Steve Jobs
… You know throughout the years in business I found something which was I’d always ask why you do things and the answer you invariably get is oh that’s just the way it’s done. Nobody knows why they do what they do. Nobody thinks about things very deeply in business. That’s what I found…
The quote above from just over 17 minutes into Steve Jobs — The Lost Interview is for me the greatest insight and the biggest idea in the whole movie. I find myself applying it to many things. You can, too. Just ask why?
In this column I’ll try applying the principle to one example of renewable energy — wind power. Why, when it comes to windmills, wind turbines, wind generators — whatever you want to call them — why are things done the way they are? The answers may surprise you.
I had a friend named Paul Lipps who died suddenly a few years ago, taking from the world a true genius when it came to many things but especially propellers and anti-propellers, which is what wind turbines are because rather than accelerate air they slow it down, taking power from the wind. At the time of his death I was trying to interest Paul in revolutionizing the wind turbine industry based entirely on asking why? We never got to do it, but we did answer some of the most important questions.
Paul Lipps designed propellers that looked unlike any others because he didn’t care how they looked, just how they functioned. His greatest success was in the Sport Biplane class at the Reno National Air Races, where one year the race plane for which he’d designed a propeller increased its top speed by 51 miles-per-hour with no change beyond the propeller. Nothing else was different from the year before. That race plane hasn’t lost a race… ever.
When we sat down to invent a new type of wind turbine it all began with a single question why: why do large wind turbines invariably have three blades?
In the case of this question the answer wasn’t “because that’s the way it has always been done.” The answer was, instead, “because we have a mathematical proof that three turbine blades extract the most energy from the wind stream.”
“The most energy,” in this case refers to the maximal efficiency of any wind turbine as calculated in 1919 by Albert Betz of Germany. According to Betz’s Law, no turbine can capture more than 16/27ths or 59.3 percent of the wind energy passing through the turbine disk. So 59.3 percent is the best you can hope for… or is it? In practical terms the best commercial wind turbines reach 75-80 percent of the Betz limit or no more than 48 percent total efficiency.
Yes, but why three blades?
The conventional answer to this question is that three blades minimizes the shadow effect that each leading blade has on the blade that follows. You want more blades to reduce the starting torque required to get your turbine spinning (this is analogous to having more cylinders in an engine making it run smoother) but if you have too many blades the shadow effect hurts efficiency and drops the total yield. Three blades peak at about 48 percent efficient, which isn’t 59.3 percent but is near enough and happens to be the practical output I mentioned two paragraphs ago. So it must be right, right?
Put another way, Rotor power = 2π M n is proportional to the torque M acting on the shaft and the rotation frequency n. The tip speed ratio λ = vu / v1 from the ratio of tip speed vu of the rotor and the wind speed v1. Optimal tip speed ratio is 7-8 for the three-bladed rotors where they achieve a cp value of 48 percent. Four blade turbines have higher torque but lower tip speed ratios. Turbines with two blades have even higher tip speed ratios but lower torque. In the end, three-blade turbines command the sweet spot and so that’s what are built.
It all sounds good but everything is dependent on total belief in Betz’s Law and in the concept of blade shadows. Only Paul Lipps didn’t believe in blade shadows. The more blades the better in Lipps’s view because the turbine blades are in a moving column of air. And even Betz’s Law is incorrectly applied in these examples because what matters isn’t power efficiency per turbine so much as power production per acre of wind farm.
If you are building a wind farm, what counts above all else is how many kilowatt- or megawatt-hours per year can your wind farm produce and that’s a function that goes far beyond Betz and three blades.
Conventional wisdom says wind farms should have their turbines placed in such a way that they don’t interfere with each other, the fear being that placing one turbine too closely in the shadow of another will reduce the efficiency of the showed turbine. The rule of thumb, then, is that turbines be placed no closer than seven diameters apart. Keep that number in mind.
Now a word about computational fluid dynamics (CFD), super computers, and how wind fields are designed. You’d think it would be all about CFD but it isn’t. Turbines are designed with three blades and those blades should be as long as practically possible with the turbines mounted on towers that are as tall as possible to get out of ground effect and into faster-moving air. Oh, and turbines are placed seven diameters apart. That’s it, no CFD. This is because past experiments in CFD modeling wind farms haven’t gone very well. “It just doesn’t work,” we were told over and over again.
Shouldn’t that be a clue there’s something wrong with the popular methodology?
One other point to ponder is why, when you drive past a wind farm, very often the turbines aren’t turning at all? This is because they use alternators that consumer electrical power to energize their windings so there is no point in turning-on the alternator (energizing those windings) until there’s enough wind to generate a net positive amount of electricity. You can get around this by using permanent magnet generators instead of alternators, but those are more expensive, requiring rare earth magnets.
If you happen to drive past a wind farm in the middle of a storm you’ll further notice that the turbines are stopped then, too, to avoid damage from high winds and too-fast rotational speeds. The result of all this not starting and then stopping is that throughout the year an average workload of 23 percent is reached by inland wind farms, 28 percent for coastal farms and 43 for off-shore. Even offshore wind farms have their turbines actually generating electricity less than half of the time.
All this not generating requires a lot of control, too. Wind farms are generally networked together and under computer control. In some cases wind farm automation can cost as much as the turbines, themselves. It’s a major maintenance headache, too.
One last point about conventional wind farms before I start to build toward my boffo conclusion: they are biased toward very large industrial organizations. General Electric, for example, is big in wind power. All the top companies are big because look at what they are creating — huge farms of enormous wind turbines built at immense cost and controlled to the millisecond. No little companies need apply. Try breaking into the industrial wind power business without at least $1 billion in capital. It can’t be done. The incumbent companies like it that way, too.
But there’s a better way to build wind farms. First, make the turbines smaller and with a lot more than three blades. Twelve blades is a nice number. And make those blades no more than 40 feet in length because that’s the length of a full size shipping container. This enables true mass production of blades and turbines in large centralized factories at considerable cost savings.
China will build the heck out of those smaller blades.
Because they are smaller you will need more of these Lipps turbines to fill your wind farm than you would those huge 100+ meter wind turbines. You still want to put the little turbines on tall towers, but because the turbines are smaller the towers can be lighter, too. And put them closer together — a lot closer together than seven diameters. There’s a way to position them that actually increases output from the field. Remember the diameters are smaller so instead of hundreds of turbines we’re talking about thousands of turbines for the same wind farm. Imagine a field of mature dandelions.
Shorter blades are stronger than longer blades, so the Lipps turbines can operate in faster winds. More blades mean lower starting torque so the Lipps turbines can operate in slower winds, too, so that 23/28/43 percent of active generating could be expanded considerably. Use permanent magnet generators and the turbines could be allowed to run 24/7 in any wind with no computer control required at all, leading to more production at even lower cost.
Now it is time to iterate. We have smaller turbines with four times as many blades built at much lower cost and installed in much higher density and generating 24/7 in both higher and lower winds. What impact would those design changes have on wind farm site selection? Well it would dramatically expand the areas suitable for wind farms, which tend to be far away from the very people and businesses intended to consume the power. Lipps wind farms could be closer to cities and therefore have lower transmission losses, further increasing power output.
Our calculated result of a Lipps wind farm compared to the same farm using current state-of-the-art wind turbines and control is the Lipps farm would cost no more (probably less) and generate 5-8 times as much power per acre per year, all without violating Betz.
And no insane cows, either. Cattle can’t be pastured under wind farms because the motion of the turbine blades and especially their sound drives cows crazy. Lipps turbines with their 12 shorter blades have a much less obtrusive higher frequency sound that cows don’t seem to notice.
That’s a lot of ideas from just asking why.
Alas, it didn’t happen because Paul Lipps died. His heirs chose to continue only one Lipps product line — propellers for drones. If you want a Lipps prop for your drone, you’ll have to buy it from Boeing, the sole source.
I think the Soviets were onto the “lots of blades” idea long ago. And often backed up by second, counterrotating blades.
I had hopes for this project… but have not heard anything since their Indiegogo campaign: http://vortexbladeless.com/index.php
I like the bladeless idea, with the lower impact (no pun intended) on birds/bats/cows.
I like the Vortex bladeless idea. I wonder if you can replace the tower with a big tree. Imagine a forest that generates power.
As for the three blades, I often wondered why only three, but I am not in the field (pun not intended), so I couldn’t find out for myself. Shouldn’t the most efficient number of blades depend on the wind speed, though?
Fascinating! It’s not about asking questions, it’s about asking the right questions! The first framing question is efficiency from blade to outlet, but it’s really about effciency from capital markets to factory floor to farm to outlet.
In addition to varying turbine design based on farm productivity and grid impact, why not vary turbine design/blade counts based on position within farm so that outer turbines are tuned to manage stop/start and storms and inner turbines are receiving air that is less violent? For that matter, why not tune the design of each farm to the specifics of the terrain and geography?
Actually, IT IS about asking questions. Just challenging the status quo gets you a long way toward success in life. The RIGHT questions come with networking and stubbornness, because you can’t know everything yourself.
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Distributed power is still a game for the wealthy. If you try photo voltaic at the single family home scale, it’s still a rat’s nest of incompatible or unreliable electronics and installers. It’s like computers were in the 1970s. The first one to standardize and package it for the masses will have tons of business.
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I imagine someone from China or Korea will do this. These days American business can’t imagine anything beyond selling everyone’s privacy, or marketing the hell out of crap that has little value.
Re: “These days American business can’t imagine anything…” America used to be great…
So tell me … what do you think of Solar City?
Something like these small 1.6 kW turbines, that can be combined into mini wind farms (scroll down for pics):
https://www.hydrogenappliances.com/Commander.html
Just a couple of additional WHY thoughts here.
Why do the turbines have to have to face into the wind?
Why not rotate them 90% so that the blades are parallel to the ground?
Why not (assuming the design of yes to the prior why’s) make the blades wider and at a better angle to capture wind gusts?
If that type of design is feasible, why not build the wind farm with such turbines where each turbine is located next to an opposite spinning turbine (would this aid in minimizing the shadow effect???)?
Why not build the turbines to be able to operate in winds in excess of 250 MPH, so there is never a concern with tornadic/high wind activity (other than potential damage from objects striking the turbines) ?
Why not make the turbine blades even smaller (shorter), so that wind farms COULD be placed closer to population centers as the farms could be smaller in size (less acreage), quieter, etc.
Kansas resident here… your chances of getting hit by a tornado, even in tornado alley, are near 0 over your lifetime. However, windfarms are huge (just drive across Kansas on I70 to see what I mean) so the chances of some part of your windfarm being hit is pretty likely, but any individual point is unlikely (make sense?). The damage track from most tornados is also very small (less than a football field), so engineering a turbine that can withstand a tornado is pretty pointless expense when you could just replace one or two turbines.
More frequently in Kansas, we have other weather phenomenon that’s hazardous to turbines… high winds from cold air plumes smashing into the earth (often called “straight line winds”), softball sized hail, etc.
Also, wind turbines could potentially wreck havoc on the ecosystem as they make prairie burns more difficult logistically (Yes, burning the prairie is necessary, and actually has net negative affect to global warming). This is allowing non-native species, and species that normally are kept in check by burns to flourish and reduce biodiversity.
In the end, nothing is free, and wind power is extremely complex. Sources: I’m an engineer, an outdoorsman, and attended a college in the middle of the Tall Grass Prairie.
The “right” question here is: “is there scientific proof that industrial wind energy is a NET societal benefit?”
The answer is NO.
End of discussion.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence. So quite the contrary, the discussion is far from over.
Is there scientific proof you are not an idiot? No? I guess you must be an idiot then.
Do you live in Germany?
https://www.geek.com/news/germany-produced-so-much-renewable-energy-it-paid-people-to-use-it-1654913/
The reason why windmills have three blades is not because that understood to be the most energy efficient, it is because of diminishing returns. 4 blades return more energy than three blades, but they cost 33% more than 3 blades and don’t return 33% more energy. 3 blades has been found to be the most economical configuration for windmills. It’s not all about extracting the most energy per acre but the most energy per dollar.
One issue I see with your plan, Bob, is that permanent magnets are likely to be in short supply, dramatically so for the scale of what you are proposing.
Rare earth magnets are man-made. The rare-earth part of the name comes from the use of rare-earth elements in the manufacture of the magnets.
Whilst the name “rare earth” is not about availability, they are somewhat scarce and the Chinese have quite a grip on that particular resource. The result, the Chinese have used the fact they control the market as a barganing tool to get western production into China. Obviously with it goes the manufacturing IP and as a number of companies have found, all of a sudden they have Chinese competitors undercutting them in their market because they have not incured the R&D costs…
Although the “why” in your post is obviously meant to question if there is another better way, coming from Denmark I can at least give some of the historical answers to why three blades, and the short answer is that the “Gedser Wind Turbine” had three blades. Almost all modern wind turbines are descended from the Gedser Wind Turbine built in 1956, and for stability reasons it had three blades.
Visually, large slow-moving three-bladed turbines look more pleasing to the eye than fast multi-bladed turbines.
Although it may seem stupid to stop a wind turbine when a storm is blowing, you have to consider how much energy you would really win when a storm is blowing compared to the additional strength that the whole construction has to have to withstand running during a storm.
Bob, you seem to be under the illusion that wind farms are too designed to produce electricity. In Europe for example, they are definitely not. There they are designed to extract tax payer subsidies for the land owners. They are a scam.
This article indicates that more blades might be better (in a slightly different context):
https://www.theonion.com/blogpost/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades-11056
How much closer can the proposed turbines be placed to each other? That would potentially allow for multiple turbines to be placed on the same tower, unless there’s some other obvious reason they can’t/shouldn’t be placed on the same tower.
A Little factlet about propeller history: Well into the 1920 airplane designer hadn’t a good theorical base to select optimal propeller form factor , that’s why some designer like Tupolev tought of huge propellers rotating slowly functionally equivalent of smaller ones rotating much faster. Later practice proved that idea wrong.
[…] by /u/eleemosynary [link] […]
[…] by /u/eleemosynary [link] […]
I wondered a lot about this question when I was younger. So in junior high, I did a science experiment in my house, shaping three sets of propellers out of roughly the same mass of balsa wood: one with two blades, one with three, and one with four. I then tested their power by timing how long it took each propeller (attached to a rod) to wind up different weights attached by a string to the rod. I blew the same amount of wind against the propellers using a leaf blower. Obviously there are a lot of tiny variables that were not precisely controlled for, but the four-blade propeller was a clear winner in terms of how quickly it pulled up the different weights. I took that as a proxy for the idea that more blades was better (I randomly hypothesized that it had something to do with surface area) and I never did understand why we only used three blades for large wind turbines.
I never followed up on this research more formally but I got a special award at the junior high science fair from NASA for it 🙂 So thanks for this article!
Ironically, my last name is also Lipps!
Great story. Thanks for sharing. It’s remarkable (to me) how much progress we’ve made just by trial and error, as your younger self did.
[…] I, Cringely […]
This article has some interesting takes on wind power:
The technical advances that could make wind power viable everywhere – http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/06/making-wind-power-work-even-in-low-wind-locations/
Also: (# Cows Driven Insane) / (coefficeint of Cow belch) + ([turbune speed] – [blade rotational delta]) = Moo.
1) The lead sentence reminds me of the story about the housewife who prepares a baked ham by cutting the end off. The husband asks why and she says that’s the way her mother made it. The next Sunday, when they’re visiting her they ask why and she says that’s the way *her* mother made it. Luckily, Nana is still around, so they visit her and ask why you cut the end off the ham. “Because the pan was too small,” she replies.
2) Entertaining discussion. I’m afraid the math got away from me not long after the first equation, but that’s OK. The one thing you don’t address is eagles. Would the new turbines be as efficient at killing bald eagles as the current ones?
3) Whether it was this article’s intent or not, it nicely illustrates the problem with “green” energy–economically it just doesn’t work unless Government compels power companies to use it. I just finished the most recent 10K for a power utility I hold stock in and they could serve their customers a lot better if they were just allowed to use their existing coal plants instead of being required to build wind farms as quickly as they can. I also sit on the board of a small water utility. We looked at solar and wind to do some kind of green energy project on some of our properties and in the end neither pencils out. If you get all the possible subsidies, and nothing unexpected happens AND you don’t look too closely at total cost of ownership, the best you can hope for is to be about the same cost as natural gas.
4) I’ve really enjoyed this site. For various reasons I had the old “Triumph of the Nerds” videotape out the other day and it occurred to me that you probably had a blog, so for the past year or so I’ve been binging on this like someone who discovered “Walking Dead” on Netflix. I do need to get around to buying a book or something though, because you can’t eat thank-yous, but thank you nonetheless.
Well Steve, if you want to take an honest look at things you’ll have to factor in the subsidies that the fossil fuel industries receive too. I’m flummoxed by the movement to reduce subsidies (achieved through fossil fuel lobbying) in renewable tech, yet there seems to be no problem with huge existing subsides for fossil fuel companies.
Fossil fuel industries–rightly so at the time–were aided by government subsidies when they were emerging technologies. Don’t believe it? Google “History Of U.S. Energy Subsidies”. Obviously renewables should too.
It was smart policy then. It’s imperative policy now.
The financial rewards will be heroic for those who build the best clean energy mouse trap. It should happen here.
I’ve noticed a consistent theme among the fossil fuel fanboy crowd, and if you pay attention you’ll notice it too. Often they’ll go through great lengths to demonstrate how current technology is superior, yet they’ll fail to account for similar drawbacks that exist in the tech they defend.
For example many try to argue that electric vehicles are actually as dirty as combustion vehicles by pointing out the dirty mining/manufacturing of batteries, or that they just pollute elsewhere via more coal and gas combustion at the power plant. The reality is that any mass produced product has some environmental cost. Ever seen a smelting plant? How about a petroleum refinery? There’s more steel needed for ICE vehicles, so battery or steel and petroleum, it’s all dirty. It’s about mitigating the damage. As for “displaced air pollution”, it turns out that generating power at large scale, even using coal (with the accompanying mandated environmental controls) is less damaging to air quality (particulate matter and greenhouse gasses) than using millions of little ICEs to power vehicles. An illustration to the efficiency: EVs need an on-board heater for climate control. ICE vehicles have all the excess heat you can stand, summer or winter with plenty more going out the tailpipe. Another clue: despite all the energy densely packed into a gallon of gasoline, it’s still cheaper per mile to use electricity, even with $2 gas.
It’s the total cost per mile that makes EVs attractive. People forget that the cost of gas is often more than the cost of the car over it’s lifetime.
It’s not the EV’s fault you’re fueling it with coal generated electricity. There are zero emission ways to make power, and they’re getting better and cheaper every day. Yes, I hear those shouting that solar and wind are intermittent. That’s what batteries are for. Again, cheaper and more efficient all the time. Meanwhile every day, the amount of petroleum available for the rest of humanity dwindles. This is certain.
The measure of each generation is how they leave the world for the next. We humans are smarter then the fossil fuel dilemma we’ve created for ourselves. We’d damned better be, or we humans face a very ugly–and avoidable–chapter in our history.
Typical Liberal -lets give everyone tax dollars. No, lets not. Either they develop and build a commercially viable product and they succeed. Or they do not and they are thrown on the trash heap of history. Any group getting a tax subsidy should have that removed. When are you Libs going to stop reaching into my wallet to achieve what YOU want?
The “Typical Liberal” was advocating the removal of subsidies for fossil fuel extraction. Why are you not applauding his position?
Take a closer look at the fossil fuel subsidies. What you’ll find is that they are mostly tax deductions available to all companies, not just energy industry. Things like manufacturing, payroll, etc.
The story about the ham in the pan was funny. Sort of like why linux has directories named /bin, /usr/bin, and /sbin, and /usr/sbin. In the days unix was invented hard disks were 1 megabyte. /bin held the stuff needed to start he system. /usr/bin held stuff needed for the flavor of unix you ran(aix, etc) /usr/local/bin held your stuff.
“[Power companies] could serve their customers a lot better if they were just allowed to use their existing coal plants instead of being required to build wind farms as quickly as they can. ”
In fairness, they could also reduce costs by employing slave and child labor, but we have to consider the broader impact on society. Energy production is (at least) a business, engineering, AND governmental problem, and ignoring one or more aspects of the problem can lead to very suboptimal solutions in the long term.
Even a cursory review of atmospheric CO2 levels would lead an experienced engineer to recognize that we saturated the atmosphere around 1950, with concentrations rising slowly but steadily since. While we can certainly debate the specific end result as predicted by a large majority of climate models, saturated natural systems tend to end badly.
Burning coal is usually cheap (although fracking has made natural gas less expensive in the short run), but the array of airborne pollutants released by coal is problematic in many respects. “Just burn coal” is cheap for power plants and their customers, but very expensive for society as a whole. The medical, radiological, meteorological, and similar impacts are ignored in your calculus, suboptimalizing the overall solution to favor cheap power at the meter.
That our economic system has failed to allocate the long term costs appropriately (most often labeled the “Tragedy of the Commons”) is a fundamental problem that we as a society and a species need to address.
Thank You Mr Cringly for an excellent explaination as to why the big ones want to occupy the best areas and put the breaks on the expansion of windpower..
I have for long wondered why old windmills had for wings and a lot greater area used to catch wind and transform that to enormous grindingwheelstion. But heavy generators demanded smaller wingarea and advanced hydralics to manage obsessive stupidity to make windgenerators freeze when they really could catch energy…
Why no a spring to turn a blades from excessive wind? Keeping the generators producing….
And please bear with my poor english and non enginering skills…. 🙂
You forget about the hub. Not only does this have to take significant force from the blades (just look at the number and size of bolts connecting a blade to the hub) , it also has to provide the mechanism for adjusting the pitch of the blade. Going to the proposed 12 blades would make the hub significantly larger, more complex and more expensive. Even if the individual blade roots are smaller, you have to fit twelve of them in the circumference and twelve adjustment mechanisms, and have enough material to actually carry the loads. Meanwhile (because you’re using smaller blades) the blade disk is smaller and power is reduced.
May I sugsest a singel spring that centers around the rotoraxel and works on all the blades and adjusts the pitch automagically as the wind forces them. Cheap and effektive.. If we really only charged batteries then the need for synk and everything else expencive is out of the way.
Because the Lipps wind turbine doesn’t require changing pitch! I told you the guy was a genius. While it is possible to make a variable pitch Lipps prop you generally wouldn’t want to because it would lower the overall efficiency of the system. The pitch distribution would be sub-optimal and the necessary round blade shanks are an aerodynamic nightmare. Conventional wisdom says the highest practical propeller efficiency is around 85 percent. This is achieved either with a fixed-pitch propeller at some specific design point (typically cruise or climb speed) or with a variable pitch propeller operating often in off-design circumstances but still pretty close to 85 percent. In contrast, the fixed pitch propeller on Paul Lipps’ own Lancair 235 was 91 percent efficient in cruise (200 mph) but in a climb at 100 mph the same prop was still 85 percent efficient. Adding pitch control would only increase weight, decrease performance and — as another reader pointed out — introduce additional points of failure. The Lipps hub isn’t a hub in those terms, but rather an SAE backing flange, front crush plate, and six high strength bolts. So let the wind blow: the turbine will just make more power.
>Alas, it didn’t happen because Paul Lipps died. His heirs chose to continue only one Lipps product line — propellers for drones. If you want a Lipps prop for your drone, you’ll have to buy it from Boeing, the sole source.
So, why don’t you get the assistance of another engineer to help you design them, and start a company to do it yourself, then, Mr. Cringely?
Patents…
So why do not boatpropellers rotate in a cylinder? How much of the energy is thrown away in the wrong direction…. So windenergy could do the same and gain a lot of extra power.
Eagles would not fly through either.
Ever felt the strong winds between two buildings? So by concentrating the wind the force and the gain gets raised..
Many boat propellers do rotate in a tunnel. Jet skis are the most obvious example, but there’s a lot of others.
Excellent article Bob! Your ideas make good sense. Asking the Why question reminded me of this other wind powered source, you may have come across it, the Saphonian blade less system.
https://www.gizmag.com/saphonian-bladeless-wind-turbine/24890/?li_source=LI&li_medium=default-widget
Always lean toward local control and generation, and minimal transport costs for delivering energy, as you have pointed out in the article. Not in favor of huge utilities controlling everything from expensive and massive setups and distribution systems of the same nature. Thanks!
@Steve Yousten In other words, roman charriot and rail gauge.
Very intersting article. We should encourage cheaper experiments to avoid restricting ideas to be tried only be a few large companies.
“instead of hundreds of turbines we’re talking about thousands of turbines for the same wind farm.”
So 10x the capital cost, and probably about the same factor for maintenance cost.
“Lipps farm would cost no more (probably less)”
Hard to reconcile this with 10x number of turbines, but if you have actual numbers, love to see them.
“generate 5-8 times as much power per acre per year”
So 10x capital cost for only 8x output improvement. Bob, you yourself once wrote that an idea has to be 10x better than its replacement to be viable. Doesn’t look like this passes the test.
No. The Lipps wind turbines are dramatically cheaper, more robust, and higher performance. Blades can be mass-produced. There is no pitch changing or rotor furling mechanism. There is no computer control. The tower loads are dramatically lower so the towers can be simpler. It should be obvious that a smaller, simpler design wouldn’t cost MORE as you imply.
And we haven’t even started with fuel cell technology either! Growing up as a kid from the panhandle of Texas, I always wondered why we built wind generators with three gigantic blades and towers to the sky, when the “old guys” had been pumping water out of the ground with 20-30 blades (or so) for decades, and hardly any of them complained about it. Could you power a farm on 1-2-3 of the “old style” windmills putting energy into batteries for laptops and other personal electronics? I’ll bet they’re doing it in South Africa and South America right now!
I suspect the truth does lie in the fact that the large blades and scale of modern wind power “turbines” prevent small companies from attempting to build smaller “self generating” systems which take people off the grid. Add to that the benefits of hydrogen or natgas fuel cells, and I really do think that this country could be EASILY energy and big company independent in 20 years, if we would stop listening to, and electing the idiots that are currently in power. This country is all about large companies and the government protecting the 1% and their self-interests, in the name of protecting us with the drone fines.
And I’ve already seen the solar cell-phone chargers they are using in other parts of the world. So, big companies just scale things up to try convince the public that they are the only game in town!
Wind farms will end up on the trash heap of history within a decade. They are economically not feasible and are only here because of government subsidies. We have seen this senario before.
[…] Why Wind Turbines Have Three Blades […]
Of course some people https://www.powerhousewind.co.nz/story.htm are going the opther way and just using one blade
How about putting little nuclear plants all over?
Like in a nuclear submarine or carrier?
“And no insane cows, either. Cattle can’t be pastured under wind farms because the motion of the turbine blades and especially their sound drives cows crazy.”
This claim is highly suspect. I live in the middle of a wind farm, on a dairy farm, full of cows being pastured under 1.5MW turbines.
I’m hoping the parts of this article which I know nothing about are better researched than the part I do know something about.
Good point. I have removed that section.
My only encounter with wind farms was at a roadside rest stop in New Mexico. There were a bunch of wind turbines in an adjacent field.
They were at least 200 yards away, and so noisy you had to raise your voice noticeably to speak over them. Up close, I imagine it would be like standing under a helicopter on take-off.
We don’t have them where I live. The wind sock hangs limp most of the year, and then the tornados come and take it and the pole away…
In regard to preconceived engineering…
About 30 years ago, I read a trade magazine article on the development of the Mitsubshi A6M type O, or Zero.
The Japanese defense establishment released a procurement notice for a fighter with fairly extreme performance characteristics, as to speed and distance and other specs (like climb rates, naval needs, etc…). Nakajima saw the specs and took a pass, but the designer at Mitsubishi attempted to work it. One problem was that Japanese industries largest engine was a modest 900hp radial engine. So the engineer designing the plane went back to the engineering tables that most engineers use. He discovered that they were conservatively arrived at, and so he reworked and recreated the engineering tables by less conservative means. If I recall correctly, and it was 30 years ago, and I’m not anything close to an Engineer, some lighter metals came available. He stripped armor from the plane, including, unfortunately for pilots, the armor protecting the pilot. The result was the Zero with high speed, incredible maneuverability, incredible range (wonder what might have happened if Japan had loaned Germany a couple of hundred of these planes during the battle of Britian, and as Germany and Russia were still allies under the Soviet-Nazi pact, it might have been possible to transfer these easily enough to Germany).
The down side was, the lack of armor meant that it didn’t take much to shoot down the plane. A single burst apparently was enough to shoot one down.
The Zero was an amazing feat of engineering from a nation that wasn’t then known for such things (I have written quite a bit about how and why Japan came to value quality in products), but it only works well when operated as a system. Yes, they compromised some engineering standards to achieve lighter weight and air crews accepted the necessarily higher danger (no self-sealing fuel tanks, for example) but most of the vaunted performance advantages of the Zero came down to how they were flown, not how they were built. They had great range because pilots were willing to fly them so slowly (at maximum lift coefficient, generally 1.3 times stall speed — the speed used in most planes for landing approach) even if it took many hours to reach the target. Interestingly Charles Lindbergh demonstrated a similar technique to front-line P-38 pilots in the Pacific who used it to stretch their range. Dog-fighting, too, was done at a lower speed which allowed for tighter turns. If a Zero pilot could sucker the opponent into a turning battle it was over, but by the same token the best way to take down a Zero was with a diving attack to which the Zero simply couldn’t respond
I think that you may have left out an environmental impact factor, from what I understand the turbine that you are proposing will result in more blades, moving faster, closer to the ground and in tightly packed farms (is this correct?) In effect a shredder for any bird flying into the farm. I am exaggerating, I know, but I do it to stimulate the thought experiment.. So the thing to consider here is which desigin of windmill has the least impact on the local environment…
If you’re interested in Zeros and Japanese engineering, I strongly recommend Miyazaki’s animated movie The Wind Rises.
It’s about Jiro Horikoshi, the designer of the Mitsubishi A5M and the A6M Zero.
Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QFBZgAZx7g
Actually, anyone at all interested in flying and aircraft will probably enjoy it.
[…] Source: I, Cringely Why wind turbines have three blades – I, Cringely […]
The whole asking why thing reminds me of when I was studying the Toyota Production Method, and Kaizen. I think the particular theory was called “The Seven Whys.”
Let’s say your turbine grinds to a halt:
Why? It seized.
Why? It was low on oil.
Why? This oil seal failed.
Why? It was installed upside down.
Why? Because it can be installed upside down.
Why? Er, because it’s not foolproof?
Why is it not foolproof?
Can be laborious but on the other hand it magically never seems to take more than seven whys to get to the meat of how a process is flawed, and to a, usually, simple fix.
I could easily imagine Steve repeatedly saying, “Yeah, but why?” until people wanted to throw stuff at him.
https://www.lanl.gov/science/1663/interactive/april2014/files/24.html
The larger the turbine the higher the probability it will not be operating.
One of the big challenges of wind farms is not so much the extraction of energy but the storage and transportation of energy after it has been produced. Our nations run on hydrocarbons, so the ideal windfarm would generate hydrocarbons. And that would certainly by possible. There are many chemical processes, such as fischer tropsch and others that make hydrocarbons out of raw carbon sources and energy. For example, a wind farm could have natural gas piped to it and that could produce a good mix of hydrocarbons much the same way that we dig it out of the ground. Often natural gas drilling rigs are in places ideally suited to wind farm development, (off shore or in the windy plains of the Dakotas.)
If we really want to make wind farms effective the key is to privatize them. If you can make a relatively low cost windmill that turns wind energy into hydrocarbon product, even stored in a tank, then private individuals would buy them and make their fortunes. They’d pop up on every farm in America.
It’d be lovely if the CO2 from the atmosphere could be extracted and converted into Hydrocarbons in a standalone system, but I’m inclined to think that the density isn’t high enough.
So there is some out of the box thinking for you Bob.
Reminds me of the ISRU plan for Mars – use water from the ground, CO2 from the atmosphere, and electricity (various sources) to generate O2 and Methane … which would then be used for the methalox rocket engines you would use for the return trip.
The argument “because it’s always been done that way” has been a PITA my whole IT career. It goes hand in hand with “don’t fix it if it ain’t broke”.
I agree with the basic concept behind “don’t fix it”, but only when the whole phrase is expressed and answered. The whole phrase MUST be:
don’t fix it if it ain’t broke, but before you make a decision you must also define “broke” and “Ain’t broke”!
Just because something “works”, does not mean it is working most efficiently. As your article has indicated.
On the question of horizontal turbines, it has been tried. For the conspiracy theorists, the company was bought out and the patents buried … hmmmm
http://web.archive.org/web/20110322061224/http://pacwind.remnet.com/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PacWind
You proposed smaller turbines, that has also been done:
https://www.motorwavegroup.com/windfarm/
Here is another company that uses both vertical and micro installations:
https://www.windstream-inc.com/my-solarmill
This article talks about “bigger is better” for wind generators:
http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/06/making-wind-power-work-even-in-low-wind-locations/
A while back I read an interesting article about Wind power subsidies (can’t find it right now). Apparently in some places there is a really nice subsidy scam working. A company buys a wind farm, and gets a subsidy. A few years later they sell to another company (maybe even just a different name, owned by same people) who get another subsidy, while the first company invests the payment in another wind farm, getting another subsidy … Unfortunately, it sounds too plausible.
Keep up the good work.
In my experience in IT, “Don’t fix it if it ain’t broke” is inevitably followed by “Why didn’t you see this coming?!”
The PacWind patents can be viewed on uspto.gov:
1 8,648,483 Full-Text Vertical axis wind turbine system
2 8,362,641 Full-Text Distributed wind turbine electric generation system
3 8,146,219 Full-Text Portable renewable energy box system
4 8,030,792 Full-Text Vertical axis wind turbine system
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=pacwind&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PTXT
There’s a systems engineering mathematical basis for (sometimes) following the “don’t fix it if it ain’t broke” approach. If you have a long path of many failures to get to the spot where you are saying that you can predict that going down other paths is not likely to do as well.i.e., if you’ve spent years optimzing a process, you might not want to start over. Windmills. Laminar flow. etc. seems like that one. Surprising how many patients are killed by changing medication combinations that evolved over decades. That’s even more of a situation in medicine because while the wind does not change in response to the turbine, the cardiovascular system DOES adapt to the heart medications.
Google invested billions and concluded renewable energy won’t work for solving global warming.
I don’t think this improvement even if achievable would affect their calculations substantially.
This is a very good article, Bob.
We put 11kw of PV on our roof as a kind of retirement investment. It easily cut our energy bills by 50% (all electric home), and since the cost of electricity has gone up and is expected to keep going up for a while, it has been a better investment than the stock market, or anything else.
So I have been fascinated by the notion of small generation. A small, low speed, windmill would be a wonderful thing. Yet the ones I have seen seem to have 3 blades and don’t make much, especially at low speeds. But Heller-Aller company of Napoleon, Ohio made windmills to pump water from the 1880’s to the 1990’s, long before Albert Betz. And they never got the memo on 3 blades.
I think they have 26. If 3 blades is ‘the sweet spot’ Heller Aller must operate in another dimension or something.
http://henrycountyhistory.org/windmill.html
They pump water in the slightest breeze, and have been known to last 50 years or more with just routine maintenance. They somehow solved the issue of too much wind, and do not need towers 100’s of feet high to function. I have seen them around Ohio still turning even though the farm is long abandoned. Parts are cheap also and, although they went under in 1990, parts are still available because the windmills last so long. I believe their biggest business problem was that their stuff lasted too long.
Small, cheap, long lasting. What subversive ideas.
Interesting thank you Bob and all the commentors .i am currently doing a small wind power experiment and your ideas will prove usefull . Have tried 1 type of vertical which proved unproductive.next 12 blades with an induction cowel.different opinions is what gives us the right answers .
Thanks all
In the 80s a giant 2-blade design (“GROWIAN”) was tested in Germany, but it was a failure.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconventional_wind_turbines
Nice article on the Lipps (elliptical) propeller helped me make a bit more sense of this whole discussion. See http://rexresearch.com/lippsprop/lipps.htm
> sweet spot
That’s not a sweet spot, that’s “industry standard.”
As in, “We just copied what everyone else was doing.”
Re: “everything is dependent on total belief in Betz’s Law”. Speaking of questioning conventional wisdom, I wonder if anyone has an opinion about the Bernoulli principle applied to airplane lift. This is the top result googling the 2 words, Bernoulli misapplied: https://www.seykota.com/rm/delusions/delusions.htm
If, say, one in ten of your mini windmills had rare-earth magnets could it be used to power up the other nine? And if you used the sporadic power to pump water uphill I’m sure that a reasonably efficient turbine could add power to the grid, at the right frequency, as and when needed.
Why use pumped storage? Trains are the new “in” thing instead – or so they claim.
https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11524958/energy-storage-rail
I have a more interesting “why” question? Why no update on your Kickstarter?
“You’ll get your product (a lot quicker than many crowdfunded projects) and a month from now all will be well with the world. As for those cheery updates, well when a problem has been solved you DO feel cheery.”
More than a month later…But you are right, any update would make us feel cheery.
[…] https://www.cringely.com/2016/05/06/15262/ […]
Props need mechanisms to “feather” them.
The more blades, the more complicated the mechanisms to “feather” the propellers..
Decades ago there were race car teams that tried to compete with 6 wheeled cars. There were cars with 2 sets of front wheels and there were cars with 2 sets of rear wheels.
They had either excellent grip on turns or great traction.
The problem was that it took much longer to replace the wheels at the pit stops, so they fell behind and lost.
There are always limiting factors such as time and expense. The over engineered designs do not always beat the simpler designs.
I vaguely remember that the 6-wheeled cars got outright banned by the FIA and not that it took too long to change the tyres. But then I may be wrong and I haven’t checked.
True..but how does this relate back to IBM?
Doomed to fail, without subsidies.
Well I think today’s wind turbine is seriously outdated, these guys here are on to something awesome! https://igg.me/at/10x-change
[…] Why Wind Turbines Have Three Blades […]
How many blades does a MineServer have?
[…] Source: I, Cringely Why wind turbines have three blades – I, Cringely […]
One other benefit that Bob could look for in the smaller wind turbine is the reduced riskof brinelling, the small indentations in ball bearings which can occur when they are at rest and the weight of the turbine shaft is especially concentrated on one or two balls in the race. This why often the blades have to be turned (and use electrical power to do it) when there is no wind.
I understand that a significant portion of the failures in wind turbines are attributable to brinelling, as damaged bearings overheat and either start fires or seize (or both). Perhaps someone in the industry can comment on this problem
You get totally different everything if it is laminar versus turbulent wind. I suspect you really really do not want large blades in turbulent wind. Furthermore, it’s pretty easy to show you want something that looks like a wind speed measurer or a pinwheel instead of a windmill if you have turbulent flow. (build it and blow on it).
.
Oh, and all along the path of trains is turbulent flow. Average wind speed over 20 mph and entirely predictable as train schedules and especially prevalent in urban areas.
Thanks for that understandable explanation of the Betz limit. Great article.
Bob, don’t you remember driving over the Altamont pass in the early 80s and seeing a great variety of wnd turbines, some obviously failed. I do, and I remember seeing a large wind farm in Southern California with many small multibladed turbines on lattice type tower structures back then. As a engineer with many years experience in the small hydro business, I think that the wind industry has evolved to the large three blade turbine design through a lot of experience. The trend toward ever larger machines is driven not by turbine physics, but in optimizing total cost factors; costs of generators of varying capacity and speeds, site construction, control systems, maintenance, reliability, and operability. It may well be that there is room for aerodynamic performance improvement, but a few percent of improvement there will not greatly affect the overall economics of wind farms. The cost/kilowatt of the generator goes down with increasing power, but up with lower speed/kW. The turbine speed is inversely proportional to the diameter, but the power is proportional to the diameter squared. Scale effects are powerful.
Still, an interesting question, and the commenter’s link above referenced the Lipps propeller design was good too.
I have shares in a small wind turbine company https://www.windflow.co.nz/
They have thought differently about turbines, although not in quite the same ways as Bob.
They make 500kW turbines (blades much larger than a shipping container, but small enough to transport relatively easily by road.) They have two blades per turbine. This enables some clever technology that allows the blades to change their angle of attack as the turbine rotates. They are strong on low noise, and operating in high winds.
Having said all that, they aren’t doing well and my shares are worth much less than I paid for them about a decade ago, but if you want to look at turbine technology which is a bit off the beaten track, look them up (although not quite as far off the beaten track as Bob’s proposed turbines.)
Fascinating article about holistic design from the fundamentals – Elon Musk sometimes talks about how that takes more effort. Planes and wind turbines fascinate me and I know that they can both be made more cheaply than is typical now. I love flying on the Airbus A380 because it is so quiet but I’m puzzled about the design decisions that created a plane that weighs almost one tonne per passenger (roughly 15 times the passenger weight) whilst I can fly in a hang glider that weighs one-third my weight. If we separated the take-off and sustain portions of a flight with a fly-home booster, wouldn’t the long steady cruise part of an airliner suddenly be much more lighter and more efficient ?
These turbines would blend birds better than a mixmaster.
The article itself outlines the severe shortcomings of wind energy:
1. low capacity factor (20)
2. geographic factors (in the U.S, commercial-scale wind energy is only viable in the center of the country)
Plus, no matter how much power is produced in any given wind farm, it has to get to the ultimate user, and even though we have efficient means of transmission (e.g. high-voltage DC), there’s no chance in h*** you’ll ever see the tens of thousands of miles of transmission lines/towers needed built, given our NIMBY society.
So any excess of wind power will be stuck close to its point of generation, rather than flowing to the coasts where it is needed.
“The generator in a wind turbine produces alternating current (AC) electricity. Some turbines drive an AC/AC converter—which converts the AC to direct current (DC) with a rectifier and then back to AC with an inverter—in order to match the frequency and phase of the grid.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_turbine_design So it looks like we can use the existing grid. What concerns me the most is that most alternatives to gas, coal, and nuclear have a very low energy output per acre, only suitable where land is free or cheap.
High voltage DC (HVDC), already used in China, would be more efficient for long-distance transmission than traditional high-voltage AC.
But moving any significant fraction of wind power generated in the center of the U.S. to both coasts (where it’s needed) would require new transmission lines & towers – the current grids can’t handle the power.
Again, installing thousands (or tens of thousands) of miles of new, unsightly transmission lines is simply not going to happen here in the U.S.
Which is why most renewable utility projects are currently PV farms, sited relatively near areas of increasing electricity demand..
What you say is true: https://www.theenergycollective.com/roger_rethinker/204396/ac-versus-dc-powerlines . From the standpoint of reliability, I feel better with the simplicity of AC transformers vs the complexity of high power DC to DC converters.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/583591444/mineservertm-a-99-home-minecraft-server/comments
You have ignored the Kickstarter backers you made 30,000.00 off of…. please finish this project or prepare yourself for a class action from your backers. I am tired of asking, begging and hoping.
https://www.ijmsea.com/content/Arsenal-troja-2016-17-p-1613.aspx
https://www.ijmsea.com/content/Manchester-City-troja-2016-17-p-17138.aspx
https://www.ijmsea.com/content/Italien-troja-barn-p-32838.aspx
I’m the fourth to mention birds getting pulverized and I’d like to know how wind farms can ever succeed on a mass scale until this problem is solved. And wouldn’t propellers need regular cleaning to be efficient? I thought I was reading about an important insight of Jobs, but Jobs’ thought isn’t even blowing in the wind. It’s long lost. At least now I think I know that Orville and Wilbur did’t get the propeller wright after all.
Bill_in_NC, just above, gave perhaps the key reason (moving DC energy) why WFs on a big scale isn’t happening. That should be the first thing said in any WF discussion. The rest of us didn’t think deeply enough. We just thought.
I thought wind turbine design was constrained by law to minimize killing birds. Slow moving, few blades would seem to do this.
Every time we have a problem, we should just pass a law requiring it to be solved!
Wind turbines do kill birds but nothing like as many as cars, cats or glass windows in apartments. Google indirectly managed to even fry a few birds at Ivanpah until they stopped focussing the reflected beams to a circle in space around the collector when they were not in use – oops! Birds are pretty good at reproduction too – doubling time about one year whilst replacing Earth might take a few billion 🙂