This is the second of three columns relating to the recent story of Disney replacing 250 IT workers with foreign workers holding H-1B visas. Over the years I have written many columns about outsourcing (here) and the H-1B visa program in particular (here). Not wanting to just cover again that old material, this column looks at an important misconception that underlies the whole H-1B problem, then gives the unique view of a longtime reader of this column who has H-1B program experience.
First the misconception as laid out in a blog post shared with me by a reader. This blogger maintains that we wouldn’t be so bound to H-1Bs if we had better technical training programs in our schools. This is a popular theme with every recent Presidential administration and, while not explicitly incorrect, it isn’t implicitly correct, either. Schools can always be better but better schools aren’t necessarily limiting U.S. technical employment.
His argument, like that of Google and many other companies often mentioned as H-1B supporters, presupposes that there is a domestic IT labor shortage, but there isn’t. The United States right now has plenty of qualified workers to fill every available position. If there are indeed exceptional jobs that can’t be filled by ANY domestic applicant, there’s still the EB-2 visa program, which somehow doesn’t max-out every year like H-1B. How can that be if there’s a talent shortage? In truth, H-1B has always been unnecessary.
What the blogger misses, too, is the fact that the domestic IT workforce of today came into their jobs without the very educational programs he suggests are so important. There was no computer science major when I was an undergraduate, for example. For that matter, how many non-technical majors have been working for years as programmers? How many successful programmers never finished college or never attended college at all? I’m not arguing against education here, just pointing out that the IT job path isn’t always short and straight and the result is that the people who end up in those jobs are often more experienced, nuanced, and just plain interesting to work with. What’s wrong with that?
What’s wrong is politicians who can’t code or have never coded are arguing about how many technical workers can dance on the head of a pin, but they simply don’t know what they are talking about.
Now to the H-1B observations of my old friend and longtime reader who has been a CTO at several companies:
My first exposure to H1B was when I was consulting to multiple VC’s back in the dot-com era. Several VC’s I did work for, the portfolio managers would instruct/demand their portfolio companies hire H1B’s instead of Americans for ‘common’ jobs such as programmers, DBA’s (database administrators), network admins and even IT help desk people.
The reason of course was $$$. The H1B’s cost approx. 1/3rd or 1/4th the cost of the comparable American in same job.
I remember this one VC board meeting where the CEO of a portfolio company said the H1B’s in his company were complaining about their sub-standard pay, and one of the VC partners said, “Fuck them. Tell them if they don’t like it, we’ll toss their ass out, get another H1B to replace you and you’ll be on your way back to India.”
Fast forward to mid- to late-2000s:
I learned (while working) at (an unnamed public technology company) a LOT about H1B. We had contracted with several of the Indian firms such as Infosys, Wipro, Tata, Impetus, TechMahindra for ‘outsourcing’ and ‘offshoring’ ordinary tech work like programming, dba’s, documentation, etc.
The rates were very enticing to any corporation: we were paying anywhere from $15/hour to a *max* of $28/hour for H1B folks from those Indian firms (which btw, had set up US subsidiaries as ‘consulting/contractor firms’ so that American companies were hiring “American workers”).
The jobs we were hiring from TechMahindra, Wipro, etc., were jobs that American workers of same skillset and experience would be paid in the range of $80k-$170k (annual, which translates to $52-110/hour when you factor in benefits, medical, etc.). Quite a considerable difference in cost to the corporation.
At one point we had ~800 staff in India that worked for Infosys/Wipro/etc.) but had H1B ‘project managers’ onsite in the US from Infosys/Wipro/etc. to manage those armies of people in India (i.e. – deal with language issues, scheduling, etc.).
I got to know some of the H1B’s that were in the US working for us. I asked them, “How can you afford to live here on $15/hour?” The answer was they were living in group homes (e.g. – 8 guys would rent a townhouse and pool their money for food, etc.), plus had “no life” outside of work.
To which I’d ask, “why are you doing this?”. The answer was “it’s better than what we can get at home (India)” and they would manage to save some money. But more importantly, they were getting valuable experience for when they would return to India, they were highly sought after due to their experience in the US.
I know of one case for certain when our intellectual property (software source code) found its way into other companies, by pure coincidence of course, where the other companies were using the same Indian firms.
IMHO, the intent of the H1B program is valid and correct. The implementation and administration are horrible.
The politicians have no clue.
The government administrators who manage the H1B program, and especially the overseers who review the cases on whether (the visa applicant) really has skills that are unique and uncommon, are not educated or experienced enough to make such determinations.
I read some of the forms that were filled out: throw in a lot of techno babble and terms, and the government admin is NOT going to be able to challenge NOR understand it.
The politicians say they’ve addressed the holes by tightening-up the process. But if the first line of defense are the admins who review/determine if the H1B position really is unique and uncommon and they don’t know the difference between C++ and C#, we’ve accomplished nothing.
It is rare that any one outside our industry has a clue what is going on, let alone politicians. You are spot on: one big scam.
Entire world commerce is one big scam… everything should be produced locally to preserve local jobs
Everything is produced locally…on planet Earth, but we must get our energy from the Sun; at least that’s local to our solar system. 🙂
Yes, it’s all a big scam. Unfortunately the scammers won and the fight is over. You can erase the H1-B program and the jobs will not come back. Why? Because it is a global economy and companies can simply do their software dev and IT admin directly in India, or anywhere else that’s cheap. With teleconferencing and VPN, there is simply no reason to be local any more.
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So quit your whining and crack the books. Make yourself the best available at a skill that’s in demand. Live frugally and save, because you can’t count on a job lasting beyond today. I realized that and can now retire young. I only know 2 other people who did that. We are out of the rat race enjoying a beautiful summer with no pain in the neck bosses or co-workers to get in the way.
Re: “Live frugally and save”. Good luck with that. 🙂
Asians do it. You can too, Ronc.
It’s times like this when the government needs to directly ban this kind of crap. All developed nations need to ban together and refuse importing of product from developing nations, so that our labor laws are actually enforced. If they don’t want to produce here and follow our laws, don’t let them sell here either.
Developing nations can have their own trade union
The politicians are aware, and are OK with it.
Section 3 gets more specific about the sectors of the economy where member states will have to allow access to intra-corporate transferees, business visitors, contractual service suppliers, and independent professionals:
3. Subject to any terms, limitations, conditions and qualifications that the Party sets out in its Schedule, Parties shall allow entry and temporary stay of [contractual service suppliers and independent professionals3] for a minimum of [X%] of the following sectors/sub-sectors:
Professional services:
Accounting, auditing and bookkeeping services (CPC 862) Architectural services (CPC 8671) Engineering services (CPC 8672) Integrated engineering services (CPC 8673) Urban planning and landscape architectural services (CPC 8674) Medical & dental services (CPC 9312) Veterinary services (CPC 932) Services provided by midwives, nurses, physiotherapists and paramedical personnel (CPC 93191)
Computer and related services:
Consultancy services related to the installation of computer hardware (CPC 841) Software implementation services (CPC 842) Data processing services (CPC 843) Data base services (CPC 844) Other (CPC 845+849)
What is a “member state”? What is/are Party/Parties?
This is for the Trans Pacific Partnership trade agreement.
Wow! Another Free trade agreement or should I say Slave trade agreement. I guess it has to get more painful before it can get better. Our dollar will be worth nothing soon enough. One day we will be the cheap labor. I guess they need to start moving on to the next cheap available source. India currently is having an annual wage inflation rate of 20 to 30% while the US is experiencing the opposite. Don’t worry we only have about 5 more years before the Indians are on par with our wages. Then they will experience the same thing we are going thru. They call this the lost decade its more like the lost century. It will be ateast another 50 years of this before we have exhausted all cheap labor. Never mind they will have robots to replace us by then. We can only change this class war thru education. Trump and Sanders are creating a new energy in our upcoming presidential election. Its time we take back what our forefathers fought for. Keep on posting and writing. Only thru education can we win.
Yes, it’s a scam – and it always has been. I’m an American Citizen now but I came to the US on an H1-B visa back in the 70’s – not because I had any skills that American workers didn’t have but simply because I was cheaper and didn’t need any training. My company justified the need for me by placing some ad’s in the local newspapers with job requirements that were impossible to meet and then told the immigration/visa people that there had been no applicants – they had to hire a foreign worker.
Edmund, It is great you are confessing but that does not absolve you. You are “Party to a crime”.
Edmund is as much “party to a crime” as are Bangladeshi sweatshop workers party to their horrendous working conditions.
Excuse me? What a trite and pithy response. He’s not a ‘party to the crime’, he’s collateral damage. And he made the best of the situation by becoming a citizen and keeping his knowledge and talents on this shore. Geez, think before you post, huh?
@Roman – great analogy
The H1-b visa was established in 1990 with the passage of the Immigration Act of 1990, signed by GHW Bush and proposed by Ted Kennedy.
Maybe it is time to replace the government admin(s) who are reviewing the H1B applications with H1B applicants? if “The government administrators who manage the H1B program, and especially the overseers who review the cases on whether (the visa applicant) really has skills that are unique and uncommon, are not educated or experienced enough to make such determinations.” is true, then a H1B candidate should be available to fulfil that job position which is ‘unique and uncommon’. Furthermore, since they lack the ‘education or experience’ to handle the position, it is time to find H1B applicants to fill that position. My company has upwards of 5000 H1B/Indian consultants, many of which could fill the admin(s) position and would be cheaper than the government employees.
The ingredients of a real scam: it can keep itself going.
@m.d. wills,
Better idea, hire the professionals who have been displaced by the H-1B program to adjudicate the applications, including taking very good look at H-1B renewals.
It’s really easy to blame the ‘government admins’. Unfortunately Congress did not adequately fund the enforcement of H1-B regulations, because that would not be convenient for their clients and sponsors (the IT lobbyists). How many of these ‘admins’ do you think there are, and how many applications do you think they have to deal with, and how much do you think they get paid ?
Once you know these answers, you’ll also know why H1-B enforcement is a joke – nothing to do with ‘government’, everything to do with our bought-and-paid-for political system.
I want someone on Capitol Hill to say in front of cameras the reality of it all: there are plenty of American IT workers, but a shortage of American IT workers who will work for $30k a year. (Or even less, if you go to places like Manilla or Malaysia.)
If you strip away the illusion, maybe people will realize the bill of goods they’ve been sold.
In my experience, the average American would applaud that. Many Americans hate the idea of anyone else getting “their salary or above” except of course executives and celebrities who should be paid “what they’re worth.” Everyone else should get less than minimum wage. One example is a moderately popular meme spread on Facebook by underpaid emergency workers who get around $15/hour. Rather than arguing that they should be paid more, the meme argues that fast food workers shouldn’t be getting anything near $15/hour… which explains the hatred some have towards the UAW. Why should anyone but ME be fairly or even unfairly-but-adequately paid?
Yes, I’ve seen that meme, and that implication annoys me as well.
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Both should be paid more, period. The problem is that the people that meme targets can remember when $30k/year was really really good money and could take care of a family of four with $30k/year (or $15/hr full time). It’s like hearing people say “When I was a kid, all we needed were the Three R’s. Kids today don’t need any of that newfangled crap!” when a school district asks for more money.
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The ignorance can be breathtaking at times.
The real minimum wage is 0. Simply declaring that fast food workers should be making $15 an hour, the reality is that many of them would find themselves fired. Then there are many more unknown people who end up not being hired because it is too expensive.
Not a surprise that this is when these food making robots are showing up.
I think it depends on what you call “too expensive”. Too expensive to whom? When I read about the corporate profits that McDonalds pulls down and realize that they could not only afford the wage increase but that they’d have a much more gruntled workforce if they got paid quite a bit more, I find the rumors of corporate disaster hard to fathom. Besides, a gruntled workforce sells more and gets more repeat business than a workforce ruled by fear and has a lousy attitude.
So you think individual stores can afford another $100k in salary?
Considering the “service” I get for the current pay, I’d say we’re getting exactly what we’re paying for in salaries. Want better service? Pay more so you can get better people.
Exactly. So if you increase the minimum wage, the people currently working who aren’t as good are out of a job.
Senator Jeff Sessions made several remarks in that vein:
https://www.sessions.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2014/7/sessions-remarks-on-tech-layoffs-and-how-the-h-1b-visa-displaces-american-workers
>$30K
Come to Arkansas, Mississippi, or Alabama, and you’d have people lined up around the block to interview for that much money.
Not everyone lives in San Francisco or New York City.
But not everyone wants to live in the cesspool that is Alabama/Mississippi/Arkansas
“The politicians have no clue.” That is incorrect. They have laserlike focus (as well as an equally intense studied indifference) to everything to which they are instructed by their corporate donors.
You have hit the nail on the head.
Every time you hear about a “Democratic” politician holding a fund-raiser in Silicon Valley or Redmond, you know what the result will be.
You’re labouring under the delusion that party colours have anything to do with … well, anything.
It has something to do with it, just not everything. Those from outside the US may have had a different experience in their own country. (Here, it’s “color” and “labor”)
Just a couple of notes about the numbers in the included image from Bay Area News:
1) it should be seen in light of total employees. E.g., Oracle’s 800 compared to the total 135,000 workforce. I’m not sure what percentage of that is in the United States, but it is pretty high, so the H1-B count is certainly less than 1/10 of a percent.
2) a significant portion of the H1-Bs were not hired by those companies directly but rather acquired because the company acquired a smaller company that originally hired them.
Now that may not be true for other companies (I’m aware Microsoft DOES do a lot of its own H1-B hiring, and is one of the key lobbyists for increasing the cap), but as in all things, raw numbers can be misleading.
That is just for one year, so the number for Oracle could be six times as high.
@Joe Shelby – first, what difference does it make if ORCL’s percentage of H1B’s is only 0.001 of its workforce? It’s still fact they are the 10th largest holder of H1B’s.
To your 2nd point, do you realize that of the top-10 that Cringely listed from Bay Area News Group, that 7 of the 10 are Indian companies?
So what if 7 of 10 are Indian companies?? Are you saying it would be OK if 7 of 10 are British companies?
The point being that they’re Indian companies masquerading as American companies leveraging a loophole in the program to bring in H1B’s to farm out to American companies. They are NOT the American companies as the H1B program was intended for American society to bring in unique and specialized skilled people.
The more relevant comparison, is how many temporary foreign workers (H-1B, L-1, OPT, O-1) are granted work authorization, in comparison to employment level growth in the same occupation? In good economic times, IT employment growth is 60 to 80 percent temporary foreign workers.
Excellent post and yes, it’s all about the money. Jiminator’s right, the pols know what’s happening but they’re bought and paid for by the people gaming the system so they keep quiet about scandals like the H-1B in order to get reelected.
While visiting a Maker Faire in my area last week I happened upon a Cognizant booth staffed entirely by 30-something Indians. While they showed my daughter how to make a windsock out of duct-tape, another of their number told me about his background and their difficulty being separated from their family back home and why it is still a better choice than living in India.
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As I listened to the man talk the term “Digital Sharecroppers” came unbidden to mind. But this is worse than sharecropping because an H-1B worker can’t switch employers.
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What Cognizant and the rest of the H-1B abusers are doing is exploiting the promise/hope of US Citizenship while suppressing near-term wages (and the value of the citizenship they use as a lure), with indentured servants.
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Cringely is right in saying the E2-B program is an appropriate alternative. Another good option would be the Entrepreneur Visa. I say trade an Entrepreneur Visa program which creates new jobs in exchange for killing the H-1B visa which only suppresses wages and supports corporate dinosaurs trying to cut their bottom line rather than actually innovating.
There is already the E visa for entrepreneurs. All you need is $40k to invest and you can bring your spouse. Unlimited renewals.
Here is an important test everyone can do. Most USA states have an engineering program in at least one of their universities. Seek out the Dean or administrator of that program and ask him or her the following questions:
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How many of your students had jobs before they graduated?
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Of the students who did not have jobs, how long after they graduated did it take them to find a job? How many students never found a job?
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How many of your graduates are NOT working in engineering jobs, or are working well below their level of education?
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Be prepared to be shocked by the answers you get. Remember on the scale of math, science, and technology education these students are the best of the best in our country — and they can’t find work. If you go to the computer science and information systems departments you’ll find a similar and usually worse story.
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What’s the purpose of having more and better math, science, technology, and programming education when you won’t hire your graduating college students?
I’m not surprised.
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Many corporations have sliced off the steady chain of engineers being able to get in on the ground floor of a company and instead outsourced work. What ends up happening is that the people in the corporation who are left behind are managers, not engineers, and they don’t have replacements/new blood in the chain to be their eventual replacement when they retire. Even outsourced personnel, those who haven’t been replaced by lower cost overseas workers, don’t have new blood in the pipeline either. When they retire, the position is simply eliminated.
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We eat our own comes to mind.
Most politicians ARE clueless when it comes to IT. However most of them DO understand the issue since understanding the issue doesn’t require tech knowledge. The only thing needed here is a combination of campaign finance reform and TERM LIMITS. Oh, and breaking the strangle hold of the two-party system by forcing run-offs when nobody has greater than 50% of the votes would actually fix a huge number of problems. Our entire national government is basically in a halt-and-catch-fire scenario.
Bingo. Reform campaign finance, repeal Citizens United and institute term limits for Congress and the Supreme Court. Start with voting out all Politicians of all parties who are dazzled by corporate elite $incluence$ and violate their fiduciary responsibility to represent we the people.
How would allowing the government to ban ads and books and movies critical of a politician fix the problem?
Who is proposing such a radical violation of free speech?
Bob, as per my experience, another trick around offshore hiring and the outsourcing of tech staff is this: take a CV that deserves a good amount of money and use it to justify a high salary, now pay the guy (possibly over 40 or 50 years old) a fraction of the sum, charge the customer with it, and pay the guy a fraction of the “cost”, now where goes the difference ? To the pocket of the midrange manager that requested the resource (or even share half and half with the outsourcing company that provides the human resource).
Pretty business, very usual in Argentina, by many well known corporations (can name them in private if you’re interested).
How can I prove the felony ? By viewing at the projects. Invented/artificial/none-sense jobs.
I think your commenter is clueless about the government side of things. Declaring that they don’t understand the subject is just a guess on his part. More likely, anytime you have regulation of an industry, the regulating body tends to get captured by the regulated industry.
Cringely –
You should have pointed out that of the top-10 companies with H1B’s that you cited from Bay Area News Group, that 7 of the 10 are Indian companies, albeit probably their US subsidiaries as that quote from your CTO buddy.
What a farce:
Indian companies that set up US subsidiaries to hire H1B’s that provide cheap outsourced labor to American corporations.
>How can you afford to live on $15 an hour?
H1B is just a small number of people each year. The regular immigration levels lower wages even more, and even more is planned with amnesty. $15 an hour is a good salary.
Some other things they probably didn’t tell your programmer. If the company is reimbursing for food, they will get larger bills and pocket cash.
It’s always been a scam, but no one outside of IT is interested. I remember going through this in the early 2000s. Outside IT no one cared a bit. There was some reporting occassionally in tech circles (such as Bob’s column), but outside of that? Not much. The low wage manufacturing jobs went offshore a long time ago and no one in IT paid much attention and we were busy writing code to replace workers with automation. It’s no wonder no one really cares about the same thing happening to IT workers. I haven’t seen anything written that I didn’t experience ten years ao even now. It’s not new. Disney just happens to have an image of a wholesome American company.
One question if you don’t mind because I found the discussion interesting but I’m a little confused.
I attended a statistics Ph.D program in the U.S ( back in the late 90’s ) where many of the students were from foreign countries and graduated and obtained jobs. ( I assume with H1B’s. Unless there’s some other kind of visa. I know they weren’t citizens ). I also know that the salaries of these people was not less than an american student with the same credentials. So, where do these mentioned 30K salaries come from ? As far as I know, the salaries of fresh foreign graduate students from american universities is not lower. Thanks for clarification.
@Mark Leeds – understand how you can be wondering about your old colleagues getting employed at market rates whereas Cringely’s H1B example of $30k. He mentions the EB-2 visa program, which is meant for holders of advanced degrees (like your former classmates), which is one very real and straightforward possibility:
https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/permanent-workers/employment-based-immigration-second-preference-eb-2
EB-2 is an immigrant visa, and is not a practical choice for over 75% of graduate students who get Masters or Doctoral degrees from US universities (even from the top ones like MIT or Stanford). Since immigration quotas put a cap on applications from an individual country (I believe it’s 7% of all applications in a given year), and given that most of these grad students are Indians or Chinese (in my CS graduate class in the 2000s, they made up about 75%), there is no way for any of these students to immediately apply for an EB2 visa and get it in time for the employment to start. In fact, these days the waiting time is about a decade, given he backlogs from previous years (remember that family members of current immigrants get preference, so that eats up a lot of green cards that would otherwise go to to these students who wish to work in the US.) So the only way for these students to work in the US is to have their employers sponsor them for H-1Bs, and while they work, also apply for an EB-2. That effectively ties the employee to the company for a few years until their EB2 application clears.
Depending on your point of view, this could be a bug or a feature. For employers who want good workers (not necessarily cheap ones, that’s not the motivation here) who won’ jump ship when they see a good opportunity, this scheme gives them golden handcuffs to tie their employees with. For anti-immigrant people in the US who dislike the idea of more immigration from the two most populous Asian countries, these quotas pose what they hope will be a deterrent to prospective immigrants; they will adamantly oppose increase in quotas. A more sane policy would take cognizance of what the countries of origin of most prospective immigrants who are already somewhat assimilated in the US and who already have job offers (thereby not burdening the taxpayer) are, but I think too many interest groups (anti-immigrants, but also lefties and unionists) are opposed to updating immigrant visa quotas on that basis.
This is exactly the confusion and I think it was deliberately done to get cheap H-1B labor. The H-1B system was meant to bring the “best and brigtest” and indeed many good students like you got to work here. But then companies realized they copuld piggyback on this system and bring in cheap labor using all kinds of scams (I put it that way) – STEM shortage being the chief one!! For a while, nobody knew what was happening.. Now, everyone knows how the system has been misused…
Yes, but the real KEY here is forced runoffs. Without this you will always have “spoilers” and a possibility of the wrong person winning and a lot of wasted votes. . We need a less corporate-friendly party and soon. A constitutional convention is at least a century overdue.
As a graduate student now, there is also OPT for STEM fields that allow you to work for 29 months without a change in visa status(F1). If you are not in STEM fields, it is 12 months.
This isn’t just about money, though the money is a big part of it, it is also about power.
When American workers are being abused, there is at least the possibility that they can move on to some other company where hopefully things are better. The more in-demand their skills the easier it will be to move. H1-B’s are basically indentured servants, low wages, excessive unpaid overtime, often performing tasks that are way outside their job description for obnoxious management. If they don’t like it they are told they can go home.
The H-1b Visa is more than a big scam, it is today’s “Big Lie”.
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”
Joseph Goebbels
https://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/holoprelude/goebbels.html
Checkout the website: http://livingwage.mit.edu/
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First it is reprehensible for a firm to be paying near minimum living wage rates for highly educated talent. If you need well educated, skilled talent for your business you should pay them a competitive market wage. This is discrimination in multiple ways. This violates the spirit of a century of labor laws. Firms are abusing an immigration law and then abusing their immigrant workforce. There are so many things morally and ethically wrong with this picture. The damage to the economy and job market is enormous. It is amazing our congress isn’t appalled. This is the stuff that can ruin a political career.
What a ridiculous site. Are workers dying? If not, then they are living. If it is too low a wage for them to live there then they will move, or they will demand more money. Or perhaps they will move and their previous employer will be forced to pay more for workers. Or maybe they go out of business, but the remaining businesses would then charge more to pay more.
Perhaps they should look at why costs are so high. I notice the site is on the mit.edu domain. Perhaps Cambridge should allow all those house owners to add a few more floors to their building, increasing the number of available apartments, rather than having people pay $1500 for low quality apartments.
I worked for IBM GBS for over 7 years. I know IBM paid onshore resources (H1b/L1 holders) decent US wage so I’m a little confused who you spoke with. I know for a fact that IBM onshore resources made between 80-85k in the west coast and 75-80k in the east coast. These were entry level .NET developers (in IBM’s terms, Band 6 IT Specialists from IBM India). This was back in 2010 or so and there was no wage difference between H1b and L1 visa holders. The wage depended on onshore resource’s location and his/her band level. There were 3 location levels, and I’m guessing the west coast fell into the expensive market while the east coast fell into less expensive market.
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The onshore resources from IBM were billed at competitive rates. Band 6 onshore resources (H1b/L1 holders) billed between $90-120 an hour, while offshore resources (folks in India) billed $20-50 an hour. Again, these are for entry level .NET programmers.
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One more thing…. while working at IBM, I rarely saw H1b visa holders. Almost all of the onshore resources were L1a/L1b visa holders. From what I gathered, the H1b visa holders could easily leave the company and work for someone else. For H1b visa holders, IBM India had a penalty for leaving IBM while working in the US, which was 7k. Then they raised it to 11k in 2011 or 2012.
@Ex IBMer – first, if IBM had H1B’s as entry level .Net developers, that is a *violation* of the H1B program in itself. The H1B program purpose is to bring unique and unavailable skills to the US. Entry level .Net developers does not meet that criteria in any sense.
You also state that when you worked at IBM, you rarely saw H1B’s. If that’s the case, where do you get your data about IBM and H1B?
You are confusing the H-1B with the O-1 (which requires exceptional skills) or EB-2/EB-3 which requires a labor market test to determine the unavailability of US (citizen or permanent resident alien) workers.
An H-1B requires neither.
I am not confusing the H1B program. It’s purpose is the importation of people with unique skills or as the government states, a ‘specialty’ skill. An entry level .Net developer is not a specialty skill since even high school kids today learn .Net in school if they take a computer programming class.
You benefited from the H1B program personally. If you actually had unique and special skills, great. The program worked as it was intended. If you didn’t, then you are a prime example of what’s wrong with the program.
While working at IBM, I ran into at least one or two H1b holders in each of my projects. However, they were a small minority compared to the sea of L1 visa holders you run into.
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IBM had no problem convincing its clients that these entry level programmers are highly skilled coding ninjas. I assume convincing our government to issue H1b visas is a much easier task.
Why is Bob focusing on H1B exclusive of other visas, like L1?
Bullshit. I worked 16 years in GTS. A band 6 is a 55k a year position. You are citing band 8 wages. Blended billing rates for a mix of band 8 & 9 is 75 an hour. No.net code monkey is pulling those wages or being billed at that without absolute billing corruption.
I watched as state of Texas staff trained their replacement and were replaced with h1b, and we all saw what happened there. The stories I could tell about the dbas that got shipped over.
Back in February I placed a tech support call that was routed to India and the issue took quite a while to fix so there time for idle chatter. The person I was talking to mentioned his uncle had a work arrangement where he would travel the US and work for a period of time and then return to India for a short while and then back to the US. I did not ask how, but maybe is was a temporary work visa or more likely the companies were just skirting the law got get cheap labor into the US market. He clearly stated there were limitations on length, but they had never been enforced and that his uncle was here specifically to do long-term work that replaced US workers or avoided using them. His uncle has been doing this for several years and he (the tech support person) was under of the belief that the US did not have enough qualified workers.
The L visa allows this.
RE: “there’s still the EB-2 visa program, which somehow doesn’t max-out every year like H-1B.”
Actually EB-2 program is maxed-out for 12+ years in advanced for citizens of certain countries (India, China, and Philippines).
But the EB-2 program is way under limits for every other country. Who says all the good technical workers are Indian? There are good graduates everywhere (or good non-graduates, since less than 50 percent of IBM’s Indian workers, for example, even have undergraduate degrees). The essence of both H-1B and EB-2 are that they are supposed to apply to INDIVIDUAL WORKERS. Need a good programmer? I know a bunch in Serbia, Colombia, or Argentina, but the Indian companies don’t want to hire there.
But the EB-2 program is way under limits for every other country. Who says all the good technical workers are Indian?
Definitely all the good technical workers aren’t Indian. But isn’t it possible that a substantial percentage of foreign workers seeking IT jobs in the US are Indian? There may well be very many talented Serbian, Colombian, and Argentinian programmers, but if they are not seeking jobs in the US or if there aren’t too many of them in numbers, then what is to be done? In my experience, there are large numbers of Eastern Europeans working on H1B visas in top US software companies; presumably they want to work in the US and get sponsored for work visas. If the EB-2 quotas for those countries still don’t get met, then shouldn’t one reach the conclusion that the quotas are out of whack? Unless it is your view that it is a bad thing for a preponderance of Indians to obtain employment-based immigration status in the US, even through the most fair-minded and transparent process.
Why do Indians and Indian companies dominate the foreign-worker IT job market in the US? There’s really no conspiracy. It was both official policy in India to strengthen and market India’s IT capabilities, and social preference among the middle class since the 80s to get trained in IT fields for IT jobs. Not to mention that anyone in India who gets a certified IT education is proficient in English (though their dialects and accent are mocked by Americans who dislike the whole H-B/outsourcing scenario). This set of developments is unique to India, which is why there are so many IT workers here, many of whom seek jobs in the US (because the demand for their services in India itself is very low.) Russia may (and does) produce brilliant programmers, but how many of them are there, and how many of them can claim to speak English?
I understand your anger at the H-1B program, and I share much of it (as an Indian who went to grad school in the US, loved the country, but eventually headed back to India because I had ethical and practical issues with this visa program and the immigration process). But I really wish that you, as a journalist, would try to examine different perspectives, not just those of the deserving Americans who get cheated out of career, but also of the prospective job seekers from India. Neither of these groups operates independently in a vacuum.
I am beneficiary of a work visa (not H1B) myself so I can’t complain, but I cannot agree more. To be fair, companies like Microsoft and Amazon do not fall in the cheap labor bucket as they pay H1Bs competitive salary and have a very high bar for hires.
A few years back (in Australia) I decided to get a job in U.S. so sent out a couple of CVs. I got an interview with a dodgy Indian consulting firm in Atlanta. First thing in the interview started with asking me if I have no problem with them using a fake resume with fake job experiences for me! They later told me that first 3 month of the job is considered training and they would pay $7/hr and give me accommodation in a room shared with 5 others!!!
Needless to say that I did not accept their offer! A few months later I got an email from a MS recruiter and the rest is history. Obviously MS experience and offering was decent.
I agree entirely that the H1-B visa program as currently implemented is a complete scam. I work in an organization that currently has over 100 H1-B workers. Not a single one was hired for a unique skill set that was locally unavailable. All of them make far less that US-based workers. Additionally, most are not employees of the company that I work at, but are rather employees of popular India-based outsourcing firms like INFOSYS. This means, that unlike actual employees, they can be terminated at anytime without cause. Also my organization has no related costs like medical, UI for these contractors. And clearly they will feel less guilt about terminating these people based on business whims – which is something that they do all the time.
Slight correction: in the US, in a ‘right to work’ state – employees can be fired
at any time too!
“Right-to-work laws do not aim to provide general guarantee of employment to people seeking work, but rather are a government regulation of the contractual agreements between employers and labor unions that prevents them from excluding non-union workers, or requiring employees to pay a fee to unions that have negotiated the labor contract all the employees work under.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law
Agreed… Companies have completely misued the system to drive down wages using all kinds of scams: STEM shortage being the chief one. In the early 2000s, nobody knew or cared about the truth, anyway the economy was booming and the system was exploited to the hilt. After the great recession, everyone knows that the STEM shortage is a myth and was propagated to bring in H-1B…. Time to abolish the system and get local people to work in these areas which are high paying…
As an H1-B (not IT industry) my employer paid H1-B same as their other workers , the program can work (I’m now a US citizen). The one problem is enforcement I was under the impression that the employer when sponsoring you is guaranteeing that they will pay the comparable rate. So (if thats in fact true) maybe some legal action would help (oh dear no unions in america nowadays)
H1B Episode 39 H1B SCAM
https://youtu.be/gXMDfq51WPk
Sour grapes?
https://www.facebook.com/H1BIIBCB
I wrote everything here about my journey of life from India to America etc.
[…] Robert X. Cringely, published June 16, […]
The unique skill that most non USA workers have is an intense work ethic and desire to better themselves and build a better future in this land of opportunity. Many USA born people lack that vital drive. Personally I arrived in New York on a J visa in 1968 with $75 in my pocket. I worked two jobs, one as a dishwasher at $2 per hour but still managed to save $100 per week. I saved enough to cover my Medical school costs for the following year. On graduation in 1970 I had offers of two internships in New York hospitals but was not able to get a visa until 1971. I completed my surgical residency and became a permanent resident. I had no problem finding a job in a small town where I was on call 24/7. Most Americans refuse such work conditions. I made enough to retire at 53 and now manage my investments. I pay my Latino gardener $20 per hour to do the work that I cannot find US born people willing or able to do……I guess they lack the unique skills. Get off your asses Americans and quit whining.
If Americans are soo lazy, why is this country so much better than the one you left?
I noticed he referred to the US as “the land of opportunity”. Perhaps his own country doesn’t offer the opportunity for those willing to do hard work, to achieve success.
Superb question and probably asked every year since Columbus found this country accidently and by various folks like you and me questioning next set of immigrants.
Hum interesting comment from a Doctor that probably makes a half a million a year?
Landscaping work, gardening, housekeeping, nannies, janitor, farm laborer – all of these are jobs where the majority are Americans working. There are no jobs that Americans won’t do. The complaint really just means that they won’t do them for the low wages that people from other countries are willing to do them.
You’re right! Those lazy Americans won’t maintain the landscaping of your house for $20/hr. You’re the model of a hardworking individual.
Oh wait.
You stopped working for early retirement, and you’re too lazy to even do the gardening work for your own house. Now why is it again that you claim to be hardworking when you won’t even do your own gardening (that you say others are lazy for not doing).
Re: “You stopped working for early retirement”, actually he also said he “managed his investments”. That could be a more painful and boring job than he had before retirement, especially now that it’s uncertain if any investment will pan out. Even floor traders are going out of business: https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0511/the-death-of-the-trading-floor.aspx . Successful investing is all about seeing opportunities before others, but now computers do that painstakingly well.
I get calls all the time with offers from these outsourcing companies and they lead with how cheap they are then act dumbfounded when I tell them I have no interest in hiring outside the country. H1B is one scam and frankly should be eliminated and I’ll vote for the guy with the guts to kill it.
Another scam is the hiring of “Contractors” as opposed to regular employees and Tech is horrible about abusing the people who do the work. The worst part is that in the old days the contractors were there for short term projects and would be let go if things got tight. Now the game is to hire the contractors for regular operations and lay off the employees. Frankly we need a national corporate shaming for the bad apples.
Given all the costs that the government has added for employees, hiring contractors is very prudent. Under ObamaCare, you could end up having to pay an extra $2000 per employee for not providing health care, or even more if you do provide health insurance. And if you provide inferior quality health insurance the fine is $30000 per employee, 15 times as much as if you just don’t offer any insurance.
Lee,
America is better because it is the land of opportunity. Opportunities abound because Americans are partly lazy but even more so are unwilling to do the hard work that it takes to succeed. It is harder for us to compete in our own countries because we compete with other”driven” people. I consider my self an American even if I cannot vote. I think we should outsource for Politicians then one might see real progress in this great country.
Again great comment coming from someone who works in probably the most powerful union shop there is? A closed system that helps contribute to the high cost of health care. Most developed countries pay about a third less. Hummm
As I said in the previous blog post, H1B is a red herring.
the real issue is the ‘race to the bottom’ , moving ‘expensive’ US/European jobs
offshore. The premise is that the Western economies will continue to buy/support
this model, but eventually they will lose their purchasing power and the offshore
‘consumer’ economies are not big enough to replace them.
At least H1-B live and work in the West and pay {some} taxes and buy stuff here.
This is hilarious
I asked them, “How can you afford to live here on $15/hour?”
But many people in the US only get $7.45 / hour – how can WE afford to live here?
When I was an H1-B, back in 1983, we could claim an astronomical number of deductions
for e.g. rent, food, cleaning, transportation, so I lived quite well on what I earned.
I paid income tax and FICA, but I had about 16 deductions – so not as much tax as a US
employee.
As someone who worked through the H1B system and is now a US Citizen, I can say that it’s a decent program when executed properly.
H1Bs are temporary high-skilled workers who are hired when domestic workers are unavailable and can also get sponsored to become permanent US residents if the company is still unable to find domestic workers after a few years.
In my case, I had to relocate to a small town in Kentucky for the job where (at the time) no American tech worker was willing to move to. I was essentially hired out of frustration on part of the hiring manager. I had other job offers but decided to go with that company because of it was a reputed (Fortune 500) company.
That said, numerous issues plague the program:
1. I noticed my fellow H1B co-workers who were Indian were paid much lower than I was. (I’m not Indian and I was paid market-rate). I’m not sure why but it seems companies think Indian workers are more desperate and will take less money.
2. H1B workers have absolutely no power. Your boss/company really does OWN you. You have little room for negotiating raises/work environment/responsibilities/schedule etc. If your boss doesn’t like you, you might end up in legal limbo in a few years.
3. H1B workers are constantly worried about the company’s bottom line/future/decisions. It’s very difficult to change jobs and a layoff/termination automatically invalidates the visa. Even if a H1B worker manages to switch jobs, the time limit on the visa doesn’t reset and the new working conditions might actually be worse than previous company.
This lack of mobility also has a dampening effect on the H1B worker’s career. Six years is a long time in the tech industry and H1B workers usually end up stuck with old technological stacks because they were unable to move on to jobs with better opportunities.
4. Many companies bring H1B workers on board with promises of sponsoring a green card knowing fully well that they have no intention of ever doing so. Some companies tell H1B workers that they have filed an LCA or are working on some other step without actually doing anything. Reason: It costs money.
5. Some companies ONLY hire H1Bs even if domestic workers are available. This is because they can get away with paying SOME H1B workers lower wages and H1B workers are more easily controlled.
Also, some unscrupulous managers use the H1B system to hire their friends and relatives who are absolutely unqualified for the job.
I can’t prove it, but I’m sure their is a shadow market where some managers demand BRIBES from H1B applicants in illegal pay-for-play hiring schemes.
6. H1B workers have been brought in by companies (like the Disney case) to replace American workers. Sometimes, the domestic workers are forced to train their replacements before being laid off. This has caused a lot of resentment towards H1B workers.
7. The Indian “Consultancy” companies: Tata, Wipro, Cognizant, etc. — Too much to talk about. These companies are the worst offenders and chronic abusers of the H1B system. I’d implore both American workers and H1B applicants to stay away from any company that has a large swath of H1B workers — read: INDIAN
[…] by BattlestarPotemkin [link] […]
I came as an H1B employee during the Y2k era as they need a lot of programmers like. But what’s happening now is different. They lay-off people for H1B workers which is wrong. Unemployment in the US worsens because of this. This started when Clinton moved factories to China.
Seems like there would be an easy solution to look through IRS records and compare actual salary to what is claimed on the applications. They can pull visas allotments for companies found in violation.
They could also do this with regular immigration applications as well.
The H1B program is even worse than that, as now the spouse of H1Bs are being given EAD work authorization.
I’ve wondered if this will double the number of H1-b workers…will Wipro/Tata make their workers get ‘gay’ married in order to get 2 workers per visa??
So that’s all there is to it? 29000 Indians/Asians legally working in US IT industry?
Do you know there are 500,000 Americans working in Philippines? Should we revoke their visas and send them home?
It’s a global economy, we send dollars your way when we consume American fast food, entertainment and apparel. India and China are your biggest markets. Asia overall, is more valuable to US companies than domestic market. The hypocrisy in this article is incredible.
Talk about illegal residents, income inequality, executive pay but this article is rather prejudiced and protectionist. You’ve never worked outside US, have you?
Did the 500,000 Americans replace 500,000 Filipinos? Did the Americans take a fraction of the pay that the jobs pay normally to Filipinos? If answer is no, you are comparing apples and oranges.
That is the number issued per year. H1B is 65000 per year, times 6 years that the visa is valid.
I’m in agreement there isn’t a tech shortage and that H1B Workers are routinely abused however it’s at odds that H1Bs are paid less than their American counterparts. The US dictates what H1B must be paid.
Employers must attest to the Department of Labor that they will pay wages to the H-1B nonimmigrant workers that are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question, or the prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment – whichever is greater.
Also, http://h1bdata.info/
Companies play lose and fast with job titles.
When it comes to enforcement, that is non existent in all phases of employment. I know from my own personal experience that for instance disability and workers rights don’t come into play anymore. I tend to think it is because in an effort to play nice with employers, funding is cut to the bone so if you don’t conform to the laws, who is going to stop you? I lost a good paying job with a local governmental agency because I broke my leg. And yes it was an IT job, since I have made progressively less money. Mind you I’m a grey beard so this fight will soon be left to others. But keep in mind market forces no longer have anything to do with our economy? This is just one more thing invented to make some rich people just a little more money. In economics its called rents.
Spot on correct article. Of course H1-B is all about politics. Let business get whatever cheap labor they can find, wherever they find it. The “skills gap” is a myth, but politicians will preach it as the convenient excuse for H1-B. The reality is exactly as Bob described. Unfortunately nothing will change as our politicians accept donations from businessman who complain about not being able to find “qualified” workers.
if companies had to pay $50k per year to the US government for the right to sponsor candidates, that would probably be a big step in the right direction. Help close the revenue gap, prove that the labor is valued.
What about the tens of thousands of H-1Bs that are in non-engineering functions? One might be able to make the case that we don’t graduate enough people from STEM programs to fill engineering roles, but that’s certainly not the case for other disciplines. Walk the campus of any tech company and there are an amazing number of H-1B employees in Finance, HR, Marketing and other non-technical/non-engineering roles. Add to that the fact that these companies are hyper focused on improving their diversity numbers, and most female hires end up in non-engineering roles, and you end up with double discrimination for a lot of well-qualified Americans who get passed over for these non-engineering roles.
L-1 visa is a much bigger problem.
This is only a problem because H1B holders are indentured to their sponsors. If you made H1Bs portable across companies and jobs, so a visa holder who felt underpaid could just go to a different company that paid better, the economic disparity would be eliminated, as would the demand for H1Bs. This is a simple market-driven fix that should have broad appeal to anyone not running a company that’s gaming the current system.
I have been beating that drum for years. The only thing I have against H1Bs is that they’re destroying the baseline salaries in the American IT market. On an individual level they are no better or worse than any shlub American, but what they’ve done to American IT is a big contributor to the collapse of the middle class. Let them move around and they’ll be earning more immediately, which will benefit me, an American IT worker, by raising the bar on “I can get a guy for $38k” to something a lot more livable. It would be better to just drop the program, but if that’s not possible then we can start by dropping the value of the program to those “American” companies exploiting it the most and improving the lives of those employees it affects, foreign and domestic.
H-1B is not an IT Visa and many other fields benefit from this Visa program. I’m on a NAFTA Visa (the TN) and work in a boutique area of international finance, having gained my experience and training while working around the globe. The colleagues on my team are based overseas. Yet, I’m unable to secure an H-1B, even with my employer’s sponsorship. So, while I can continue to reside in the USA on the TN, I do not have a path to permanent residency, or, for that matter, citizenship. I expect that I am not alone in this dilemna. The entire immigration system in this country is broken, except perhaps for the Diversity Visa program which seems to somehow have the ability to screen out multiple applications for the same individual. Why isn’t H-1B able to do the same. They tell us it is a random lottery computerized selection process!
All that needs to happen is companies prove that they are paying the prevailing wage to those H-1B applicants. Then see how fast they suddenly don’t need any?
Although I am sure that many H1-B employees are underpaid and used to replace American workers, my personal experience is the opposite. My wife (Chinese) and her cousin, both worked off of an H1-B visas, as well as a half-dozen or so of their classmates that graduated college in the U.S. at the same time as I did. They were all very well compensated under the H1-B system, with the only real expectation that they would reimburse their employer the costs of the application and processing, which amounted to a few thousand dollars.
The fear directed at H1-B hiring appears to me to be nothing more than thinly disguised xenophobia, a way to legitimize racism.
Did you read Bob’s or any of the other news reports about what happened at Disney? Americans lost their jobs and were replaced by H1B’s from India (at considerably less money) that the Disney employees had to train. If you call that xenophobia, fine. You better hope that someday YOU aren’t replaced by an H1B.
I’m not going to directly question your wife’s experience, but I’ll offer my own.
We had an H1B at my last company and took advantage of him horribly. Who’s working this weekend? Satnam. What about July 4th? Satnam. Who is doing the updates Tuesday night? Satnam. It’s 8:00am, time for the staff meeting Satnam. Time for a raise? Not so fast. Training? Nope. Job change? You wish.
I have been in IT for decades and I have no issue working with any group of people as a whole. I’ll raise an eyebrow if an individual is lazy or incompetent, but my experience with H1B folks is that they are no better or worse than any other group of people, save for their tolerance for terrible pay. If your wife showed up in the US with a fresh sheepskin and a bag of cool skills then bully for here. But if she came into an entry-level ETL developer job at a fraction of the market rate with little more than a year’s training then I’ll tell the both of you I resent her presence and the damage she’s done to my economy.
Notice the TPA which is being voted on in Congress, perhaps as soon as tomorrow. This gives fast track authority, guaranteeing an up or down vote without amendment for any trade deals negotiated in the next six years. The deals being talked about include a Trade in Services Agreement, with a free market for labor to move around various countries. So the H1B program is going to increase substantially.
TPA passed the House, but it has to go back to the Senate, because Democrats refused to support the companion piece that gave assistance to people who lose their jobs to free trade, as a strategic move to sink the bill.
What happened at Disney has a term — “Body-shopping”. It is not limited to just IT positions. I’ve seen this done in other industries. Printing and Publishing to name one. A large U.S. newspaper did this to entire floors in their building. The people that were trained as graphic artists that produced advertising were body-shopped. They were told they were losing their jobs and a bunch of H1-B’s were brought in to do their work; after being trained of course.
.
This is what happens when workers lose their bargaining power. Working people have no say in how companies are run. Investment bankers call all the shots. Squeeze out every penny from a company, take the money and run. That’s the new “business” model for America.
.
We have allowed our greed and selfishness to snuff out human decency and any thought of the common good.
the Chinese don’t give their jobs to the Indians, and the Indians don’t give their jobs to the Chinese, does this make them xenophobic ?
To expose and correct this scam, prose that companies who hire H1-B workers pay as much as they would have payed for a local worker – the difference with what the worker gets should go to the education program. If the H1-B worker has indeed unique skills, this money can be used to extend or upgrade the education programs in order to correct the shortage. If he is hired just because it is cheaper, this will kill that motive. Then let’s see what arguments will be brought up against this proposal.
[…] the H-1B program. In a post on his blog, longtime tech observer and consultant Robert X Cringely labels the H-1B program as “a scam” and says the argument that it’s necessary due to a shortage of […]
I really don’t care if companies send work oversea but my father did not die in Korea so a bunch of foreigners could come take our jobs on our soil. I will never ever go to Disney again and I an 60 minutes away. Shame on all companies who spit in the faces of all who sacrificed for this country. SHAME ON YOU!
Disney Backed Down on this layoff.
https://www.computerworld.com/article/2934978/it-outsourcing/in-a-turnabout-disney-abc-tv-cancels-plans-to-outsource-it-jobs.html
Very interesting. The employees were notified on May 28th, the reversal happened on June 11th, which was reported by Computerworld on June 12th, and Bob’s column about the original layoff was published June 15th. Thanks for the update. The relatively short Computerworld article is worth reading.
I work for #3 on your list.
I actually find it hard to believe that the top ten have that few workers in the U.S.
The piece of #3 I work for only has American workers because of existing State and Federal contracts, and some corporate clients, that require U.S.-based and U.S. Citizen workers. Recently we were transitioning to Office365 until someone figured out that the lack of guarantee that our email would be kept onshore violated some of our contracts.
You are correct in stating that there is no IT worker shortage, but there is an IT Skill shortage. Most employers persist in posting want ads with pie-in-the-sky everything and the kitchen sink requirements. Nobody is willing to allow for any on the job training and ramp up, they want everything on day one, so that disqualifies many applicants, including myself, from many positions that I would be overly qualified for in reality. Employers simply don’t care about managing the career of their employees, they are merely resources that either meet the current requirements or don’t, in which case they will replace that resource.
We definitely need some enhanced IT Skills training help to meet the needs of the current landscape. Even offshore can’t supply many required skillsets. My offshore compatriots boast of bachelors and masters-level degrees and advanced certifications, but in many cases are unable to actually do the work without someone showing them exactly how to do it and providing a checklist. They have no creativity or imagination, which is another reason why some of us are kept around. Often contracts are won on low bids that pieces are then broken off and assigned to us because of our skills, and then because of low profit margins we are continually denied COLA or merit increases. It’s been over four years for me.
So why don’t I leave? Well, I’m taking advantage of the flexibility in my schedule to finally complete my own degree, and plan to step up my search at the end of this year, after I graduate.
The H1-B program drains cash from our economy in the same way as Central and South American immigrants sending cash home. It detracts from our economy not just in the cash drain, but also from the diminished opportunity of otherwise qualified US workers, which trickles down into lack of interest in training.
The H1-B program needs to be greatly curtailed. Raise the $10,000 application fee to $25,000 or more for a start; change unemployment rules to allow people to take training classes, and get the vendors to make their training programs available and accessible to all qualified candidates, not just those who work for partners or can pony up the $3000-5000 course fees.
Outsourcing is always going to be a factor, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be India, China or Brazil supplying the workers. We have plenty that want to work, want to learn and are capable right here.
actualy the problem is even when you meet all the pie in the sky requirements, they are still not interested, say the requirements are not important, I’ve had that happen to me
There is no shortage they simply don’t want to hire Americans
The Federal Government knows there is a problem with the H-1B visa program, 21% fraud:
https://www.cio.com/article/2433049/staff-management/h-1b-visa-applications-to-be-changed-after-fraud-report.html
What foreign H-1B visa holders pay into Social Security helps keep the program afloat. Assuming few of them actually become residents (as of May 2015 an H-1B visa can be used as a stepping stone to citizenship) also now an H-1B visa holder can bring a spouse and family over.
IMHO, H-1B visas depress salaries and export knowledge. An auction system that precludes collusion with the proceeds being used for citizen skill development would resolve some of this.
BTW it is pretty obvious:
– Congress keeps the current system around just to receive political contributions.
– Federal workers don’t review the applications, and
– Cringely only reintroduces this subject because he knows it will generate a lot of comments when he is out of fresh ideas.
This goes a long way toward explaining why virtually every tech job advertised asks for “3 to 5 years” experience with EXACTLY the technology they use, and why programmers with 30 years of experience can’t get past the HR department.
Janet, our company often posts jobs looking for exactly what we want because we’d rather not pay them to gear up, and often that’s because we’re usually so late getting the job posted that we’re desperate and need someone who can dive right in. Just in time hiring? No, more like bad planning indeed. Though it saves us pots of money because we pay $0 for the unfilled positions while everyone else does the work with free overtime. And then the 3-5 years experience requirement comes in because that’s about where the match is for the very highest pay band that HR will let us get away with. As one hiring manager said to us when hashing out the job listings, we won’t penalise people for added experience; in fact, we prefer years of added experience, but HR just won’t let us pay for it. Problem is, nobody with that added experience wants the lower paycheck. And so in the end, it is likely to take months and months and eventually go to an H1B who can barely do the job with much guidance and sees our meagre offering as a step up from his (almost always a “he”) current unenviable position.
It’s all about $$$. It’s easy to claim there’s a “shortage of domestic IT talent”, when what you really mean is “there’s a shortage of domestic IT talent that’ll accept a 70% pay-cut”.
Then there’s ObamaCare. Just another bit of friction / pressure / incentive to avoid hiring a US citizen in the first place.
I work for a company that goes cheap all the time. They are also a very top down oriented company. I have worked for them for 18 months or so, in all that time I have not had once where the home office called or wrote to me directly. My only contact with them is the help desk on occasion. Mind you I’m a lowly tech in one of their facilities, not exactly on the root network, but I do manage the local domain. There have been technology initiatives which I have had to deal with, with no instruction, no quick email to let me know it was even taking place. The attitude is, we will do what is needed. So if it screws up, they don’t require any help from the local tech, they know what they are doing, etc. etc.
The reason I mention the previous, is they use almost exclusively web based apps for capturing info. Since I have been working for them I have noticed several new apps online. Not one of these apps is to help the local user do their job better. No each of them is to capture some obscure financial data, or complicance data to satisfy contracts or government standards. Some of these apps may use email to simulate a little work flow, but none of them use the workers on the line to capture those same data as it happens. Everyone of these are the simplest apps. Just pages with fields, that save to an SQL backend. Frankly trained chimps could do them. I think in the modern climate of finance is everything. I think a lot of corporate software frankly doesn’t need the best programmers. Run of the mill will work.
I think it shows a certain arrogance to think all programmers in India are just itching to get an H1-B visa to come to the US and program for peanuts? I have a sneaking suspicion that the really top notch programmers are doing just fine in India and have no desire to leave.
Re: “I think it shows a certain arrogance to think all programmers in India are just itching to get an H1-B visa to come to the US and program for peanuts”. Agreed. But no one here is saying or thinking that judging from the complaints about problems caused by inept H1Bs. Of course, as some commenters have said, there may be a lack of opportunity in India, so some of the better ones may come here for that reason.
Mostly what I’m getting at is I don’t think there is a lot of what I would call good, solid work flow oriented software being created in the large corporations. It is mostly basic input of data to a database. I know there are good programmers in India, I just have a suspicion that we don’t get them by and large. We get the people who can take a list of needed fields to save and move that to a database. I bet no MVVM, no mobile, no work flow, no Unit testing……. just grunt work.
The good ones aren’t coming to America to live in shared townhouses, making 50 cents on the dollar and being treated like crap by companies primarily oriented to cheapest cost per hour? Color me shocked. You get a full mix of people that come over as H1B, ranging from the smart to the painfully stupid, pleasant to obstinate, young to old, etc. They are people with the single commonality that they work for less money than most anyone else.
Of course I think your initial premise is rubbish, that the work being done in the US isn’t hard enough or cool or whatever. Giant newsflash: lowly tech in remote office of company that doesn’t respect IT is never going to see a sophisticated piece of code that doesn’t have a large, free Google logo on it. There’s plenty of cool IT being done by H1B guys and there’s an even bigger pile of super boring database entry going on everywhere, done by cheap H1B and expensive True Blue American contractors or fulltimers. (And if you think that Unit Testing is the brass ring that’ll bring the best and the brightest to these shining shores, well let me tell you that’s probably not going to work.)
Who cares if it’s all of them. If one in 1000 is a programmer, then that is more than a million potential hires in India alone.
“Who cares if it’s all of them. If one in 1000 is a programmer, then that is more than a million potential hires in India alone.” You’ll be letting in a far higher percent of rapists, murderers and con artists than you would be letting in 1 programmer /1000. THAT is enough to not let any in.
I don’t get the connection. If you’re going to be murdered, does it matter if it’s committed by an American or an Indian, posing as a programmer?
Ronc, you really haven’t been murdered until you’ve been killed by an immigrant posing as a programmer. Sublime!
Read this article…
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tech/tech-news/TCS-Infosys-issue-aside-1-lakh-H-1B-visas-given-to-Indians-last-year/articleshow/47802494.cms
@ Pratim: How many is that: “1 lakh”?
100,000
No training ? Not enough training. Hmm. Seems I went back to school to get into IT, when I was 45 years old. So I guess I retrained. Started with Novell, went to Microsoft, learned that. Took classes I needed. Hmm. Not trained ? It’s all about money, and what our corporations and now proven, the Government, ie OPM, haven’t learned is experience is the key, not just the low bidder. I’ve worked with the Indian substitutes, in India, on support calls, and they’re NOT THAT GOOD. If they can’t fix the issue reading from the script, you get redirected to the remaining American support team anyway, and that happens a lot more than anyone may believe. And who will be left to buy the $700 iPhone, or $300 iWatch when no good jobs are left. Any wonder the economy is running so anemicly. In my 60’s now, so maybe I won’t have to witness the fall of the American dream, and country, but it is happening.
Almost all US citizens came from all over world.If only locals are allowed then hire only Red Indians 🙂
$15 per hour and saving? Which is scam? H1 B program or this article!!!
“How can you afford to live here on $15/hour?” The answer was they were living in group homes (e.g. – 8 guys would rent a townhouse and pool their money for food, etc.), plus had “no life” outside of work. To which I’d ask, “why are you doing this?”. The answer was “it’s better than what we can get at home (India)” and they would manage to save some money.
Well Americans give lecture to the whole world – don’t have trade barriers, don’t have protectionist policies, open up your market for our products, reduce your duties.
This is just a reverse of that with people. Now when the shoe is on the other foot you can’t stand and cry foul foul. Its the nature of globalization that lowest cost producer wins, and lowest cost service provider wins. You’ve been preaching globalization to the world for decades. Now face up to it and own it, don’t complain.
There is a subtle difference between globalization of products vs. services. What product is made in India by an Indian company, that I would want to purchase?
You can buy Isabgol.It will clean your system from ill thoughts also 🙂
Excellent paper supporting your discussion of H1-B Visa and ‘shortage’ of domestic STEM talent. https://www.epi.org/publication/bp359-guestworkers-high-skill-labor-market-analysis/ Thank you for writing this blog.
Why are we letting our politicians and presidential candidates cede the concept of “American middle class” to appease the Koch Brothers, etc? Why did we let the H1-B program decimate American jobs for Americans? Why are we less restrictive on “importing” people to fill jobs when the Canadians have very strict rules that a non-Canadian can’t fill a job if there is a Canadian to do it? It’s time to confront our politicians and call them out on this; else, conversation may be off the table and so will civility. Remember, we are a well-armed constituency and the U.S. Constitution sanctions that.
Re: “Canadians have very strict rules that a non-Canadian can’t fill a job if there is a Canadian to do it?” That’s exactly what the US H1B law says, and why Bob has been using it to justify the less-globalization point of view. Are you saying the Canadian law is strictly enforced? Can you name a tech job that Canadians are unavailable to do?
We have the same problem in Canada with the Big Consulting Companies (IBM, Deloitte, Oracle etc) outsourcing IT jobs and of course bringing over many many males to implement complex systems.
It doesn’t work.
There are many cultural, educational and politcal reasons why our nation is advanced and their nation can be considered 3rd world or developing. The Indians cannot think critically. The Indians work product is weak. The amount of re-work required to bring Indian produced work to Norrth American standards is prohibitively expensive.
I’ve dealt with these intruders to effective project management the same way I deal with lazy Gen Y: peformance management. It is extremely easy to give the Indians clear tasks with clear deadlines and have them fail. And then show the risk developing for the project / program by the Indians’ inability to deliver interdependent pieces. This approach takes time however has been successful for me.
There are 3 glaring mistakes in the article in a first glance.
1. EB2 visas are backlogged. Currently as back as Jan 2006 for some countries. I don’t know how you got the information that they are not filled up every year. Please see the visa bulletin, https://www.travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-policy/bulletin/2015/visa-bulletin-for-september-2015.html. The EB2 visa’s have country cap’s unlike the H1B’s. I think the writer needs more education and more research than sweeping generalization in making arguments.
2. Economics of doing business. One should remember that water flows top down. If you get cheap labor in another country, why would anyone want to invest in the US and pay more for human resources? The world has become a smaller place with high connectivity, Good video and audio conference facilities. So only way for businesses to be more competitive is by streamlining salaries, cutting costs and getting good technical labor for affordable costs. Another mistake is that H1B’s come for 1/3rd or 1/4th price which is wrong per se. H1B’s have to be paid prevailing wage determined by the department of labor. The only people who come for 1/3rd or 1/4th cost is foreign workers in foreign country. They are not H1B’s. But, thats what a free trade is.
3. Another assumption that the Job availability is a zero sum game. Like there are only ‘x’ number of jobs, Which is not true. As the population grows, economy grows creating more jobs. H1b’s are high skilled. There average wage is much higher than American average wages. So that means America is importing people with higher than median pay’s which will obviously improve spending and grow the economy thus creating more jobs.
Overall the article is full of false information misleading the readers.
We don’t just read the article, and ignore the comments and all previous articles and their comments. The overwhelming consensus is that there is a huge difference between what the law says and how it’s enforced or interpreted. The result is that H1B is an excuse for cheap, inferior labor, to temporarily increase the bottom line, while destroying the company in the long-term, since the customers will eventually leave. In principle, globalization is good, but it can be exploited by some, to the detriment of others. All I can suggest is read the comments from those directly involved in the affected businesses to see how complex the issue is.
@ Srikanth Paladugu: We don’t just read the article, and ignore the comments and all previous articles and their comments. The overwhelming consensus is that there is a huge difference between what the law says and how it’s enforced or interpreted. The result is that H1B is an excuse for cheap, inferior labor, to temporarily increase the bottom line, while destroying the company in the long-term, since the customers will eventually leave. In principle, globalization is good, but it can be exploited by some, to the detriment of others. All I can suggest is read the comments from those directly involved in the affected businesses to see how complex the issue is.
Trading with your enemies is NEVER good. They will use the $ you give them to build up their militaries and attack you. One Indian woman told me “We are going to start a war with you”. In WW2 it was called “Trading with Enemies” and we learned our lesson too late. Looks like this time will be a repeat except on a bigger scale.
What a joke? India is asking for peace even with ever aggressive Pakistan and China immediate India neighbors. Probably you heard from Native American Indian talking about “War with you” which by all means makes sense for herding human beings like cattle up north and into deep cold/freezing north and labelling them as savages.
Don’t worry we only have about 5 more years before the Indians are on par with our wages. Then they will experience the same thing we are going thru.
[…] smile at the pressure immigrants put on wages (including high-tech workers) and at the influx of poor and politically passive subjects (much of the southwest is regressing […]
I’m really happy the Indians get to come here and make a better life. I’m not so happy that I’ve had to train a replacement battalion of h-1b and offshore workers at a couple of my jobs. I don’t like the temporary contractual nature of all IT work that has partially come from all of this as well. It makes me very nervous to be in this field.
These visa workers also get turned into slave labor. They are forced to work 80 hour work weeks and put 40 on the time card. If they have a problem with that then it’s back to India with them. Good luck taking the company to court on the other side of the planet.
That said, the worldwide value of a native English speaking American developer, architect, or other tech engineer is still huge and there is an enormous money to be made. We can find work anywhere in the world and get paid well for it. I have had no trouble getting a job and I seem to make 20 thousand or so more every couple of years.
Also let’s be realistic, and realize that much of the H1B abuse and subsequent displacement of American IT workers is driven by organized crime coming from India. It’s a profitable enterprise for foreign racketeers who aren’t exactly hindered by ethics or morality. Selling visas for $5000, bribing corporate hiring managers, paying off politicians, human trafficking, indentured servitude, etc. Not to mention the nepotism, once they are in hiring positions, Indians will only hire Indians. Maybe because they’re forced to by their criminal “sponsors”.
This article is full of imagination and cases I never heard off. It’s all rumors especially in IT. No Indian with graduation in engineering or masters in engineering will never come to US for $15 to $28 even if they pool (this is another joke) the money to buy food. I understand short time assignment folks coming for 3 to 6 months staying together in a shared accommodations but unlike 1 room or 2 room shared by 8 folks(another crap). Even they are paid decently. This article is just spreading hatred than presenting facts.
Real problem is with a few US based small consulting companies(not companies like Infosys, Wipro or TCS) that bring folks on visas but don’t have any confirmed projects. A few of these don’t pay until a project is found for the person they bring on visa. USCIS need to find and curb these practices but it is run by people who should open up recruit people who has seen these violations first hand to control this than coming up with convoluted processes that confuse everybody and do not help US businesses.
Things are so bad these days that even top grads have an awfully hard time getting noticed. Especially if they aren’t from a school where there’s aggressive on-campus recruiting. In the 1990s, a top grad with a degree or two could send their resume to a Silicon Valley tech job, or really, any sort of tech job. And have an interview within days. Few grads graduated without a pick of at least a few jobs at all skill levels. Contrast this with today, with the H-1B invasion, where firms who seek out the top grads are overwhelmed with literally hundreds, sometimes thousands of resumes per position. No recruiter can possibly sort through that many resumes, so most of them are merely thrown out, either randomly, or algorithmically. The end result is that huge numbers of very bright people are sidelined. Often heavily in debt from years of studying, their careers stolen from them by a ‘system’ which has basically glutted the market with foreigners simply to make the investment banker and CEO types a few additional bucks.
The other big problem in the workforce is that engineering groups and managers used to have relative autonomy to determine staffing within a group. They were trusted with hiring, and negotiating fair working arrangements with their fellow professionals. Engineers were considered assets to the organization. Today, many of these tasks are carried out by a “HR department” where hiring managers are people with no engineering background, but merely are trained in the legalistic aspects of hiring. And on-the-job aspects of the engineering profession have declined dramatically. Engineering used to be a job where contributions, not merely being at a job 9-5, were valued above all. If engineers wanted to go play golf on a Friday, that wasn’t a problem as long as they were making decent progress in their work. Those days are gone though which is unfortunate given the plethora of mobility tools available that should theoretically be liberating engineers from their offices (or now, cubicles I guess).
Even the Indians know that they are committing fraud. They are infighting among themselves and telling people not to hire people from “Fraud Pradesh” (Andarah Pradesh) or other Southern Indian states because it is fraud capitol of India. Indians want to be in the USA, but they don’t want other Indians to be here too.
It’s the equivalent of putting a bunch of crabs in a bucket and watching them fight each other to get out of the bucket. If one crab is about to get out of the bucket, the other crabs are there to pull it back down. What a mess the IT sector is. Luckily for me, I have a plan before the next bubble totally kills it.