We all know people who seem to not like anything. There are very successful people who sometimes seem to have reached that success entirely through saying “no.” I’m not that kind of person. I’m an optimist. I’m even a bit of a risk-taker. But I can’t say that we’re going to see anything beyond more beta tests of self-driving cars in 2019. So my Prediction #4 is that self-driving cars won’t hit the retail market in any fashion this year. We simply aren’t ready and probably won’t be for years to come.
The problem with self-driving cars isn’t the technology. Heck, we’ve had the technology pretty much whipped for the past decade. Throw-in all the more recent data collected by Google and — especially — all those Teslas on Autopilot and nearly all the kinks have been worked out of having cars drive themselves. Still, it won’t be allowed to happen because people are going to die, mainly because of idiot drivers.
The problem isn’t with the self-driving cars, it’s with the cars that aren’t self-driving, cars that are driven by idiots like me.
My first exposure to self-driving cars was in 1995 and I’ve written about that here. The idea back then wasn’t dropping your kids off from school in your neighborhood, but cramming more cars onto the L.A. freeways. From on-ramp to off-ramp they’d be centrally-controlled, precisely one meter apart and going like bats-out-of-Hell, yet still getting superior gas mileage because of the drafting.
That system could have worked had cars on the freeway been limited to those under such direct control. Let them drive everywhere at 80 miles-per-hour even in rush hour and there would have been enough economic pressure to make it work.
But the idea today is to eliminate drivers from door-to-door, which is way harder. But we could do that, too, if it wasn’t for interacting with millions of drivers who are still controlling their vehicles the old fashion way, which is often in a barely competent fashion. So we give up the super-high-speed lane concept and get a new form of road rage, instead.
Cars always used to last for about 10 years, but over the last couple decades that has been extended through two expedients: 1) high strength galvanized steel bodies that don’t rust the way your Dad’s Oldsmobile used to, and; 2) car prices that are substantially higher even adjusted for inflation. We keep our cars longer because they don’t rust and we can’t afford to replace them so often.
The result is that while we could expect a complete turnover in car technology every decade, now it takes closer to two decades. I drive a 2006 GMC Yukon XL Denali with 164,000 miles on it. My next car, if I ever get one, will be a 2006 Mercedes-Benz E320 CDI (I’m on the lookout if you know of a good one). So I’m no help at all toward reaching the self-driving singularity.
It will eventually happen. Once half the fleet has been replaced with cars that could be self-drivers if we allowed them to be, then there will be a huge financial incentive to get the other half off the street. This will be especially the case if climate change is still accelerating.
I’m guessing that most cars from 2020-on could be self-driving with only a software upgrade, which is why Elon Musk is predicting Tesla will have full autonomy by the end of 2019. But notice that Elon isn’t predicting Tesla will be allowed to have its cars drive themselves everywhere.
We’ll first see it on the highways, where interaction between car species should be easier to handle. But a few instances of bad luck could easily scotch that, in which case it will be 2030 when we suddenly seem to have self-driving cars overnight, based purely on fleet capability.
So why is the world talking so much about self-driving cars and full autonomy? Some of it is Tesla hype, some of it is marketing as the car companies try to get us to buy cars that will eventually be self-driving, but probably not until their second owners. And the other reason why we’re talking so much about self-driving cars is because Uber is planning to go public later this year.
Uber says it spent $750 million last year on self-driving research. I have no idea if that is actually true. Maybe the money was spent on self-driving, maybe it was spent on something else. Maybe they bought a lot of really great lunches for self-driving car engineers. They spent a lot, I know, because Uber is about to take another $1 billion from SoftBank and others just to continue to work on their self-driving technology that the company is hinting is worth $5-10 billion all by itself.
What’s it worth if Uber can’t actually use the tech until 2030?
I don’t think Uber management actually cares. That’s years from now and they have an IPO to worry about — an IPO that will go smoother if the driving public thinks autonomous cars are something that we’ll be seeing soon. Uber has a labor problem. If it can spin a story that surly and expensive human drivers are soon to be replaced with electrons, that will be very reassuring to Wall Street. But as I explained, it also isn’t true.
The world isn’t yet ready — something Uber and Tesla and all the others will suddenly admit in about a year (post-IPO).
This is not to say that there has been no progress on self-driving vehicles of many types. I had a discussion on this recently with reader Chris X Edwards (we Xs stick together) who works for Buffalo Automation, a company in Buffalo, NY working on self-driving ships. Now this makes a lot of sense to me given less maritime traffic and wide sea lanes. I especially like the idea of self-docking boats.
“I personally believe strongly in solving all of the easier problems than the idiot driver problem,” says Chris. “There is tremendous potential in areas like tractors (I can assure you that Case New Holland is hiring people like me) and mine hauling (I love Komatsu, the true autonomous vehicle pioneers). Note how these types of businesses avoid the idiot driver problem completely.
“Being in Buffalo, we’re also interested in improving the (sometimes literal) blind spot the rest of the autonomous industry has with snow and winter (there are exceptions ). Having now personally seen a lot of idiot drivers crash their cars in the snow, I can assure you that 99.9 percent of snow related accidents are the result of something autonomous vehicles are immune to — driving too fast. A lot of potential there if we can just get over that idiot driver hurdle.”
Something I forgot to mention in my discussion with Chris was a story I wrote 25 or so years ago for Forbes about Caterpillar’s self-driving harvester. This was about the same time I was learning about California’s research in computer-controlled freeways. Caterpillar, a big agricultural equipment manufacturer, was worried about the loss of farm workers and looking for a way to make equipment that could drive itself. So they hired an engineer working on neural nets and cobbled together a system built on a Macintosh II that actually worked. It was self-training and could figure out the field — any field of any size or shape — and determine how to most efficiently harvest the crop, typically corn or wheat.
The only reason Caterpillar didn’t bring self-driving to market in the mid-1990s was the problem of legal liability, which is something the autonomous car folks are going to be wrestling with for years to come. Their lawyers wouldn’t let Caterpillar sell the harvester. So they had to figure something else to do with that self-learning, yield-optimizing technology. Caterpillar brilliantly had their neural net guy convert that Mac II system from running a harvester to instead optimizing the return on Caterpillar’s pension fund, which autonomously drove by itself to record returns over the next few years.
Cue the Avery Brooks commercial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzm6pvHPSGo
Do you think self driving cars will mostly do away with the market for individually owned cars? What’s the point in buying a car to sit idle most of the time, and to pay insurance and parking? Plus rideshare solves the problem of who is liable.
The fully self driving passenger vehicle as a replacement for today’s automobile will be at the very end of the disruptive innovation chain. Like all disruptive technologies, autonomous vehicles will begin by offering services not well suited to the existing automobile: sidewalk delivery robots, college campus shuttles, neighborhood door-to-door transit for non-drivers (children, elderly, mobility-challenged), autonomous mining trucks (by Caterpillar https://www.cat.com/en_US/by-industry/mining/surface-mining/surface-technology/command/command-for-hauling.html). These bottom-up applications will lead the way in the market.
See also https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/02/googles-waymo-risks-repeating-silicon-valleys-most-famous-blunder/
“Uber says it spent $750 million last year on self-driving research. I have no idea if that is actually true. Maybe the money was spent on self-driving, maybe it was spent on something else. Maybe they bought a lot of really great lunches for self-driving car engineers. They spent a lot…”
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^^ Coming from you, Mr. Stephens, this is OUT-OF-THIS-WORLD hilarious.
No one mentioned self-driving TRUCKS. Eliminating the 18 wheeler driver would make the highways safer and transportation costs cheaper. But that would hurt the number 1 employer of non-college-educated men (which won’t ever happen).
the tech problems aren’t anywhere near solved.
John Krafcik, head of the self-driving car unit of Google parent company Alphabet, said that though driverless cars are “truly here,” they’re not yet ubiquitous. And he doesn’t think the industry will ever achieve the highest driving rating of being able to drive at any time of year in any weather and any condition.
Instead, “autonomy always will have some constraints,” he said.
“It’s really, really hard,” Krafcik said. “You don’t know what you don’t know until you’re actually in there and trying to do things.”
This from a Jalopnik article titled, “Autonomous Cars will be ready for snow just in time for global warming to eliminate winter”.
Waymo’s pilot program, in perfect weather with good roads exhaustively mapped, isn’t going very well.
https://www.theinformation.com/articles/waymos-big-ambitions-slowed-by-tech-trouble
This is Moravec’s paradox, what is easy for humans is hard for machines.
Moravec writes:
“Encoded in the large, highly evolved sensory and motor portions of the human brain is a billion years of experience about the nature of the world and how to survive in it. The deliberate process we call reasoning is, I believe, the thinnest veneer of human thought, effective only because it is supported by this much older and much more powerful, though usually unconscious, sensorimotor knowledge. We are all prodigious olympians in perceptual and motor areas, so good that we make the difficult look easy. Abstract thought, though, is a new trick, perhaps less than 100 thousand years old. We have not yet mastered it. It is not all that intrinsically difficult; it just seems so when we do it.”
fully autonomous self-driving cars will require a general AI. That’s a hard problem, not nearly solved yet.
In 1995 two Carnegie Mellon robotics professors wrote software and installed a desktop in a Pontiac minivan, which then drove itself across the US achieving 98.2% autonomous function.
I’m not sure anyone has done better since.
https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tjochem/nhaa/nhaa_home_page.html
@Questionable_PhD Right? I took pause and couldn’t believe I was reading this. “…and the glass house came crumbling down around him…”
I firmly believe self-driving cars will never take off. If we don’t have self-driving commercial planes like a 787 or an A350 with the reality of structured airspace, how are we going to take on the madness of driving on roadways? An assisting driver in a test of a self-driving car was charged with manslaughter when the car killed a pedestrian. The autonomous car could not be held liable which means even if there was a software flaw, the car company cannot be held liable. This means you can’t be drunk, get into the car and get home safely. You can’t take a nap while you drive across Kansas or read the news while commuting. Imagine how cool it would be if you could have your car activate, leave your driveway and pick you up at the airport. If something happens to the car and you’re not in it, you the owner are liable.
Self-driving cars cannot exceed the speed limit. This means that on roads where people regularly exceed the speed limit, the cars become a liability for not keeping up with the speed of traffic. Nobody wants to buy a car where they get passed by other drivers. Call it FOMO, call it envy, most people do not want to be in last place and this I feel will be a factor in the back of people’s minds when making the purchase.
Self-driving trucks will never take off because they can’t do hazmat. If you look into the restrictions for hazmat, a driver can only leave the truck unattended when parked in a special DOT-approved lot. There isn’t a single lot like this in the United States. Furthermore, things break on trucks and I am unaware of any self-driving truck that can do predictions regarding flat tires, drive train failure or a host of other issues drivers face today and can be ticketed if they happen.
Self-driving vehicles can be bullied. A pedestrian stepping into traffic to intentionally stop all traffic can shut down any roadway. If a vehicle can be bullied into being stopped, it can be robbed. A truckload of pistachios is worth $100,000 and completely untraceable. Hazmat like gasoline can be stopped, drained and resold and it’s untraceable.
@unixguy
After reading your comment I tried to remember if I ever had a problem with 18 wheeler truck drivers on the road and I really can’t remember that has ever happened. They are professionals with lot of driving experience and they are very safe on the road something like air traffic – extremely reliable but when on rare occasions something happens than the public gets wrong perception.
I have every day problem with morons that THINK they are professionals .Professional truck drivers are not the problem on the road – morons and teenagers are.
@Wally Glenn A claim that something will “never” take off is so short sighted that I couldn’t take you seriously after the first sentence. I’m happy you didn’t prove me wrong. You made so many claims that could be solved over time with policy or other technology changes. You may not realize how long “never” is.
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* Planes and cars are going to mess up, that doesn’t mean we should throw in the towel and give up.
* If policy doesn’t currently make sense for who is liable, you adjust it accordingly, you don’t give up because it’s too complicated.
* If people are driving too slow because 80% of the driving force is automated but 20% is not, policy will change to remove the 20% from the roads for “safety reasons”. Driving is a privilege, not a right. Once the fleet is at 100%, the speed limit will increase dramatically and the ones with FOMO will be the purists who want to drive manually and are left in the dust.
* Technology will improve to get sensors and send vehicles to mechanics if they sense danger/imminent repairs. If they had something unexpected happen, they will send a signal out to an automated tow truck or clean up crew. In cases of an accident, redirected traffic will still go faster than it does now, as it will prevent rubber necking.
* If cars are bullied, cameras will catch them and police drones will be on the scene fast enough to stop the majority of the damage or stop the perps in their tracks.
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It’s cute that you think this will “never” happen, but to each of your hurdles I can think of many solutions that could be rolled out in the coming century. Perhaps “never” lives and dies with you, to which I have to explain that the world doesn’t revolve around you. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
What – where are all the idiot comments about Mineserver – that’s the entertainment I come here for.
@Tomek:
Here ya go…
I predict Mineservers will be delivered autonomously.
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Because by the time they’re delivered that will be the well-established norm.
@Tomek I’m sure they are just waiting for more name calling from the non-Mineserver backers. FYI, you aren’t any better than they are if you want to resort to calling people an idiot just because you disagree with them and how they go about seeking answers.
I don’t want a self-driving car. Period.
@Montgomery It’s not all about you. We’re trying to make the world more efficient. Get in line or get off the road. Exclamation point!
This is a fun game. Question mark?
There is a lesson to be learned from the latest Boeing 737 Max stick pusher crashes. Boeing used an automatic piloting safety system, first to allow flawed design (attaching larger engines to a plane that was design for smaller ones instead of redesigning and re-certifying it), and then to get a marketing advantage by hiding essential safety information from the FAA, the airlines and the pilots (making the information available, to pilots would have obliged the FAA to mandate training which could increase the cost of ownership to the airlines for each plane by hundred of thousands if not millions per plane. Some of that money of course ended up as bonuses paid to Boeing executives and as shareholders profits.
Boeing executives misconduct is not at all unique, see Volkswagen’s “diesel gate” which turned up to be a whole car industry’s “diesel gate” and is now ending with the EU removing diesel cars entirely from European roads (I am not sure about tracks). We see defective products that cost lives (Ralph Nader should be looking at Boeing) and companies that make most of their profits from introduction of defective product in monopolistic markets (any one can guess who?).
Some of what hold technology back have to do with laws and legal standard. I for example hold the opinion that the “corporate Vail” legal doctrine should not apply to executives and employees that put life and health at risk (as is the case in the pharmaceutical industry regarding addictive drags), but we are not going to see Uber executives being indited with the driver that was assigned to supervised the self driving car that killed a person, essentially to allow executive to shift testing into public space and use human as lab rats in order to line up their pockets in an IPO.
Changing the legal approach will direct more resources to technology and technologists that can solve problems rather than business manipulators who redirect resources to market manipulation. Manipulation that conflicts with US laws related to the free and fair market. A legal shift can accelerate innovation by holding protection from defective technologies and allow free-er competition. Boeing would have spend the resources on redesign and instead of manipulating the market using improvised technology and would have ended up with a better plane and higher profits (not mentioning life and losses saved).
Anyone can see a connection to the computer industry?
This topic reads like mutual boosterism. I have no interest in Cingelys upsellign of himself or third parties trying to leverage. Once bitten twice shy… I also don’t personally care about a “USA! USA! USA!” only attitude. I’m not American nor especially nationalistic… Pretty much all the commentary on the subject has been done before and done better.
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I’m excited for robotic cars and always have been. The idea of a lounge on wheels experience plus all the emerging possibilities for social policy is really amazing. I note Cringely is completely tone deaf with all of this. I also don’t expect America to lead the world in this area and certainly consider it a deriliction of duty just to accept American corporations and other American vested interests to push themselves to the front and allowed to do so on the nod. There are also opportunities with Universal Basic Income and similar schemes plus a whole lot of other subtle interctions economically which Cringely is completely absent with. This includes such topics as wealth sharing enabling societies to be defined more by how they live their lives than crude calculations such as work and hourly rate. These are all areas that American very definately doesn’t have a monopoly with nor should it.
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For a lot of reasons the EU can set the lead. Because of urban planning and georgraphy an extremely large percentage of single owner vehicles can very easily be replaced by fleets of shared ownership either via co-operative or corporate arrangements. This straddles the line between taxi and bus and vehicle sharing. Almost all car ownership could disappear overnight and I anticipate the morning after people will wonder why they never did it before as it will be very natural. Pretty much every ICE car in private ownership could be traded in and recycled overnight. This solves the hazard problem.
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How many cars clog the roads just to ferry children to school? Two car families not only for carting Little Emporers about but for work and shopping? Having a care just to avoid being raped or ten minutes of bloody freedom? Men don’t think about this… Women are 50% of the market don’tcha know.
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IPO is another American thing along with “pivot and scale” (which I’m tired of hearing of along with UX which is another awful dogs breakfast createsd by careerists who don’t udnerstand their own topic). It’s not the be all and end all in the rest of the world. Many businesses especially in the EU are better of remaining private and in some cases remain under the control of the original founding family holding simply because it avoids many of the pitfalls of American style IPOs and Wall Street behaviour.
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Other than this bullshit can’t cover the fact Mineservers are still MIA…
Seriously not impressed by this prediction. I have literally read multiple articles in the past month, from mainstream media, saying the exact same thing.
It’s already on the way, here in Australia a number of the large miners such as BHP and Rio Tinto use automous mining trucks and trains with the occasional mishap). A the national level road based truck trials are also currently being planned along a couple major road corridors with a current review of issues & road rules to allow automated heavy haulage. This won’t replace the mom & pop operators you describe but target standardised long haul routes by the big players
https://www.riotinto.com/media/media-releases-237_26646.aspx
https://www.google.com/amp/s/thewest.com.au/business/mining/bhp-autonomous-trucks-collide-at-jimblebar-iron-ore-mine-in-pilbara-ng-b881139676z.amp
Three separate points:
> Cars always used to last for about 10 years
I’d like to add reason 3) — the federal requirement for 8 years or 80,000 miles warranty on some parts of the emission system means that we get stainless exhaust systems (etc) that last _much_ longer than previous.
Thinking of buying some shares of Uber or Lyft when they go public? Just remember that they are really just taxi companies with an app…and really big VC backing to keep their ride prices low (for now). The money behind them is pretty smart about making more money, personally I think the small investor hasn’t got much of a chance with either of these IPOs near the top of the market, Uber in particular.
https://www.thestreet.com/technology/interested-in-uber-or-lyft-ipos-here-s-what-investors-need-to-know-14867831
As far as self driving cars go, Bob missed the whole bit about respecting pedestrians/cyclists — who are (I believe) the only people that society grants a “natural” right to use the road. Motor vehicles and operators all require a license and their use is a privilege that can be taken away. The current round of self driving cars in the Phoenix area haven’t shown enough pedestrian respect, not only did Uber kill the woman pushing a bike, in some places the neighbors are throwing rocks at these test cars for threatening their kids playing in a quiet cul-de-sac.
Robocars are the Linux of transport systems.
Lex Fridman has a good talk on Youtube “MIT Self-Driving Cars: State of the Art (2019)” covering the main issues very thoroughly. He notes the issues “beyond prediction” which as I sad about the human experience and democratising transportation. I’m glad he and other key policy influencers have noticed.
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Autogefühl have a Youtube “Levels of Autonomous Driving – Level 0 1 2 3 4 5 – what is what? Example Mercedes S-Class Prototype”. Mercedes estimates are very conservative.
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Pedestrians and cyclists are banned from interstate highways because of the inherent danger of having them present.
Funny to see Chris Edwards’ comments regarding snow… I am a big self-driving skeptic
for many, many reasons, one of which is snow. Anyone who has spent a couple of
winters driving in snow country knows well that road conditions are far less than optimal
for days if not weeks after big storms. Even after plowing, roads can be covered with
snow, obscuring any markings. Snow drifts over the road, piles of snow get knocked
over, snow falls from overhead branches, etc. Plowed or shoveled snow is left in piles
on the side of the roadway until it gets carted away or melts. How well do sensors like
LIDAR detect snow banks? What about driving in a heavy snow fall, with thick, fat snow
flakes? Tens of millions of people have to drive in these conditions every winter. People
have to travel to work, school, to shop, to get medical care… they can’t put their lives
on hold until the weather clears up.
How will law enforcement be able to “pull over” or otherwise re-direct self-driving cars?
They have valid reasons have this capability, and even if you don’t agree with that,
they will insist on having it and politicians will probably agree with their reasons. How
will they be able to send such a signal yet prevent vandals, hackers, or criminals from
doing the same?
I have a long list of potential problem areas for self-driving cars that I’ve never seen
addressed. Some are technical, some are economic, and some are systemic — based
on the fact that our entire current infrastructure is predicated on human drivers. It
can’t all be changed at once, which means there will be ongoing co-existence problems.
The people pushing this are gadget freaks who hate driving, and big corporations who
see only dollar signs. There are lots of things that could be done right now to make
driving safer without spending billions of dollars, but I don’t see any self-driving proponents
advocating for those changes.
Roger, where are you??
My prediction for 2019: There will be no flying cars either.
In 2020 I will be able to boast about how accurate my prediction was.
They only need to solve enough problems to make it work where it needs to work and when it needs to work. It doesn’t have to be perfect… The various components of the solution can be improved by iteration.
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The UK grinds to a halt with 2mm of snow because infrastructure and drivers never experience snow bad enough for long enough to warrant stronger measures. The same is true for trains which run on rails. I expect 3D road mapping and the Galileo system with accuracy to 1cm will mitigate many visibility issues caused by snowdrifts. The other thing is men who fancy themselves as burly hero types may have ego issues. Myself? I couldn’t care less because robocars allow for doing make up on the way to work or a meeting which compresses time plus I’m lazy and happy watching the world go by while the robocar car makes the effort. As for the rest of the laundry list of problems almost all of these are problems present with human drivers to varying degrees. If push comes to shove and burly hero types insist on going out in six foot snow drifts while I’m at home on the sofa reading a book and drinking a Cup-a-soup and scoffing choclates in the warm this is “Not My Problem” territory.
I’m glad to here it’s going to take awhile. I can see the scenario from the movie “The Italian Job” where the person hacked into the traffic lights and caused all kinds of havoc. Someone would hack into whatever system is created for car controls or road controls and crashes and death would prevail.
I see areas where autonomous cars will show up first – “Autonomous Islands” which can be isolated from general traffic. Think college campuses, resorts, possibly even very high density areas such as Manhattan, inner Paris or DC. Special lanes will allow a limited amount of permitted human driven vehicles as necessary.
Imagine non-polluting, shared cars, delivery trucks, and bus/light rail having minimal interaction with human drivers. Emergency vehicles would automatically and seamlessly get through.
Agree that the world isn’t ready for the whole planet to go autonomous, but it could work in many, semi-isolated areas.
@Train Leaving Station
I guess you are right, it’s not about me, it’s about know it all busybodies telling others how to live their lives…
Regardless, I enjoy driving. I am good at it. And I prefer to retain control over my vehicle. I don’t want to end up like a passenger on a Boeing 737 MAX, which was full of self-piloting safety technology that the pilots could not defeat as the plane mindlessly flew itself into the ground.
I was at a family reunion about 20 years ago. It was held at a family farm in North Dakota. The farmer gave a tour of some of his equipment and talked about running a farm were he grew crops like grain corn, soy beans and sugar beats. The one comment he made that I remember is the one ‘new’ technology he thought was most useful was GPS. It allowed his tractor to drive straight lines. This enabled him to not have to overlap the last pass saving him a lot of time and money. His farm had hundreds of acres.
@Montgomery “Regardless, I enjoy driving. I am good at it. And I prefer to retain control over my vehicle. ”
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You sound like a gun control activist. *I’m* good with my guns and *I* like having them. It’s my right to keep them [despite all of the mass shootings and deaths]. *You* may like driving, but car accidents injure and kill thousands per year. Is *your* enjoyment worth more than those lives?
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Yes, automated planes and cars will crash and we will adjust the software and work out the kinks, bringing the number closer to zero than it will EVER be if we leave humans behind the wheel. It’s a necessary evil to progress. We can’t upgrade the software on humans as easily. In fact, the more we “upgrade” humans (ie. give them better and better technology) the more distracted they seem to be and the more dangerous they become. This initiative is trying to stop that.
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If you enjoy driving, you can do so at “amusement tracks” similar to what some companies do such as the Porsche Experience Center. As automated vehicles increase, I imagine there will be a market for this and others will get in line and create their “experience” which will drop the prices. This will be your alternative in the future, just like they have shooting ranges for those who like guns. You may not be able to carry your firearm (read: your car) with you everywhere you go, but you can still enjoy the thrill of using it under a more controlled environment. If that doesn’t work for you I go back to the previous point – Is *your* enjoyment worth more than all of the lives lost to humanity behind the wheel? If your answer is yes, then we have a bigger issue…
Edit: I meant to research this before posting but forgot. I misspoke when I said thousands of lives are lost due to cars annually, I apologize; Turns out it is MILLIONS!! (Nearly 1.3 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day. An additional 20-50 million are injured or disabled: http://asirt.org/initiatives/informing-road-users/road-safety-facts/road-crash-statistics)
@ Train Leaving Station
Actually a gun control activist is someone who wants to take everyone else’s guns away. I’m sure you meant a gun rights activist.
@Montgomery I did, it’s early. I misspoke. Thanks for correcting. You’re the best!
A few years ago, Robert “Uncle Bob” Martin had a good post on driverless cars (excerpts below for those who don’t want to click the link)
http://blog.cleancoder.com/uncle-bob/2017/07/24/DriveMeToTorontoHal.html
(Martin, speaking ofn IBM’s Watson computer beating Jeapordy champion Ken Jennings)
“But as remarkable as the IBM achievement was, it wasn’t without it’s embarrassments. And the embarrassments were telling. Very telling. The mistakes that Watson made were not the kind of mistakes that a human would make. Indeed, the mistakes were eyebrow raising – and given the implications perhaps even hair raising.
One such event occurred when the contestants were asked to name a US city that had one airport named after a WW2 hero, and another airport named after a WW2 battle. Think about this for a second. Walk through the top three cities in the US. New York? No, JFK, LGA, and Newark don’t fit. LA? No, LAX, John Wayne, Ontario don’t fit. Chicago? Aha! O’Hare and Midway! That’s the one. So what US city did Watson choose?
Toronto.
Now, of course, there was a reason that Watson chose Toronto over Chicago. Watson was, after all, a computer; and computers always have absolutely discrete and unambiguous reasons for what they do. A series of if statements comparing weighted values through a complex tree of associations yielded a final, definite result. So there was certainly a reason. A good reason.
I don’t know what the details of that reason were. I’d like to know because I think the answer would be interesting from a technical point of view. On the other hand I don’t much care what the reasons were; because whatever the reasons, the answer that Watson gave was supremely stupid.
No human of moderate intelligence and education would have made that mistake. No such human could understand another such human making that mistake. Indeed, any human who insisted on that answer, as Watson surely would have, might very well be deemed legally insane.
So here’s the dilemma: Watson outperformed the human Jeopardy contestants by a significant margin. The claim has been made that driverless cars will outperform humans by a significant margin too. Driverless cars will decrease the accident and fatality rates. Driverless cars will make the roads safer. Those are the claims.
But the inevitable tragedy will eventually occur. We can imagine it. Perhaps, one day, a driverless car will run down a two-year-old who strayed into the street.
The car will have had a good reason to kill that child. The car, after all, is a computer; and a computer always has an absolutely discrete and unambiguous reason for what it does. And, believe me, everyone is going to want to know the reason that the little child had to die.
Imagine the courtroom scene. The distraught parents, the angry press, the subdued lawyers representing the company who made the car. The car’s computer is on the stand. It is about to answer the question. There’s a hush as everyone leans in. The prosecutor pointedly asks: “Why did that child have to die?” And the computer, parsing through all the data in it’s memory, running through a chain of if statements comparing all the carefully weighted values, finally, and definitively answers: “The reason was: Toronto.”
@ Train Leaving Station
In your first reaction to my post you wrote, ” We’re trying to make the world more efficient.” Who is we? Are you writing on behalf of tech companies or auto manufacturers who are presumably designing products that consumers want to buy? Because I would say to them, thank you, no, I do not want a self-driving car. I am sure some others do want self-driving cars and they would be free to buy them when the come to market. I will buy a manually controlled car.
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But all of your remarks come across with the implied threatening message that there will be no choice about it. “Get in line or get off the road.” This tells me that you are not part of the we who are actually developing these products, you are an ideologue who wants to impose his will upon the rest of the world because you think you know better than everyone else. You tell me that I can only drive at automotive amusement tracks. How generous of you. You are a tin pot despot, if only in your head.
@wile LOL 😀 Thanks for that!
@Montgomery I used “we” as humanity’s goal [one hopes] of limiting casualties where able. The same reason we develop medicine to help the sick, or bioengineer food to get more bang for our buck and likely many other examples that escape me at the moment. No, not everyone is going to agree, but if it helps more people than hurts (by an exponential amount), it seems very selfish for those who don’t want it to cry foul so that humanity at large cannot thrive.
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So I go back to my original concluding statement – if you have a problem with that and thing you enjoying a manual car is worth more than millions of lives lost per year, then I think that’s part of a bigger conversation and is an unfortunate situation.
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My goal is not to force my will on people, it’s to open people’s eyes that humans killing millions of humans per year is less desirable than software killing a small handful of people in the grand scheme of things (among all of the other benefits such as eventual increased speeds and efficiency, etc.).
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You are welcome to disagree, I think having a dialogue about such things is healthy. I just personally have trouble understanding rationale where an individual’s wants outweigh the lives of others. It sounds like something I hear children say when they haven’t learned how to be generous and think about others. I’m hopeful that isn’t the case with you or humanity as a whole, but perhaps I’m wrong and the individual is always greater than the whole and if that’s the case, we’ve got bigger issues as a society than self-driving cars…
Prediction #4.1 — Mineservers won’t happen this year no matter what Crookely says
Just to piggy back off of the “saving lives” and “human software” idea, I personally used to be more in the “opposed” camp and was thinking of the rogue child who was killed and that we can’t allow that to happen. But one of my friends game me an example a few months back that gave me pause and ultimately I had a shift in thinking.
Take the following example – an automated car and a drunk driver.
The Automated car will ultimately kill someone. We already know this because it happened. Ideally you can update, fix, or otherwise improve the technology that will help and update ALL automated cars.
Next take the drunk driver who kills someone. HOPEFULLY that single individual learns their lesson and sobers up and it never happens again, but it does nothing to help anyone else in his shoes. A drunk driver on the east coast will have zero impact on drunk driver on west coast.
Then take a tired driver, a distracted driver (texting), etc. Where’s the fix for that? Laws act as deterrent, but the tragedies are still going to happen. Software, on the other hand, goes through iterations to fix flaws. Yes, bugs will be found, but they are corrected and distributed to the entire fleet, correcting the problem from that point forward, not just for one individual.
The steady state of human nature is arrogant self-righteousness. Many of the arguments have been made before in different contexts. But who is to say that effeciency is the purpose of human life? Many calls for effeciency lead to fascism. The U.S. prides itself on it’s greatness and it’s independence. I used to attend church. An elderly man was frequently called upon to lead in public prayer. He never failed to mention that we as a nation were slowly losing our freedom. Neil Postman’s Technopoly seeks to answer “What is the purpose of technology?”
Something to cheer you up Roger – Mineservers shipping date is fast approaching – 1st of April – All Fool’s Day
I think it was Robert who wrote sometime ago about an aircraft system using 4 GPS receivers and a transponder of sorts that squawked continuously about position, speed and altitude. Now that sort of technology it seems to me would be quite inexpensive. As a first step why not make it mandatory that a system be installed in all cars old new or motorcycles for that matter that gave each equipped vehicle the situational awareness of all the vehicles around it. Even older cars could be equipped with warning lights, horns, buzzers, etc. Newer autonomous cars would be able to react to unexpected drivers even better.
The longer I live carless — about 16 years now — the more I appreciate public transportation. Adored it as a kid in London and Paris; enjoyed it immensely during the several years I lived in Amsterdam. And by the time I had returned to my native Los Angeles — from which the streetcars of my 1950s-era youth had been untimely ripped — I found they had begun putting a not unreasonable facsimile back into service. Quel surprise! Of course, for longer distances, there’s nothing like a train. My guess is that the most money to be made from driverless cars will be made by lawyers engaged in a vigorous pursuit of monetary justice on behalf of the people killed due to a simple little glitch in software. And imagine what a malevolent hacker might do. O, brave new world that hath such people in’t!
@Gnarfle You slapped two separate posts together and turned it into a different meaning all together:
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“We’re trying to make the world more efficient.” (in reference to autonomous cars being able to drive faster and with less collisions than the current alternative)
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“I used “we” as humanity’s goal [one hopes] of limiting casualties where able.” (a worthy goal I’d like to think, most aren’t a fan of unexpected death)
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Those two statements above, from two separate posts, do not equal: “Efficiency is the purpose of human life”. I don’t believe anyone made that claim because, agreed, if it were the goal, you lead down a potentially very dark path. Saving lives, however, feels like a worthy cause that is easier for people to get behind, even if they lose the privilege to drive their expensive steel coffin on wheels.
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But no, I did not poll humanity so I may be out of line and the majority don’t value life as much as me, which I would find unfortunate if so. If that is the case, my apologies for making that blanket statement. I was feeling hopeful… </3
I think it will be quite a while just because of the logistics of replacing cars. As pointed out in the article, cars are more expensive and longer lasting then ever before. A while back, I did a “back of the envelope” calculation: For buyers of used cars, it will be a long time before they can get their hands on an autonomous car. Doing a quick google for just the US, 2014 new car sales were on the order of 16 million cars. Used car sales were on the order of 41 million, about 2.5 times as many a year. Say new car owners kept their cars three years (arbitrary number) – it would be almost six years before enough used autonomous cars were traded in to support one year of used car sales. According to google, there are 254 million used cars in the US. Assuming six years before used cars start getting replaced, six years of new cars would be 96 million cars replaced, leaving 158 million to be replaced still. From that point figure 57 million get replaced every year, it would be another almost 5 years until all the cars are replaced. That’s 9 years for what I would call a best case. I think it will likely be much longer than that, since a large number of used car buyers are buying cars more than three years old (so they’d have to wait that much longer before getting their hands on an autonomous car).
@Paul R I like all of your math and reasoning. If we stick to the current model, I agree with you.
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One thing worth mentioning is that the yahoos at the top like Musk are proposing a paradigm shift in how car ownership is handled. Assuming people continue to own their cars, you are correct I think. But assuming the future is a fleet of robot cars that you don’t own but instead simply flag to your location to pick you up, then all of the people who are buying used cars no longer have to. The idea is that corporations (or people trying to pay off their newly purchased car) would be the ones who own these vehicles.
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While flagging down a taxi/Uber daily would be WAY more than buying a used car, the hope, I believe, is that the market would be flooded with these cars, driving the cost way down, making it more affordable than buying a car, while also allowing those that own cars to make enough profit to make it worth their while. Whether that math checks out and works for BOTH parties remains to be seen, as I think it sounds like it would still be cheaper to buy a used car, but it is an interesting concept to shift our thinking in a way we haven’t since the creation of the automobile.
trashtalk has the winning comment, again. Though, for reasons including what OP says, I doubt they will reach even Linux-desktop levels of market penetration anytime soon.
This was maybe the least-illuminating Cringely prediction I have seen, and I have been reading them since… I dunno. BYTE Magazine was still the thing.
Not for decades. A boeing just crashed because a faulty sensor caused the software to make bad predictions. Down here on the ground we have mud, water, ice and 99% of car owners who barely maintain their cars. The sensors will constantly be obscured by something.
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All it will take is a glint of sunlight and your car won’t *see* the barrier you plough into. That last one happened to a tesla driver.
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Engineers who really understand technology, realize the limitations. Cringlely, really just a hack journalist and marketing stooge, never did.
@Train Leaving Station
> … We can’t upgrade the software on humans as easily. In fact, the more we “upgrade” humans (ie. give them better and better technology) the more distracted they seem to be and the more dangerous they become. …
There is an easy and cheap way to “upgrade” humans–training aka, practice makes perfect. This is called by various names such as: advanced driver training, skid school, and defensive driver training. You should try a course, they aren’t too expensive and as long as we don’t have an automated system, you will be head and shoulders more capable than some “average driver”. While the USA probably lacks the sense and political will to implement this nationally, it would be much cheaper and would pay back much faster than a fraction of the money currently being spent to automate ground transportation.
At least in my personal experience–
* learning what a car is actually capable of (braking, maneuvering) under controlled conditions (off the road)
* some practice in using that capability so you know how to react when needed
— has the desirable side effect of engaging the driver in the task of driving.
I’m one that agrees that there won’t be a self-driving car this year. But my reasons are a bit different than yours. 1st, self-driving is hard in the real world. You can’t ever be sure that the software will interpret the road correctly 100% of the time and it’s not just idiot drivers. For society to feel comfortable with self-driving cars they have to be close to perfect. Never mind that most people are much less than perfect and the self-driving cars would be safer for society overall. 2nd, it takes about 20 or so years for a technology to be accepted by a big chunk of society. I will start the clock at the 2004 DARPA grand challenge where competitors where ask to make a car that could drive itself. So, it won’t be until after 2024 that we will start to see the people with self-driving cars on a regular basis. Since there are so many safety issues that must be refined. I suspect it won’t be until years after that. And 3rd, the cost of getting them for yourself will be high. Currently, the new car models with driving assist are luxury add-ons to the car you buy. Self-driving cars will be much more expensive. Silicon Valley millionaires will buy them but most people will have to wait.
I expect that people that will feel comfortable with them are the ones that were born in the last 5 or so years. They would have been born at a time where self-driving is the way cars function and will feel safe using them. Also, smart city technology will aid in the car’s function and cut the danger factor to a minuscule.
My hope is that self-driving buses will come into play at a faster rate. One advantage is that communing buses can have a very refined set of rules and are limited to a particular route that can be set up in a way that helps the self-driving system.
The funny thing is that I will predict that self-driving flying cars will be much easier to put into service since they would have a lot less randomness to deal with. By the way, self-driving flying autos with limits are the only way for flying cars to become part of daily life. The last thing society needs is a bunch of people doing as they please a few thousand feet above the ground.
You are completely correct no self-driving cars this year.
@edest “You are completely correct no self-driving cars this year.”
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I mean, yes, but I don’t think that really is saying much. It seems everyone agrees they aren’t coming this year so I’m missing the innovative forecast that I have come to expect from Bob…
@edest
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People believe or say they want perfect but do they? There are volumes of academic papers and expertise in the surrounding risk and sociology domains. It is extensively well travelled law in the medical and health and safety domains. I don’t believe technologists or punditsare best qualified to lead this discussion just because we are discussing fancy toys. Engineers aren’t the experts either.
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One very lkarge example of this is how the games and movie industry tripped over each other and kept reinventing each others wheel in isolation. (Don’t get me started on UX experts…) The crossover point has since passed so this isn’t the contentious and territorial issue it used to be. On the other hand both industries have “Hollywoodised” like social media and developed an over-narrow focus with fewer opportunities for talented artisans and quality “B” movie and indy efforts. Very few people understand how systems and expertise and culture overlap and interact which is noticeable and problematic in the public policy sphere even with well established instititions and methods.
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I suspect at some level Elon Musk (and he’s not the only one) get this at an intuitive level. It’s not really the kind of conversation we have in the media today as the media now focus very narrowly in a dumbed down way with their eye on the clock.
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Could we have self-driving cars this year? I would say “Yes, but…” Yes we could. The problem is everything else such as instititions and society have to catch up. It’s going to take time for this to work through. Global warming helps in some respects because we have no choice but to go all electric which means everything else will tag along for free. I will also agree with some people who believe this will become mandatory if for no other reason the survival of the planet is at stake. There is no room for flatearthers or anti-vaxers in this discussion. There’s no point faffing with 5.56mm when you want to get the job done. Electric robocars are the 7.62mm SLR of solutions because we need something which will drop this problem like a sack of potatoes or we’re all D-E-A-D.
@TrashTalk — The survival of the planet depends on everyone driving a coal-powered car?
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It is so sad that people are falling for this. Do you not understand that the electricity has to COME FROM SOMEWHERE, and that somewhere pollutes just as much or even more than gasoline? Yes, we are doomed because so few of us can think for ourselves.
@Macro Investor: The argument that electric cars are simply “emissions elsewhere” cars because the electrical energy they use has to be generated somewhere has been around for decades. The thing is, it’s never been true. There are other ways of generating electricity than through coal. Certainly, we’ve still a long way to go before renewable energy becomes our primary source of electricity, but that doesn’t mean that it’ll never happen or that we shouldn’t build technologies that can make use of renewable energy.
@Adam Luoranen
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Exactly right Adam. Apart from narrow use cases coal has reached its EOL. Ditto gas and oil to varying degrees. Renewables and nuclear with fusion being a still distant but closer possibility are the future.
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There are very new advances with quantum mechanics which promise help with greater solar panel efficiency and energy use efficency. These are small advances but these kinds of things are happening all the time creating a slow but steady chipping away at the problem. I’m sure there are more advances being made in mechanical engineering and materials science and all the other processes which will contribute.
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There are many other challenges which are equally pressing which don’t get a gee whizz mention like agriculture and social care and a million and one other things but they are all full of exciting potential. Many of these may depend on robocars and in turn feed into not just economic and social policy but also contribute to mitigating global warming and land erosion and improving population managment and deconfliction.
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In many senses we are living through and all part of a “big heave” to change the world and make it a better place.
Mark, update the KS Mineserver page. Wtf is wrong with you?
Does Cringely have any pictures of his burned down house? I’m wondering what happened to his “done deal” insurance claim unless he lied about this. It’s preposterous but with no updates and no mineservers what are people to think?
Cringely’s house: https://imgur.com/a/C1W4RRY
Self-driving cars? Lots of hype. That’s where Elon is comfortable anyway – less so on the execution (Falcon Heavy to launch in 2012). Elon’s ace in the hole is that Steve Jobs bequeathed him his Reality Distortion Field in his will, so he gets a pass on that. Moravec’s paradox is certainly in play … and, while everyone is distracted by the notion of saving money, or time, or lives, there’s also the anxiety of 5,000,000+ middle class jobs removed from the economy. Take your time and let that one sink in.
Who really wants self-driving cars are the big-money players. Politicians want it because they’ll get more data (they’ll demand it with a law or subpoena), and even moreso they’ll get a horrifying level of control (imagine cops, FBI, CIA, NSA with a remote control to any car in the country … yeah, no way this will ever be abused). Expect a new tax on per-mile driving based on actual data. Silicon Vally wants it because again, data and control. Left coast, right coast, same shit. Wall Street wants it because car companies will have something exciting to sell, insurance companies will have far less to pay out (for the same premium, go figure), and retail companies will be able to get rid of those pesky employees demanding salaries, benefits, and 401k.
Self-driving cars are a win-win-win for lots of players that aren’t consumers. Remember that.
Also expect failures, and for the failures to be swept under the rug. Like the above poster mentioned, Watson gave the answer of “Toronto”, and when A.I. fails it will also fail spectacularly and for no obvious reason, unexpectedly.
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Community Prediction – Google Stadia will make virtual reality both possible and mainstream, while destroying the game console industry, even though Google shouldn’t be in this business in the first place.
Remember Google in its early days? “Don’t be evil.” (their stated motto) “Organize the world’s information.” (their stated goal) “We will never make a chat client.” (their promise they’ll never leave their primary area and take over other industries)
I remember it. Yes, all of those were real statements, from the very top of Google’s leadership. Those were the days. Now, Google announced Stadia, where consumers with a basic controller, a screen, and an internet connection can play any major video game (Xbox, Playstation, PC) streamed from Google’s local peering point datacenter. The promise is for 1080p resolution now, 4k maybe, and 8k soon.
Also note what’s missing from the discussion: Nintendo. My, that’s interesting.
Google’s own language for this is, “the datacenter is the platform.” In other words, the might of Google’s CPU power is the game console. This means not only are current game consoles obsolete, any consumer grade game console you can think of is equally pointless. Think about it: the potential for future games is no longer tied to what a console can do, but what Google’s horsepower can do. Think virtual reality, but even better than anything you’ve thought possible with 2019 hardware.
After all, Google’s datacenters are 2019 hardware.
But … even though Google can do this, the question is should they? Is this really the right business for Google to be in – killing Sony and Microsoft consoles, and probably making EA nervous in the process.
And yet, the genie’s out of the bottle. Microsoft has rumbled about such online gaming for years, with little to show for it. At the other end of the spectrum, Amazon and AWS are already building out their own version of Google Stadia. So no matter what, for Playstation and Xbox it’s game over.
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Mineserver folks: PLEASE learn the implications of this chart.
https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=minecraft
Minecraft came out in 2011. Its peak interest came in 2013 and it’s been downhill ever since. Mineserver was announced in 2015, when Mincraft was around 2/3 of its 2013 high. Now, Minecraft’s popularity is arguably 25% of where it was in 2013.
In short? Even if Mineserver didn’t have the baggage and drama it has, it would be a tough sell today (proof: how many new kickstarter entries do you see related to Minecraft?). Given the baggage and drama, it’s just not going to happen. No volume of blog comments will change that. It’s time to let it go.
As Joss Whedon once said, there’s a point at which revival attempts stop being CPR and start being necrophilia.
To everyone who believes Mineserver passes the threshold for relevance to RXC’s wikipedia bio, I’m patiently waiting to see mention of Steve Jobs: The Lost Interview (IMDB / Wiki) … or, his involvment in the Three Mile Island postmortem … or, his Startup Tour series … or, the Team Cringely moon shot.
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Fascinating video about Google Stadia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SRJO5n5xoQ
I don’t agree with or pay attention to American hype. There is plenty happening in Europe. Monetising telemetry and surveillance is not a mandatory rule based on the second law of thermodynamics. Neither it is a law that when Google does something it automatically has a global monopoly. I believe anyone who follows this kind of view by default has been brainwashed.
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Elon Musk is what he is. At the same time even his failures are better than many peoples successes. We have gone from expecting exciting space news once a decade to once a week.
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Cringelys failure is just a failure.
Howard – please understand the implication of virtually no one requesting a Mineserver, but instead expressing a desire to hold Bob accountable for his (empty) promises, his silence everywhere, most notably on the Kickstarter site. Everyone just wants closure, NOT a Mineserver. If closure equates to him actually delivering, great! If closure means he fesses up that this whole thing failed, great! If closure is just closure here on the blog, because he starts posting updates on Kickstarter where this all belongs, great! Take your pick. So how about you start directing any of your pleas or explanations to Bob. Also, you are quite free to update Bob’s wiki page yourself. Maybe if any of those topics also involved swindling tens of thousands of dollars out of people with no transparency, updates, or communication, then someone would have written about them.
Seriously; Roger Sinasohn get a fucking life.
@Michael Cunt — What’d I do now?
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@Howard — I don’t need a chart; I’ve got three kids. Even the youngest rarely plays minecraft anymore. As Bored said, it’s not about getting a Mineserver (though I doubt anyone would send it back if one showed up), it’s about holding Crookely accountable and, more importantly, making sure he doesn’t do this to anyone else.
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As for any accomplishments for which you think Crookely deserves credit, well, by all means — go update the Wikipedia page.
The Mineserver scandal is the only thing giving Cringelys blog an edge. Cringelys blog without the Mineserver scandal is like the Beatles without Lennon. Cheese without pickle. The Tories without Brexit. It’s not a USP I would recommend.
https://youtu.be/Ph8WZdvgXXQ
USP? Unique Selling Proposition?
@Ronc: Yes, a USP (variously expanded as “Unique Selling Proposition” or “Unique Selling Point”) is what differentiates a product in the market and what marketers and salespeople use to sell that product to customers. (The concept is obviously not new, but for some reason, I feel like I have been seeing this term on the Internet a lot recently.) trashtalk is jokingly implying that Cringely’s USP, the reason why people keep paying attention to him and reading his blog, is because of the Mineserver scandal. I’m not sure how many people are actually here for that reason; for me, Cringely’s USP is still season 2 of NerdTV. I still want to know who that “super secret guest” was.
@howard – when did Google ever say they wouldn’t create a chat client? Isn’t that what Google Hangouts started as?
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@ronc – in PUA / red pill lingo, USP would be however a guy theoretically answers my question, “why should I have sex with you?” In TT’s case her USP in the business sense and her USP in the sexual marketplace are the same thing. Simplicity?
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@burning bush – I doubt that’s Bob’s house. Where’s the RV? Plenty of space for one. Where’s the ultralight? For that matter, I don’t see a workshop large enough to build a kit plane, like rbe one he described in his “electric fancy” post.
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Isn’t mineserver llc (or corp) a registered company? Shouldn’t the state of California (or Delaware) have records of the company, with address?
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Whose-ever this address belongs to, does this house still stand? The fire map leads me to think yes, but online info is rarely complete or perfect.
@katie – It’s true. In their young, idealistic (and less powerful) years, Google had a philosophical page up called “Ten things Google has found to be true”. These days you have to use the Internet Archive’s Wayback machine to find the original text – it has changed, just like Google has. This was # 2 on the page, back in 2004:
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Yep. Google said they would not do chat (which, at the time, meant AOL Instant Messenger, MSN Messenger, ICQ, etc, all text-based.
Google Talk came out a few years later, supporting the open Jabber protocol I believe … still, raising a few eyebrows, and causing Google to make the earliest of many “tweaks” to their airy sounding corporate philosophy. Eventually Google Hangouts was created, and Google Talk was absorbed into it.
Point is, Google stopped doing “one thing really well”, and they’re not the company they used to be. I would say, the company they are now is not the company they were supposed to become. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
IA link for the curious.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040611064311/http://www.google.com/corporate/tenthings.html
Heh, remember the “Google search appliance” for companies’ internal documents? Wow! What a blast from the past.
https://youtu.be/ZUmY30lVxhY
[…] In what may be his final year of technology predictions, columnist Robert X. Cringely argues “I can’t say that we’re going to see anything beyond more beta tests of self-driving cars in 2019… We simply aren’t ready and probably won’t be for years to come….” […]
Cringely got his ritual Slashdot placement. Slashdot isn’t a place I visit for analysis. My personal attention is on public policy and the people doing solid working out.
As a vested interest I perceive additional benefits to robocars. They make life easy for visiting clients. Clients can experience the goods while in transit between meetings. I suspect the top end of the robocar market will do very well between airports due to extra facilities and space. Escorts will do very well and yes there will be an app for this integrating services with travel with accomodation. It will also be billable. As these kind of hospitality services cannot be obtained without consent this cannot be part of any contract so is simply a matter of private arrangement. Sex in the workplace is legal as long as there is no abuse of power or inappropriate behaviour. Restricting this is very likely an abuse of human rights. Because of the economics of ICE cars versus robocars this means what is effectively a service premium means free sex. On the simple calculation men don’t readily turn down sex and women don’t readily turn down money it follows that robocars have a built in market advantage.
I do like glamour and an excuse to wear nice things plus a hint of a little too much gloss on my lipstick. Champage and truffles while the world swooshes by? Heaven indeed.
@bored – Couple questions:
* exactly what would make you happy (or at least content)?
* do you have any expectation that it will happen?
* do you believe Bob will acquiesce to your demands?
Kickstarter surely has its own channels for dealing with grievances and deals gone bad. So …
* What happened when you took your case there?
* If you didn’t … well why the hell not, if it’s so important?
Sure seems like a more useful tree to go barking up, rather than Wikipedia edits and blog-comment pollution.
In short:
* what do you hope to accomplish here?
* for all the effort you’ve put in over the past few years … how’s it going for you so far?
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@trashtalk – “Champagne” from his “truffle”? Wow. I’ve heard colorful phallic euphemisms (Stormy Daniels ruined the super mario games for me after she said “Toadstool”), but I gotta say “truffle” is a new one. Hey, I won’t judge.
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I try to keep it clean and think happy thoughts.
Cringely, your argument doesn’t make sense. Idiot drivers do rule out driving close-packed 80mph on the freeway, because the new rules won’t work. But we already have freeway rules that allow idiot drivers to drive with each other, safely, a remarkably large fraction of the time. If autonomous vehicles obey those same existing rules, I don’t see how idiot drivers prohibit autonomous vehicles from being on the road. They wouldn’t make the existing situation any worse.
https://youtu.be/5ocvNxjN3dc
> pedestrians/cyclists — who are (I believe) the only people that society grants a “natural” right to use the road.
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Each of the 50 US states has their own ideas about that. In mine, pedestrians and bicycles *used to* have right of way over cars, but that changed over twenty years ago.
The local USAF base really ought to clue new arrivals in to out quaint local laws; new airmen regularly find themselves in local emergency rooms after stepping or cycling out into traffic that they expect will to a panic ABS-assisted maneuver to avoid them. Instead, they get a “learning experience”…
God you are a cunt Bob. Did you ever get that money back to the crowd that funded you? Or are you still stiffing them?
@Howard – I would be content if Bob officially killed the project, AND gave a sufficiently detailed account of what happened (how was money used, what ultimately killed the project, why the never-ending prolonged silences and empty promises). Just a final fessing up of what the heck happened and owning up to it. Do I expect that will happen? Honestly, not really. He’s not really given any indication of this level of responsibility. However, I do rather believe he would have just let the whole fiasco disappear to the wind if people hadn’t come to this blog in these attempts to hold him accountable. So in that sense, I see success in not just keeping quiet, and people continually trying to ask for answers.
“Acquiesce to your demands” is not how I would phrase it. 🙂 I get your point, but you seem to be implying it’s unreasonable to “demand” accountability for taking $30k+ with minimal effort in detailing how it is used (which is essentially the promise you make, using Kickstarter). But regardless, yes, I do in fact demand he take responsibility. But as stated above, I’m not sure he will. As @Roger also pointed out though, even if this only succeeds in preventing him from doing this again, or ensures people know what they’re getting into when trying to do business with him, then great.
Kickstarter does have a channel, but essentially says it’s not their problem. They provide the services of the site and put backers and creators together, and say that’s the end of it for them. They do not get involved in disputes or anything. However, they DO tell us to try to get a hold of the creator and work it out with them. Hey, that’s what we’re doing here. 🙂
In short, I hope to accomplish convincing everyone that essentially stealing $30k+ is not ok. Specifically convince Bob it’s not ok. Yes, it was freely given at the time. Yes, Kickstarter is not a store, and risk is involved. It elevates to stealing though when you never intend to return the value of it. People didn’t just pay for the Mineserver. They paid for the experience and journey and seeing what goes on. Bob stole all of that. He stays silent, misleads, promises and doesn’t deliver, and in a similar mindset as you, blames and harasses and insults the people trying to say that’s not ok. I understand you don’t want this conversation in the blog. As I said already though, tell that to Bob, tell him to take the conversation where it belongs (Kickstarter).
It actually takes minimal effort over the years, and I’m only a single, infrequent voice here for that matter. 🙂 Few minutes to catch up on comments here and there, chat with others who have been along for the ride. And occasionally spend a few more minutes typing a response. So yeah, I’d say it’s going quite well.
P.S Thanks for the PSA and providing the line spacing character.
To give credit where credit is due, I will say Bob did actually provide some details early on in the Kickstarter. Letting people know what was going on, issues encountered. As issues persisted though, communication decreased. Even when he once acknowledged “my bad for silence, regular updates from here!” (weekly I believe he promised), that lasted all of an update or two. And people only really started to get ornery when communication was clearly degrading, NOT when issues came up. In any case though, a few months of decent communication at the beginning does not make up for the treatment since then. Years of disrespect, no responsibility, and general lack of transparency. And as a gentle reminder, all of that also existed BEFORE the misfortunes with his house and eyes.
(I’m being blocked by spam blockers so going to attempt to segment my post to see where’s it’s breaking, bear with me and apologies. Lessens the impact of me finally posting, but oh well…)
Part 1 of X
I am also a backer but hardly ever post since it feels like a losing battle convincing people who don’t want to listen to any other side than the one they have crafted in their mind, but @Bored’s post really is getting at a lot of the core issues this Kickstarter campaign had and I would like to take this rare opportunity to piggy back off of what was said, namely how it ended.
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Bob was great with the Kickstarter campaign for months, this I agree with. Some people complained he didn’t post often enough, but progress was being made so I was thrilled to be a part of it. I didn’t really play Minecraft much anymore at the time, but was getting it for my little brother (who also no longer plays, FYI). My parents refused to pay a monthly subscription for my little brother to rent a MC server for him and his friends and I lack the technical know how to set up a server for him (AT&T didn’t seem to let me forward my port with their router and my parents didn’t trust us to not break things by buying our own). TMI, I know, but just laying the foundation that this was a bigger deal for my brother at the time.
Part 2 of X
I still remember the post where Bob said the Mineservers would be shipping. I remember telling my brother and his excitement and hearing him tell his friends and their plans. They’d be getting it that holiday season and would be off from school. They had such big plans! Unfortunately, it never came to pass, but if you looked at the campaign itself, you would never know this. In fact, I would like to post the last thing Robert Cringely EVER posted about ON Kickstarter, as I feel like this says it all:
Part 3 of X
(apparently he doesn’t like me quoting him, this is what is being spam blocked):
Given the lo_oming Thxanksgiving holiday and the ar)rival of Mi_mi from No-rth Car_olina with a pumpkin pie this sug_gests that we’ll finally start shippping the week after Thxanksgiving. Towward this end of shippping the week after nexxt we’ll shortly send out a new surrvvey to verrify delivery addresses
Part 4 of X
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…then radio silence…If no one came here many months later , I doubt we’d ever have heard from this man again. Like…what?!?! How do you go from “We’re shipping” and then NOTHING…for years! And you all have the audacity to tell us how great Bob is and that life happened (all of this happened before his life fell apart as people said) and it’s KS so we all need to get over it.
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This line is almost as dubious as the now infamous line of “If we had cases we could start shipping tomorrow.”. Bob has taken ZERO accountability that he played a few hundred people for $30k of their money and he not only refuses to post and admit defeat, but goes out of his way to belittle anyone who calls his methods into question. I’m not sure how things were in your generation, as I know I’m a younger person speaking to adults right now, but I was raised to hold my heroes to higher standards.
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Feel free to tear me a new one, that seems to be the general process here that is passed as acceptable with high fives amongst the Bob fans, but I personally will not be leaving this blog, lurking or otherwise, until I see an apology, a retirement, or a post on the KS site, so take your swings… *winces*
@Michael, I for one would like to apologize that you don’t feel safe posting here. I too have seen the “norm” of harassment that goes on in these comments and it’s really a dark chapter in Bob’s career. He not only allows it to continue, he’s leading the charge and shows no plans to put an end to it. While I wouldn’t call Bob one of my “heroes”, I did enjoy his content decades ago, but like many have said before me, I think his time has come and gone. The Kickstarter campaign is likely the only thing that is keeping Bob relevant at this point and what most of the people are coming here for anymore, which is an unfortunate way for Bob to be ending his career.
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I wish you no ill will, @Michael, and appreciate you sharing your side of the story. I admittedly haven’t bothered to go to the Kickstarter site, nor do I plan to, as it sounds like more trouble than it’s worth, but I think the only way anyone will be able to move on from this is for all sides to air their laundry, ideally in a safe environment where people feel comfortable to speak without being pelted with stones. Thank you for being brave enough to do that and do take care of yourself.
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Bob, you [used] to be better than this and I’d like to think you still are. It’s never too late to repent and be on the right side of history. Even if you did nothing wrong (I have no way of knowing one way or another), the fact that you don’t post on Kickstarter is suspect, so posting there would be the first sign that you have nothing to hide and do feel any sort of remorse for these people’s lives that have been thrown out of wack (the backers and your readers). The choice is yours, but know that all of us are watching you, so you continuing to do nothing is escaping no one’s eye.
Self driving cars will only work in a controlled environment. A key point that is rarely mentioned is the environment comprises of a lot more than just other, so-called, idiot drivers; pedestrians, visual noise, etc, The idiot self driving cars won’t be able to make moral decisions, cannot make complex decisions like where/when to pull over, and will fail with ambiguous/noisy visual information.
The technology will greatly enhance the idiot driver’s perceptions, automate some responses, and possibly enforce more responsible driving. Enhance is the word. The road is a not a factory floor. It is naive to believe it can be automated as such with self driving cars.
https://youtu.be/LLG-uT4q-kk
Speaking of questionable behaviour Reuters is reporting on AI systems being used for checking corporate expenses. It’s not as good as it claims in their headline pitch as they later admit it only catches one third and will never change human nature. The report of “allowed” and “questionable” expenses is arguable in a lot of ways. Nobody is a perfect corporate machine who springs out of a cupboard without a hair out of place and no emotional life. Many of those on the corporate ladder or who won the lottery of sought after skills acquire padded salaries. Some items may deserve being tax deductibles where there is a legitimate reason. Neither Madison Avenue or the Beatles would exist today if this filtering had been in place at the time. From what I can tell no AI system can properly accomodate this and the best is strictly level one with partial level two if you use the same scale as robocars. In that context I believe robocars are doing very well by comparision.
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I have done a little background research. I’m surprised Cringely hasn’t written about R&D tax incentives. Didn’t he hire a software contractor to work on his “innovation”? I have no idea how the financing of IT happens but I know venture capital gets up to a lot of questionable and economcially and socially corrosive activities.Hedge funds and the bond market are the tail which wags the democracy. This we know too.
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When was the last time you saw politicians competencies measured as accurately as robobars? Never? Yes we have voting records and various findings of enquiries but I have never seen a fully quantified profile laid out in a chart nor a grading by party of political body.
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How many people die or whose lives are ruined by these expert and human based systems?
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How many robocars at end of 2019 scale of best effort development will kill people or cause significant social-economic damage if rolled out globally?
@Dave
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As the Youtube I noted commented on the issue isn’t driving but experience. Robocars are an entirely different calculation to the perceived experience of driving today. They are not necessarily about being better if by better you mean dealign with random male egos in the movie of life flickering before your eyes. They are an issue of going from A to B while having a social or work experience not driving. Some well marketed concepts include point to point bubble cars for short distance urban travel. Others are more like a classy nightclub on wheels. Some are like small offices or meeting rooms. In factI would say the lower down the scale and more mass market you go the closer it is to driving but when replacing car pooling or medium to long distance transit or providing an enhanced experience to fill otherwise unusuable time the less and less robocars are about driving. Right at the top end the experience is simply a room which teleports from place to place. Yes, there is even the possibility of long distance sleeper vehicles like hotels on wheels. In the forseeable but still distant future it will be possible to step out of your door and join friends or work colleagues for drinks and a meal before retiring for the night and waking up in Tokyo, London, Moscow, new York, or wherever for breakfast before stepping out the door and getting on with your holiday or business trip. Currently a first class suite offering this is on limited and very expensive runs (think $40,000+ for a return ticket) but tomorrow may be affordable. I expect some eccentrics and wealthy or retired people may even permanently live on the go.
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Driving for most people is either a fraught experience or just a usually male fantasy of temporrary male dominance with them as the star of the show, or for some an occasional thrill like a fairgroudn ride. For people who drive for a living it’s a job. Some like it. Some do it because they have to. Robocarsbring the very real chance of spending driving time as holiday time or havign drinks with your friends or playign with your children. Would you rather do this or sit behind a circle of plastic with your blood rpessure going up?
@bored and @michael – Well done, guys. You succeeded where others before you did not.
You changed my mind.
I know, this sounds rather arrogant of me to make a big deal out of, but still … you weren’t supposed to do that! I mean … I had a (silly) schtick here, and now I have no more stomach for it. This is rather inconvenient.
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For what its worth, perhaps a good plan is to crowd-discuss a way forward, out in the open here, for Bob to see and hopefully adopt. Just as long as we promise not to take credit for it; he needs his pride. It’s only natural that he wants to save face, and he either believes if he keeps promising activity people will either forget or go away eventually. Or $ will appear. Who knows. Weird stuff happens sometimes (growing up I recall knowing about an eccentric, rich real-estate tycoon who briefly had a game show named after him; now he’s the leader of the free world. weird!)
I keep throwing out the Google Trends chart because it’s painfully obvious Mineserver cannot have a future. I think most of us know it, but I don’t know if Bob does … or if he does, he doesn’t let on and instead keeps hinting that something can happen eventually, when we can all agree it can’t.
Maybe that’s the best place to start: what can we all agree on?
* starting a kickstarter with teenagers was a mistake
* Mineserver was a great idea, whose time came and went, and needs to be funereally let go by all parties
* a decent description of what happened would not satisfy everyone, but it would satisfy plenty
I get the feeling Mineserver could only have worked as a short-term thing. They were kids, after all. Come to think of it, I wonder if Bob’s ideal exit strategy was for Mineserver to be acquired by someone … and that didn’t happen, then other issues arose (maybe the landscape changed? something technical changed and the thing didn’t / couldn’t work anymore?). It certainly can’t happen now. So it’s a bit of a quagmire.
People have thrown out mental illness and depression as part of the mix. These are not words to use lightly, and for my part I pray he finds wise counsel(ling) if he needs it. I refuse to insult in this manner, and have no tolerance for anyone else who would (I’m not calling anyone out, just speaking hypothetically).
I suppose his other option is to retire the Cringely brand altogether (for his part; let InfoWorld et al keep theirs) and reinvent himself fresh and new somewhere else … just without using his name or face, but perhaps still using his voice. I still like YouTube as a possibility there, something along the lines of Polymatter or Wendover Productions or Minute Physics or CGP Grey. He’d have to let go of IBM, though, else people would eventually figure it out (if they still care at that point) … but with sleuths sniffing out his address and his sons going off to college and adulthood, that can’t be easy.
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As an alternative (way forward), there’s always the pitchfork emporium!
I GOT ‘EM ALL!
—E Traditional
Ǝ— Left Handed
—{ Fancy
I EVEN HAVE DISCOUNTED CLEARANCE FORKS!
—F 33% off!
—L 66% off!
—e Manufacturer’s Defect!
NEW IN STOCK. DIRECTLY FROM LIECHTENSTEIN. EUROPEAN MODELS!
—€ The Euro
—£ The Pound
—₤ The Lira
@ Howard – Wanted to post something quick, lest I turn myself into a liar with my “only takes a few minutes….” time estimate. I appreciate your reversal, and 100% think all/most can agree on the points you listed. Or perhaps, Kickstarter with teenagers isn’t necessarily a mistake, but could easily turn into one (which it did). I don’t nitpick to be combative, just to be fair to other Kickstarters out there that might involve getting children involved.
As you alluded though, now the one person we need to convince is Bob. That it’s okay to let it go. Maybe intentions were good from the start, maybe he did simply want to sell off the brand and idea. Either way, success in any form (as far as delivering Mineserver) seems unattainable, or as you and others have pointed out, unnecessary (given downward trend of Minecraft popularity, and aging of kids who once were interested).
So for a way forward, I wholeheartedly throw my support behind a fair and objective recounting of what happened. As much transparent detail as possible. And then all agree to just let it go, lessons hopefully learned. (And also a good hearty chuckle at the pitchfork emporium)
If you guys are scheming a plan to get the big white chiefoff without anythign being learned or genuine reform I can tell you this soft soap won’t work with me nor people outside this ego-bubble. Please leave your politicland marketing fantasies for the television where they belong. My advice is if Cringely is that desperate he’d better get a lawyer because your’e turninh this into a #metoo moment and you don’t want this.
Cringely has loudly and widely pimped his kid(s) as C-level executives of the Mineserver project. The Kickstarter video and interview(s) clearly emphasize same. Cole’s LinkedIn profile (or someone representing Cole who created said profile for him) still lists “CEO, Mineserver LLC.”
Whereas Kickstarter (probably) doesn’t allow minor children to ‘own’ or ‘run’ projects — hence Mark’s continuing involvement — it seems quite clear to me that Mr. Stephens intended this undertaking as “a real-world business introduction” and possibly “a resume builder” for his offspring, or, at minimum, a father-child shared experience with (small?) business upside.
Now, on the subject of “real-world business introduction,” it is not unknown in the commercial sector for business(wo)men to fail, cut, and run — it’s just disappointing, in this case, to see the abject failure and disorganization covered up as “Yeah, yeah, pitchfork jihad, life tragedies, retirement beckoning, blah blah blah.” THIS is the underlying fundamental problem.
Don’t worry everyone, Bob will likely post another underwhelming prediction (any day now) to attempt to cover this up and keep the conversation moving away from the Mineservers. Try as he may, I’m not sure he can outrun this, save for retirement, and he may need to confront it sooner rather than later, especially considering he’s got his kids involved…
@Howard, I would like to purchase a —L from your emporium.
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Sadly I have burned some of my funds on a Kickstarter that is forever pending a resolution so my wife said I need to be smarter with my money. Your 66% off deal is too good to pass up! I was slightly saddened to discover that you didn’t invent this emporium and that these are shoddy knock offs (Last Year’s Model), so I’d like to know whether you’d consider coming down in price…
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In all seriousness though, thanks for the sincerity, the change of heart, and the laughs. Your participation here is appreciated and a welcomed addition as we seek answers from whoever is in charge (I’m not sure anymore).
@Kevin – Tell you what: today only, clearance forks are free! —L, —F, the works … limit 2 per customer.
We’re experimenting with other markets:
nun chuck* ====∞∞∞∞====
the torch ====(🔥
the lightsaber ** ====I:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::-
* Used to call it the “nun barry” … dunno what Chuck Norris did to Barry, but I’m wise enough not to ask.
** some angry space wizard with breathing problems dropped this the other day, ‘fore he flew off muttering something about “paddy” or “pad thai” or “padme”, whatever. Just don’t turn it on near a microwave.
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@trashtalk – #metoo … “pound me too” … sorry dearie, not meant to be. I’d never afford your rates, nor accept charity.
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Tuesday fun. Two Mike Rowe videos I think the whole crowd here should enjoy; Bob, too. He really has the Paul Harvey trick down, building up then revealing at the end.
Episode 68: A Nice Girl From Wisconsin
Episode 79: Bobby Brings Home the Bacon
“And now you know … the rest of the story.”
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https://youtu.be/rpCOjZvbAcY
My services are offered first on the basis of a relaxing and congeneal time. I have thrown out or declined clients who have different priorities. Pro-rata I’m very good value but only for clients who appreciate quality and the personal touch. The value proposition as an industry benchmark for “race to market clients” is extremely poor even where in theory the cost is cheaper. I almost always decline these clients.
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One of my very best clients is extremely well read in the classics. He has a knack of making his executive summaries more interesting than the actual books. Like Apple my product is the dongle. I’m not actually selling this. I’m getting money in exchange for enjoyable company and interesting conversation. The problem is nobody pays for this and male ego tends not to like to pay to have a woman be more clever or funny than them hence the dongle. It’s just a means to an end. I couldn’t care less about it at least in the commercial sense. Personally, yes, but this would be a different contract.
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The robocar market is no different. At the high end the likes of Rollys Roce will charge a stratospheric premium.The middle market for businessmen and families will be affordable with a slight premium. The cattle truck get you from A to B market will work and be cheap but that will be it. I expect the valeting market to be similar. At the cheap end expect fast turnaround and hose down interiors. (Expect under one minute changes of interiors and battery packs.) All of this will be many notches above 18th Century horse drawn carriages and backalleys because we’re a technically advanced civilisation which requires its comforts. During down time when most people are asleep robocars can also form part of a delivery network. During the day delivery vehicles might function as buses. There is nothing to stop robocars fulfilling a dual function at any time of day or night with each function cross-subsidising the other. All of these factors taken in the round reduces costs and brings opportunity closer to the market and shrinks the timeline.
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By compressing time and teleporting people robocars become in effect a TARDIS. This will be a technology unimaginable in the days of spice traders where a single ships cargo of spice was worth a Kings ransom. At the DIY handjob end of the market the very cheapest journey may cost no more than $1 when cross-subsidised with deliveries and network efficiencies.
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Wine, whine, whine we can’t afford it blah blah. Please!
[…] Source : Billet de blog […]
Re: A Nice Girl from Wisconsin … I had seen rumors about Steve Jobs being the son of a Syrian migrant (Banksy created an artwork about it). Thanks for the story. Fascinating!
How much for the Denali?
I don’t understand why we’re placing all the emphasis on the car and not on the roadway. It seems to me the whole autonomous driving system would work better if the roadway had embedded sensors, or even just passive markers, to help the cars guide themselves. In case of a whiteout, and autonomous car could fuse GPS data with road sensors to track a path. Smart sensors at intersections could advise a car on cross traffic. And really smart sensors might advise an autonomous car on nearby idiot drivers.
@eric – good point. I’ll extend it further: if the cars are going to have smarts baked in … why not let the cars talk to each other, become a mesh network? If each car is aware of what the other cars around it know and are planning on doing, there’s room for a lot more resilience.
This is true even if the majority of cars are still driven by humans.
Think about it – autonomous cars can make decisions in milliseconds using input from 100s of sensors plus information from neighboring cars. Human drivers hitting pedals and steering wheels communicate to their own car what their immediate intentions are, and their cars can tell the others what the human is doing so fast the auto-cars can move out of the way even if the human is trying to crash into them, in most cases.
Letting the cars communicate to each other also lets them tell each other about the obstacles they see in the road. A fuller picture of the environment from multiple cars’ worth of sensors, plus a broad view of what each car is planning on doing?
Sure sounds like a winning scenario to me. Combine with smarts built-in to the road – sensors, beacons, etc, and now we have a driving system we can feel pretty confident about.
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Think of it another way: from the perspective of a gigahertz CPU, there’s an eternity between a human moving their steering wheel, and that car making a significant movement. Even moreso between a human touching a pedal, and that car turning that action into motion. That eternity is plenty of time for the human-driven car to tell its neighbors what it’s up to, and for its neighbors – perhaps even the human-driven ones – to react.
I could imagine a scenario where some types of crashes become impossible, because even the human-driven cars will override their masters when need be. Not all crashes and not all the time, but … well, it’s a fun possibility to think about.
@eric
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I wondered for years why they never buried gudiance wires in the road. It seems like a much simpler idea. (Don’t we all know the spacepen joke?) I’m sure there are lots of technical reasons for and against. Mesh networks have been discussed fairly intensely on other blogs. One item which keeps slipping past people is integrated transport systems. I’m pretty sure the maths of all this taken together gets very wild.
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Another item is technology has a way of dating otherwise classic movies which could have been filmed yesterday. Mobile phones? CRT displays? Robocars will do the same. I sense an opportunity for an enterprising director to make a comedy with robocars being a key plot device. On a subliminal level this can normalise robocars and help people navigate the fear angle. It could be any decent story maybe something like Groundhog day or similar with an everyday and human touch. Love stories? Domestic strife? Going postal at work? One day not only the fabric of life will be in movies with robocars but one day we will look back on today like we do with jerky black and white movies. Speaking of which I hope we have hit peak Marvel/Star Wars/Disney. The movie industry needs to change the record. Seriously.
@howrad – speaking of 50-year cycles, it was 50 years ago (and change) that Intel was founded. So it’s hilarious to hear in that video, among other things, the notion that Robert Noyce and the silicon microchip are what allowed Britney Spears to win Grammys:
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Touché!
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@trashtalk – Speaking of dated technology, check out this video. Who here remembrs AT&T’s “You will” advertising campaign? It was 1993, and each spot gave visions of what the future looked like.
A quarter century ago, this was the future they were promising. What’s fascinating is, just how much these adverts got right. Maybe AT&T didn’t directly deliver all these things, but still.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZb0avfQme8
There are already many fully driverless train services around the world.
This is orders of magnitude easier to do, but it’s still not simple, and it’s still far from routine. It can only be done on rail lines where access to the line is highly controlled, and detection systems for obstacles are in place. So it tends to be high-tech urban metro lines – not rural freight trains.
Howard writes:
“good point. I’ll extend it further: if the cars are going to have smarts baked in … why not let
the cars talk to each other, become a mesh network? If each car is aware of what the other
cars around it know and are planning on doing, there’s room for a lot more resilience.”
Which means that cars will be subject to viruses, denial of service attacks, spoofing, etc. — all the problems
we see on the Internet today. And if we have the technology to prevent all that, why aren’t we using it
*today* to protect computers on the Internet?
And it’s one thing whenever Microsoft screws up and a Windows software update accidentally “bricks” your
PC. Imagine when the auto companies screw up and thousands of cars get “bricked!”
I love this magical future that the self-driving car advocates always fantasize about — nothing ever goes
wrong there!
trashtalk writes:
“I wondered for years why they never buried gudiance wires in the road
It seems like a much simpler idea.”
Uh, because it’s effin’ expensive? Because there are serious issues regarding cost,
installation, power, signal standards, maintainence etc., none of which have been
addressed?
What happens when there’s a power outage? What happens when a junction box
is knocked over? What happens when a line gets cut accidentally by a work crew?
I’d say educate yourself on road building and repair and then ask the question, but
if you do that, you’ll already know the answer.
Can’t we keep this professional? I also don’t appreciate being mansplained. show me the report and risk analysis and costings and i may take what you say more seriously. No we can’t because “snarky handwave” isn’t an answer.
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“Effing expensive”? Ok, so how expensive is a human driven modern car with all its additional weight from comforts and safety features including a lot of weight simply to protect against human driver caused accidents? How much of this extra weight adds to the need for deeper road foundations and constant resurfacing? (Lorries cause most of the damage. A lot of this could be avoided if rail freight was used and planning and infrastructure was built around this.) How expensive is the motherboard in your average computer? Yes, I am aware of the broad architecture and taking 4000+ people to design this from the ground up including discrete components and at least some of the range of specialities from chemistry to quantum physicists to process engineers not just talkign heads and VLSI engineers.
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Then there are opportunties and opportunity costs. Where to begin? Call an economist and a sociologist and a statistician.
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It’s not my job to do this. Governments, universities, and organisations are best equipped for thisbut then my comment was a speculative informed question not a random shot in the dark. It was perfectly legitimate to ask this so please take the snide somewhere else.
One could wonder if Cringely is amongst us…
@Bob Boblaw one could wonder but I opt to not and just ASSUME he is. If he makes his presence known, he is jumped on from both sides like a swarm of paparazzi, so internet anonymity is his best bet if he wants to add to the conversation post publication. Any comment from the REAL Robert X Cringely would likely exist just to throw people off the scent that this is the case…
@Howard wrote:
“Think about it – autonomous cars can make decisions in milliseconds using input from 100s of sensors plus information from neighboring cars. Human drivers hitting pedals and steering wheels communicate to their own car what their immediate intentions are, and their cars can tell the others what the human is doing so fast the auto-cars can move out of the way even if the human is trying to crash into them, in most cases.”
This is not unlike the way that fly-by-wire controls work in modern airliners today; the pilot communicates his/her intent via the controls and the computer attenuates that input based upon the aircraft’s current orientation, speed and flight conditions. Just as an Airbus prevents its pilot from putting it into a stall or a spin a robocar could prevent its driver from crashing it.
I wrote a comment last night which noted a number of points including ethics and different modes of reasoning. I deleted it because you need about five PhDs to follow it. This article does not capture things how I like but it does touch upon biases and ignorance for Googles proposed AI committee. They are not the only commitee but a big name and have influence and these kinds of arguments are important and apply generally. To some people this kind of thing is just a business as usual exercise in office politics which is exactly why these kinds of committes if allowed to pass through on the nod can be very dangerous. All it takes is one persistent rogue actor to twist a committee discussion. Because of office politics these things tend to be missed and everything appears to be above board. Private deliberations where the nuances of communication may not be recorded in casual or sometimes absent minutes are often where the evidence of malpractice is buried. Not one single individual can be trusted hence systems such as fly by wire polling systems which vote on a result and auditable systems and post-incident examination of data recorders. The rogue actors may havegot their punch in first. Thankfully, this article highlights that people are actively verifying and insisting they have the final word before Google mechanistically commits to creating a tainted commitee.
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https://www.technologyreview.com/s/613253/googles-ai-council-faces-blowback-over-a-conservative-member/
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“Not only are James’ views counter to Google’s stated values,” the letter states, “but they are directly counter to the project of ensuring that the development and application of AI prioritizes justice over profit. Such a project should instead place representatives from vulnerable communities at the center of decision-making.”
@trashtalk: Sorry, a bit off-topic, but isn’t it being a bit arrogant to imply that the people here are not smart enough to understand your comments? You’ve obviously contributed many intelligent insights to the dicussions here in the past weeks, but don’t assume that just because we don’t have “five PhDs” (how many do you have?), we won’t be able to follow your line of reasoning; that isn’t much different from mansplaining, is it? 🙂
With some issues it helps to have a baseline. “fFive PhDs” is shorthand. Some job titles claim a Masters is a minimum in some fields. This isn’t anything to be dogmatic about because how knowledge is applied and a spectrum of soft skills. It’s nothing to do with academic smarts but do you simply know enough about the topics and have the slkills to navigate this.
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A PhD is simply a piece of paper. An MD/GP is just a toffee nosed blowhard who monopolised the term to gain social status. The etymology of “doctor” is simply a person acknowledged by their peers as being expert in their field.
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Nothing arrogant at all if you stop and think about it.
@trashtalk – are you referring to, for example, the trolley problem?
AKA Erica Shepherd’s dilemma.
@Middle Man – Please read my comment again. It is not people I call out as idiots in which case it would be idiots’s comments but the reference is to – idiotic comments which are entertaining. The difference is not only of essence but also of substance. 🙂
Well that clears things up: https://wikidiff.com/substance/essence
@Howard
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Bandwidth and intersectional structures.
A control for SDV with autonomy higher than class 3 cannot be designed as a programmable device of any kind due to the scalability problem.
The decision made for delegating control to a driver, in vehicles with class 3 autonomy, as needed, is unacceptable due to impossibility have uninterrupted awareness of driver to situations on the road for many hours of noninvolvement.
Actually, that decision is an evident attempt to make a driver responsible for accidents.
Regards,
Michael
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Kurye
Very expensive shared. thank you.
I was given the task of writing an essay on management. My work process has stopped on choosing a topic. There are two options that good me: “Why is it important to identify risks in a project?” or “Communication in the field of innovation.” Or is it better to get management essay help from professional writers?
This is fine “Communication in the field of innovation”
Great article. Thanks