Back on January 23rd, the New York Times published an Op-Ed piece by Kate Murphy titled America Has a GPS Problem, citing fear at the highest levels of government and industry that international bad actors might bring down the Global Positioning System satellite network, running your Tesla into a guardrail in the process. It’s just the sort of story you’d expect to read here, rather than in the Times, but what the heck. And the story is absolutely correct: we are all in danger. But Ms. Murphy, beyond wringing her hands, doesn’t say how the crisis will be averted or who will do the averting. I predict that Apple will fix the problem and save the day and they’ll probably do it this year.
The military and intelligence communities have long been worried that China or Russia could shoot down some or all of the 24 GPS satellites, blinding our strategic weapons in the process. It’s literal shooting-down, too, since the anti-satellite weapons demonstrated so far have been kinetic — dumb rocks smashed into our satellites at incredible speed, knocking them from the sky and requiring incredible precision. So far only China and Russia have this offensive capability. But Ms. Murphy and the Times expand the population of bad guys beyond China and Russia to include enemies jamming, spoofing, or otherwise hacking GPS, which could be anyone — Iran, North Korea, even groups of private individuals.
The military solution to this problem has, up until now, involved the idea of being able to replace GPS satellites faster than they can be shot down. But since hackers, jammers, and spoofers don’t have to shoot down anything, we really need an alternative to GPS, itself, which sounds like a great business opportunity for someone.
I’m not necessarily talking about another satellite system, either, though that’s certainly possible. But here’s the real challenge: any solution really has to work — at least for awhile — with existing GPS receivers. That is, to avoid spoofing problems, this new navigation system will have to, itself, be a super-spoofer, emulating GPS satellites whether it physically replaces them or not.
We’re just too dependent on GPS. Any maker of a more secure system would be thrilled, of course, to replace billions of GPS receivers. And I mean billions, since every smartphone has one as does every Internet-of-Things device.
Whatever comes to more securely replace GPS will eventually dominate, but initially it will also have to emulate or we’ll be blind.
Any superior GPS replacement won’t rely on just different satellites, it must rely on different technology. For that, Apple is the best — and possibly only — bet.
There are already billions of GPS devices that work quite well most of the time. Replacing them would not only cost tens of billions, it would take years. What you really want is a system that can perform two very specific functions: 1) it can be used to verify or validate the GPS signal, and; 2) it can replace GPS when absolutely necessary.
Is this GPS position real, we’ll wonder, and how do we even determine that? Even more importantly, how do we do so without having to change everything? Can we do it in software?
One thing Apple could do is monitor iPhone positions and set off an alarm if it has significantly changed or disappeared for no reason — especially if the displacement affects more than one phone. We could do this with an app that tracks past movements and looks for nonsensical changes of position. If we just changed position in a way that would require traveling faster than is possible (even faster than light), it’s probably not legit, so set off an alarm. That, in itself, creates two additional problems. How do we then figure out where we actually are? And what if this just trains the bad guys to lead us slowly astray? If our threshold for displacement is 10 kilometers or even 10 meters, the bad guys can just introduce their change one meter at a time and we may never see it. So the app I suggest is useful, but not an absolute solution. And it’s still not a true alternative to GPS.
You can contrast local disruptions with global disruptions. A local disruption would be like that trucker’s GPS jammer from the Times story that allowed him to driver overtime. Have we suddenly lost our signal and — if we have — how do we estimate our current position with similar or better accuracy? If we’ve suddenly lost our signal, has everyone everywhere lost their signal, too? That’s a global disruption. And what do we do about that?
There is a cloud solution here, which either Apple or Google could put in place. Apple’s would be better, but Google’s might be good enough. There are hundreds of millions of Apple and Android phones all over the world, generally functioning as nodes on two or three networks simultaneously. You can triangulate with other nodes on the surviving networks to determine location down to a few meters, I’m sure. That’s not WAAS accuracy, but good enough. But it requires establishing a system that keeps track of all phones all the time, constantly triangulating between them all to determine which are moving and which aren’t. Enough nodes will be permanently fixed, like routers and GPS extenders, to relate the moving nodes to the real world without needing a GPS cross-check.
I know there are privacy implications in this, but one way to handle that is to anonymize the data and to monitor everyone. It doesn’t matter who owns the node, just that it exists.
So you have this huge map of all wired and wireless networks. It can be used to warn of a disruption and then to substitute a really good estimate of actual position — Android within a couple meters and iPhones to a centimeter because of that U1 chip. Positioning might be harder for targets out at sea or in the air, but I can think of ways around that, too, at least for Apple.
Thanks to billions of devices, then, we’d have TWO alternative systems that could be used also to check on each other, because if spoofing GPS is out the bad guys will want to spoof any GPS replacement, too.
Only Apple has the end-to-end product ecosystem to simply impose this on the world. Cupertino didn’t ask anyone’s permission to launch iMessage, remember, decimating telco texting in the process. Why should this be different? And I predict that they’ll not only do it, but they’ll do it in 2021, because that will give Apple something new to talk about post-5G.
Since US patent system is first to file… someone could lock the idea surely?
The problem is just that we don’t have enough ground truth. Ground truth consists effectively of GPS satellites that are built at towers in fixed locations. These already exist is some places; their original purpose was to provide extra accuracy where it’s worth it, like near airports. There are just not enough of them, and they need a function added.
This would require an infrastructure buildout, but the cost would be worth it in the face of GPS uncertainty. Building a million or so ground truth stations across the US would be expensive but worth the increased GPS security. That buildout wouldn’t solve the problem for other nations, but it would be a start.
The added functionality would be that they would continually monitor their own locations. If they found themselves drifting, they could immediately inform somebody (FBI, NSA?), and the disruption would be investigated ASAP. With enough ground truth stations, I suspect the source of disruption could be found with the equivalent of triangulation rather quickly.
A great irony would be to build a ground truth station at every VOR station, including all the ones that have been decommissioned due to GPS.
I’ve been worrying about this for decades.
BTW, relatively few IOT devices have GPS in them.
Third,
Just another bullshit Bob.
Attack on any GPS system would be assumed to be act of war.
Swift and immediate response would follow to destroy attacker’s GPS system and that might lead to nuclear war.
That is one thing everyone is aware of except you Bob.
Bob you have been living in your fantasy land for several years.
Bob you really have no idea what the hell you are writing about here. Most high end gps receivers can receive signals from our, Galileo, GLONASS and BeiDou GPS satellites so what is the point to take down ours if gps receivers will still work with 3 others and none will obviously take down all of them including their own.
You simply don’t have anything to mount “swift” response in such case, lol. A year ago Iran killed a hundred of your clowns outright and you only covered in fear. Now the ground is buring under your mercenaries all over ME ans again you can do nothing.
So spare us this jingoistic bullshit which you evidently can’t shore up with any kind of action.
You are just an idiot but we have here 74,222,958 too and once you acclimate yourself to a situation, you become used to it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_B-2_Spirit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_B-1_Lancer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_B-52_Stratofortress
wwwpirate… what if is made just for fun? or to try? or to disconnect/jack/turn of the system for few hours? don’t you thing anybody can think about it and not being an act of war?
An example of vulnerabilities exploited… just for the thrill or doing it? Or worse? Check:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/florida-water-hack-oldsmar-treatment-plant/
Attack on GPS can do only government not individual or group because only a few of them have access to space technology obviously.
He did say the attack may not be a physical attack. It could be hacked, eg, via the ground stations controlling the constellation of satellites. How long has GPS been around? Can we trust old software to not be hackable?
3 other systems (Galileo, GLONASS and BeiDou) are back up hello. Most or all high end receivers work with any/all other systems. 3 back ups hello. Won’t happen – sweet dreams.
Oh, so my smartphone will switch to GLONASS or BeiDuo?
And who is to say that GLONASS or BeiDuo will not be hacked?
You can’t hack something that does not exist online.
GPS project for each country that owes one is a matter of mission critical defense project and also showcase of technological achievement and as such employs the best and the brightest minds, runs for safety purposes on military own fiber and exist probably as intranet only project.
Forgot to mention last time that 2 new GPS satellite projects will come within the next 5-10 years.
After divorcing European Union Great Britain decided to make its own gps project and India I think I read somewhere already had 1 or 2 GPS satellites in space. That will make 5 back up systems total.
Hey, Pirate!
You can’t hack something that does not exist online.
Tell that to TMRC!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tech_Model_Railroad_Club
Bob looking forward to see if your buddy EditorDavid will post this article on Slashdot and if he does looking forward to read comments below that.
Most phones already use wifi signals to rough out a location to within a few hundred meters. It’s used to get faster gps fixes and improve the fix. So if gps drops you’ll still get a pretty good location. If gps is spoofed it’ll just that as truth so there would need to be a software change to deal with that situation but the infrastructure is there and most of the software is there.
Oh wow. This Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) “prediction” is the same old “big name click-bait shout out” followed by a page of bullshit from the same guy who hates “big government” who can’t stop throwing himself at a big corporate sugar daddy. A cloud solution for GPS? What kind of mindfuckery is this? If things are so bad GPS goes down you’re not going to be having an internet. You may not even have any electricity! And as Mark Stephens strangely US-centric worldview continues others have mentioned there is also Galileo, GLONASS and BeiDou. Anyone who matters will have a paper map and a compass, or a sextant. Remember those? Most modern military systems have very advanced positioning systems which work in combination with satellite positioning and may include star positioning or advanced ready reckoning (which has moved on leaps and bounds since the 1980s).
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I would file this whole topic under bullshit and misinformation alternative reality. Also his justification for this is a New York Times opinion piece? American-centric whoo-woo beware the bogeyman lazy paranoia? I’m curious how Mark Stephens gets from this to Apple is saving the world. Like fuck are they and like fuck is Mark Stephens a solution for anything.
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UK can shoot down satellites as well you dumb shit. Fucking hell. We’re the nation that flew a bombing raid down to the Falklands on scrap parts and fresh air so if Mark Stephens doesn’t think we couldn’t take out the entire GPS network by the end of the month if we wanted to he’s dreaming. Yeah, the UK had its own wholly independant space programme until it bought into American lies and gave the rest away which formed the basis of the Arianne programme but that’s another story. Shit for brains we are not.
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Mark Stephens thinks manufacturers are rolling up to make billions of the products with his latest get rich quick idea like he did with his fantasyland Mineserver idea of being bought out for billions by Microsoft? Well not only there alternatives to GPS already being integrated into new products but in all honesty nobody gives a fuck and don’t need this alleged new product Mark Stephens is waving his arms about. There are also dozens of other companies and governments and people out there none of whom wake up every morning masturbating about Apple like Mark Stephens who was not only not employee number whatever but never was an employee.
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It ain’t always about you, sunshine.
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Fuck knows what Slashot will make of this drivel if EditorDavid isn’t too embarassed to post this garbage.
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I’m a sodding hooker and know more about this topic than Mark Stephens (aka Cringely the “tech pundit”) and fuck men who actually design weapon systems or use these systems. You really don’t want to know what they think of Americans. lol
Ha! Ha!
Love that scene in Love Actually when Hugh Grant puts the U.S.A. in its place.
I remember 11 SEP 2001. We were watching the attack on the Twin Towers on an old B&W TV that was just laying around the office. I set it up in the conference room using the built-in rabbits ears. People would wander in and out to watch. One young lady asked, “Who would do this to us?” Someone else said, “America isn’t exactly beloved by everyone else in the world.”
Shortly after that, someone commented on the wobbly look of one building. And then we watched it collapse.
@Gnarfle
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I couldn’t possibly comment. What I was thinking of earlier when I took a second pass of Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) comments was the fact the New York Times dropped him like a hot rock when it turned out he had been exaggerating (aka lying) about IBM. I’m detecting a trace of jealousy and misogyny in his addressing Kate Murphy as “Ms Murphy”.
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Now we already know Mark Stephens has a record of pressuring women hosting conefrences into calling him a “sex symbol” and forcing 1980s style sexism when in the presence of female employees and all on video I might add so this is not a surprise. This is in addition to his fallout with PBS, violence on set, and stealing copyright images for his blog and using copyrighted UK Channel Four footage without permission.
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The NYT article contains a number of interesting points. There is a lot of fingerpointing at the Russians who are notoriously tight lipped but it doesn’t cover two issues: A.) Another actor may have disrupted the system and the Russians may not be happy about that themselves and B.) The US conducts its own GPS disruption exercises. If anyone thinks the Russians cannot disrupt GPS as a valid test within their own territory like the US they are half alseep. Also anyone who thinks the Russians are going to leave out an option when flying bombers over hostile territory is dreaming and, yes, the Penagon admits that Russian countermeasures are ahead of the US so there may be an additional layer of jealousy in there. The rest of the article looks like classic horsetrading. Someone wantsa shiny toy but they are neither prepared to paay up for it out of their budget and even if they get it may not wish to share it with the public so this whole GPS thing is a moot point. Shame on Mark Stephens for not doing his due diligence or reading the article all the way through. If he spent more time on this he’d get further than boasting on Quora about what a real journalist he is (in spite of the last time he was one being years ago when he had an entry level journalism job in the Republic of Ireland and Beirut) just before he became a backoffice press officer claiming to have a Standofr PhD he didn’t have and passed off a plagiarism of Three Mile Island report as his own “in depth” journalism, or going on about flying. Speaking of flying when was the last time he flew a plane? Does he even have a valid pilot licence anymore?
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After all this Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) sneeringly claimed “Ms Murphy” didn’t provide solutions. For a start it’s not her job and she kept her mouth shut rather than look a fool but she did provide a view of what programmes by people who are qualified might be udnerway and what existing alternatives exist. After reading Mark Stephens blog and considering his track record and reading the comments his own readers posted it’s obvious he doesn’t have a clue nor bothered to conduct even a basic sanity test of his latest attempot to get his favourite suger daddy to pay him attention.
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Steve Jobs is dead and he’s not coming back from dead because dead is rather permanent. Nor is Apple a bank which was another of Mark Stephens arm waving get rich quick schemes. Nor did Mark Cuban invest in this blog and Mark Stephens “sure thing” Cringely Youtube channel is dead with only a handful of now ancient videos. In fact the only reason Mark Stephens is able to get away with using the name “Robert X. Cringely” which is owned by the now defunt InfoWorld is because of a technicality. His wiki page continues to make grand claims about his employment which are not true. He does not write for the publications claimed and none of them will touch him. As well as defunct InfoWorld the also defunct “Adam Smith’s Money World” was also a trademark hijack by another shady character off the back of a real news show, and all the nasty lurid details exosing him as a liar have been “reputation washed” by relatives or friends acting on his behalf if not Mark Stephens himself. “Money World” and Mark Stephens tried to cash in on the post-soviet collapse but were told to shoo off. As we know the bulk of ark Stephens money came off advising Japanese busienssmen who were led to believe he was a Silicon Valley insider years after he actually left Silicon Valley. Now all this has dried up and nobody in mainstream media nor investors will touch him we’re just left with this decaying blog by an ex now failed journalist who robbed his own readers to the tune of $30,000 for a Mineserver product which never arrived. So who in their right mind would pay any attention to this latest “prediction”?
Trash talk: For a guy that likes to trash “Cringely’s entertainment”, I wonder why the heck you’re on his blog at all. There isn’t a scientist worth his salt that would disagree that ‘the enemy’ CAN shoot down GPS system satellites. Cringely is looking to the future, projecting solutions to a real problem. For that, you trash talk him. Oh, and if you think that Apple won’t become a financial system provider – even though to date, nothing has been released – you’d be categorized as an idiot.
As was shown in 2 recent NY Times articles on cell phone data tracking, it doesn’t take more than careful, steady observation to de-anonymize anonymous data.
Why would Apple and Google even have to bother, when the US government could just get Eldorado Space on the line and have them fix the whole problem in less than a day?
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After all, as Bob Cringely said over a year ago:
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For example, the national security market is lately interested in rapid response launches, which to them means putting little satellites into precision orbits on 24-hour notice. That’s not so difficult, but few companies can then launch a second rocket 24 hours after the first. In contrast, we’ve offered to launch on FOUR hours notice and then launch again every TWO hours after that until they tell us to stop. So if Bond villain Ernst Blofeld, for example, figured out a way to take down the GPS system, we could replace the whole constellation in less than a day, then do it all over again as often as needed. That would probably deter Dr. Evil from even trying his trick in the first place.
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It’s all so simple! I mean, apart from the fact that Bob lied about owning all the Mach 2.2+ aircraft in the world, and the only “proof” he ever offered for this claim was an obvious and blatant Photoshop of a picture of a F-104 from Starfighters, the owner of whom categorically denied that “Eldorado” had done anything else with Starfighters than metaphorically “kick the tires”.
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But, you know. You do you, Bob. Or Mark. Or whoever.
Link to the Eldorado “story” (since this amazingly functional website ate the URL link:)
https://www.cringely.com/2020/01/23/not-dead-yet-what-bob-cringely-has-been-up-to/
https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/10/eight_arrested_sim_swapping_scam/
More evidence that Brits are stilled pist about 1776 and 1812 . . . and WWI and WWII.
Onward!
It gets better if you do a basic sanity test… Does the F-104 even have a hardpoint or place you can mount a hardpoint to carry the combined payload of a rocket plus GPS satellite with itself has a mass of anywhere between 1,600kg and 3,880kg? Wiki has a page on air launch to orbit. There is no mention it on this page but I can’t even do the maths to calculate theoretical capabilities based on maximum height and range and the funky bits about getting to orbit let alone the correct orbit. For reference Northrop Grumman’s Pegasus has a mass of 18,500kg and Pegasus XL has a mass of 23,130kg for carrying a payload of 443kg. The empty weight of the F-104 is 6,350kg and maximum takeoff weight is 13,166 kg. Assuming Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) is able to produce a rocket with similar capabilities and specifications as Northrup Grumnan (doubtful) the F-104 would collapse on its own undercarriage let alone take off. And Mark Stephens claims not only to be a potential Nobel prize winning rocket engineer (or maybe one of his “friends” is) but also claims to be a qualified pilot.
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I’m a hooker and I even I know a Cessna wouldn’t take off with an elephant tied to its ass.
Another though-provoking column from Cringely. Hopefully the GPS system can be hardened before there’s a catastrophic failure. The comments would be far more interesting without the endless hatred from a troll like trashtalk.
You have nothing to think WITH, lol.
Trashtalk is making a lot more sense than Cringely on this topic. Read Cringely’s article at Jeremy Reimer’s link, then come back and tell us what you think.
Bob the comedian. Have any of the big tech companies shown a great interest in anonymizing data – making it less valuable to them? Oh they’re all on board with the monitoring everyone part, and any excuse to snarf up more data is fine for them. But respecting privacy? LOL
If you’re looking for prediction topics, Bob, here’s one:
COVID taught businesses all around the developed world most of their office-based work can be accomplished remotely by their employees at home.
So businesses all around the developed world will also learn most of their office-based work can be accomplished remotely by new employees in Mumbai and Manilla. Or somewhere we haven’t even thought of, but immune to things like A.C.A. and OSHA and minimum wage and 401k benefits.
Does anyone else remember Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) plan to turn every mobile phone in the world into a tsunami detection device for a bazillionth the cost of and beating established systems not just by minutes but hours and saving milllions of lives? The only difference between then and now is Mark Stephens hasn’t paid attention to anything. Not privacy. Not whether it will actually work.
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Mark Stephens goes on to opine that you cannot rely on BIG GOVERMENT and their systems will be too EXPENSIVE and he, only he with his UNIQUE INSIGHT has the solution. A simple glance through wiki shows the Japnese system gave warnings measured in minutes and has since been upgraded to be even quicker. Sometimes even a three minute warning isn’t quick enough if the epicentre is very close. The Japanese government system also uses hardened communciation channels for the military and is warnings are integrated with the telecoms system as well as sirens.
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Mark Stephens argued that the big EVIL central government will take years wrangling over whether to spend the money if they ever do and it must be the BEACH PEOPLE who do it themselves and SAVE themselves. The facts are the Japanese government did spend the money and those who had three minutes warning on one island had died as they were running to safety. Wrong on both counts. I’m seeing a trace of the dogma which has Mark Stephens carpet chewing over home schooling.
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In another blog Mark Stephens is boasting about doing business in Japan for 20 years and obsessing Fukishama. Mark Stephens not only FORESAW the SOLUTION but WEEKS in advance. Yes, this NEW and UNTESTED handwavy nano and biotech that he and only he the PROPHET could bring to Japan because because because (dramatic lip quiver) PLUTONIUM.
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Woven in among this is Mark Stephens classic don’t just go big GO BIGGER way of TALKING himself out of trouble and lots of unverifiable and handwavy magic and YOU yes you THE MASSES have the solution. All soon forgotten as be bounces on to the next BIGGER and more MAGICAL scam. The last person who did this caused a riot.
Ground Based Augmentation System (enhanced GPS) are being deployed around airport for sometime and there are thousands of airplanes already using the system.
These ground shielded points, surveyed and verified, have proven that a solution exists.
@Trashette!
Basic sanity test?
Couldn’t pass. Thanks for letting me play!
If you’re going to credibly write about these topics — instead of simply regurgitating others’ work for lay(wo)man audiences — please at least familiarize yourself with NextGen GPS, Differential GPS, X-ray pulsar GPS, radio-based LORAN, and the 2015 DARPA paper outlining same.
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And feel free to reply “2015 is so long ago it doesn’t even matter” — at which point we’ll delve into a longer discussion concerning promised deadlines and tardy delivery dates.
Apparently hedge funds are now hiring so-called “meme hunters” off the back of this Gamestop nonsense. Is anyone hiring Mark Stephens (aka Cringely)?
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[CUT TO ALTERNATIVE REALITY]
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The broadcast changes with a Star Wars style screen wipe to the left as the overpadded and overglossy spinning 3D logo of “I, Cringely” swings into view and Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) is standing their chest puffed out holding a pen to their air like the cartoon introduction of HE MAN with lots of lightning and thumping music.
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[BACK IN REALITY]
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Probably not…
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Sorry I’m just playing hunt the dodgy paragraph in an epic I wrote while bored. Client emails to deal with so I’ll get on with that instead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satellite_navigation
It seems Japan will have fully operational gps satellite system (centimeter resolution) in 2023 named QZSS and it will be based on our system and also it seems Australia will deploy that Japanese system too.
https://www.gpsworld.com
This is web page that I use to get all latest news about gps development and new fancy gps hardware. They do not refresh web page often so I go there once a week.
@wwwpirate
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Only Galileo has 1cm (encrypted) resolution. Beidou and Navic and QZNSS have 0.1m (encrypted) resolution.
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All the others have degrees of pronounceable names apart from QZNSS. There are pragmatic geopolitical considerations for QZNSS. Japan tends to be all in on sourcing US based hardware in exchange for a defence pact. Australia is building closer ties with Japan on immigration and trade as this is their region. Being out in the middle of nowhere also tends to influence Australia’s sourcing of long range strategic bombers more than interceptors.
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I don’t refresh my page often but have clients and prospective clients especially who regularly visit. What a coincidence! I have Australian clients. No Russians, Chinese, or Americans so far. The hurdles Americans have to go through to book an escort? It’s as easy as ordering a pizza in the UK. The countryside lifestyle. Nobody waving a gun in your face. I’m surprised I don’t get more American clients.
https://www.gpsworld.com/anatomy-of-a-centimeter-level-precise-point-positioning-service/
Just about any gps satellite system can give you centimeter resolution but you need an additional signal from base station and special antenna and special receiver to receive it. All major top of the line gps manufacturers like Trimble and Furuno sell it to anyone who wants to buy one.
https://geospatial.trimble.com/products-and-solutions/gnss-systems
That is called differential gps.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_GPS
Result is 1 to 3 cm accuracy depending how far you are from base station and weather conditions.
Depends on what one means by the phrase “waving a gun in your face.” /RIMSHOT\
@wwwpirate
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But with Galileo 1cm accuracy is built in? No need for base stations?
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https://gssc.esa.int/navipedia/index.php/Galileo_High_Accuracy_Service_(HAS)
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No you have to have base station to have differential gps.
https://marxact.com/support/what-is-the-difference-between-standalone-differential-gps-and-real-time-kinematic/
or video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf8ALAptCxs
Everyone is jumping on gps satellite bandwagon because they are actually protected spy centers. First generations worked on 12 channels – 2 were for navigation, 2 for meteorology and rest 8 were used for spying. Nowadays they used hundreds of channels of which same as with first generation only a few are for navigation and meteorology and all the rest are for spying on everyone and everywhere including (probably) their own citizens.
That really is great – on one hand it is if you touch my gps satellite it will be nuclear war on the other hand is I am spying on you and you can’t do anything about that. It is really easy to get financing for those – Congress or Parliament or whoever approves money knows it is protected spy center and it is easy to fool general population with that is gps and we really need and love gps.
You must have missed or misunderstood Trashtalk’s reference to PPP and explanation that it works *without* differential GPS (“without the need for nearby reference stations”) by transmitting orbital and timing corrections from the satellites and measuring carrier phase offsets at the receivers.
But you would need to have a basic understanding of how GPS-like systems work to follow this, and few laypeople do. I work on GPS test systems (of the type Garmin, who is one of our customers, uses to test receivers), and I must say I’m impressed with Trashtalk’s knowledge on the topic, given the line of work claimed.
Your reference to spying gives away your lack of understanding – GPS geolocation by itself is a one-way transmission from satellites to receiver (yes the satellites have command and control receivers but the GPS receiver in your phone can’t talk to them). GPS by itself can’t spy on anything, where the spying comes in is your phone giving up your geolocation (which it computed from received GPS signals) over its data connection (cell tower or wifi). More GPS channels won’t facilitate spying but can be used for encrypted signals intended for high-resolution military use and allowing for manipulation of non-encrypted channels to stymie enemy use of the system while maintaining accuracy on the military channels.
I am pretty sure I got that information about gps satellites as spy center/number of channels from engineers from Marconi at that time (95% sure that 5% is I did not have grey hair at that time) and no doubt you are into it but why is not possible to use gps satellites as spy centers ? I am not talking about frequencies here military will use different frequencies for spying of course. Why is not possible of concept of satellite within satellite ? Doesn’t military use geostationary satellites too ? Can you communicate with one satellite on different frequencies ? Just curious you know.
To make long story very short can you use just one third of the satellite for gps and communicate with that part on gps frequencies and use rest of the satellite 2/3 for something else and communicate with that part of the satellite on different frequency ?
For some reason I can’t leave my comment here. Frustrating because I spent a fair amount of time on it.
Damn filters! No idea what might be tripping it…
Basically my intended comment amounted to sure it’s possible but that would likely be classified information that Marconi wouldn’t have been at liberty to disclose. Perhaps you had a clearance but then you wouldn’t be disclosing it publicly here in that case.
And thanks for your commentary about Marconi back in the day. I never come across Marconi branded equipment any more and always wondered whatever became of them.
Anyone in the Western civilized world who has knowledge of ‘other functions GPS satellites serve beyond GPS’ should certainly know enough not to pontificate about same on this or any public forum.
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I’m not blaming or singling anyone out — no hidden message or targeted attacks — simply advising caution.
It seems Bob has been called away to Japan to coordinate recovery efforts in the aftermath of the most recent earthquake.
Good luck and Godspeed!
@wwwpirate
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Galileo uses PPP not RTK. The point is PPP is more accurate out of the box without the extra fixed points RTK needs if I’m reading things properly.
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I’m not sure what you mean by spying. Yes attacking any GNSS would be a very drastic event but not provoke an auto-fire nor a nuclear response by default. If someone said the response checklist is a hundred pages long involving mutiple personnel and agencies I wouldn’t be surprised. Anyone trying anything too stupid would likely be executed by their own side and their body dumped in the street. By and large Russia is historically a very sane adversary and I expect China isn’t daft either. The US is the bigger worry and there’s enough documentary evidence of trigger happy hotheads having to be reigned in to prove it. In that respect multiple GNSS helps world security because destruction of one leaves the others up as a shared resource while the situation is politically managed. The biggest use of GNSS now isn’t for its original purpose which is to provide guidance for strategic submarine platforms but now mostly conventional and civilian use. Loads of advanced platforms only need GNSS as a backup due to satellite ground mapping. Tanks find GNSS useful but even then mostly in tundra or desert scenarious where visual ready reckoning is not an option.
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I can live without GNSS. I know how to use a map and a compass. Good luck hacking that!
And Walther uses PPK.
Bond. James Bond
GPS satellites use very high frequency radio waves (in the L band, between one and two GHz), which can’t penetrate more than a few inches of sea water so gps was never considered as submarine navigation system except to be used just as reference point.
They use inertia navigation system and cable laid down on sea floor marked on specific points. Besides that there are 2 articles from 2016 about system that has been probably at least partially implemented in practice:
https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2016/06/its-gps-underwater-for-robots/486656/
https://www.wired.com/2016/05/darpa-wants-underwater-gps-system-seafaring-robots/
@wwwpirate
Submarines, ICBM’s, whatever. I noticed you ducked the difference between the out of the box Galileo GNSS performance versus GNSS with aftermarket add-ons! This reminds me of an old WWII joke: “When the English bomb the Germans the Germans put their heads down. When the Germans bomb the English the English put their heads down. When the Americans bomb everyone puts their heads down!”
I am pretty familiar with first generation gps because we were told pretty much a lot about it from engineers from Marconi Company who worked in their Research&Development Department. They were one of the main subcontractors for the first generations gps so they knew just about everything about that.
Second and what is now third generation of gps I have no inside information but know only what I get mostly online.
At that time they showed to us all of their research and development pipeline like color radars and soft touch buttons, Decca and Omega receivers and communication radios which was really impressive and it is impressive even by what is technology today. Years after we had seen their upcoming products in development Swedish Robertson and Danish Sailors came on the market with those products (radars and VHF radios) and I was always wandering how come the Scandinavians got them on the market and not Marconi and about a week ago I went to Wikipedia and found out that Swedish Ericsson bought the Marconi Company shut it down and their companies got Marconi’s development products to the market.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marconi_Company
@trashtalk: Perhaps you’re just parroting what you’ve read but you seem to have a fairly good grasp of the technical workings of global satellite navigation systems. I would say you’re reading things properly.
@wwwpirate: I was working on color weather radar, OMEGA, LORAN, and later GPS test systems in the ’80’s and ’90’s at the company (King Radio) that spawned Garmin when early GPS satellites were being deployed and the system was first approved for civilian use (I knew Garmin co-founder Gary Burrell and had worked closely with his engineering department during developement of Mode-S Transponder and TCAS Traffic Collision Avoidance Systems). I found your story about Marconi back in the day interesting, so let me tell you about Garmin’s origins – another corporate screw-up story:
King Radio Corporation was a privately-held business owned by Ed King that produced avionics equipment (NAV, COMM, ATC, Weather RADAR) mostly for the non-commercial private aviation market when I came to work there in the Calibration Lab servicing test equipment in 1984. Ed King retired and sold the company to Bendix, who later merged with Allied-Signal. It was during this time that GPS was approved for civilian use and Burrell’s department went to work developing navigation receivers using the system. During development the engineers quickly realized that the scope of demand for such a product would span well beyond the aviation industry to include ships, taxis, and once it got cheap enough, everyone else. Burrell and Min Kao (the GARMIN name comes from GARy burrell and MIN kao) pitched a proprosal to management to expand development beyond the narrow aviation market and produce receivers for the much wider general market. Allied-Signal CEO Larry Bossidy, a disciple of Jack Welch, nixed the idea, citing Welch’s philosophy of focusing on core competency and outsourcing everything else. So Burrell and Kao took advantage of the opportunity they had recognized and left Allied-Signal to form what became Garmin (originally named ProNav). Allied-Signal tried to sue against Burrell and Kao’s non-compete agreements, but as they had declined to compete in the general market the suit got tossed and Garmin was free to market GPS receivers for everything except aircraft until the non-compete clauses expired. About a year or so later Bossidy held a state-of-the-company address at a hotel nearby to the Bendix/King division. During the question and answer session following his presentation a woman raised her hand and asked simply “What about Garmin”? You could hear a pin drop as Bossidy’s face turned bright red. He finally admitted “Garmin was a mistake, but we’ll correct that mistake, we’re going to bury Garmin”. Laughter broke out – none of us could hold it back. It was clear that Garmin had already won and there wasn’t anything Allied-Signal could do about it. A few years later the non-compete clauses expired and Garmin, led by experienced avionics engineers, started development on next-generation avionics for the general-aviation market that Bendix/King serves. Today Garmin leads the market and the Bendix/King division of Honeywell (which was bought by Allied-Signal in 1999) is a tiny shell of its former glory. I haven’t worked there since 1995 but last time I visited the factory it looked like a ghost-town.
Now THIS is weird. I just took a trip down memory lane and find myself contradicted by the Bendix/King History page:
https://www.bendixking.com/en/about-us/history
That page says Allied bought Bendix and King Radio in 1983 and combined the two. This definitely contradicts my recollection. I currently work with a couple of former King Radio employees who were there before I started, so I’ll ask them for their recollections tomorrow.
I know for a fact that I started at King Radio in 1984 in the Olathe, KS plant (there were three other King plants in nearby Kansas towns Lawrence, Ottawa, and Paola). I remember being introduced to CEO and Founder Ed King in the lunchroom shortly after joining the company. Really nice guy and a great guy to work for. It seems like about a year later King announced his retirement and told us he would be leaving us in good hands, having made a deal to sell the company to Bendix. I remember being glad to hear it, as my dad had worked for Bendix in Kansas City from before I was born until 1967 when he went to work at Boeing, and then again at another Bendix plant half a continent away from 1971 to 1976 after the huge Boeing SST layoff, so I knew they were a solid company. King Radio sold company-logo’d apparel in the stockroom and I used to have a King Radio hat that I bought shortly after joining the company. I clearly remember the short time when we could buy King/Bendix hats and jackets from the company stockroom before the deal went through, and that once it was completed Bendix said “uh, no – it’s Bendix/King” and made them destroy the old ones and replace them. The King/Bendix apparel that had been sold to employees became a much desired and cherished commodity – I sure wish I had bought one! My recollection is that Allied bought Bendix shortly thereafter and then merged with Signal a short time after that in rapid succession. AllidSignal later bought Honeywell and adopted their name a few years after I left the company.
That’s my recollection. I’ll update after speaking with others who were there at the time.
OK, I just read Ed King’s obituary and this confirms my recollection:
https://obits.oregonlive.com/obituaries/oregon/obituary.aspx?n=edward-j-king&pid=158017621
“In 1985, Ed King Jr. sold King Radio to Allied Signal/Bendix Aerospace and retired”
Except that as I recall it was just Bendix at the time of sale but quickly became part of Allied-Signal in a rapid series of acquisitions and mergers. I recall having received paychecks from King Radio Corporation, Bendix/King, and Allied-Signal Aerospace during my time there.
Thank you for sharing stories. You can’t find those stories anywhere else. I always thought Honeywell acquired Allied Signal.
You really got me back in time. My first GPS receiver was Magnavox MX-1102 – picture here
http://mmncny.org/collections/satelite-navagator/
You would wait for satellite to fly over your position (about every 2 an half to 3 and half hours), it would acquire data and it would take about 10 minutes to calculate position and it would show dead reckoning position between fixes. Best of all was sound it made during acquiring data and announcing satellite fix is ready to view. It was sound of baby chicken that is lost and looking for momy piuu piuu piuu – you could not miss it – it would go straight into your brain.
Those were good times alone in the middle of the ocean awaiting that sound while listening to BBC World Service (the only station you can get) on my Sony portable shortwave radio.
“I always thought Honeywell acquired Allied Signal.”
That would be the logical assumption but it was the other way around. Those of us who once worked there now refer to it as “FunnySmell”.
BTW: I answered your other comment but for some reason it isn’t going through. I’ll keep trying.
@wwwpirate
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What happened to Marconi is similar to what happened to ICI. Management got out of their depth and made stupid investments. ICI barked up the wrong tree and also offloaded assets. The collapse of Marcon was a real scandal at the time and still stings. You can add the sell off of ARM to the list. As for Brexit…
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My brain is lagging. I woke up half way through the night and going back to bed again. Pandemic… My brain needs a rest and I have a safe restart of business to navigate.
@Freeman
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Thanks for the complement. I just have management and technical and other skills and did some quick background reading and applied some logic. I have read a lot and watched a lot of documentary type stuff so have more background material to pull on when need be. I’m not expert in GNSS and only discovered the differences between different GNSS systems after just reading about it.
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I do sex work and there are reasons for that. It’s company of a sorts and a means to an end. It can be nice too at times like anything. I’d yack on about it more but emotionally processing a lot of stuff.
You’re very welcome. I’m familiar with your line of work, having read your comments for many years on this forum (you’re one if my favorites and I always read what you have to share). I’ve always been impressed with your technical knowledge and understanding. You seem very well-read, with very good comprehension skills. It’s a great way to learn things for those who are able. Cheers!
@Crowds of Madness – OFF TOPIC (Like everything else I post!)
Wikipedia seems consistent in labeling the Beach Boys as a rock band.
?HUH?
My son likes a band named Dance Gavin Dance. He used to like Black Veil Brides.
They’re all listed as “rock bands”. Just because Billy Joel labeled it all rock’n’roll doesn’t mean he’s right.
My mom found nothing in the Beach Boys with which to be offended. When John Lennon was gunned down, she said, “I never thought much of him.” And I’m pretty sure she couldn’t have picked any of the Stones out of a line-up.
And I don’t think she knew Will Smith started out as a “rapper”. She found him very likable as an actor.
Go figure.
Well. Back to the bit mines . . .
15th Feb. One whole calendar month since Bob stated that:
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“The last of these prediction columns will be an update on my Mineserver project that, but that will be 7-10 days from now.”
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I’m sorry to say, but only his ardent fans are here and even us have realised any credibility Bob had has long since left…
If Apple did it, it would be done in such a way that you would require an Apple only device, instead of an open standard for any device could participate. If Google did it, Apple wouldn’t agree to have their devices participate.
[BEFORE THE MINESERVER FINALE THERE WILL NOW BE AN INTERMISSION]
Six months later… and later… and *drumroll* later…
“Your comment is awaiting moderation”… that’s new.
Must have been all the links. Ironically, they were all direct links to Bob Cringely’s posts.
Let’s try it without the links:
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A short history of Mineserver:
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2015
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September 29: Mineserver announced
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October 21: Mineserver Kickstarter campaign closes:
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December 14: “All these Mineservers will ship this week”
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2016
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January 28: “Better late than never! 425 units burned in and ready to go”
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March 17: “Sorry to have gone so long without an update. We won’t do THAT again.”
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November 10: “We’ll finally start shipping the week after Thanksgiving.” LAST POST EVER ON KICKSTARTER
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2017
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May 22: “The pitch must have worked, because we’ve found just enough investors to move on to the next level, which is shipping our current orders.”
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2018
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May 21: “Every supporter will get their Mineserver before the end of the year.”
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2019
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January 28: “We have a good product and a great marketing plan… if it weren’t for those darned pitchforks.”
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2020
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January 23: “So unless YOU want to step up, that means I will have to earn the matching money on my own, which is what I have been trying to do with my other startup, Eldorado Space.”
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2021
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January 15: “The last of these prediction columns will be an update on my Mineserver project that, but that will be 7-10 days from now.”
I might add
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“This is our 25th update on the Mineserver project. That’s a lot of updates for people who don’t do enough updates.” [May 2017]
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And
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[June/July-ish 2020] Cringely’s blog ban-filtering the keyword “Kickstarter” until noticed + undone.
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I point these out, specifically, because — above and beyond mere overwhelmed procrastination — there’s a weird backstage attitude about this whole thing. Which, eerily, hearkens back to
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“I don’t care about this, and why should I bother to show you my diploma? I worked for 31 years as a reporter and I don’t care about your story.” [Apr 2001]
@Questionable_PhD, I found the link for that story: https://archives.stanforddaily.com/1998/11/11?page=12§ion=MODSMD_ARTICLE1#article
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The lying really started early with Bob. And when called on it, he replied with the same indignation that he does today.
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Some people don’t change!
Badges? What Badges? We don’t need no stinkin’ badges!
Where were badges mentioned?
Hey, RonC!
I was punning off of this idea . . .
“I don’t care about this, and why should I bother to show you my diploma? I worked for 31 years as a reporter and I don’t care about your story.” [Apr 2001]
In other words, Diploma? What diploma? We don’t need no stinkin’ diploma!
Where in the World Is Roger Sinasohn ?
Roger is like Red Bull Energy Drink (ad slogan – Vitalizes Body and Mind). He brings passion and energy to this web side besides he is smart guy.
With all respect to all of you guys who complain about Mineserves nobody does it as good as Roger.
I suspect Roger (who, I agree, does seem like a good guy) will come back when (if) Cringely actually posts his Mineserver update.
The honest answer to that question is: go to Cringely’s Wikipedia page. Roger is waist-deep in an edit war (see Talk/History).
Looks like Roger gave up around March of 2019. All I could find was this: “Final warning: Adding unreferenced controversial information about living persons.”
and this:
“You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you violate Wikipedia’s biographies of living persons policy by inserting unsourced or poorly sourced defamatory or otherwise controversial content into an article or any other Wikipedia page. Qzd (talk) 21:39, 9 March 2019 (UTC)”
That whole Wikipedia edit war was somewhat sketchy. Sure, I can understand that as a Wikipedia admin you probably have to default to being very careful on what you allow in biographies. But it’s hard to understand how links to a bunch of posts that Cringely made himself is considered “unsourced or poorly sourced”. It’s literally first-hand information!
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The other thing I didn’t understand was the creepy, visceral glee that some anonymous posters on cringely.com had when Roger’s wikipedia edits were reverted. That felt a bit strange.
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Anyway, all the even-vaguely controversial content has been scrubbed from his page now, even the well-sourced “fake PhD” section. The last sentence reads: “Today, his writings can be found at his own I, Cringely site[10] and at Adam Smith’s Money World.[11]” but the link to the latter is dead, as the site itself has been since 2016!! Using the Wayback Machine, I found that Cringely only wrote for that site from Jan-May 2010.
Ah, a little more research shows that the “Adam Smith” of Adam Smith’s Money World, which started life as a PBS show, was one George Goodman, who died in 2014 aged 83. He and Cringely were listed as founders on the website, which was a for-profit business with advertising, and were the only two columnists on the site. George stopped posting in Feb 2010, probably for health reasons, and Bob continued on until the end of the year, at which point the site was unchanged until it went offline in 2016 (probably when the domain expired).
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It’s a small side-story in the whole Cringely drama, but I hadn’t heard about it before.
Once can start to sense a pattern, though, where Cringely repeatedly leaves (or is removed from) paying online column gigs. Starting with Infoworld, which ended in 1995 and was contentious enough to have legal battles, then a long-running gig at PBS (1998-2008), Adam Smith’s Money World (2010-2010) and more recently Forbes (2014-2016), and Seeking Alpha (2016-2016).
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Something seems to have happened in 2016 that basically ended Cringely’s online income stream. Was it the Mineserver drama? Unlikely, as it was still an active project back then and still being updated on Kickstarter. Something to do with IBM reporting?
OFF TOPIC
Dark Grey letters on a Black background.
I can barely find anything on modern electronics anymore.
I have to carry a small flashlight of at least 300 lumens in order to do anything useful.
I’m looking at you, Dell! And you, Funai!
Excited to see the conclusion of the Mineserver brouhaha. It must be right around the corner now!
I read through Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) first Seeking Alpha topic and his replies to the comments and you know what? It’s exhausting reading his bullshit. Responding to one allegation Stephens is also quick to hairsplit and say he didn’t call an executive a liar but called him a dissembler. Being British I’m more than familiar with the kinds of behaviours and language of spivs and spiv politicians over here and I am not fooled one iota. I wouldn’t be surprised if Stephens picked up his bullishness and being “clever” with words at the English private school he attended on a scholarship. See also “bullshit baffles brains” and “the only crime is being caught”.
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Oh here we go… Mark Stephens ran this article past an old CFO “friend”. Then we have his comment “make a pig’s ear into almost a silk purse”. Yes, this dates him. It was a pretty comman saying in England. I have no idea of its American usage. Also “As CFO he took public several companies over 40 years and sold or merged the rest — a 100 percent success rate” and “If the financial team is driving business groupings, it will end up a problem.” How much Stephens “friend” is marking his own homework or not we don’t know. Also the meat of his “friend’s” comment is generic. I could write that. as for “optimal efficiency”? Efficient is not always effective nor is it resilient.
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I have some interest in aRM so had a look at Mark Stephens article on the ARM takeover by Softbank. Right at the top Stephens is saying his favourite sugar daddy should have bought ARM. Why? ARMs entire business was built on making a general CPU available to the whole market not optimising for one vertically integrated company. That was the whole point! Plus anti-monopoly regulators… Then he goes off on one about TMSC and bleats but it’s CPU design not a fab plant. Then Stephens argues ARM should become Quallcom to unlock another $50 billion in alleged value. How’s that Mineserver project going?…
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As for the editors note?
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Fuck off.
While we wait for (Godot?) the Mineserver article, it might be worthwhile going through a couple more of those Seeking Alpha articles. I registered for the site back in 2016, because I was actually interested in Bob’s view of IBM (as a fan of Triumph of the Nerds and computer history in general).
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In an article titled “IBM’s Turnaround Shows Little Promise” there is some great back and forth in the comments:
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Cringely: “Disclosure: I/we have no positions in any stocks mentioned, and no plans to initiate any positions within the next 72 hours. I wrote this article myself, and it expresses my own opinions.”
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Cringely: “As the writer of this post and a tech blogger since 1997 I want to inject an idea here that some of you don’t really get what blogs are about. I’m criticized for not presenting an airtight thesis that sets all of you silently back on your heels. “Shit, Cringely nailed it, I may as well sell.” That’s not the point. Blogs are about discussion, about the back-and-forth between you people. Here we have 60+ comments (so far) creating a wide-ranging discussion that I think says more than I ever could as the originator of the post. Many are speaking from experience, which is important. Have you noticed how few investors comment in terms of their own experience of ANYTHING? That’s why such commenters provide mainly noise.”
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(editor’s note: I love this dichotomy, which I’ve seen Bob post in his own comment threads, whereby comments are simultaneously the most important and most useless part of any article)
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Commenter: “Forgot to put this in the above. If all is lost, and the company is doomed, why is the author not short, or at least hold some long term puts? But no position at all?”
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Cringely: “This is a question that deserves an answer. I am not long or short ANY public companies because my entire investment portfolio is in angel investments in technology startups. After following this path for 30+ years my results are not anywhere near those of a Peter Thiel or Jim Bidzos, but they are very positive and my kids WILL have something to fight over when I am gone — more than if I had invested in the S&P 500. But just because I choose to invest in this way doesn’t mean I ignore what’s happening among public companies, some of which compete with my startups.”
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(editor’s note: “Yeah, man, I’m waaaay more hipster than YOU, I only invest in companies you’ve probably never heard of…” How’s the tinfoil hard drive company doing these days, anyway?)
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Commenter: “From this reply, unfortunately I have to say that your credibility is next to zero.” […] “Charlie Munger again NEVER EVER said he would prefer this investment had never happened. He has said “I am not a believer nor a disbeliever.”
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Cringely: “That’s what Charlie told ME when I asked him. I’m sure he won’t deny saying it. Too much of the analysis on Seeking Alpha is like studying the Torah. Sometimes it’s better to just pick up the phone and ask God a question.”
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(editor’s note: We’ve seen this play many times before… Bob claiming insider access to top billionaires. I mean, yeah, he interviewed Steve Jobs and Steve Ballmer back in the 1990s, but there’s a difference between doing interviews for PBS documentaries and being so buddy-buddy with the richest folks in the world that you can just pick up the phone and talk to them at any time…)
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I still can’t figure out why he stopped posting for Seeking Alpha in late 2016, because the posts he was paid for seemed to spark a lively discussion, and one of them was even given an “Editor’s Pick”, and I’m sure the site paid well enough. But that’s enough Cringeology for today.
Here we risk delving into areas of Mr. Stephens’ life which are not meant for the public — and, contrary to my typical screed, I DO believe the gentleman deserves some privacy — where the two worlds get blurry are “personal setbacks offered up as business excuses,” and “naming his pre-teen children as C-level entrepreneurs,” and commingling his predictive tech savvy with his friendships, off-the-clock hobnobbing, family’s future inheritance, etc.
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So:
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The much-talked-about Mineserver laser cutter which burst aflame (twice!) came from a ‘startup biz’ called San Francisco Laser Cutting, briefly helmed by one Marc Roth. In fact, Marc was the guy who “drove two hours” to the Stephens residence to fix the crispy laser cutter in question.
Mr. Roth and his shop were specifically named and lauded by Pres. Obama at the White House in 2014. Marc was (and as of 2020 remains) homeless, save for a time-bounded window wherein he was “funded by A STEALTH INVESTOR.” The rest of Mr. Roth’s story should be perused via casual Web research, but, suffice to say, it didn’t go well, and it wasn’t (isn’t) pretty.
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This seems commensurate with the author’s gradually-shrinking spheres of influence, first a first- or second-rank pundit rubbing elbows with the elite, then an aging no-longer-vital literatist with some waning “remember when” influence, then a cloistered zany-idea kook with severely tarnished track record, “living off his wife’s salary,” “no money in the mainstream stock market,” and “entirely angel investments in [Marc Roth?? Eldorado Space??] technology startups.” He’s not alone in this plight. No one’s time in the sun lasts forever.
Wow, that’s an interesting story about Marc Roth. He seems to be constantly going up and down in life, starting as a well-paid programmer, then homeless, then doing the Tech Shop laser cutter thing, getting invited to the White House, then Tech Shop closed down and he was homeless again, then he got a job at Waymo and was earning six figures, then he left that job to be an Uber driver, then he was homeless again. It’s kind of dizzying trying to follow it all.
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Cringely does seem to be going down the slow slide into irrelevance path that you described, and that we all end up at in the end, no matter how famous (or infamous) we were in the intervening time. But what’s still interesting (at least to me) about Cringely’s story is how he bolstered his own sense of self-worth with countless little lies, lies which followed him around in his “official” biographies whenever he launched into a new online space.
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None of those lies were necessary. Triumph of the Nerds would have been just as good (better, even!) if Cringely didn’t falsely claim to be Apple Employee #12. He could have interviewed Dan Kotte, the real employee #12, instead, and made the Apple story more human and more interesting. Claiming to invent the Trash Can didn’t help him sell tinfoil-based hard drives. And so on.
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Now as his influence wanes, the lies get larger. Eldorado Space! It becomes ludicrous, a sad parody. And he still clings to the Mineserver thing, as if anyone still cares!
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Well, I suppose we still care. We want to see an end to the story. But it doesn’t look like we’ll get one.
I’ve just had a look at his Wikipedia page and someone has whitewashed it. No balance and no fair representation of Mark Stephens at all. There should be a section for controversies at least, and both his fake Ph.D., and Minecraft server project should be in there. And it’s fair because he used the Ph.D. claim to give credence to his opinion, and use that credence to take investors money for the Minecraft servers.
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In short, he’s a con-artist.
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As for Marc Roth – that is a sad story. I’ve just read about it and quite frankly, he comes across as a bum. One definitely with borderline mental health issues. He seems to have been given many helps up and completely screws them up every single time. What a waste.
https://venturebeat.com/2013/05/16/homeless-to-hacker-how-the-maker-movement-changed-one-mans-life/
And the follow-up:
https://makezine.com/2020/08/19/plan-c-a-homeless-maker-in-san-francisco/
I brought up Roth for a specific reason (which was, arguably, a bit cryptic) — he embodies and plays a central role in the ‘innovative cycle’ through which Cringe repeatedly spirals.
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(2012-ish) 44th US Pres launches various small + inner-city biz programs
(2013-ish) California boat-club flunkie David Lang dips his feet into trend
(2013-ish) Lang visits various homeless facilities, preaching “maker biz”
(2013-14) Cringely becomes aware of “maker biz” trend, or Lang, or Roth
(Jun 2014) 44th US Pres name-drops Marc Roth and “maker small biz”
(2015-ish) Cringely sez “if homeless makers, why not child entrepreneurs”
(2015-ish) Cringely ‘partners with’ (prob. funds?) Roth for ‘maker supplies’
(Sep 2015) A ‘crowdsourced maker space Kickstarter’ [Mineserver] is born
(Mar 2016) Roth is still in business, drives out to service the laser cutter
(2016-17) Radical US Presidential turnover; Maker small-biz trend fades
(2016-17) Mineserver sputters, vanishes; Roth’s career again collapses
(2017-ish) TechShop homeless-liaison program closes; makers are S.O.L.
(Oct 2017) “Oh, btw, my house burnt down, or maybe just the back room”
(Jul 2018) “We sold that house in a real hurry, during an insurance dispute”
(Jan 2020) “Gee, I’d like to finish this project, but those damn pitchforks…”
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So what does one call this? It’s not wholly fraudulent — there WAS a short-lived ‘maker small biz’ surge, with accompanying attention + funding, and plenty of people (not least David Lang) hurried to jump on it. But it’s not wholly pure or pristine either — there are elements of “bait hook while the suckers are still biting, then get the hell out of Dodge before the jig’s up,” as evinced by the years of follow-on excuses and demurrals.
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The damning stroke — per my read — is that you could substitute the words “foil hard drives” or “privatized satellites” into my first 8-9 lines, and it would be the same #$%! thing. And that’s not all. Reading back through Cringe’s archives, you can see Eero and mesh wireless and buffer bloat pop up since summer 2018. It would not surprise me if some “wireless device” or “wireless optimizer” or “streaming QoS” biz concept had been bouncing around in the Cringely household for some months, and, poof, suddenly a bunch of targeted articles appear trying to drum up buzz for the next {maker} {satellite} {link-saturation} speculative opportunity.
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I don’t know if I can go full “con artist.” But there is something a bit flim-flam about the skipping from lily-pad to lily-pad and (retroactively) grooming past reputation so that future investors don’t sniff the historical trend.
Interesting. Cringely does have a pattern of getting all excited about a new technology (or a refinement on an existing one, but used in a different way) and he does like to say that he is funding things, but the real-world footprint of his investments always seems… small.
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Like the tinfoil hard drive things.. the only marketing he ever did for that company was to write a couple of columns about it, and deliver that one execrable “lecture” to a captive audience of students at the local college. If he had put in real money into that company, wouldn’t he have been working a lot harder to promote and protect his investment?
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Cringely claims to have made tons of money from his “angel” investments, but if that were the case, why would he complain about running out of money to ship existing Mineservers? Why would the sum total of marketing effort put into “Eldorado Space”, the company that is supposed to “fund his retirement”, be no more than a single blog post, a one-time $69 fee to register the company name in Delaware, and one Photoshopped picture of an F-104? These are not the actions of someone who is flush with money.
I hadn’t seen the Marc Roth story before. He really reminds me of Michael David Crawford, a guy who used to hang out on kuro5hin. He was quite intelligent but had delusions of grandeur and disconnections from reality that got worse as the years went on. He ended up homeless for a time as well and died young, after years of not taking very good care of himself.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/51d72b41e4b0f798b53a3cae/t/5d2cf3b6d9f2c40001eff701/1563227062946/Michael+David+Crawford+obit.pdf
Relying on a guy like this would be a very stressful endeavour.
https://makezine.com/2020/08/19/plan-c-a-homeless-maker-in-san-francisco/
QuestionablePhD: That is something else. It reminds me of what someone on the k*ckstarter said (or it may have been here): “Bob, for years I’ve been reading about your failed ventures. It’s a very different feeling to be personally involved in one, though.”
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(Six tries on this reply so far!)
The thought just occurred to me that I don’t need GPS but the world does.
Interesting.
I see you are g@yer than ever Bob. The world would be better off without Google / Apple. That much is obvious with crystal clear clarity.
The smart phone market share is 85% Android and 15% iOS:
https://www.idc.com/promo/smartphone-market-share/os
Hell has frozen over!
Oops! I meant Texas.
Or did I?
Bwahahahaha!
Some Republicans came to Cruz’s defense, arguing that there is little that U.S. senators can do during a natural disaster.
There’s little that U.S. senators can do, PERIOD!
What a cushy job! Paid to bloviate. Where can I sign up?
Hey, Reimer!
Upstream you commented that some people never change.
Reminds me of a song lyric. Waylon Jennings sang it.
“Funny how bad folks never change but the good ones always do.”
Proceed with caution.
Drive safely. Buckle up. Wear a mask.
This one?
—-quote—–
Ivory Tower
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I’ve been a believer in many things
I’ve passed a sign post or two
I never could see why the bad folks don’t change
Or why the good ones want to.
—-quote—–
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Good lyrics.
@Gnarfle
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There are some who would say Texas had it coming and they would have a point. While I was guilty of a smidgen of schadenfreude at Texas turning into an old school scene of third world natural disaster and previously cocky Americans reduced to sheltering in one room under tents of blankets and drinking out of drains the boring old policy wonk in me is more more sober.
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Politicians can take their responsibilities more seriously and be more careful how they wield their influence. A lot less ego would help too.
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Bored so I wrote a blog. If that doesn’t get them panting I don’t know what will.
Hey, Reimer!
Thanks for the link to Makezine.
Way down the bottom there’s a link to this :
https://classic.esquire.com/article/share/58ff278a-21da-4ee4-a446-b7f451b90275?source=nl&utm_source=nl_esq&utm_medium=email&date=021021&utm_campaign=nl22906083&utm_term=ESQ_Esquire_Membership_CLASSIC_PAID
There is PBS documentary under American Experience series named Robert Noyce Goes to Silicon Valley too plus under American Experience series PBS also has documentary Silicon Valley from 2013.
Hey, Pirate!
AAAAR, I might have seen these, matey! Its funny. I can read it on my Android tablet but on my Win10 PC . . . Esquire really wants me to subscribe. I already subscribe and have since 1984. Can’t be bothered to figger out if I have a login or not, at the moment.
Safe journeys!
Hey, Trashie!
I do have compassion for those who trust their leaders to make good and just decisions. In the aftermath of 11 SEP 2001, I remember listening to NPR for weeks afterward. I fell asleep to the sound of New Yorkers reflecting on what happened. I remember an older couple complaining about not being able to attend a Broadway show of Mel Brooks’ The Producers. More than 3,000 dead and all they can talk about is not getting to see their show. I remember thinking at the time how awful for those young men being promised so much and giving their lives just to knock down a couple of buildings which would have fallen down eventually. Did they get their reward? Who knows?
So much for living humbly for a cause . . .
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2018/11/24/mature/
What about 5G?
I don’t know, Gnarfle, what about 5G?
Isn’t going to kill us all?
Of course not. The Zorb with protect you.
I saw this “ad” on a car telling me to Zorbit! 5G yada yada!
I’d post the link but both of the browsers warn me that the site contains MALICIOUS content.
If the U.S. was serious about teaching SCIENCE, TECHNOLOGY, ENGINEERING, ARTS, MATHEMATICS they would not start kids off with stories about talking animals. Especially talking animals that wear human clothing.
Some years back there was a live action version of UnderDog. I noticed the real dog came fully equipped. The flying dog (CGI) had been emasculated. To quote Yakov Smirnoff – What a country!
Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) favourite sugar daddy claim they are working on 6G. Doubtless this is all part of the tug of war of who controls and owns the standards and who pays what to whom.
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Given Paul Allen scalped Stephens for the price of a burger after Stephens stalked him the queue you would think Stephens would take a hint.
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That reminds me. We never did settle the question of whether Paul Allen died with or without a stiffy.
https://www.capacitymedia.com/articles/3826249/south-korea-to-launch-6g-trial-in-2026
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-china-54852131
It seem Chinese are already doing 6G tests
I seems
It seems ….
Marke Stephens (aka Cringely) is working on 7G. Quantum tinfoil aeroplanes!
I’d buy that for a dollar!
I’ve heard that STTI (Spinal Tap Tech, Inc.) is working on 11G.
I wonder if its a Limited Liability Corporation . . .
Mainlining Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) fermented dandruff. Going… to… 100G.
ON TOPIC
https://spacenews.com/l3harris-gets-136-million-contract-for-gps-digital-payloads/
There’s a huge amount of “space innovation” right now — probably sparked by the Chinese ASAT launch, and 45th US President Space Force announcement, and increasingly-feasible privatization, and blah blah blah.
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A lot of it is just ridiculous — rookie entrepreneurs throwing anything at the wall in hopes that it will stick (“We can encrypt satellite telemetry + control like never before”) (“Our sensors can measure human sweat + salinity like never before”) (“We can put long-life batteries in space”) — I’m not making any sort of veiled Cringely-bash (though it will amuse me if he dips further into this), but the interest and momentum are clearly out there.
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I fully expect 70% or 80% of said hoopla to dry up once the 11-to-13-year bull market reaches its inevitable end.
It looks like we’re in to the dramatic pause phase of Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) Mineserver statement before it arrives like an chorus of angels and he rolls over all sweaty and red faced panting from exertion. His writers pen laid straight and empty like a deceased garden worm dessicated in the sun. The finale of his entreprenurial and writing career, thirty years, THIRTY as a “journalist” no less. A moment to bask in the glow of his achievements. His TRIUMPHS. Surely, sure the award will come now. The acclaim? The IPO. Yes, yes the plan is coming together. A mess at first, disorganized, no overall plan or scheme apparent. Only in the last moment as the pieces come together does the art, the GENIUS, manifest.
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But… but… no. It’s not just genius or great but too good. Too good for MORTAL EYES. Quick, quick. It must be hidden. Buried. Forgotten. THE WORLD IS NOT READY. One more “prediction” perhaps before the world catches the reflection of a glimpse of this gateway to the 10D chess multiverse quantum VOYNICH dark matter gateway to higher conciousness?
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REDRUM. REDRUM. REDRUM…
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I’m taking the piss a bit aren’t I?
A little bit.
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In his introduction to his 2021 predictions, Cringely said:
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—–quote—-
The next five or six columns, beginning with one this evening, will each cover a prediction for 2021. The last of these prediction columns will be an update on my Mineserver project that, but that will be 7-10 days from now. You’ll just have to wait for it, because that story is still in some flux.
—-quote—-
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He’s written five prediction columns already, so the sixth, by his own words, has to be the Mineserver update. But it’s “in some flux”, which in Cringely-speak probably means that he’s waiting for some angel investor (wait, isn’t Cringely supposed to be an angel investor?) to come through with a vaguely-promised deal.
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Since this “deal” will almost certainly never happen, we’ll have to wait six months or so for the actual update, based on previous performance. This update will acknowledge that the deal fell through (maybe blame the pitchfork crowd again?) but then announce that an even BIGGER deal is in the works. Mineserver 3.0! A reboot to the reboot!
Oh don’t put ideas in Marks Stephens (aka Cringely) head. I imagine the scene now… Playing the theme from Superman in his mind Stephens moves in pretend slow motion across the room stripping invisible clothes…
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I’ve had a couple of bullshitting and flakey clients but they are fairly rare in reality. Mark Stephens takes the biscuit for dodgy client. Bullshiting, passive-anger Jekyll and Hyde personality being a bit on the flash side in their own mind but strangely when it comes to getting the cash out on the resistant side. I’m getting the feeling Stephens Mineserver narrative is falling irrevocably into this pinky swear it’s being finished alternating with narcissictic toddler like indignation and more deadcat bouncing opinion and “prediction columns”. I’m expecting this to end with a scene where Mark Stephens (aka Cringely) is standing their with a haunted wild eyes look, unkempt hair, collar askew, stressed and deranged look wailing he’s been sucked dry plus a few random outbursts.
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I’d hate to be his kids at school. “See that man over there? That burned out has-been? That’s your dad that is.” As for his marriage and how his wife puts up with his cult like domestic arrangements I don’t know.
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I’m not sure Mark Stephens claims about being a start-up consultant and “angel investor” (which one is it) stack up. He claims to make above stock market gains. What are the money flows between consulancy and investing and living off his wife’s capital and earnings versus net worth? I suspect his maths may be off and without seeing a lifetime breakdown there’s the whiff of orange buffon about his finances. Mark Stephens never produced evidence of his “done deal” insurance claim so I’m not expecting anything forthcoming on this. Speaking of which Mark Stephens should have a registered company somewhere to contain his business activities. Using the appropriated from Infoworld branding of “Cringely” and a different name in real life may have thrown a lot of people off his activities. It would be interesting to see what the public records say about his claims.
@Trashay!
“with a haunted wild eyes look, unkempt hair, collar askew, stressed and deranged look wailing he’s been sucked dry plus a few random outbursts.”
Again, this sounds like a pretty good description of me.
Or me. Or all of us. Perhaps mankind, in general.
ON TOPIC
https://spacenews.com/lockheed-martin-to-upgrade-gps-satellites-for-in-orbit-servicing/
Or gorillas even!
Read Mather’s “CyberSpace (World War C Book 2)” to explore this topic in much greater depth (and learn that the GPS provides timing which is more important than location).
It’s sci-fi, so how do you know what parts of it are fact?
I can do a pretty good job judging the factual parts of that book, based on having done over 40 years of classified DoD work. (The pandemic convinced me it was time to retire and play with my toys at home). Anyway, the GPS-related material in the book is easy to find on the Web.
Mr. Musk and Starlink have the GPS issue in hand…
How?
Well, that could be a big possibility as long as it will be used in a good way and not exploited.
Thanks for this useful article.
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