts-huge-data-dump-will-blow-russia-away-leaks-rostproekt-emails-1804386
Their web page with data dump is in Twitter post. For some reason I am not allowed to copy/paste their web page here.
Documents are in Russian language so if you are interested you’ll have to use Google translate or wait for someone else to do it.
UPDATE
Twitter suspended some (not all) Anonymous accounts for violating the terms of use of the platform by leaking personal information of individuals.
https://securityaffairs.co/wordpress/129555/hacktivism/anonymous-hacked-vgtrk-russian-radio-tv.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbZw9D46s7Q
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Some earlier performances:
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDUdK5SYa7w
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVxE5mG9jxE
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Thanks for those!
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I guess this saves Putin having to explain the lack of visitors plus “Pssst. Don’t talk about the war”…
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Bottom face has also started claiming he wasn’t seeking “regime change” in Ukraine. Why couldn’t he pick up the phone and say “Hello” like everyone else instead of sending tanks in? It’s rude.
Why waste time? Put a bullet in Putin’s head now. Russians used to be better at this. They were famous for it. Droogies, he’s another fucking Czar! He’s made Russia the bête noire of the century. Shoot him and move on. I know you can do it / so, droogies, get to it…
^ this is what years of televising billions of dollars of munitions falling on the heads of Afghans and Arabs has done to people. Just absolute brain rot, to say nothing of the rest of him.
We are all counting on Putin being logical and rational.
At the end, Hitler wanted his people to die with him, because they had failed, and let him down.
Pol Pot massacred his own people because they were educated and sophisticated.
Tojo created kamikazee pilots out of naive young men.
Bin Laden didn’t care either.
You bring up an interesting point. In the aftermath of 9/11, I felt sorry for every person affected by the attack including the attackers.
Beware the tyrannies embraced in the pursuit of freedom.
Ukraine is the surrogacy capital of the world. In the middle of Putin’s “war of choice” new babies are being born every day and unable to join their parents. 18 babies are being sheltered in a bunker. There are many more and more on the way.
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https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/surrogate-motherhood-in-ukraine-keep-calm-the-life-of-your-child-depends-on-it-a-70383ee7-b5c7-4568-8f4e-2494cb9bec11
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Since you woke them up would you please send all these Tactical Nuclear Specialist back to bed.
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Putin is acting more like Stalin, and Stalin would have no problem with killing a million Russians. Let’s hope Putin doesn’t go full Stalin.
Dear Bob,
If Putin believes that Ukraine couldn’t launch a WMD retaliation against Russia, then I hope that he reconsiders that belief. Ukraine might not have nuclear bombs, but it does have A LOT of highly-radioactive dust from Chernobyl. I’m not a nuclear chemist, but I’m sure that there are some Ukrainians who could purify that dust and then arrange for the Ukrainian military to airmail the concentrated dust to explode over an assortment of Russian cities. I believe that the late science fiction author Robert Heinlein wrote about that scenario more than eight decades ago.
Walt Meservey