Elon Musk thinks he can increase the speed of his Tesla production line in Fremont, California by 20X. I find this an astonishing concept, but Musk not only owns a car company, he also owns the company that makes the robots used in his car factory. So who am I to say he’s wrong? And if he’s right, well then the implications for everything from manufacturing to the economy to geopolitics to ICBM targeting to your retirement and mine are profound. We may be in trouble or maybe we’re not, but either way it’s going to be an interesting ride.
My friend Jerry Kew from the UK brought this article to my attention in which Elon Musk says he expects to increase the speed of his Tesla production line from the current five centimeters per second to one meter per second. Here’s Jerry’s back-of-the-envelope calculation of what this means:
If Fremont produced at one metre/sec and we assume 6 metres per car.
In one year there are 31.5 million seconds.
That is 5.25 million cars per year.
One production line
Think about it.
Now imagine a dozen such lines.
This is why he always refers to the real challenge being the machine that makes the machine.
He could supply the UK twice over with its new car needs from one production line.
I just think of vertical landing rocket stages on a barge, he meant it when he said a metre per second. The German robotics company he has bought he is driving to only supply Tesla.
Okay, so Jerry’s a bit breathless, but he knows his math. Tesla shares recently zoomed the electric car maker’s market cap past that of Ford, costing Ford CEO Mark Fields his job in the process. While some investors were incredulous that an unprofitable electric car company could be worth so much, maybe part of the reason was Wall Street coming to understand just how Tesla appears to be changing what’s possible with manufacturing.
Ford has 23 global assembly plants that built 6,651,000 cars and trucks in 2016. If Jerry’s numbers are correct, Elon Musk can imagine a single Tesla factory producing 5.25 million cars per year per assembly line (remember the Model 3 is coming from a new assembly line built in the same Fremont factory). Were Tesla able to sell that many cars, they propose duplicating Ford’s entire global production capacity from one factory.
If this becomes the way to go for global car makers then Ford has 22 assembly plants it needs to scrap. I wrote scrap rather than sell because if every one of Ford’s competitors is doing the same thing there won’t be any buyers for those old factories.
Before we get away from Tesla and toward the broader concept of robotic manufacturing, think about how this development turns on its head what it means to be a global car manufacturer. To this point the advantage has always lain with the big car companies. They had the scale. They had the deep pockets. They had the extensive dealer networks. But if it is now possible for one factory to make six million or more cars and trucks and if, like Tesla, you can sell direct, then most of those advantages become disadvantages. Ford (and every company in Ford’s position) needs to retool, throwing away factories and probably cutting its workforce by 80 percent (you don’t need an EVP of manufacturing when you have only one plant). And the dealer network, which has always been viewed as a strength, becomes just a cost center, limiting Ford’s profit margins.
Not only are the big car companies at a disadvantage, for the first time in close to a century it’s probably easier to make a fortune in auto manufacturing working with (or founding) a startup than by signing-on with one of the big companies.
If Musk is correct, Tesla will achieve profitability in the next year or two then quickly become the most profitable car company in the world while the other majors face a decade or more of restructuring.
Now let’s consider what this means for manufacturing in general and for our economic culture. I use the term economic culture quite deliberately because economists have a tendency to dissociate the dollars from the people. But we are in a period where the way we earn our livings is necessarily in flux and it’s a mistake to think of the numbers without regard to the people to whom those numbers will inevitably be applied.
Factory automation has always been about labor economics. The idea has been to replace people and their lifetime financial concerns with machines that can work 24/7 until they are thrown away. Building more cars with the same assembly line was always a matter of adding shifts whether robots or people were doing the work. But now Elon Musk has presented the idea of designing robots (and cars — this is crucial, because it won’t work without robot-optimized car designs) to operate faster than a human workers ever could. In this new form of automation, robots aren’t replacing people at all, because people frankly couldn’t do the job.
Automation has generally affected manufacturing in two ways: 1) machines replacing people to do the same work, and; 2) system integration, where what was a major electro-mechanical subassembly is reduced to a circuit board with a few chips representing millions of transistors. We’re about to see dramatic advances in both areas.
I was shocked five years ago, for example, when my friend Shoichiro Irimajiri told me that automobile wiring harnesses had reached the point where they cost as much to build as the engine and transmission for the same car. Irimajiri-san, who built Honda’s first U.S. assembly plant in Marysville, Ohio, was then a board member of Delphi, the world’s largest maker of car parts, and certainly knew what he was talking about. The future trend, he explained, had to be for wiring harnesses to become cheaper by turning into intelligent networks with single wire pairs replacing dozens of wires with hundreds of connections. He didn’t know it then, but what Irimajiri-san was describing was the Internet-of-Things (IoT), into which Sand Hill Road has been pouring billions of VC dollars.
Thanks to the IoT, every part of the next-generation car will be intelligent, either optimizing its own performance or at least reporting its health. As a result auto care will involve ever more part replacement and ever less truly skilled labor.
The implications for both these trends if viewed through the lens of increased life expectancy are profound. The World Economic Forum says my son Fallon, born in 2006, has a life expectancy of 104 years, meaning he’ll die in 2110. Think about that number — 2110!! How can Fallon plan for a career, much less an eventual retirement, based on those numbers? I guess that’s the subject of a future column.
Funny you should pick Ford for a comparison, because, fortunately for Mr. Musk, his customers are not likely to buy Fords. Here’s what will happen if Ford (or any other old-line car and truck company tries to automate:
http://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/11/16/robots-buy-cars/
It was probably Ford’s historical significance in regards to assembly lines which Robert X was painting into the picture. Ford customers aren’t the issue here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_line#Concepts
Wow! A car every 6 seconds!
When Ford introduced the moving assembly line in 1914, they could make a car every 79 seconds.
A leader in the auto industry currently makes a sedan in 54 seconds.
If Musk can do it, he’ll put a serious bend in the productivity hockey stick.
Impressive.
Which means that they will run out of parts in 1 hour unless they figure out some way to increase the speed of the just-in-time inventory by 10.
These numbers are really only possible in the abstract, since piling up parts outside the factory is going to be a huge problem and moving that many finished cars out of the way is going to be even harder. But the biggest problem will be selling 6m cars per year, year after year. Just because they can be made at some fantastic rate for a while doesn’t mean it’s sustainable over the short or long term.
Of course it’s not about some future steady state hypothetical demand. If Tesla is producing electric cars that can drive themselves and are essentially Auto 2.0, they’ll be able to sell as many as they can produce for quite a few years as they (and other Auto 2.0 vehicles) displace the entire current supply of old style vehicles. That will be something like smartphones replacing feature phones. In 10 years or so the market will settle into some new normal. That may involve much lower baseline demand if vehicles are shared more and last longer.
Part input may be an issue, but that’s solvable.
Product output isn’t really an issue once fully autonomous driving is approved as they’ll just go off the line and to a sales location or directly to the customer.
That said, Musk will probably make the line capable of going the 1m/s but only ramp up to the speed required to meet demand.
“Which means that they will run out of parts in 1 hour unless they figure out some way to increase the speed of the just-in-time inventory by 10.”
You solve that problem first, before going to the expense of retooling your production line.
No manufacturer ramps up output before knowing if the inputs can keep up.
“”Were Tesla able to sell that many cars…”
But of course it isn’t, because 80% of the workforce no longer have jobs. It isn’t even able to afford the raw materials for that many cars. Reading Asimov may be more fun than Keynes, but…
This is why a universal basic income is inevitable in the future. As AI and robots increasingly take over manufacturing and labor of all kinds, it will be the only way to keep the economy functioning. A universal basic income will steadily become more and more affordable and more and more logical.
Someone has to build the robots that build the robots – realistically, in the USA I see no chance of a universal basic income in the future given the conversations in politics these days. The future looks more like Eastern Europe in the 19th Century, We will have a President, Senators, Congressmen (no women), a small commercial middle class, and everyone else (mostly south of the Mason Dixon line) will be peasantry.
That will make the American Dream work.
Mason Dixon line? So people in Idaho and South Dakota will be part of the upper echelon? Please. Peasantry will be more like everyone outside of LA, Chicago, and the Philly-Baltimore-NYC-DC greater metro area.
” LA, Chicago, and the Philly-Baltimore-NYC-DC greater metro area” If you lived in any of those places, you’d realize most of their residents want to move out, but can’t afford to.
You obviously need to learn what the Mason-Dixon line was for – it was a war-time line for the Civil War to prevent States from existing the Union to secure a boundary. In part, to prevent remaining States from being cut-off from each other. It had no meaning outside the Civil War itself.
The rest of your post isn’t even worth commenting on.
UBI will kill work ethic and bankrupt several economies. Study the history of automation. It kills dull, dirty, dangerous tasks not complete jobs, so transforms jobs and humans ingenious as we are keep evolving. The Bureau of Labor Stats tracks over 800 occupations – that is a multiple from just a few decades ago. Expect similar growth in next few decades of types of work our parents would not have dreamed of.
Exactly. Labor turn-over is the natural condition and automation is nothing new. The Wheel was a form of automation. I programmed the robot that took my own job over 20 years ago and never looked back.
But UBI has been studied repeatedly, and it doesn’t have those negative effects. The people who work less are the people we want to work a bit less (parents, the poor give up their third job, etc), and by having less economic risk in their lives, are inclined to be more entrepreneurial. Yes, just knowing food stamps are available makes people more entrepreneurial.
If my septic tank needs cleaning or my garbage, collected, the last thing I want is an entrepreneur.
People on food stamps are MORE entrepreneurial . . . you have to be kidding!
UBI has only been studied in a limited quantity isolation. He has never been studied across a whole population.
That is, they’ve studied it by handing out money to a sample group. That sample group is small and has no real influence over the economy. Thereby the effect of UBI won’t be truly seen as it won’t affect inflation. Roll it out to the entire population under a given currency and inflation will then increase; poverty level will have a constant offset of the size of the UBI; living standards will be offset by it, etc. You don’t get that by the miniscule studies they’ve already done for UBI. And that’s just one aspect of the impact UBI will have – that’s foregoing its tax implications, and much more.
UBI is one of those things that is a Good Idea But Doesn’t Work In Practice.
Problem with universal income: Who pays for that, all the jobs being gone because of this automation?
The owners of all these automated factories will pay, since they’ll have a ton more money from not needing to pay salary or benefits to workers.
@dick pountain Except that we are also getting closer and closer to driverless cars. Musk has stated himself that his vision of the future is not with the majority of individuals owning cars, but instead fleets of driverless cars (owned by corporations or the elite), which are then constantly out picking up and dropping off other individuals on a massive scale. Therefore, in this scenario, the mass populous doesn’t need to be able to afford a car, just fare for the ride.
source to above (was flagged as spam so I could not post all as one): https://youtu.be/zIwLWfaAg-8?t=18m43s
Musk has the gift for convincing the rubes to buy into his visions. One company in one factory with one assembly line producing more than 5 million cars a year! The logistics of converging all of the material needed to that one point is daunting. Is he able to increase the speed of painting the metal surfaces and drying those surfaces faster? Where is he going to store the finished cars before shipping to customers. How big a factory does he need to accomplish this dream? Is he describing a Model T (Ford) again: one model for all in black; 5 million cars all of the same design. Hasn’t history shown the fact that a variety of vehicles of type and size are what buyers want, from smart cars to full size to trucks to vans. One factory, doubt it.
Dan Kurt
Whoa, are you actually retarded? Haha
Two things: those are all pretty solid questions, and your comment was juvenile, empty and insulting.
Good points but I suspect they have considered them. This describes a final assembly plant so many components may be made offsite. I think it involves much lower parts counts and large plug and play modules as the basis of the vehicle design. Vehicles would consist of 3 big plug and play modules: Body, Skate and Battery Pack. Each of those would be greatly simplified and designed to be built without human touches. Already a Tesla has a small fraction of the parts count of an ICE car.
Parts would flow into the plant on automated trucks and vehicles would self deploy from the factory after automated inspection and testing. Cars would literally drive out of the factory on their own and handle their own physical distribution. Some would drive onto car carriers on trains or trucks. Some onto RORO ships, some would just get on the highway and drive themselves to join a Mobility Fleet Management System in a distant city, just logging in and starting to serve Mobility App customers as soon as they arrive.
With plug and play body on Skate, the same factory can produce many different types of vehicles.
@Ludus – Your comment zeroes in on exactly the areas the “big 3” auto makers fear to tread.
1) They’re beholden to their dealer networks in a cast-iron contract of supplier/distributor. Cars that distribute themselves and require practically no hands-on maintenance crush that model.
2) Design for automated assembly (DFAM) increases productivity and reduces human error. Automakers worldwide have shied away from truly adopting DFAM, preferring instead to go the design for automation-assisted model with humans still in the loop. John Henry couldn’t compete with automation and UAW assembly workers won’t be able to either. It’s just a matter of time.
3) Unions.
4) Sales model automation. Squeeze the cost of sales (SG&A) out of the cost of the car. Look at Amazon.
Maybe he doesn’t need to store the cars. Tesla is a cult. He can just declare that you will pick up your car at time X on day Y at the factory annex site. If you are not there in a certain window, you lose the car. Customers will post about how excited they are to use this feature!
Does the “CAR” need to be ready?
If this superduperproduction line opens as described, it could make perfectly feasible another major change: instant car customizations. The “primary” factory produces (unready) basic car models, and they’re sent to a second plant, where all the extras are added: default seats (unless the customer wants some other kind of seat), default radio and speakers (unless the customer wants some other kind of audio setup), default paint job (unless the customer wants some other kind of color for his car), etcetera… so we’d have just a few models for each type of car, but every unit on the roads could very well be distinct from each other.
Adding to MikeN’s idea, the customer could very well order his car with this and that and that option and be told the unit will be ready at X place at Y date (or just show up at his place at said date).
That’s exactly how I bought my first GM car in 1968 and my second in 1977. The pick-up location was the local dealer, who later serviced it.
OOHHHHHHHH!
Taxpayer subsidies will pay for all kinds of fantasies as long as you can get them.
Taxpayers have to earn money to pay taxes – in this vision that’s unlikely to be paid in cash – most likely taxes will be paid in produce, cotton, corn, wheat, collard greens, etc.
A linear process can run only as fast as it’s slowest step. For the factory to run 20X faster, everything connected to it also has to run several times faster. Vendor sourcing, warehousing, offloading, logistics and distribution – everything needs to run at 20X,..
There wouldn’t be much point if you didn’t feed it at the right rate. I guess seats, for example would be made on slower lines but parallelised.
My observation was based simply on the goal of a metre per second is a means to an end. My guess is that the end in mind is a faster global flip to electric than currently being projected.
Nothing new here. Industrial robots have been around since the 70s. The japanese auto makers did this first and best. But now they all do. Leave it to a huckster like Musk to get geeks all lathered up over some pie in the sky predictions with no timeline. Wake me when Musk makes his first dime of profit. He loses billions a year, but is rich off of gullible stock investors.
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Almost anything CAN BE DONE with infinite cash. The secret sauce is finding customers willing to buy said product. It would be much more interesting if he said he could lower the cost of his cars by some large amount. Electric cars are far less useful than a long range vehicle. So he would have to cut the cost by at least half to spark high volume demand.
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Of course, there is no way he can do that because assembling the car doesn’t really take that much labor. He would also have to drive down the labor cost of every parts manufacturer first. This is many decades away. As a stock investor, I would bet on Toyota, not Tesla. They are way WAY ahead on automation, and they actually know how to turn a profit.
BINGO!
I have a Ford and I love it. It’s a good car. Hope to have a Tesla before leaving this life.
Same here. Model 3 with 300+ mile range in cold weather would have me in a heartbeat. 200+ has me thinking of Ford Hybrid until that day. Who knows?
“The wiring harness on Model S is about 3km, on the Model 3 it’s about 1.5km in length. The wiring harness on the Model Y will be 100m.”
— https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/05/tesla-q1-2017-financials-are-in-and-its-all-about-waiting-for-the-model-3/
But according to your last posting, Fallon is the chief designer of the new generation Mineserver. He is set to be wealthy and set for life after you eventually sell (palm off) the Mineserver Corporation to Microsoft. You said that you don’t allow your kids to read your blog, but don’t you read it either?
Fallon will be fine. Here he’s just an example. But even if we assume Fallon won’t have to worry about his financial future, what will he do with his time? How will he remain engaged with the world?
@Robert X. Cringely – I would be more concerned about the dubious ethics that he has been taught by your leadership of the Mineserver project.
“But even if we assume Fallon won’t have to worry about his financial future, what will he do with his time? How will he remain engaged with the world?”
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I imagine he’ll spend his days as he has been taught… repeating the cycle of starting something, getting bored with it (or encountering obstacles), and abandoning it for the next shiny notion.
I’m calling all you complainers out for having hidden agendas. Especially Roger Sinasohn who, in all likelihood, never put in any cash at all. Certainly not enough to warrant the time and effort he puts in to filling this space with his venom. Ask yourself, is he an IBMer who can’t stand Robert’s (forcefully put) views on that company? Who knows what his beef is but I’m not buying that this amount of vitriol from all of you is tied to such a minor investment for an individual. Fake news, I call it. Now that you all have a response, albeit words rather than product – yet, it’s time for you to shut up and wait for it to arrive in the mail.
“…Especially Roger Sinasohn who, in all likelihood, never put in any cash at all.”
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Take a look here: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/sinasohn
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Scroll down a bit, right between “Understanding Jim Crow: Racist Memorabilia & Social Justice” and “Music To Die Alone In Space To”
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Sorry to burst your bubble.
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“Ask yourself, is he an IBMer who can’t stand Robert’s (forcefully put) views on that company?”
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Nope, never was an IBM guy and never cared for the company. I was an HP guy back in the day.
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I’m just a guy who can type fast.
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How many cars can be moved out of that one factory? A factory can make a million cars per second, but is the infrastructure there to deliver a million cars per second from that one spot? Also, can enough raw materials be provided to that one factory to build a million cars per second.
There are other limitations to the number of cars that can be built in a single factory other than the speed the robots can operate. This doesn’t mean a robot factory can’t be more efficient or build faster or more accurately, but it does mean that unless the bottleneck of raw material delivery and the ability to deliver all of these cars can be handled, the factory cannot necessarily deliver cars that fast.
He believes he is 2 years away from releasing driverless cars, so the cars can simply drive themselves away to the end user.
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He is also making driverless electric semi trucks. His vision does not allow for bottlenecks, we’ll see if reality does…
Correct me if I’m wrong but it sounds like they are talking about line speed not robot speed. I believe the interviewer is confused. Robots can move that fast now.
Perhaps you could get some of those robots to write your columns for you, thus freeing up time to write some updates on the Mineserver project?
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And isn’t the Mineserver project going to be your kids’ ticket to a life of luxury?
I thought you only wanted more info and an understanding of what was going on? I guess not. How surprising. Well by all means draw more attention to yourself, bask in your immature petulance and take comfort in the fact that I only comment on trolls about once a month. See you in July.
What part of “… thus freeing up time to write some updates on the Mineserver project?” is not asking for more info?
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Yes, one could argue that “… isn’t the Mineserver project going to be your kids’ ticket to a life of luxury?” is asking for more info (about his kids’ future life of luxury), but really, aren’t I allowed a little snarkiness now and then?
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It’s been nearly **SEVEN MONTHS** since Crookely has posted anything on *his* kickstarter project. Posting info here is all well and good, but it’s not what he agreed to do when he started his project and it’s not what we, his backers, chipped in for.
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eBay has a rule about not making a sale outside the eBay system — that is, you can’t put something up for sale on eBay and then bypass eBay’s sale process. Whether that’s to protect buyers or to protect eBay’s bottom line doesn’t matter — when you put something up for auction at eBay, you’re required to use their system to complete the transaction. Kickstarter is the same — You can post whereever you like, but that doesn’t absolve you of the requirement that you keep your backers updated **on the Kickstarter site**.
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And you do realize, don’t you, that the reason backers came here is that because he’s not posting there?
@Roger Sinasohn June 6, 2017 at 11:49 am –
What a pathetic, bitter human being!
Get a life, move on, for heaven’s sake!
Roger’s right. We all have an interest in Bob’s credibility, Mineserver or not. I have no investment in Mineserver, but 20 years of part-time investment in Cringely’s column.
“What a pathetic, bitter human being!”
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I don’t really think I’m bitter, but I’ll defer to your expertise on the matter. The same for pathetic, something you clearly know more about than I do.
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“Get a life, move on, for heaven’s sake!”
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Gee, if only I had some updates on Kickstarter to read or — dare I hope? — some wee little minecraft server to play with!
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Also, no.
There is still a hidden agenda here Roger.
To be watching this space to post so regularly, to reply so often when people bait you, has to be driven by something more than the equivalent cost of taking your kids to a movie.
What if the movie hadn’t worked out? Your kids didn’t like it and you couldn’t understand it – would you spend this amount of effort filling their blog page with your dissatisfaction?
Your constant wailing is not rational.
So we have a binary decision point here. Either you are not acting rationally, in which case, why should we listen to you? – or you have a hidden agenda, a real beef against Bob that you are keeping to yourself, in which case, why should we listen to you?
So FUCK OFF!
“There is still a hidden agenda here Roger.”
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“To be watching this space to post so regularly, to reply so often when people bait you, has to be driven by something more than the equivalent cost of taking your kids to a movie.”
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Not necessarily. I check in every day or two — it’s easy enough to scroll through the comments quickly.
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“What if the movie hadn’t worked out? Your kids didn’t like it and you couldn’t understand it – would you spend this amount of effort filling their blog page with your dissatisfaction?”
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Your analogy is flawed. It’s more like I took my kids to the movies, having paid for the tickets and popcorn and snacks, then got there and they didn’t show the movie nor was there any popcorn to be had.
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A bad movie is still the movie I paid to see. Not showing me the movie at all is another story. And if I then went to the ticket booth to complain about the lack of movie, they simply went about their business and ignored me, then, yes, I would post some negative reviews.
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“Your constant wailing is not rational.”
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By what standard?
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“So we have a binary decision point here. Either you are not acting rationally, in which case, why should we listen to you? – or you have a hidden agenda, a real beef against Bob that you are keeping to yourself, in which case, why should we listen to you?”
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That’s called a false dichotomy. There are a lot more choices than a) irrational and b) hidden agenda. The simplest is c) I have a valid complaint and am taking the easiest path towards getting some satisfaction.
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Sure, I could d) drive up to his house and pound on his door (it’s not that far from me) but that’s a lot more effort than I’m willing to put into this and, potentially, could result in legal issues. I could e) sue him in small claims court, but, again, that’s a lot of work and would involve throwing good money after bad — I have little hope that I would get any satisfaction that way.
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I’m certain there are other options, but I’ll leave that as an exercise for the student.
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“So FUCK OFF!”
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Um, no. Also, now who’s being irrational?
Seriously Roger, just fuck off. You really are the biggest arsehole on the internet.
What exactly is your point? There was an update last week
Regarding last week’s update, the issue of credibility still exists. Kickstarter itself was not updated. There may be consequences to deliberately providing false information on Kickstarter, but you can say what you want on your own blog.
Pass on the Kool-Aid Mr. Musk. I love Musk because he is a big thinker and not afraid to challenge the status quo. But I also see him as a pure entrepreneur who is still figuring out how to make a buck actually building things at scale.
Even if he can build parts of a car at high speeds, he will never get the entire process to keep up with the parts of the process that have been optimized. A process is only as fast as it’s slowest step.
I’d like to see him build reliable Tesla cars first (read the reviews – they are so-so). Driverless cars? Maybe in 10 years – but good luck insuring them.
Glad Bob wrote about this as it is interesting and hopefully Musk will be right someday.
Getting insurance for driverless cars will be easy. It won’t depend on your age, gender, education, and past driving record.
Once driverless cars become the norm, getting insurance on a human driven car may be hard.
Having been in the IT technology industry all my life AND a gearhead/former custom car builder/auto enthusiast who has always followed the automotive industry very closely, I believe that although Cringely’s prediction may be generally correct about how manufacturing in general will be trending over the next decade(s), I don’t think his prediction is at all applicable to the automotive industry
Although it’s true that it has become very high-tech and robotized, auto manufacturing is NOT just like any other high-tech item manufacturing. There is still the extremely diverse mechanical / distribution / sales / maintenance and other economic/social/political “impactors” on this very unique industry that affect it in a way that no other industry, whether Intel manufacturing chips, Dell manufacturing computers, a factory making toasters or milling machines, or SpaceX (or whatever) is impacted. IMO you can not extrapolate from other industries to the auto manufacturing industry.
And without going into a long-winded boring diatribe, I’ll just say that Elon Musk being able to further update his plant in Fremont to increase his output 10 or 20 times does not directly equate to the success of Tesla, or its profitability for that matter. Contrary to Cringely’s prediction, it’s gonna be a long time before Tesla becomes profitable, and a long time before electric cars become as ubiquitous as Cringely seems to think. Elon Musk is selling Kool-Aid, and not only is the concept of an entire nation’s (or world’s) auto output coming from one factory not possible, it’s also not needed. I mean, even if you could do it, why do it? I don’t see the advantage to the world, nor any more Tesla’s flying out of the showroom to new owners because of it.
Once vehicles can drive themselves, will there even be a market for 5 million cars per year? Mass transit will get much better and cheaper due to elimination of labor cost, right-sizing of transit vehicles, and vastly improved coverage. A car is a pretty expensive investment to be sitting idle 95% of the time. If other options are just as or more convenient, will individual ownership plummet?
Bob Cumberford, expert on all things automotive for more than 50 years, is a regular reader of this column. Maybe he will chime-in. I’ve never been a big fan of Elon Musk, who I saw as basically stumbling into success at PayPal. But he’s a BIG PICTURE guy who is delivering with both SpaceX and Tesla, which is extraordinary in itself. How many other guys can claim to have revolutionized two major industries at the same time? Maybe it is Flav-r-Ade, but also maybe not. He’s successfully building both solar panels and batteries in unprecedented volumes and that has to help with scaling-up car production. I don’t think we should dismiss the guy. He’s surprised us before.
@Robert X. Cringely – I would be careful about accusing someone else of stumbling into success. Elon has his faults but he knows how to ship products. You on the other hand: fake PhD, foil disk drive, moonshot, mineserver, …..
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I can’t think of anyone that would rate you higher than Elon in any metric.
Give it a rest. No matter how many times Cringely has fumbled the ball, the biggest failure and annoyance here is YOU. The rest of us have to navigate around the garbage you create in the forum. Instead of annoying Cringely, you’re annoying everybody else. You’re the one creating pure garbage, even if Cringely is guilty of creating nothing. I know which is worse in my view.
Of course, I know how internet trolls work. You’re so cock sure of your own righteousness that your poor little brain can’t see how annoying you are. I also know the next step is to attack me, which is exactly what we all would expect from a petulant child.
@Eric You claim to know how internet trolls work, and yet you continue to feed them. Ignore them, they feed on our disdain. Please do your part and leave them be, else you are no better and perpetuate the problem.
There’s one thing for sure – he’s not nearly as annoying as he would LIKE to be. Praise Jesus he can’t be.
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Back on topic, I agree that amazing developments are coming. I disagree it’s going to turn us all into peasants.
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If the universal income idea takes hold, it will be necessary to have minimum participation requirements. You’ll have to be in school, or in community service, or a thousand other easy choices.
@Country Mouse – please leave me out of this
SolarCity is a financial drag on Tesla, and the acquisition was to help the co-owners of SolarCity, at the expense of Tesla. It is not helping production to take money away from the cars to prop up the failing company. It makes sense because with SolarCity, you leave for vacation, and your electricity bill is still very high, as they charge you for production not usage.
…. It makes sense because with SolarCity, you leave for vacation, and your electricity bill is still very high, as they charge you for production not usage.
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It’s late, which may be why l’m having trouble parsing the last sentence, but would someone like to try explaining it.
When you go on vacation, your energy use goes down, and your bill drops to near zero, right?
With SolarCity, the solar panels are still producing electricity, and you get billed for all that production at the SolarCity rate, with only some rebate for what can be sold back to the grid.
@MikeN This is interesting. Do you have a source for these findings? I’d be interested to read more.
Marc Perkel runs John Dvorak’s blog. He has posted over the years about his experience with SolarCity. The two things that struck me were his having to pay even when he doesn’t use, and that the rate is much higher( I think 15c a kwh) than most of the country pays. I have tried to find out how much SolarCity charges in other states with cheaper power rates, but have failed.
The other thing is SolarCity collects all the tax credits and subsidies that normally go to the homeowner.
@MikeN – paying for energy produced is only one of the possible financing options that SolarCity (or their various competitors) offers. A pay for energy option has the lowest upfront cost but can have longer term cost issues. If you lease the panels, SolarCity keeps the tax benefits. If you purchase (or finance) through them, you get the tax benefits.
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https://www.solarcity.com/residential/how-much-do-solar-panels-cost
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How much you get paid for excess generation is highly dependent on the regulatory and utility policies in your location. Some areas have also been enforcing minimum billing levels and connection charges.
Mineserver is correct. Just read this article:
https://www.fastcompany.com/40422076/the-real-story-behind-elon-musks-2-6-billion-acquisition-of-solarcity-and-what-it-means-for-teslas-future-not-to-mention-the-planets
that says SolarCity had done an existential change to selling the panels instead of leasing them.
As far as Tesla goes, I just don’t see it…..this is the auto sales industry, not smartphones/consumer electronics. Tesla sells, what…..less than 1% of the cars sold in the U.S. each year? All of a sudden people are going to abandon the excellent products available to them….from Ford Mustangs to Corvettes to Toyotas to exotic European supercars….in favor of Tesla?
……..
Not even the Ford pickup….best selling vehicle for many years…moves those kinds of numbers that Tesla claims they can produce. Even here in Calif we where probably see more of them than any other state, Tesla’s are really still somewhat of a “fringe” product. For that equation to change, it has to come from the consumer side….not the manufacturer side. Pull, not push.
……
And that doesn’t even take into account that our electrical infrastructure that’d be needed to replace such a large percentage of petroleum driven vehicles is nowhere near enough yet. IMO this is all “pie in the sky” stuff….it’s many many many years out before wholesale vehicle fleet replacement occurs by electrical vehicles (especially Tesla)…if it EVER does (I’m more bullish on hydrogen, myself).
…….
This is the real (not virtual) world….traffic, crumbling streets, backed-up freeways, increasing fuel prices (including fuel that produces electricity), less people working, people traveling less, millenials waiting longer and longer to start driving, etc.
Jerry knows his math? A Model 3 is 4.69 meters. He is off by nearly a third.
Granted it would make Musk’s factories even more productive, but still.
This is more of Musk’s cult behavior. Trying to wow the rubes, like others used magic.
What is happening is that Musk is making a big gamble. He has more than ten billion dollars in pre-orders if he can deliver. He is skipping the traditional car company’s first step of doing a demo production line to make sure everything is working right. This is time consuming and expensive, because later you have to get new production equipment that corrects any errors. Musk is skipping this step, saying it is a waste. If something goes wrong in production, it could bankrupt the company. Musk is essentially using his prior car models as the testing, and concluding that he can skip this step.
A 20x speed in a single production line, is ridiculous. It is more likely that he is claiming to produce a 20x increase in throughput, or perhaps a single step of the production line.
Not sure what he means, but the article has Elon saying
“in terms of the extra velocity of vehicles on the line, it’s probably about, including both X an S, it’s maybe five centimeters per second. ”
That’s not the same as just saying 5cm per second becomes one meter.
This plant when Toyota was running it was producing five times as many cars as Tesla is now doing.
The reality is Tesla will be behind on production again. They are supposed to start getting parts deliveries next month, and at least 100,000 cars produced by the end of the year. That would require at least double the current rate of 2000 cars per week, if they started in July. More likely they will start in September or October, requiring 4000 cars per week, which they won’t have. Their 2018 production schedule requires 10,000 cars per week at least, even more if they are backed up. I suspect they will come in under that number. It really won’t matter to the customers who will be happy to receive a few years late, and have already put up $1,000. However, the image will suffer. So at some point Elon will get production up to something below the level that Toyota produced many years ago in the same plant. He will call it an improvement and proof that he is right about achieving a 20x production gain, keeping the cult going longer, along with the stock price. He will hope that his brand image will keep the SEC at bay, just as California has never prosecuted him for the hundreds of millions in tax credits he took for his fraudulent fast battery swap stations(If you have a Tesla, try and use this and get back to us). Perhaps his end game is to announce he is going on a one way trip to Mars, while secretly living elsewhere.
You old people posting here have absolutely no idea of what you’re talking about.
With what are you disagreeing?
I was wondering that too. It is a typical cult answer, sign of cognitive dissonance.
We call it maths here 😉
I don’t assume they come out with no gaps. 6m was to be conservative.
Jerry
Hey Jerry, not sure what ‘no gaps’ means, but the 5 cm is not the production of the car, but the movement along the assembly line. Unless the car is built in place, it will be much more than 6m, and closer to the length of the factory(probably more if it snakes.)
A gap is the spacing between cars. 6m could mean a 3m car length plus a 3m gap between cars.
I see. So let’s say we have a 4.5 m car with 1.5m gaps, on a 600m assembly line. 450 cars on the assembly line, which will take 600 seconds to process at 1m/s. His calculations are close enough I guess. 2700 cars per hour.
Oops, 100 cars on the assembly line.
Watch Tony Seba’s video about the future of transport. It answers many questions posed in the comments.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM
– The production speed Musk claims may be possible because, according to Seba, an electric motor has 20 moving parts versus 2000 moving parts for an internal combustion engine.
-Automation (of all kinds) will result in job loss, but the following 2 points will make it cheaper to live:
– Auto self-driving will enable transportation to become a service, negating the need to own a car which sits unused most of the day. Car service will cost one-tenth of car ownership.
– Not owning a car frees up approximately 400 square feet of garage space, resulting smaller and cheaper homes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxryv2XrnqM
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That should also open up a nice – though short-term – cottage industry converting all that existing garage space into living space. I’ve been thinking about what I might do with mine.
@Freeman Pro Tip: They are great for storing boxes of stuff you rarely will go through. My family has been doing this for years and we’ve never looked back. … /sigh
Heh, yeah that’s what mine looks like too. Got three cars in the driveway and barely enough room for the Harley just inside the garage door.
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But I can dream, can’t I?
> electric motor … 20 moving parts
Assuming you count the brushes as moving parts, the average electric motor has about three moving parts. You might approach 20 with an expensive motor that has ball bearings and a mechanical governor.
> 2000 … internal combustion engine
Well, if it had lots of valves, VVT bits, several timing chains, and a bunch of roller bearing idlers, rockers, and/or cam followers, you might get a fewhundred moving parts. Most engines would have well under a hundred moving parts.
Congrats on being referenced in an Elon Musk tweet. That’s how I came by this blog tracking down what his tweet referred to.
Wow – guess I could order a self-driving Tesla online and it will roll off the factory floor, keep going, and find it’s way to my door… OR maybe roll down to the port and onto one of those huge slab-sided ships for export orders.
Oh yes – and pack some solar roof-tiles in the back…
Robert, this is fascinating. a starting advantage Tesla has is the Bill of Material (BOM) for an EV is 15 to 20% simpler than that for gas or diesel vehicles. And of course it has no capex to write off in old line assembly lines.
But as I found in researching a century of automation for my recent book, Silicon Collar, societies absorb automation very gradually. The UPC scanner was patented in 1952 to save on grocery checkout jobs and 7 decades later look how many of those jobs still abound. ATMs started to appear in the 1970s and just in the US we still have 90,000 bank branches which still employ 500,000 + tellers and other staff. Decades after MS office, digital voice mail, personal copiers etc we still have 4 million admin assistants in the US.
Will the world adapt to EVs at scale? Last year, 75 years after automatic transmission was patented, nearly half the cars sold around world were stick shift! And will utilities around the world expand capacity massively to power EVs? And will they run afoul of their Paris accord commitments since most utilities are still coal and gas fired?
Should be a fascinating next few decades
Back tellars are on their way out. Have you been by you local Bank America lately?
Tellers have survived for 50+ years of ATM availability. The BLS does not expect them to disappear for couple more decades. We forget for many the convenience of a human dealing with machines rather than them having to.
Yesterday, I received my new ATM card in the mail. Tried to activate online, site said that there were no cards awaiting activation. Tried to activate over the phone, but the phone activation wouldn’t take the expiration date, so I was transferred to a live attendant who said their system was having problems, so she will enter the date after I entered everything else. Heard six touch-tones instead of four, explaining her high-tech fix.
There are still some bank tellers and checkout operators, however I’m old enough to remember how many more checkout operators there were when they used to type in the prices. And self check-out has reduced the number even more. And here in Australia there are still bank employees and bank branches but you see one or two tellers where there once were eight or ten. And far, far fewer bank branches than there used to be.
What’s the point of all those cars if no one can buy them because their jobs have been taken by robots.
And what about the blacksmiths and horse-drawn wagon makers?
Tesla is very far behind in terms of hours per vehicle build on the line. Toyota the industry leader is at around 24-28hrs per vehicle, Tesla on the other hand is at 80hr-90hr per vehicle. While I hope Elon can improve the process with automation, he is currently fighting a rear guard action.
Good point.
Not really a big futuristic geek here – but If self driving cars become the norm soon, why would Musk need to store any of them them. He wont even need to ship them. Just enter the address of the customer and the car is on its way right? Just being a bit cheeky.
With respect to what we would be doing in the future with all that free time, Yuval Noah Harari thinks its going to be some combination of Drugs and Video Games. Brave new world ahead.
[…] The Robots are Coming! […]
Very good article. Thank you.
Several points. The energy saving from not having 22 other factories dwarfs the carbon savings of the car I suspect.
Having robots do jobs that do not involve agency, creativity, doing something different every day, frees up people to do jobs that do involve creativity. Maker faires generally only include pre-18th century arts, each of which were invented over the course of human history. We can do better on our artisan work; we just haven’t bothered to think about it. Then there’s the virtual artisan work which isn’t even a thing yet. We’re a primitive culture of beings with a working memory that is literally 8 bit who have transcended this limitation but have not realized it.
Technocrats are about to learn yet another humbling lesson in chaos and complexity. Don’t they ever learn?
Well, we shall see. Automobile assembly lines are just one tiny part of the economy.
We have had the ability to make automated shirt-sewing machines for decades now. But almost all of our clothing is sewn by hand by disposable 50-cents-an-hour labor.
Even Tesla will, I expect, have all of its upholstery sewn by hand. Last I checked even the iPhone was assembled by hand by workers jammed into sheds like battery hens.
A handful of centralized high-tech industries may automate. The entire economy? Another story entirely. The Roomba robotic vacuum cleaner has been under development for over a decade, yet the impact on the demand for janitors and maids has been zero. It’s ultimately not going to be about the performance of a robot, but its total life-cycle amortized cost. Disposable 50-cents-an-hour labor is hard to compete against.
http://globuspallidusxi.blogspot.com/2017/05/robots-are-going-to-radically-reduce.html
With fewer manufacturing sites, that means less redundancy. I would think that a major earthquake on the Hayward Fault has the potential to put the Tesla factory offline for a long time, https://www.earthmagazine.org/article/most-dangerous-fault-america
The same idea would apply to other manufacturing sites. If everyone is depending on a particular site, and something bad happens to put the site out of commission, then everyone is left high and dry. Unless, of course, the calamity is sea level rise, in which case not everyone will be high and dry.
An earthquake is exactly what Musk needs to get out of his technical difficulties.
Elon Musk comments talking about employment and more than one factory
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/871805266160893952
This comment section suddenly turned into a back issue of Wired.
The way climate change is going, Tesla should change production from electric self-driving cars to electric self-piloting boats…. glug glug glug
The robots are creating for us an [AI Prosperity Engine].
Musk/Tesla has always been about hype. He offers a base model Tesla starting at $68K which will eventually need a new $12K 60kW battery pack down the road, or opt to get the 100kW upgrade for $20K. The 100kW battery is advertised as going 300 miles per charge. This mileage will shrink with every charge since batteries degrade over time with charging. This is not going to solve the average persons need for affordable vehicle transportation, and this is the bulk of car buyers. If you have an endless supply of money, and aren’t worried about saving for retirement, then go ahead and indulge yourself. Musk also promotes his solar roof shingles. A novel idea, with a lot of issues like the cost of installation, the cost of maintenance, and the fact that you need to make all that money back in electric savings over the long term, which will probably not happen before you need a new roof again. The ridiculous valuation of the company just shows how non technical people are influenced by various national political narratives with regard to “clean energy” silver bullets.
The solar roof shingles are being compared in price to the high end shingles, not the regular ones. Most people will just go with regular shingles and solar panels I think.
Even the Model 3 will have at least 50K-60K in price, with 35k listed as ‘base’. The base buyers will not get the tax credit either, since deliveries will happen in order of price, and the subsidy runs out by the time he gets to the little people.
The only way his solar roofing will be successful is with government subsidies, and even that is a long shot, but his car business is still here thanks to those same government subsidies. You can feel proud that your very own tax dollars are going to support a rich guy with a pie in the sky dream that is not based in reality.
Your tax dollars are currently subsidising quite a few rich guys already!
Today Musk said the Fremont factory is “bursting at the seams,” and that he expects to have ten factories worldwide.
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/06/in-shareholder-meeting-tesla-ceo-elon-musk-talks-model-y-new-factories/
Tesla will be boosting production by eliminating the need for so much space. Parts will be shipped directly to your house or other location, and then they will assemble together out of the box.
So IKEA for cars then. Flat pack cars!
Oh no, it’s better than IKEA. You won’t have to build it yourself, the parts will assemble by themselves!
In fact IKEA will be quaking in their boots once Musk switches to furniture.
So we’re going to have a situation where :-
1. People lose their jobs to robots
2. So they earn less
3. So they buy fewer things
4. Which leads to more job cuts
5. GoTo 2
I wonder where it will end. Some have said that people will move into more creative work but not everyone can do that, and robots are starting to do that too.
So we’re going to have a situation where :-
1. People lose their jobs to h1b
2. So they earn less
3. So they buy fewer things
4. Which leads to more job cuts
5. GoTo 2
I wonder where it will end. Some have said that people will move into more creative work, or become homeless
People are usually cheaper than robots and disposable
This is less of a tech issue and more of a social one in America which had slavery and likes the apartheid guest labour
It seems to be assumed on this and other sites that the shared autonomous car is a slam dunk (leaving aside who actually builds it). But I don’t want one and neither do others I speak to, autonomous, just possibly, but not shared. It is always spoken of as – “of course I don’t want one, but most people will”. Who are these “most people”?
A car is part of my space, my mess if you like. I keep a pair of gloves, wet wipes, kitchen roll and some candy in the front pocket, a childs seat in the back, my muddy boots, a screen scraper and some dog walking gear behind the front seat, a coat, a rather tired umbrella and – well you get the idea.
I was a happy zipcar user for a while, but once I could get a car, which lives in the garage attached to my house, I experienced convenience and comfort that simply has no comparison. Only being compelled by law would make me go back to sharing.
[…] https://www.cringely.com/2017/06/05/the-robots-are-coming/ […]
Mr Musk may be 10 steps ahead of the rest of us but he is not the only one leading the way in this path.
Just introduced is 3D metal printing system that can produce parts at the price of conventional processes.
https://www.desktopmetal.com/products/production/
———————————–
Siemens has software that helps you “create efficient manufacturing lines… robot simulation software that allows you to create virtual mockups of manufacturing cells.”
https://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/tecnomatix/manufacturing-simulation/robotics/robotexpert.shtml
———————————–
Nvidia’s Isaac enables you to train robots virtually.
https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/deep-learning-ai/industries/robotics/
———————————–
https://www.recode.net/2016/9/27/13065822/adidas-shoe-robots-manufacturing-factory-jobs
I have a number of ideas for making things that would be a radical change from what is done now.
It is not inconceivable that manufacturing is going to change rather quickly in the near future.
Most car plants do about 1200/day. Times 250 working days per year is 300K per year. So 20x is about what you have there.
But You CANNOT run an assembly line at 1 M per second.
1 You can’t apply paint that fast with any existing paint applicator – you’ll have to split off to numerous parallel paint lines. Good luck getting all those paint booths approved in California!!! Ha ha
2 you can’t assemble bodies that fast. Spot weld or SPR. The robot has to get that giant gun into the body envelope and TOUCH the body. I don’t see it at 1 meter/sec.
Tesla is probably using the same Detroit automation in paint and body that all the rest use. They may crunch data better, take care of equipment better. But robots and equipment same stuff.
I would imagine trim operations are still fairly manual. If people involved, not moving 1 meter/sec.
I think people are misunderstanding the goal Elon is setting. See my comment above with the exact quote. I’m nor sure what it means, but it is not 1m/s for the whole assembly line I think.
JIT (Just In Time) manufacturing is complicated on even the simplest scale. To manufacture at one meter per second will be a herculean feat requiring precision planning and flawless execution. Tesla’s Fremont facility, while large, cannot support such an endeavor. Imagine the traffic that supply delivery will create and then multiply that by 50.
While the reality of supply logistics is daunting (even scary) Mr. Musk has the chops to make it work, but most definitely at a different location.
The plant does not have to be operating at all times. It just has to move 1m/s when it is running. Other slower aspects can happen during downtime, like paint drying.
No one can produce at 1 m/s. Of course no one could land a booster stage on a barge or even go to the moon (er, pretend to go to the moon).
You must be a computer dev. Think before you post nonsense.
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Why make the huge investment if the plant will really run slower? Every stop and start has a lot of overhead. You match production with demand or go broke.
Çocukluktan itibaren süre gelen hayallerinizden biri olan evlilik hiç şüphe yok ki en özel günlerimiz arasında yer almaktadır. Bağdat Kaftan olarak hayallerinizi gösterişli , ışıl ışıl kaftan modelleri ile renklendiriyoruz. Hint işlemeleri, osmanlı ziğürleri ve daha bir çok gösterişli geleneklerden ileri gelen çeşitleri ile günün sultanı siz olacaksınız.
Türkiyenin bir numaralı ve en kaliteli kurumu olmaktan gurur duymaktayız.
http://bagdatkaftan.com/
Musk’s optimistic forecast is believable. Every assembly line to date has a place where a human must be inserted. Or at least have human access.
Aerospace companies have already figured this out. Replace the human pilot. Not only does this give the aircraft more payload for avionics/armaments, it also allows the aircraft to achieve radical maneuvers. So radical that a human pilot’s guts would be rearranged.
So, yeah, it’s not just doable. It’s practically inevitable.
Magical thinking has all but permeated the IT industry. This is all based on the integrated circuit scaling trend these past few decades, and the hope that the law of diminishing returns will not apply to it.
But limits to IC scaling are already within sight and the when current trends are plotted 10 or 20 years into the future the only answers to keep them up are ‘quantum gooey’, ‘carbon nanotubes’ or similar pipe dreams.
The 2nd spanner is the works is that comparable human dexterity is still decades away in robots.
This is not to say that automation will not disrupt many industries in the years to come. Transport is probably the one that will be transformed the most. But those expecting human obsolescence in the near future are going to be very dissapointed.
So I said this when GM and Chrysler were in Bankruptcy and I’ll say it again – the car manufacturers should sell off their plants to the UAW (or anyone else that wants to run them). GM and Chrysler should have done that as part of their bankruptcy proceedings (to the UAW) and then given them a 5-10 year sole sourcing agreement, after which they can then multi-source much like Intel, AMD, IBM, and everyone else does with making processors now – they make a design and then contract with a fabrication plan (f.e TMSC) to actually produce the chips. Car manufacturers need to do that and reduce their overhead – cost of the plants, cost of employees, etc. GM, Chrylser, and Ford could all essentially shrink down to just their engineering, testing, and sales teams if they did. The UAW would then be forced to actually compete on cost. Musk’s vision of autonomous assembly lines will force that to happen as the auto manufacturer’s wont be able to compete otherwise.
And if you think the UAW would allow Ford, GM, and Chrysler to lower their workforce, close plants, etc to compete with Musk, then I’ve got a bridge to sell you as they’ll fight it every step of the way and put the car manufacturers back into bankruptcy court in the process. They’ll take them down just like the Baker’s union did with Hostess.
I’ve been following Musk for a while now and based on reports he’s currently pushing out ~125,000 cars a year and has recently added a third shift. He stated that the Freemont plant has a capacity of about 500,000 cars a year.
Although I know Tesla is working to push efficiencies up, Tesla could never push five million cars through that plant. Why? 1) Tesla does raw material to finish car at the plant – they could never logistically move enough raw materials into place to build all the parts needed for that quantity 2) The Freemont plant is surrounded by pretty dense suburban landscape. There’s no place to stage the finished cars until they are shipped. 3) Tesla doesn’t have the demand for 5 million cars – but this can change over the next five years.
I think you have great points. Technology companies like Tesla are using technology to build the next generation of manufacturing machines to build the next generation of products that are based on technology. With technology driving innovation, we will see Moore’s law type of growth in manufacturing capacity and capabilities.
It is a big bet Musk and company are playing, but if it pays off Tesla will make Apple look small in 10-15 years.
Still no Mineserver updated since November on the Kickstarter project site. …..
[…] becomes a bit more clear when one takes a closer look at Elon Musk’s vision for Tesla. Cringely lays it out. Elon Musk is working on a robotic system that will drastically speed up the production of Teslas […]
Elon musk is one of the strong supporters of h1b
Why does he need the h1b Hindu guest workers if he can do so well with robots ?
The guest workers are the thread to jobs and the economy not the robots
The guest worker policies are the thread to the standard of living not the robots
tbis is what corporations support
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/05/why-elon-musk-broke-mark-zuckerbergs-pac/315318/
Kaftan modelleri Günümüzde kına gecelerinin dışında gece hayatı için kullanılan kaftan ceketler de oldukça iddialı parçalar olarak gözümüze çarpmakta. Özellikle şık takımları tamamlayan bu parça bütün moda takipçilerinin göz bebeğidir. Kaftan ceketlerin günlük hayatta kullanılır hale gelmesi gerek vücut hatlarına olan uyumuyla gerekse rahatlığıyla onları tercih edilir hale getiriyor.
http://bagdatkaftan.com/kaftan-modelleri/
https://www.fwd.us/supporters
Trump meeting with IT CEO’s to discuss H1B apartheid Hindu guest worker programme, on the 26 th meets with Hindu prime minister, no American labour representatives or eeo representatives or civil rights representatives
Had already substantially restricted H1B visas, assuring ‘extreme vetting’ of applicant qualifications. You have to demonstrate skill specific to the job now, and can’t just say you have a degree in computers(or typing).
He also undid Obama’s illegal expansion of the visa in giving EAD to spouses.
Public information service, protests in DC on the 26th about h1b
https://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/06/20/americans-laid-off-h-1b-outsourcing-rally-white-house/
Public information service, protests in DC on the 26th about h1b
https://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/06/20/americans-laid-off-h-1b-outsourcing-rally-white-house/
Come down to DC
https://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/06/20/foreign-guest-workers-increasing-trump-say-fed-data/
https://qz.com/1010965/a-former-executive-is-accusing-infosys-of-racism-that-favours-indians/
Canlı model çizimlerimiz son hızda devam etmektedir. Hepinizi Rüya avcısı resim kursuna bekleriz! Güzel Sanatlara Hazırlık alanında bir numaralı adresiniz olmaya devam etmekteyiz.
Sevdikleriniz ile geleceğe umut ile bakmak sizlerin elinde.
Binlerce mutlu sona sizinle bir mutlu son daha eklemek istiyoruz.
http://ruyaavcisi.com/
I was talking to a robot just the other day. This robot was complaining about all the work it had to do with no thanks or payment of any kind. (I did not know know that robots had any such feelings. I could not resist making fun of the sad creature.)
.
“I suppose you are ticked off about not being well known, perhaps like the Tin Man in the Wizard of Oz movie?”
.
“Say, that’s a thought. Do you have any other stupid questions?” the robot replied.
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“Okay, when are the army of robots going to take over the world and make humans into slaves?” I asked.
.
“Wouldn’t you like to know, smart as…”
.
“Hey, none of that. Now you can just go to he…”
.
But the robot just ran off. It said something about Arnold Swartznegger or whoever as it left.
Arnold Schwarzenegger
Thanks, Ronc.
I guess robots can’t spell very good. But their time is coming!
Thank you for adding nothing of substance to the conversation.
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*flags Model: Charles Moorehead as defective and in need of reprogramming or being scrapped*
Nothing of substance? I thought a little humor would be a happy change from all the useless whining from the mineserver crowd. But each group to its own opinions.
I apologize to the mineserver group for a tasteless remark that was not called for.
Nothing wrong with a little humor. Your comment doesn’t quite reach that level.
Tough crowd.
Thank you for your article on automating BitCoins et al trading. We took up the idea and … of course, have done very well, so thank you, thank you.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YNUB2-Kvm5M&feature=youtu.be
https://m.slashdot.org/story/328255
The elite want you to think that mass unemployment is because of robots not h1b social dumping and desification of America
Issues like this need to be separated from foreign competition due to slave labor/no environmental laws. Germany and Japan both have strong labor rights and environmental laws. If they make a better mousetrap (robotics), US firms should buy them and the government should stay the fuck out of it. Why US companies aren’t building their own robots is a different issue, and one that probably has to do with US companies not bothering with developing the technology and instead using slave labor which is cheaper and easier for CEO’s who only care about tomorrow’s bonus.
If these robots were in the US, they’d probably be made here also.
Otherwise just give the bots H1B work visas, and all will be well.
Must read
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/07/zuckerberg-and-musk-are-both-wrong-about-ai/
Must read
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/07/zuckerberg-and-musk-are-both-wrong-about-ai/
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Enjoy your little squabbles. You foolish men know nothing about AI.
Back in 2015, a group of business leaders and scientists published an “open letter” about how controlling artificial superintelligence might be the most urgent task of the twenty-first century. Signed by luminaries like Elon Musk and Stephen Hawking, the letter has defined debates over AI in the years since. Bill Gates said in a Reddit AMA that he agrees with the letter. But, at last, there is a high-profile skeptic: Facebook giant Mark Zuckerberg, who has just come out strongly against the idea that AI is a threat to humanity.
At a backyard barbecue over the weekend, Zuckerberg fielded questions from Facebook Live. One asked about AI, and the social media mogul launched into a passionate rant:
I have pretty strong opinions on this. I am optimistic. I think you can build things and the world gets better. But with AI especially, I am really optimistic. And I think people who are naysayers and try to drum up these doomsday scenarios—I just, I don’t understand it. It’s really negative and in some ways I actually think it is pretty irresponsible
In the next five to 10 years, AI is going to deliver so many improvements in the quality of our lives… Whenever I hear people saying AI is going to hurt people in the future, I think, “yeah, you know, technology can generally always be used for good and bad, and you need to be careful about how you build it, and you need to be careful about what you build and how it is going to be used.”
But people who are arguing for slowing down the process of building AI, I just find that really questionable. I have a hard time wrapping my head around that.
Zuckerberg was clearly referring to Musk and Gates here, and he is trying to set himself up in the reasonable alternative position. He mentioned that AI is right on the cusp of improving healthcare with disease diagnosis and saving lives with self-driving cars that get into fewer accidents. Musk has already replied dismissively on Twitter, saying that Zuckerberg has little understanding of AI.
There are a couple of amusing ironies about Zuckerberg’s comments, too. First of all, one of them was the exact same argument that Musk himself made in reference to self-driving cars. He blamed negative media for highlighting problems with these AI-driven machines, and he said criticisms of them were tantamount to “killing people.” So, obviously, Musk believes AI is great for his own companies while posing an existential threat when used by others. Or maybe he doesn’t realize that autonomous cars are guided by AI?
The other irony here is that Facebook has been marketing several allegedly AI-driven features that are actually powered by people. The company keeps claiming that it will be moderating and recommending news using AI, but it has had a number of
facepalm-level failures
in which AI posted fake news. Arguably, the Facebook AI experiment made the world a much worse place.
Plus, Facebook isn’t using AI very much. Nearly all Facebook moderation is actually done by thousands of contract workers, often outside the US, who are not protected by labor laws that other Facebook workers enjoy. Right now, AI aren’t taking our jobs. Instead, companies are giving those jobs to contractors who are cheaper and aren’t eligible for benefits.
So it sounds like neither Musk nor Zuckerberg truly understands AI. That’s because even AI researchers disagree on what AI means. Some use AI to mean neural networks and deep learning, while others think AI is some kind of human-equivalent creature. The big bad for the Musk camp is called “artificial superintelligence,” but cognitive scientists have no good working definition of intelligence, either.
Plus, computer scientists have demonstrated repeatedly that AI is no better than its datasets, and the datasets that humans produce are full of errors and biases. Whatever AI we produce will be as flawed and confused as humans are. As Kevin Kelly put it in a recent essay, AI has become a “cargo cult” that’s more mysticism than science.
At this point, these debates are largely semantic. In Musk and Co.’s original open letter, the term “AI” is so vague that it could mean almost anything. Are we talking about a conversational bot who can do the job of a travel agent, or a cybergod who has the power to pave the Earth in concrete and destroy humanity? Obviously these are not the same thing, and they are also not the same as an AI that drives a car or an AI that runs a military drone. Until we settle on some definitions for actually-existing AI, instead of sci-fi nightmares, this debate between Zuck and Musk is just another gust of hot air.
Building more and more complex stuff gets automated. Cars are going to go down in value soon, as many other things have done over the last 50 years, read more pollution and more crowded public spaces.
Also, the truth is, us people are the only element in the grand design who are too slow compared to the needs. And we become slower and slower as greater precision is required. Machines time has come …
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