Whatever happened to baby steps?
Last week a 49 year-old Arizona woman was hit and killed by an Uber self-driving car as she tried to walk her bicycle across a road. This first-ever fatal accident involving a self-driving vehicle has caused both rethinking and finger-pointing in the emerging industry, with Uber temporarily halting tests while they figure out what went wrong and Google’s Waymo division claiming that its self-driving technology would have handled the same incident without injury. Maybe, but I think the more important question is whether these companies are even striving for the correct goal with their cars? I fear that they are over-reaching and simply trying to do too much too soon.
Let’s be clear: the obvious goal of Uber is to eliminate drivers from its fleet, saving money. It’s likely, too, that no Uber passenger will ever be harassed or raped by a self-driving car. Waymo’s goal is probably the same given that the company says it will shortly begin testing its own driverless car service, also in Arizona.
The self-driving goal for private cars owned by their passengers is likely to be somewhat different. I might want to read a book or watch a video while my car drives itself. Or maybe I’d say “go find a parking place.” This certainly seems to be where Tesla, for example, seems headed with its autopilot feature.
But what are the societal goals for self-driving vehicles? These come down to safety and increasing system capacity. Society has little incentive to put human drivers out of work and on the dole.
Cars driven by computers are supposed to eventually be much better at driving themselves than human drivers, resulting in fewer accidents and deaths. If that driver is my 16 year-old son, Channing, we may already be there.
For government the clearest incentive for self-driving cars is to save money overall by putting more cars simultaneously on the road. Look at a Google’s worth of news stories about self-driving cars and you’ll hardly ever see this even mentioned, yet it is by far the biggest incentive of all. Which brings me to a story….
When we were shooting Triumph of the Nerds back in 1995 for PBS and Channel 4, series director Paul Sen came from London knowing only one person other than me in California – his cousin who worked for the State of California as an engineer working on self-driving cars!
That was 23 years ago. Who knew this technology had been in the works for so long?
But Paul’s cousin’s tech wasn’t the self-driving tech we see today. His cars weren’t autonomous at all. They were part of a system that was, if not centrally controlled, certainly centrally monitored. The idea was to wire-up every highway and every car driving on that highway so they could work together to get as many passengers as possible from place to place. The selling points were simple: 1) cars would drive precisely one meter apart, increasing the number of simultaneous cars on the road and reducing energy consumption through NASCAR-style drafting to reduce drag and improve mileage, and; 2) every one of those cars would travel at the speed limit which might well be raised specifically for centrally-controlled driving.
Paul’s cousin told us that driving one meter apart would allow five times as many cars to share the highway, eliminating the need for new highway construction, saving billions. Cars would change lanes only to get on or off the highway or to go around obstructions like stalled cars or road repair crews. Everyone would drive everywhere at 80 mph, which was the rated design speed for the Interstate Highway System. Even driving at 80 mph the road would be safer because any collision would involve a differential acceleration of less than one meter, which was within the capability of the five mph bumpers of that era.
Even if the car ahead slammed on its brakes and you bumped into it, chances are there would be no damage.
Where are the self-driving proponents today telling us that they will save on highway construction, dramatically increase system capacity, and significantly reduce travel time? They don’t make any of those claims, citing only the possibility of improved safety as a societal benefit.
Ironically that system from 1995 could be implemented today almost for free using GPS, WiFi, and cellular data. No highways would need to be wired and even the need for servers would be minimal.
So why don’t we go back to that simpler idea of driving ourselves to the highway then letting the road take over until we exit? Well it misses the goal of autonomously driving on all kinds of roads, but more importantly it would be difficult to patent given the very work done those many years ago, now in the public domain.
Like most R&D today it comes down to controlling intellectual property and getting rich (or richer).
Now back to the idea of taking baby steps. Handling the highway part first would have saved enough money to more than pay for everything else. And we RIGHT NOW could be driving from San Francisco to Los Angeles at 80 mph while reading a book. On a door-to-door basis that would probably be just as fast as the $67 billion California High Speed Rail Project that won’t be ready until 2029.
While high speed rail saves energy on a seat-mile basis, the energy economics aren’t nearly as good if you count the energy used to build the system.
So why haven’t we been doing this incrementally? Well mass transit people like railroads and self-driving car moguls like monopolies so I guess that explains it. But to me it looks like both self-driving entrepreneurs and regulators aren’t doing their jobs right.
You commies are all about centralized systems. We libertarians are about decentralized systems. Never mind reality.
“at Mineserver LLC and will have a revised design ready to go shortly….Look for a spec update and a new shipping schedule in a couple more weeks, followed shortly by a clever marketing announcement you may enjoy (it’s Fallon’s idea).” – January 2, 2018
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At this point you’re going out of your way to ignore the issue. Everyone wants closure. Check our your Kickstarter site which has people BEGGING for information and all you give us is silence…
Having the cars cooperate is far more technically challenging than you imply. Under normal circumstances it is indeed simple. But all it takes is one adversary transmitting nefarious data to wreak havoc. Eg it could convince cars ahead to stop while convincing those behind to speed up into them. Or convince cars to take unnecessary detours. Or the usual trope of turning them into remotely guided missiles.
We do not have a track record of securing software, hardware or radio waves, and I’m extremely sceptical that we will suddenly start doing so. What this means is the safest implementation is to assume that the other cars and roadways are lying, which means greater safety buffers are needed.
And no doubt we’ll see a repeat of the Hollywood DRM efforts where strong legal attempts were made to prevent researchers looking for problems. Heck no self driving system today makes their code public for auditing and research, and I doubt they’ll start doing it.
TLDR: I agree with your general prognosis but don’t think we will get anywhere near the promised efficiencies
The one problem is that on many highways you hit a point where 80mph is unsafe, but you don’t want to slow the whole trip down just for the one stretch…and then you have the very problem that causes consistent bottlenecks all across the country.
Case in point, Interstate 66 through Falls Church into Arlington, approaching Washington, DC.
There is a very long straightaway with only a mild curve from the East Falls Church metro to half a mile before the Fairfax road exit. In this straightaway, cars start doing “nascar” like tailgaiting. it is straight and wide and drivers who like 80mph try to push it…
…but at the end of that long straightaway the curve is unsafe at 80mph. It is unsafe at 65, and is the reason the road is officially 55. Somebody has to brake when they get there. At that point, because everybody else is tailgating, they all have to brake as well.
Now you get into the chain reaction effect, because not everybody brakes at the same rate of deceleration, and not everybody trusts that the car in front of them is only braking enough to safely make the curve. You usually brake more than you need and then accelerate again.
So when the person in front of you brakes to 65, you need to break to 60 to be safe. The car behind you needs to brake to 55 to be safe. that means it only takes 12 cars to cause a full stop, from which the road will never recover until night time when finally there are so few cars that the road is basically empty.
This is a daily occurrence, and doesn’t need rush hour to trigger.
So the computers that make those decisions need to anticipate quite a ways ahead, programming gradual slowdowns of the system along the way in order to have the cars at that 55 when the moment comes…but put enough cars on the road and it ceases to work: at some point there are cars in the 65 zone (or 80 zone) that are having to slow down to 55 because there are so many cars in the 55 zone they can’t get them all through. The bottleneck has been reached. There are just too many cars entering the system that they can’t flow through fast enough.
And these types of curves, mountains, lost lanes, dense merge spaces, and stoplights at the end of off-ramps that are badly timed so the stopped cars bleed onto the highway, are scattered throughout the whole system.
And you’re talking about adding MORE cars to that, where the number of cars involved is the very root of the problem?
You can’t fix the curve. There’s too much private property involved and people’s patience with eminent domain went down to zero after the London, CT lawsuit and how it is being used to abuse other minority housing areas…and in these cases, the property owners are rich and white, not poor and minority, so they have a systematic advantage.
The problems of scale I think are too insurmountable, even before the Will Smiths of the nation turn off their auto-drive like he did in “I, Robot”.
The main weakness of self-driving vehicles that has not come up yet in public is what happens when the local kids discover that a self-driving vehicle will always brake to avoid an accident – this means that anyone can simply drive like a b’tard and cut the self-driving vehicle off anytime – it will generally give way. They are going to have a lot of fun at the self-driving vehicles expense.
As far as the energy costs of road versus rail – nobody ever seems to include the cost of the Highway Patrol enforcing the traffic laws – we currently send a lot of energy and time having the police drive around enforcing the speed limits, drinking/drive and road-rage behavior … all costs that are radically different for rail transport.
A centrally-controlled driving system will fail. Who’s going to build it? The government? Ha. Too expensive and it will take too long, not to mention who would trust it? Competing systems of autonomous vehicles will eventually be safe. The companies that build them may (already have?) create a way to share information with each other, which could accomplish many of benefits of a centrally-controlled system. The only role the government should play is to create autonomous vehicle lanes.
The problem with the wired-streets system that California engineers were working on the 1990s is that car manufacturers couldn’t trust the states and cities to keep potholes filled and traffic lights coordinated, much less install and maintain the electrical systems to make wired streets and highways. So companies like Volkswagen (whose research provided the foundation for Google’s cars) and General Motors (whose research provided the foundation for Uber’s cars) decided to build cars that didn’t rely on special infrastructure and could use basic road and street infrastructure. Considering that the U.S. Department of Transportation cancelled that early research program right after UC Berkeley engineers demonstrated their cars driving a few feet apart, it seems likely that the current direction is going to get us driverless cars faster than waiting for the government to install hundreds of billions of dollars worth of new infrastructure.
Having vehicles cooperate to form a Nascar peloton would require all vehicles on that roadway to be of the appropriate vintage/capability (and is thus a major hurdle). Having autonomous vehicles (that are also de-facto capable of cooperation in the future) is an incremental step in that direction. Once there is sufficient saturation of autonomous cooperation-capable vehicles, you can start restricting certain roadways (or lanes) to said vehicles (perhaps initially based on time-of-day/day-of-week, a la HOV lanes) and thus maximize infrastructure utilization.
Once can only hope that if the local kids discover that they can drive recklessly and the autonomous vehicle prevents the accident that they soon discover that a full video recording with lidar produced 3-D models has also been forwarded to the police from several AVs that witnessed the incident and they lose their license. You are also making the assumption that the self-driving car is identifiable which although true at the moment with the technology being used for testing is unlikely to be true for very long.
Don’t know the tech stuff, but the point about trusting gov to keep potholes filled, etc. is RIGHT ON.
San Diego can’t even make a pothole repair last a month even when they do get to repairing it.
AND then they blame it on heavy (an inch or less or?) rain fall, as asphalt were water soluble or the NE and mid west didn’t have REAL rain.—SD is one example of laughably incompetent gov re infrastructure. I remember one pothole fix that died it about a month and it was under a MAJOR freeway overpass–i.e. WELL protected from the whores of water.
Car driving on a wire system would still have to be on the look out for people stepping in front of them.
I suppose that self-driving cars are kinda like Mineservers… it’s been more than a couple of decades since folks started working on self-driving cars and, similarly, it will likely be several decades before anyone sees a Mineserver.
I don’t see how any state will let a self-driving car exceed the speed limit, which until they do, makes those cars a driving hazard in many jurisdictions.
Broken record…
Just like in your Triumph of the Nerds it seems like these companies need to be sharing their findings and showing them at the brew club to better the system. No more sharing culture to develop this tech. The companies seem to just go after eachother over the radar technology used in the self driving cars. Looking forward to more Triumph of the Nerds sequels!
At this point, you’re going out of your way to ignore the fact you aren’t getting one. Get over it already.
There seems to be two camps when it comes to developing self-driving cars. One system seeks to replicate the human, giving full autonomy to the system in isolation from all other self-driving vehicles, simply replacing the human. A second system seeks to build some level of an all-seeing, master-controlled driving infrastructure where all vehicles in an area are cooperatively sharing information and planning as a homogeneous collection to determine the optimum way for each vehicle to proceed.
I point this out because I’ve not noticed any coherent plan by governments across North America to ensure that there is a shared goal and minimal standards upon which these vehicles will be permitted to operate. Yes, it would seem that the plan currently is to simply award the first team across the finish line (whatever and whereever that is in this race) license to go driverless.
While it is fine to let competing computer operating systems duke it out for market dominance, I’m not convinced that releasing a selection of non or semi-compatible self-driving vehicles into the open roadway is the best way to implement and deploy this ‘killer’ technology.
I hope that this Uber tragedy causes a deep, serious pause and consideration of the consequences of this still-raw technology by both regulators and developers and that they will seek to establish a clear and comprehensive set of continental standards by which this new technology must comply before returning to the road.
Its my hope that such a determined effort will help ensure that this is the last crash of the new Road OS.
I don’t buy the notion that a mass of cars sailing along together at 80mph won’t result in a mass of cars in a big accident if the leading car slammed on a brake. Whatever will have caused the first to suddenly brake is unlikely to be in concert with the others, and so their will have to be a chain reaction that surely will end in tears.
The other problem you don’t mention is the notion that autonomous cars will always be safely driving along side other autonomous cars. Unless everyone abandons their non-autonomous car at the same time, the two will have to mix. So that self-driving car that slams on the brakes is likely to be trying to avoid a non-automous car that is completely out of the control of any autonomous system.
I really don’t think the technology should be allowed beyond safety via backup processes, where the car only takes evasive action if the driver hasn’t done so. This technology already exists, and it can be made better. That’s where we should be focusing things. Leave the idea of everyone having a self driving car to the movies and Sci-Fi.
No, it’s not “almost for free”. GPS is not reliably accurate enough to manage cars that close. So now you need to add a system to compensate by judging distance to nearby cars. The technology exists, and some cars have it, but it will increase the cost and require people to retrofit existing cars. How do all the magic self-driving cars cope with a random person in a non-managed car? You need to develop all of the technology for autonomous driving anyway to deal with that case, I suppose alternatively you could convince everyone in America to simultaneously buy new cars or upgrade their existing ones, but that’s wishful thinking.
That beautiful line of cars running 1 meter apart? That’s 28ms* for each car to react to something unexpected happening one car ahead. No way you’re asking a central server for advice; it’s at least 50ms away, probably much more. So now we need a lot of intelligence locally to detect such problems and identify the right solution, all within 28ms. I think it’s feasible, but it’s not “almost for free.”
* You’ve got longer, since the car ahead won’t stop instantly. But neither will your car. Assuming both cars have similar braking effectiveness, your case has 28ms to start optimally braking when the car ahead of you does.
From AzCentral Gov. Doug Ducey: Self-driving cars allowed on Arizona roads without human behind the wheel
http://azc.cc/2FID8iY. I live in the test zone on a street with no sidewalks or lights and a cul de sac which Uber Volvo’s trolled day and night, one time 3x in 14 minutes. One night we walked the dog around the block and the deadly Uber Volvo entered our street as we approached home. There were citrus bins on the street to collect the neighbor’s oranges. The car slowly adjusted out to avoid the bins and we were next. To our shock, the car made no change for us nor slow down as it passed close enough that I felt I could reach out and touch the car. Blinkers were on to make a right turn behind us. We’re we supposed to jump off the road to avoid the car? Creepy feeling. Gov Ducey distinguished himself by making my street a proving ground for self driving vehicles jeopardizing it’s citizens. He set up a self driving safety committee which met one time in August 2016. Before this horrific accident, I emailed the Gov’s office which thanked me for my interest and to a committee member who is public affairs lead for the state insurance department, but got no reply. Waymo was running driverless and without safety driver minivans in Chandler for several months. Watch out pedestrians.
I don’t think there is anything inevitable about fully self-driving cars: I hope they get litigated into oblivion. We don’t need them, and we don’t need to wait until thousands of people die because of them.
My worry is that the automobile lobby becomes more powerful than the NRA. What’s worse than a semi-automatic weapon? A fully autonomous vehicle.
Don’t they have deer in California?
The problem with a complete exclusive system like that is that it would require every car that might ever want to drive on the highway system to have it installed, just to drive on the highway system. A self driving car startup, even one owned by Google, can’t dictate to the highway system how it should be built or operated, or dictate to car manufacturers and current and near future car owners how their current and future cars must be built. All that, again just for a partial solution that would soon be supplanted by newer technology.
I say let a thousand flowers bloom. Let them compete for market share and ty multiple different approaches. The last thing we need is a bureaucratically imposed one size fits all system that by design doesn’t even solve all the problems.
>Don’t they have deer in California?
Asking the real questions. I’ve never seen this addressed, either.
What makes “platoons” of cars work is communication: When the first car sees a hazard and brakes, that information is immediately communicated to the rest of the cars. Thus, the cars all slow at the same time, rather than waiting for driver 2 to notice brake lights and respond; driver 3 to notice driver 2 slowing down, etc.
This can happen almost instantaneously. True, each car has its own braking distance, but a conservative system can handle that. It could actually be done today, with automatic brakes (already available) and robust car-to-car communications.
It would be possible to allow physically separated roadways to have a separated speed limit (e.g. 70-80 mph). This is already done in some locales with “express” or HOV lanes.
I want a self-driving car before I’m old enough for my adult kids to ask me to hand over my car keys.
Plenty of deer in CA. People frequently swerve to miss them and end up in a ditch. If you ask CHP about this, their advice is to just hit the damn deer. They are not big enough to get onto the hood or thru the windshield, so it’s the safest way.
People who drive in moose territory are already risking their lives. Big, dark, nocturnal, and if you hit one it can come thru the windshield and injure or kill.
You’ve had a tough audience here. In general it appears that most have “implemented” you description, exactly as you described it, as a strawman and then proceeded to knock it down. There are many obvious enhancements to your description of the 1990’s system, some of which you alluded to. You tried to propose a more modest, more achievable set of goals, and people reacted as if you were proposing a technology.
My problem is with your phrase, “societal goals”, and it’s not a problem with you, it’s a problem with us, with our society. Say “societal goals” and the first accusation will be, “Socialism – the most EVIL thing in existence!” As a result of that deeply implanted bias, the US has no societal goals. Into that vacuum, about the only things that shows up as “societal goals” are GDP, Dow Jones, NASDAQ, revenue, profitability, etc. Other things like literacy rate and infant mortality are seldom mentioned. Medical costs get mention, but sadly a share of that is blaming people for choosing to overuse the medical system. No wonder we’re where we are, and no matter how much we talk about income inequality not being good for the long run or anything else like that, we’re doing absolutely nothing about any of it. It’s not profitable.
“That was 23 years ago. Who knew this technology had been in the works for so long?”
Umm…anyone who watched History Channel ~20 years ago?
This was highlighted in a segment on Modern Marvels s7e23 in 2000 entitled “Trucks”. The test truck demoed in that episode had already been under development for about a *decade*.
Self-driving vehicles aren’t “new” – the *hype* ay be new, but the concept is anything but.
Realistically there are no technological problems in the transportation space, only social political problems. There are places in the western world where TRAINS are still driven by people.
Its just power dynamics. A much more unified society will eat the lunch of the individualistic west.
America has a social program
H-1b breaks the social contract between US citizens and their government, and introduces an insidious form of hidden violence against working people waged by the same corp mindset which justified introducing slavery in colonial America.
David Ricardo
(18 April 1772 – 11 September 1823) was an English political economist.
Ricardo is the source of the concepts behind the so-called Iron Law of Wages, according to which wages naturally tend to a subsistence level.
He was also an abolitionist, speaking at a meeting of the Court of the East India Companyin March 1823, where he said he regarded slavery as stain on the character of the nation.
I am very skeptical of self-driving cars, but the woman who died was not a fault of the autopilot.
Yes the backup driver was not paying attention, but looking at the video it is unlikely it would have made a difference. Unless Google has full radar, their car would have hit. A human driver likely would have hit, although it is possible they would have been more perceptive and seen something sooner than it appears on camera.
The woman ran into the car’s path, and is not visible until the last second. If anything, a self driving car might be more able to avoid a collision here.
Also, the path she was on is not intended for pedestrians, and has signs saying so. However, the location of the path makes it irresistible to use.
@MikeN She was only visible at the last second because the video was tuned to make it look that way. Modern cameras can literally see in the dark. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bTgG2Ft4xQ)
Anti lock breaks are a commie take over
On the other hand the h1b program that replaces Americans with imported Indians goes unnoticed, unreported
Where is the outrage on the h1b social worker replacement programme ?
That is much more immediate than self “driving” cars
Animals can be at fault, children etc
Self driving cars don’t slow down for potential danger, people take preemptive action
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150217/06182930052/elon-musk-clarifies-that-teslas-patents-really-are-free-investor-absolutely-freaks-out.shtml
Sorry I somehow clicked the post button. I meant to add that I believe Tesla allows free use of their patents. Originally I thought of it in terms of their batteries but the way Elon Musk discusses it, it seems like it applies to all of their patents. Even those associated with self driving cars:
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150217/06182930052/elon-musk-clarifies-that-teslas-patents-really-are-free-investor-absolutely-freaks-out.shtml
Sorry I somehow clicked the post button. I meant to add that I believe Tesla allows free use of their patents. Originally I thought of it in terms of their batteries but the way Elon Musk discusses it, it seems like it applies to all of their patents. Even those associated with self driving cars.
This idiotic autonomous car thing is an idea Michael Crichton threw in his trashbin years ago because it was too boring. Also there was no biological component. I’m comfortable with today’s trains at today’s speeds, but I like European trains a whole lot better.
You had me at “drive the speed limit.” I visit several times a year and not even the police attempt to drive the speed limit. The roads were carefully designed to serve people driving the speed limit. Yes, there are too many cars, and yes the highway system cannot perfectly anticipate the desires of real estate developers and large employers. However it seems likely that a degree of autonomy will resolve many of these problems most of the time. It’s just going to take while to replace the current fleet.
It strikes me that the state has enjoyed no small degree of success educating the public about cigarettes, energy efficiency, and water conservation. When it comes to automobiles I can only describe citizens as having a rather queer attitude. I hope they will accept and use “the force” as it becomes more widely available.
I hadn’t considered the energy saving component (reduced drag of tailgating) of automation. That’s a good idea that should be resurrected for testing somewhere.
If that kind of system ever went into place, however, it would push regular drivers off the road. That’d be a problem for many.
And you’d feel a little claustrophobic and unnerving at first. Three feet is really close – regardless of speed. And I don’t think I’d want random strangers that close to my car at all times if I couldn’t black out the windows.
If anything, our bubble of invincibility in our cars would definitely be burst at that range. You’d be a little less willing to flip people off at that range. 🙂
I’d be a truly different “driving” experience – more like a public transit system. And that would create its own form of resistance to it.
It’s worth continuing researching as an academic, R&D exercise, but it’d be a really tough sell.
Last week a 49 year-old Arizona woman was JAYWALKING and was hit and killed by an Uber self-driving car GOING 40MPH FOLLOWING THE LAW as she tried to walk her bicycle across a road OUTSIDE OF THE CROSSWALK – MAKING HER ENTIRELY AT FAULT.
Anyone who saw that video of the accident will agree that seeing that person in the dark crossing the road suddenly in the middle of nowhere was pretty much unavoidable – a person driving this car and there is no news article.
[…] Whatever happened to baby steps? @I, Cringely […]
As an aside…
It occurs to me that much use of self driving cars will be for sleeping. If you can’t afford to live in San Jose, just put your trailer in the wilds of Southern Sacramento County and use your commute time as sleep time. Just driving around in circles would be cheaper than staying in a San Jose motel and you might get as far as the ocean before you have to start back east.
Shower at 24 hours fitness and you won’t even smell bad. Tesla should be designing sleepers (Tesla Pullman model.)
When I was 14 (I’m in my mid-60’s now), I worked at a place that required travel on highways (2 lane or 4). I could bike to and from work, which freaked my mother out. So many days my father would take me to work before going on to his. During that time, he told me about development of a system that would embed cables in the highway to allow for driverless cars on highways. The early 60’s was relatively primitive with regard to technology and obviously, that scheme never came about.
Point: Fixing “the nut behind the wheel” in the transportation equation has long been a desire. The motivations have changed. That’s all.
Always remember that Americans use technology to make things more complicated, not simpler.
Re: Roger March 26, 2018 at 1:09 pm. Good points. The current approach, while more challenging, may win in the long run. Just like with human drivers, assume all other drivers and the traffic system are flawed, then work around that fact.
America vs Germany driving
https://youtu.be/AKD7sCOAiog
“Self-driving cars” are a technical problem that is best solved by central control. I’ve been saying that since the mid-1980s.
All vehicles are operated by the same software, have access to external monitoring via highway sensors and cameras,know where all other autonomous and most human-driven vehicles are even when out of their field of view, and responsibility and liability lie with the State, not with the manufacturers, subcontractors, programmers, vehicle occupants, or vehicle owners.
The French solved the problem of the self-flying airplane by making any problem de jure the pilot’s fault. It works for them, but in the scrum of American highways and courts, I see the legal issues as being way larger than the technical ones.
It’s interesting that Uber and the other autonomous vehicle companies have never publicly discussed how their AI logic values human life. I call it ‘surface mount ethics’. Will the software that’s embedded in the controller chips allow a passenger to face death or serious injury or will it sacrifice an external life (pedestrian, cyclist or other vehicle driver/passenger) to avoid this scenario? Will the reverse logic be applied instead? As for the autonomous trucks we have the added question of how the cargo will be prioritized. Will the truck/cargo be sacrificed to save the life of a person outside the truck? This is truly a brave new world we’re getting into.
Tom Hanks on German Autobahn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3h2Rw1mHew
Someone should explain to our host that there’s a huge difference between NASCAR-style drafting of aerodynamically enhanced race cars at 200 mph and passenger vehicles of various shapes and sizes at 70 mph.
That, and the ethical failure of playing Lucy Van Pelt for 2-1/2 years (and counting) with his Kickstarter backers over the Mineserver scam.
@Freeman that is the perfect analogy for how Bob is treating the Kickstarter situation/backers. Good grief!
I was shocked to hear about the tragic accident in Arizona; I didn’t even realise driverless cars were already in use on public roads in some places. I think any type of driverless car has such a lot of complex problems to deal with, that we just aren’t truly ready to deploy them yet. It’s hard for me to imagine feeling relaxed in, or near, a driverless car at the moment. But given the number of people I see driving and using mobile phones, perhaps it really is one of our best hopes for improving road safety in the future.
I’m glad this is obvious to you. It is not at all obvious to me, and I hope you will devote a future column to explaining Uber’s analysis. Under their current business model they are losing money because they subsidize every fare. It seems that they believe they can drive other taxi companies out of business and then raise their fares until they make a profit. Apparently, according to widely published stories, Uber drivers, even with the subsidy, barely make minimum wage, and often not even that. Meanwhile, the driver provides the car, pays the insurance on it, pays for the fuel and lubrication, buys the tires, and pays for the repairs and maintenance. If they go to no drivers, they are going to have to invest in a huge fleet of self driving cars, which presumably will cost $20-30,000 more than normal cars because of the needed Lidar, radar, and camera units. They will then become responsible for all the expenses currently covered by the drivers, who, did I mention?, bring their own cars. Looking forward to your story.
Procopius March 31, 2018 at 9:57 pm – Reply:
Perhaps their goal is to eliminate drivers but not owners. That way one person can own and pay all the expenses for several Uber cars. After all, Uber is just an app that matches car owners with passengers. The driver is just another expense.
@ Procopius Yes, as Ronc says, you can eliminate drivers but don’t need to actually buy a fleet of cars. As Elon Musk and many others have explained in their vision of the future, we may still own self-driving cars in the future, but when not using our cars, we may just as likely rent them out for the night or whatever, helping to earn a little bit of change all from the comfort of our home. If you can cover your entire monthly car payment from this alone, it encourages people to do so and may even justify some buying nicer cars than they would otherwise.
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The biggest issue I can see from this is the liability (or lack thereof) of people not treating your car well (throwing up inside, trashing it, etc.), but otherwise it seems like a very likely scenario. The alternative is the people who don’t no longer want to buy a car but can Uber for a fraction of the price because so many automated cars are on the road that prices have plummeted.
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In either scenario, Uber doesn’t need to own the cars any more than they do now; They are just the middle man of getting the cars to the people and scraping off some profits for themselves.
[…] article “The Real Problem With Self-Driving Cars” written by Robert X. Cringely (pseudonym of Mark Stephens), accuses the self-driving car […]
There is a company doing the drafting you’re talking about: https://peloton-tech.com/ , but for semis.
Re: Matt April 3, 2018 at 5:20 pm – Reply There is a company doing the drafting you’re talking about: https://peloton-tech.com/ , but for semis.
“semis”??
Self Driving Cars
1. Why doesn’t America just build mass-transit? It would be so much cheaper. When I visited Europe last summer, we did not have a car for two weeks with the exception of 1 day in Munich when we rented a BMW M6 and drove the Autobahn to the Neuschwanstein Castle near Hohenschwangau village. At 230 km/hr top speed. It literally irks me to no end that we have built a “Dallas North tollway” which carries probably a million cars a day with up to 5 lanes per side, and then didn’t bother to put in elevated rail (or underground) alongside it during construction.
In Europe, were literally able to walk less than a 1/2 mile to get anywhere we wanted in the cities we visited by bus and train. London, Paris, Munich, Zurich, and we even visited 8 other Swiss towns on the rail line. Some were villages with a population of maybe 10,000. If I didn’t have 4 elderly relatives to care for here in the US, I’d already be applying with my company to work there.
2. Self-driving technology is just about here. We don’t expect people to be perfect, so we can’t expect these self-driving cars to be either. If a pedestrian steps into the middle of a street with no prior warning, NOT at a crosswalk, then I would expect them to get hit whether a computer or a person was driving. Which is EXACTLY what happened in the latest Uber case. I know there are other issues, like Graffiti or Vandalized stop signs not being recognized by self-driving cars, but I think we can install beacons and other technology to electronically tell the self-driving car that the sign is there. At Southern Methodist University and University of Oklahoma, the crosswalks literally “light up” with flashing lights to advise human drivers that a person is either approaching or “in” the crosswalk. I’m sure we can add a simple transponder which would signal a self-driving vehicle.
3. Self-driving vehicles should really just get us to a mass transit hub. It should not have to take us the whole way. The idea that Bob/Mark proposes here is effectively a “train” of vehicles all interconnected by wireless. Just build the actual train, and avoid the issues everyone has outlined here with road hazards.
4. My son has lived in Houston without owning a car for 1 year now. He has used Uber, borrowed his roommate’s car, rented, and used mass transit. He does live in the city center, not in the suburbs. This lifestyle has saved him approximately $500 a month in insurance, car, maintenance, and gas costs. He visits us (his parents in Dallas) on a “luxury bus” called VonLane with 16 seats with a full desk and a LazyBoy-style reclining chair which travels from Houston to Dallas every evening (and vice versa). It is equipped with full Wifi and he has a desk where he can work (or sleep in the LazyBoy-style chair). It costs him just over $100, about 2/3 the cost of a Southwest Airlines ticket for the same trip. No security line, no waiting for 130 other people to get off the plane.
Re: Ronc April 4, 2018 at 5:35 pm – Reply
Yes, “semis,” aka big rigs, eighteen-wheelers, tractor-trailers, etc.
“show me April 5, 2018 at 12:14 pm – Reply Re: Ronc April 4, 2018 at 5:35 pm – Reply Yes, “semis,” aka big rigs, eighteen-wheelers, tractor-trailers, etc.”
I get it now, plural of sem-ee, not a misspelling of penis. Thanks.
@ FormerTXIBMer April 5, 2018 at 7:18 am: Regarding the Uber case: While the accident would have been unavoidable with human drivers at night, it could have been avoided with a properly equipped and functioning self-driving car, since they can see in the dark, where the headlights were not shining.
What if instead of Uber eliminating drivers, someone made an app that eliminated Uber? Just something to connect drivers and riders.
It’s called Lyft. Works great in San Diego.
Oh. Well, the basic problem is that self-driving cars aren’t safe until all the stuff AROUND them is well-behaved. Which it isn’t. Solving a problem without a problem description is impossible, and that’s the self-driving problem. I always bring up dirt roads and grass parking lots.
Yeah, I ain’t too keen on self driving cars either. I’m old school, I drive the car, it does what I tell it to do, not the other way around. This ain’t Knight Rider or Transformers.
That Google has been advancing autonomous cars every year for 9 years, are baby steps.We cannot lump all autonomous cars into one basket. Waymo cars have not caused an accident in millions of miles driven since January 2018, Waymo autonomous cars are ready. More societal goals or benefits of autonomous cars are lower cost of transportation means lower cost of goods in the marketplace, less traffic congestion and lower vehicle insurance costs, The most important goal is less accidents. Doing successful autonomous driving experiments does not mean we will have autonomous cars. Building an autonomous car factory means we will have autonomous cars. That is what Honda with Waymo are doing. Now the largest car manufactures like GM and Ford are scared of falling behind. They are investing billions in autonomous cars because Alphabet Google Waymo has the money and commitment to build autonomous cars.
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I haven’t read the comments but wonder if anyone mentioned the unknown impact of induced demand once all of us want our own personal driverless vehicle circling the block for us all day long.
@Scott Mace No one has mentioned that. But keep in mind that with constant communication between every vehicle and the “system”, it would be easy to eliminate gas taxes and toll charges replacing them with a much fairer “road use charge”.
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Oh. Well, the basic problem is that self-driving cars aren’t safe until all the stuff AROUND them is well-behaved.
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