Thirty years ago, when I was working for a time in Saudi Arabia, I saw a public execution. I didn’t attend an execution, I didn’t witness an execution, I just happened to be there. There was in the center of this town a square and in the square were gathered hundreds of people. I was working in a building next to the square and looked out the window to see what was causing all the noise. At that moment a prisoner was brought forward, his arms bound behind him. He was dragged up the steps to a platform and there fell to his knees. Another man whom I quickly came to understand was the executioner climbed to the platform with the prisoner and poked him in the side with a long curved sword. The prisoner involuntarily jerked up just as the sword slashed down and just like that there was a head rolling off the platform, the body falling dead like a sack of flour. The crowd roared. Beginning to end it took less than a minute.
This was Bedouin justice. Nomadic societies have no jails so their justice systems tend to be pretty simple with punishments generally limited to the loss of wealth or body parts. Convicted criminals for certain crimes in Saudi Arabia first lose one hand then two if they repeat the crime. Other crimes go straight for the head. I don’t know what this guy did back in 1982 but I remember he had both hands. It’s a cruel and arbitrary system but you know where you stand in it and convicted criminals are fairly easy to spot.
I bring up this image because this is the first of two or three columns about law and regulation, how systems do and don’t work, and what can be done to make them better. Bedouin justice circa 1982 is our baseline and it works pretty well for simple crimes, though maybe not so well for multinational corporations.
The inspiration for this column is a recent blog post by David Rubens, a security consultant in the UK. It’s a bit dense but if you fight your way through the post it makes pretty good sense about why business regulation (or any regulation for that matter) doesn’t seem to work very well these days.
Rubens writes of Game Theory and specifically multiple iterations of The Prisoners’ Dilemma problem, which has to do with how risk decisions are made by organizations involved in dynamic systems like business. Here, with some light editing by me, is the nut paragraph:
“..when it comes down to the relationship between regulators and those being regulated… the ability of the regulated organization to maximize personal benefit is based on the ability to predict what the other side (the regulators) will do in response to the two options (which are) cooperate (play nicely) or betray (screw the customer). Given that in almost all cases the regulatory body has less funds, personnel, resources and expertise than the organization it is regulating, then it becomes clear that there is little to be gained in the long run by cooperating or playing nicely, and much to be gained by ignoring the regulator and developing a strategy that focuses purely on maximizing its own personal benefit. This is not an issue of ‘right’ or ‘wrong,’ but purely, in its own terms at least (maximization of profit, increased market share, annual bonuses, career prospects), of whether it is ‘effective’ or ‘ineffective.’”
Rubens’s point, then — and I think it is a good one — is that absent some guiding moral principle usually embodied in a leader, the more powerful an organization the more it will act in its own self interest even if (especially if) that interest is in violation of regulations or laws. You can have a strong leader who says “We’re going to play fair,” and that changes the picture. but if the leader (strong or weak, but running a powerful organization) says, “our only job is to maximize shareholder return” then rules and eventually laws will be broken to make that happen.
This makes us look again at the political argument that comes up again and again about whether free markets can be left to themselves or whether they should be regulated. I’m not attempting to answer that question here, by the way, because in practical terms it is the wrong question. The better question is in the business and regulatory structures we have now, does financial regulation even work?
Rubens says “no, regulation doesn’t work” and I agree.
End of argument for some, who would then go on to say that since regulation doesn’t work then we shouldn’t bother with it. “Let business do its job.”
Except there are instances like protecting the old and weak where even those who oppose regulation see some advantage to it. So in order to cope with those instances, we have in recent years come to talk less about deterrents and more about rewards. Most of the regulatory responses to the financial collapse of 2008 were in the form of incentives. Instead of going to jail, the perps tended to be deemed too big to fail and actually rewarded for most of the bad things they’d already done.
Nearly every violator, even if they paid millions in settlements and fines, ended up financially ahead for having broken the rules.
What’s key here is that there’s a dual system. If you are powerful enough, you are too big to fail. If you are weak enough, you are too small to matter. In the 1980s the popularity of three strikes laws worked to displace petty criminals at immense cost to the system and to society. Three Strikes worked to some extent, so in that respect it was an effective policy with bad side effects. Yet nobody has proposed applying Three Strikes to these civil crimes.
Why not? Can’t we find organizations that have be caught doing similar offenses three or more times? If we had Three Strikes for big banks, for example, most of them would be out of business.
What would be wrong with that? Hundreds of banks are dissolved by the FDIC every year. There’s nothing sacred about a bank.
You may notice a pervasive theme in public discourse that government is too big and ought to be made smaller, that regulations ought to be simplified or removed altogether.
Trust us.
Yet with a weak government there is only one way to have successful deterrents, which is by making them brutal. Bedouin justice is the answer for efficient financial regulation.
One judge, one sword. Float some mortgage backed securities that you rate AAA but know will fail; manipulate the LIBOR; fix commodity prices; backdate your stock options; lose a hand.
The “since regulation doesn’t work then we shouldn’t bother with it” argument is non-sensical. Laws against murder have been around for millennia, yet murder still occurs – should we just get rid of that law? Laws/regulations are important for a well functioning society. But they do need to be enforceable, and enforced.
It seems simple doesn’t it? Put the money into finding the bad guys, then punish them. Nothing else works.
Wonder why it doesn’t happen.
“Nobody has proposed applying Three Strikes to these civil crimes. Why not?”
It may have something to do with the people targeted by current “Three Strikes” laws being poor and marginalized, so they can’t afford to buy pliant bipartisan majorities in Congress. Unlike Wall Street.
I was with you most of the way until you said “You may notice a pervasive theme in public discourse that government is too big and ought to be made smaller, that regulations ought to be simplified or removed altogether.”
We shouldn’t have to grow government; a group of essentially ‘non-producers,’ in order to keep up with big business. Maybe we need to break up the businesses like we did with Standard Oil and Bell Telephone if too big means uncontrollable.
At any rate, some regulation is necessary, but big and complex doesn’t mean effective and some regulation is ill-conceived in practice and needs to be changed or gotten rid of. That doesn’t mean no regulations.
Did I propose making government bigger? One judge, one sword…
I like that idea Bob, kinda like Judge Dredd, only wearing one of those green plastic visors, a pencil on one hand and a gold .44 magnum Desert Eagle in the other.
“We shouldn’t have to grow government; a group of essentially ‘non-producers,’ in order to keep up with big business.”
What a fatuous statement! One suspects that the writer “thinks” that the only thing worth producing is money and that “big business” is more important than life itself. The purpose of a government is to produce stability within society and to maximize the extent to which all of its members can lead happy and fulfilling lives. This is production! Unfortunately, many governments are not very good at it and are prone to let “big business” and other selfish interests get in the way. That is no reason for not trying.
“Big business” has to understand that being allowed to attempt to make a profit out of our society is a massive privilege, not a god given right. In return for being accorded that privilege we are entitled to expect the very highest standards of behavior. This goes far beyond merely adhering to the law and if they do not measure up, we should confiscate their assets and reuse them for other purposes. I suspect that those in charge of many offending businesses are not repairable and so I agree with Bob that rolling a few heads on the pavement would keep them out of the way in future!
Yes comrade, and who gets to decide what constitutes “happy and fulfilling lives”? Lenin? Stalin? Hitler? Kim Jung il? You socialists and big government people keep forgetting one of the most truthful quotations of our time. “Absolute power corrupts absolutely”. And there is no more absolute power than a large centralized government, whether it be communist, fascist, dictatorship, or monarchy. History has shown time and time again, the more power you give a government to control your life, the more this power will be abused.
Now that being said government does have a role in administering justice. And I agree with Bob completely, that the punishments must be much more severe to be of any use at all. Maybe not chopping off body parts, but perhaps forfeiture of ALL wealth for the perpetrators.
But there is one big problem that hasn’t been discussed in the article. Bernie Madoff stole billions from customers and he was punished. Jon Corzine stole a billion from customers and he hasn’t been touched. Why is this? Well it turns out that Corzine donated a lot of money to Obama’s campaign, and was even a trusted financial adviser for the president. So what happens when you get someone at the very top like Obama, who is just as corrupt and refuses to prosecute the criminals? That’s the real question we should be asking.
And that is where the U.S. Constitution comes in.
By definition the Federal Government is the most limited portion of government.
States have more power than the Federal Government, but are also limited.
Local governments (e.g. city, municipalities, etc.) have the most governmental power, but are again still limited.
Individuals have the ultimate power.
What is not expressly granted to the Federal Government is given to the States and the people.
Sadly, we’ve allowed the Federal Government to bully its way into more power than it should have, and for that we need to fight back.
How does three strikes deal with the “too big to fail” argument? What might work is forced division of a larger entity. Make them vulnerable to regulations by reducing their size as punishment. Perhaps they’ll be a bit more responsive and responsible if smaller? There again, our financial institutions seem to live in a different world and the rest of us are apparently willing to get away with murder. They’re akin to the mafia.
Too big to fail can’t actually be true. If all the bankers really believed in such a thing then they would fight to ensure no bank ever was too big. Clearly, they don’t believe that a bank failure will be catastrophic, so I say give them one.
As it stands, there is nothing inherently better than a big bank vs. thousands of small banks. It used to be about branch locations and ATMs. Now what can a big bank give you that a small bank can’t?
If anything, the take-home message from the 2008 banking crisis is that you can’t be big enough. The bigger you are, the more you can get away with because if you do screw up, you’ll have to be saved. It’s like a gambler who suddenly loses big, so much so that the house steps in and gives him money because they can’t be seen to have allowed him to bet so big to start with. So now, next time, what does the gambler know to do? Bet smaller? I don’t think so.
That’s in large part why corruption and incompetence have become so pervasive. Too Big to Fail really ought to mean Too Big to Survive. Beyond a certain scale these organizations become less, not more, efficient.
I would say that Jim has identified a key point in the flaws of government that we experience today. Today’s government has a posture that punishes the little guy and ignores the big guy when it comes to anti-social or illegal behavior. If we had fewer big guys, the government might actually increase its level of enforcement.
Anecdote: I worked for a semiconductor company that received an SEC love letter requiring us to investigate suspected insider trading of some sort. We spent huge amounts of time and money trying to track down the problem based upon the scant information the government gave us, questioning employees, trying to figure out if relatives of employees were involved, reviewing our own access security, back-tracing documents, etc. etc.
Eventually it turns out that the problems came from the world’s most prominent consulting company who we had hired, some investment bankers we had hired, and some hedge fund executives. Because an exception proves the rule, when this coterie of corrupt capitalists were actually prosecuted, the news hit the WSJ and the various prosecution cases have continued for months.
Please note, however, that the government was far more eager to persecute us with numerous, and frankly incompetent, demands for compliance and investigation in directions that, in hindsight, were obviously off the mark, but were easy for the government to pursue because they were little guys. Little companies, little employees, little relatives in little countries. Going after the real culprits, big boys in the big money in the big town was much more difficult.
When Obama bailed out GM he required the leader of GM to step down. That would be at least a minimum amount of “beheading” that should be done in a bailout.
I agree that we need SOMETHING. Right now we’re still on a moebius-strip road to ruin with the financial system non-changes that happened.
You do realize it was President Barack Obama’s immediate predecessor, President George W. Bush, that implemented the auto-industry bailout, don’t you?
Here is a link to NYT article from 2008
https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/20/business/20auto.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
I’ve thought about this as well. Drivers may be able to profit by driving single in the car pool lane (without paying for it) if the money they pay in fines is less then the access fees would have been. Drivers tend not to do this, however, because too many ‘Moving Violation’ points results is a suspended drivers’ license.
What we have been missing with business regulations is an equivalent penalty. If a business violates a regulation too many times, it endures a penalty it REALLY wants to avoid.
Actual criminal activity should be punished on an individual basis just as it is for non commercial crimes.
William K Black prosecuted thousands of bankers over the S&L crisis a decade ago. Eric Holder has prosecuted zero bankers, yet the 2008 financial crisis was an order of magnitude larger. Check out blogs from Matt Taibbi and Max Keiser.
Regulation reminds me of a quote attributed to Thomas Edison at the finale of the movie about his life. Spencer Tracy, playing Edison, says “What man’s mind can conceive, man’s character can control.”
https://www.commonsensemedia.org/movie-reviews/edison-man
The solution to the “too big to fail” problem is simple: introduce a tax whose rate is proportional to the bank’s size, so that taxes paid are proportional to the square of the bank’s size. This was proposed, and rejected by our venal legislature in thrall to the banks’ lobby (and only tepidly given lip service by our equally venal president). As always, legalized political corruption is at the root of yet one more of our woes.
As for the information gap between regulators and the companies they oversee, the problem is once again easy to solve: give whistleblowers a cut of the fines the perps will pay. Bradley Birkenfeld got over $100M for exposing tax fraud at UBS. Given that most employees have zero loyalty to their employer (due to employers having demonstrated they have zero loyalty to their employees), for any significant fraud, the incentive would be irresistible. The main problem there is our legal system and the procedural protections it offers white-collar criminals, making successful prosecution difficult even with an inside source indicating where the bodies are buried.
As a previous commenter posted, for whatever reasons, the Obama administration has clearly decided not to prosecute the epic fraud and malfeasance that led to the crisis. The failure is one of political will and also one of American voters failing to hold their elected officials to account.
You are off your nut…
Bob,
First off, when a bank or whatever becomes “too big to fail,” it actually is too big to manage efficiently. It should come under the anti-trust laws and be split up into useful and efficient components.
When a rich and/or powerful industry, corporation, or organization is allowed to bribe high government officials, as in making huge campaign donations, then any discussion of regulating that industry, corporation, or organization is meaningless. The problem then isn’t merely imposing meaningful regulation; it is eliminating the bribery that renders any regulation to be of little value.
Another practice that distorts the required independence of a government official is when that official has an expectation of joining the opposing side at some time in the future. This practice should be prohibited. Examples are congresspersons being industry advocates after retirement, military contract officers going to work for their former suppliers after retirement, or SEC officials going to work for a large public corporation after retirement. These government officials already receive suitable retirement benefits. Enough is enough!
The government is supposed to work on behalf of the ordinary citizen, not some special interest group.
The proper punishment for these crimes of special interest groups and government officials should depend on the amount of harm inflicted on the country. Some of these crimes should be prosecuted as treason since they harm the country to such an overwhelming extent. Perhaps an occasional public execution would be useful.
Who should suffer the consequences? The people who were responsible for the crimes of course. These people operate in secrecy, so proving their crimes might be difficult. If you can’t prove who is responsible, there is always the circumstantial evidence. This consists of motive, means, and opportunity. Personally, I think any person holding or seeking a position of power is likely to be or become corrupt. When added to compelling circumstantial evidence, the verdict should be GUILTY!
Wouldn’t this result in a few possibly innocent people being punished? So what? Millions of innocent people have been killed in past wars with no benefit to the world whatsoever. How much better to mistakenly punish a few innocent people along with criminals from the same crowd. Remember, birds of a feather flock together.
Nothing is known for certain in life. All you can hope for is to reward those apparent good Samaritans and punish those apparent evil doers.
Alas, the anti-trust laws weren’t written to maximize organizational efficiency.
True. The laws were written to prevent large organizations or combinations (the robber barons) from controlling the marketplace. By breaking up these large organizations or combinations, competition would be restored to the marketplace .These mega banks have such overwhelming influence on the marketplace that they should be cut down to a reasonable size.
Bob, There is another problem. When banks fail, the FDIC protects some depositors, but not others and even protects some nondepositors. There is no judicial review of the FDIC’s actions. There is no audit of what the FDIC says it spends for a failed bank. Solvent banks are sometimes closed and insolvent banks sometimes stay open. Banks directly regulated by the Federal Reserve are almost never closed. It’s too complicated for the press to cover and there are too many FOIA exemptions for the regulators, so it would be hard for the press to cover in any event.
We can judge from the past. When regulatory systems are established and enforced, they work. When they are intentionally undermined, they fail. The subversion of regulatory systems can take many forms, from corrupt politicians literally changing the law to make the illegal legal, the regulated appointed to regulate themselves, bribery of officials, special pleading by the regulated for exemptions, and underfunding of the regulatory agencies. There’s always someone trying to game the system and escape the regulator’s eye, even in matters of life and death. So long as civilization lasts, there will be regulations, there will be regulators, and there will be crooks. Get rid of regulations, you say. Die of food poisoning. Die in an airliner crash. Get an infectious disease from a blood transfusion. Die because the meds you’re taking are too weak. Die because nothing in your house is grounded, even though your electrician swore up and down that he grounded every outlet. Have fun in that world.
Financial regulations are the smallest part of the regulatory scheme that holds us together. I guess that’s the point I’m trying to get at. Why should the financial sector be exempt from something that exists in every other realm of human activity?
As the banking collapse was happening, I just couldn’t shake the feeling that far too few banking execs were jumping out of windows to their deaths because of the total humiliation of their failure.
They couldn’t lift their sacks of bonus money and still climb up on the windowsill.
I heard the bonus money was stacked so high in the room they couldn’t even get to the window.
I like your thinking bob. Watching failed (and then rescued) institutions pay out bonuses to execs because they “needed it” typified the whole sorry saga. Financial criminals don’t see right or wrong, it’s the “cost of doing their business”. Losing a hand may be the only for sociopaths to find their moral compass.
” in almost all cases the regulatory body has less funds, personnel, resources and expertise than the organization it is regulating”
Did the author of this forget that the gov’t has an army of free lawyers and infinite time?
I think you overestimate here government resources which are often deliberately limited. Congress, for example, has done a pretty good job of limiting the funds for IRS prosecution of tax evaders. That budget has been cut dramatically and for some reason there seems to be more tax evasion: could there be a connection?
Just as an example, many years ago I wrote a piece for National Geographic about a government program to regulate pesticide runoff in the Great Lakes. I was amazed to learn that our budget for the article (mainly photography, by the way, but also some travel) WAS LARGER THAN THE BUDGET FOR THE GOVERNMENT PROGRAM WE WERE WRITING ABOUT.
A lot of regulatory programs are two consultants, a secretary and half a lawyer. You only think there are unlimited resources behind them.
Not one word about regulatory capture… the real problem.
Absolutely correct. K Street wouldn’t exist without the gravity well of centralized power in D.C
…and the results included the Tea Party and Occupy movements.
Americans can see that the government and the banks both failed.
The banks took risks and failed, the government decided not to regulate the financial services, the banks took liabilities and called them assets, the government never punished this lie, the banks socialized the cost of their failure, the government gave them more money to risk, the banks paid their executives more bonuses.
The Tea Party sees this giant waste of tax dollars and makes the obvious conclusion that giving more money to the government in the form of taxes is stupid. The tea Party also sees the lack of punishment for the bankers and despises the government for being the lackey of Wall Street.
The Occupy movement sees the bankers engage in fraudulent and unethical behavior and rejects their way of life and their disdain for the American people who provide them the playground for their antics. The Occupy movement understands that the system is broken and calls for radical change.
From either side the obvious back-scratching between Washington and New York is repugnant.
While superficially compelling, the argument for more severe punishment of big corporations is naive. The history of regulatory agencies makes it clear that these agencies are quickly co-opted by the corporations it is supposed to regulate, to be used to protect incumbents and keep out potential competitors.
When its regulators and not consumers that decide who will succeed in the marketplace, all we are doing is giving the advantage to corporations with political connections and power over those companies that can actually deliver good products at decent prices to consumers.
It was regulators at the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation that created the “too big to fail” precedent in the 80’s with the bailout of Continental Illinois, encouraging banks to expand and merge even if it did not make the resulting institution more efficient. After all, the bigger they got, the lower their funding costs as it’s less likely that regulators would let them fail. It was regulators at the Bank of International Settlements and then followed in the US, that decided, in their infinite wisdom, that a mortgage-backed security only required one-fourth of the capital backing that a traditional mortgage held to maturity, encouraging mortgage brokers to sell toxic products to consumers and investment banks to securitize and flog the crap to investors. It was regulators that gave the three rating agencies that rated these crap assets as AAA and none else NRSRO status, a franchise monopoly in all but name. It was regulators empowered by Congress that swept away the most basic rules of mortgage lending (loan-to-value and debt-to-income ratios) in the name of promoting home ownership. It was regulators who encouraged the race to the bottom in lending standards by giving green light to Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and FHA to expand its portfolios at whatever cost with the backing of taxpayers. And, it was regulators at the Fed who artificially lowered interest rates and kept them dangerously low whenever the markets took pause or fright at the scale of the expanding asset bubble encouraged by regulators.
Its ironic that the justifiable calls for bankers’ heads are not accompanied for the same for regulators and politicians. After all, any serious analysis of the issue and the facts shows that they were just as guilty for the resulting mess.
So what do you suggest?
I would suggest repeat offenders be broken down from national corporations and limited to separate state based entities. That way, the influence they once had is diluted and the state regulators can take over. If you can’t behave like a national corporation should, then you’ll be taken out of the national equation.
My problem with this becomes how far out from the offense the ripples are widen. The trader manipulates the LIBOR – Does the immediate supervisor, who should have known pay price? Her supervisor? The division head?
Or the other way – the Senior trader fixes a Commodity price over drinks. Should the Junior trader suffer (after all, they didn’t speak up) Should the traders who take advantage of the anomaly, without knowing the cause be punished (they should have held back from the opportunity)
I take out a mortgage, knowing full well that interest rates are abnormally low and the bank is foolish to loan me the money. Is the crime mine or the bank’s?
An eye for an eye works in a Bedouin society because the crimes are clearer and the system is simpler.
Society has evolved, perhaps our ideas of justice should too.
Render It Chaos,
The three hallmarks for proof (circumstantial evidence) that a crime has been committed are motive, means, and opportunity. A homeowner taking advantage of the available mortgage terms has the motive and the opportunity to commit a “crime.” However, it is up to the head of the mortgage division (and possibly more senior officers) to set the mortgage terms. In addition, it is up to the appropriate government official to regulate those mortgage terms.
Does a junior mortgage officer or a homeowner have the means (authority) to set the mortgage terms? Of course not. Thus, they have committed no crime, although they may benefit in some way from the crime being perpetrated by the head of the mortgage division and the responsible government official.
How high above the head of the mortgage division should guilt attach? It should attach as long as all three hallmarks still apply. I suppose in a very large and complex corporation (which should not be allowed to exist) the Board of Directors may not benefit or even be aware of the problem with their mortgage division. If so, they would not have committed a crime.
Does that answer your question?
[…] says it’s time to go Bedouin on the bankstersBob Morris, on Oct 10, 2012, 4:00 amOne judge, one sword. Float some mortgage backed securities that you rate AAA but know will fail; manipulate the LIBOR; […]
Too big too fail would be news to Bear Stearns, Lehman, Wamu, Countrywide and others. Jimmy Cayne can’t be too happy, but I guess he literally still has his head. Was Angelo Mozilo literally a criminal? I will grant you AIG and do wonder that John Thain is being talked about as a Geithner replacement, but Goldman was bailed out as much by Buffet as the Feds.
Remember, Jim C may be running something in New York but he knows little about the subject matter of his pubs. Be careful of your sources when you wander off your expertise.
personally I’ve always been a big fan of tarring and feathering. douse a few of the more egregious bankers in hot oil, roll them in chicken feathers, and voila — instant compliance among all the others.
more seriously: I think the solution is to make the penalties personal. CEO knowingly breaks the law, skirts regulations, and says a big FU to big govt loses all of HIS assets first. no more private planes, no more towncar, no big house in a gated community, etc. from 1 percent to 99 percent
if corporations are ‘people,’ then aren’t the people who run them also people? why should they be exempted from their crimes?
dt
This is all pointless because the banks own the regulators. Regulators can only provide the illusion of security. In lieu of a bailout, the free market would have already regulated all the big banks out of existence by now.
You did not mention the power of class action lawsuits. Of all the proverbial sticks available to influence organizations, these have plenty of power to change the behaviour of large corporations. We tend not to see them in the finance sector so much and I wonder why? Thoughts?
Peter D.
Aren’t you assuming that the government is a honest player in this game?
Companies can’t commit crimes nor can they go to jail. Companies don’t really care if they pay fines, because they’re not real. They are imaginary entities.
People commit crimes and people can go to jail. People hurt when they pay fines.
Prosecute a few executives for enacting corporate policy that disobeys the law and see what happens.
You can’t regulate something that doesn’t exist – a company. You must hold the officers accountable or punish them. Anything else is a “fools errand.”
B.J.
blanejackson.com
If the feds let big banks fail, the fed woiuld be left holding all of the assets of the failed banks in bonds without the resources, staff or expertise to collect on the notes. Without the banks collecting the scratch from debtors the economy would grind to a halt.
What some are sugesting here about letting banks fail has happened before arround 1929. The only way that the world economy recovered was through depopulation and full employment driven by war. That price is too high.
I do agree that big banks should be split. I do not agree with beheadings for monitary crimes. Noone would do buisness with us if we were so barbarric.
Simply auction the assets to the highest bidder.
There are many small banks, factors, loan collectors, mafia chieftains, etc., that would love to get their hands on those “assets” for pennies on the dollar. That’s how the free market is supposed to deal with irresponsible companies. You reward responsible companies by allowing them to “clean up the mess” for a huge profit. That’s your reward for prudence.
B.J.
blanejackson.com
Ahh, but the federal reserve, aka you and I, will have to pay the diffrence betwen the orig. Note that was issued by the bank and what the note was auctioned for. The feds could keep the reserve the bank had, but average reserve in 08 was 4 percent. Housing values fell by 40percent… fed would have to make up the other 36 percent?
Also, noone was buying at the time.
I don’t get it. Why fed should “create the difference”? The bank was in this debt, so someone gave the credit to this bank. They should have been more careful in choosing their debtors, like the bank should have been more careful in choosing their debtors. You are talking about “personal profit, communal loss” type of capitalism here. No, if profit is personal, loss is also personal. A couple of such cases would teach everyone, banks, investors, creditors etc all to be more careful. If something is very lucrative, it means that it is risky too. If it is risky, you take the risk of losing your investment. You can’t have the cake and eat it.
Except that in this case the Fed caused the problem by demanding the banks make housing “affordable”, by lending to people who really can’t afford it. The phrase “affordable housing” basically means the government will cover your losses, so don’t worry.
Mr. Rubens mentions the Repeated Prisoner’s Dilemma and then ignores it. A basic result is that if the two players in the repeated game place a sufficiently high value on future outcomes then mutual “cooperation” becomes rationally feasible and is certainly payoff dominant. If there is high discounting (rewards later aren’t valued nearly as much as rewards today) then you may not be able to support the “cooperative” outcome at all.
So if a company has a high value on future outcomes, they will be less likely to choose the “screw the customer” strategy. If they aren’t willing to wait for future outcomes – “eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die” – then you should expect some seriously selfish behavior today. As Bob Cringely noted, corporate leaders have some say in setting that tone. Obviously if we can force the leaders’ incentives to be more future-focused, we should see less bad behavior.
And this doesn’t apply just to corporations. If the politicians are making bad policy – for example encouraging banks to make loans to people who are borderline by guaranteeing the loans through Freddie or Fannie – then the politicians should reap the consequences. They don’t, which is why politics is considered more of a cesspool than corporations – politicians value the future even less than corporations. Few look past the next election cycle. And then there are “earmarks”….
not enough. really REALLY junk securities, put homeowners on the street… lose your head. at this point, I think we have tens of thousands of volunteers to carry a sword down Wall Street. and no jury would convict ’em, either.
The Brits have a saying “An old tax is no tax”. The corollary is that an old subsidy is no subsidy.
By extension, an old regulation is no regulation.
Big organizations love taxes and regulations, because they raise the barriers to entry of competitors or new models. Look at the rise of ride-sharing businesses and how quickly the incumbents are mobilizing regulators on their behalf.
In the long run, the market will ALWAYS do its job. But instead of ripping the band-aid off, we keep layering them on.
Bob,
I agree with you wholeheartedly! A punishment should be a true deterrent or else it’s completely ineffective. Speed bumps don’t work unless they rattle your teeth over the speed limit. Your article begs the question : How, in the current climate of poisoned political debate, can you move this kind of agenda forward? And, what is our equivalent of losing a hand?
Step back. WAY back. Keep going. More. Got your back against the wall? Good.
Look again at the broader picture of what is broken and you should see the root cause:
The end justifies the means. Yup, your basic sociopathic behavior.
The idea that, “I’m the boss and they can’t fire me”, or, “I’m the government and they don’t dare cross me.” The idea that, “I’m too big or important to be allowed to fail.” THE IDEA THAT RULES ARE FOR EVERYONE ELSE. No moral responsibility, no social conscience. Money and power are the targets; the order is interchangeable.
I don’t pretend to have a solution, or even a wild-ass guess at one, but maybe Bob’s right.
What a great idea to resolve the recession.
Thousands of people put back to work feeding and bathing the handless billionaires and millionaires of America.
Congratulations Cringley!!!
How many rich Bedouins get body parts chopped off? I think very few. The fallacy is belief that business and government are two opposing powers. In reality, power knows no such boundaries. The ruling elite spans both business and government; at the top, everything just blends together into one big country club.
And that’s a crucial point. Power is self-interested, regardless of the political ideology it exists in.
Those Bedouins who somehow did something that would have their body parts lost, should pay a big amount of compensation to the other party to save their body parts.
As they have money, they don’t do such stuff on their home soil. They go to the countries where they can do it either freely or with petty punishments. Fear of losing parts of your body, or losing your wealth (Yes your wealth can be taken from you as a punishment in shariah law) keeps even the worst evil in line. If you know that judge does not need to take bribe, as he already has a lot of money and he can easily take everything you have without any higher court appeals, you’d think twice.
The logic is simple: As God is the ultimate Judge, and if the Judge here made a mistake and gave a punishment exceeds the deed, then God will compensate it in the afterlife with a better place in heaven.
Believe it or not, that’s the logic.
My wife used to work at a place where there would be evening events, and she would help out with them for a few extra dollars. Of all the events that she assisted, the only bigwig CEO who showed up with a full set of bodyguards was Jack Welch of GE. She’d seen nothing else like it.
Of course, Jack was known for outsourcing everything that he could and generating a lot of ill-will in the process, so he obviously had Bedouin justice on his mind.
GOOGLE:
‘Saudi beheader, Beheading is a job, Should we rewrite koran? – Veoh’
for a very pedestrian discussion of beheading as a profession by one of Saudi Arabia’s most esteemed executioners. You’ll enjoy how he followed in his father’s footsteps and his son will do likewise (when he grows a bit more).
BTW he covers the procedure for “removing” hands and legs “all according to the Koran…”
Right on Bob!
It’s all about accountability. The dude who lost his head was held accountable.
We need to start by making Congress accountable to us instead of special interests. How? By passing a constitutional amendment limiting the amount of money special interests and lobbyists can provide to politicians.
Once the people have an equal voice at the table, then accountability can begin.
Those of us that argue for a smaller government do not necessarily mean a weaker government. Rather, we want a government that is large enough to do its job and no larger; is not overburdened by programs that it shouldn’t in involved with to start with.
For example, the present Federal Government – both Legislative and Executive branches – are involved in things that are properly by the Constitution the affairs of the States alone – e.g. drinking age, speed limits, etc. That is not to say that some things (e.g. Medical Devices and Drugs) ought not be regulated by a Federal entity (e.g. the FDA); but that there is a balance to be struck, and we are presently by and far on the side that leans to government that is too big.
The problem with having too much in the Federal government is that it is then a lot harder – many many times harder – to change it. Whereby, while not necessarily easy, it is easier for the States to change, and even compete amongst each other. (Too many businesses leaving the state? Determine what to change. Too many people leaving? Determine what to change.)
The Federal Government, OTOH, has no such incentive to change when necessary – the ebbes and flow of migration of business and populace do no matter at the Federal Level, but matter significantly at the state level.
So to suggest that a smaller government is necessarily weaker is outright wrong. Or to suggest that those advocating for a smaller government are necessarily advocating for a weaker governemtn is also outright wrong. Rather, we want a government that is large enough and strong enough to do its job, but no larger than necessary and no stronger than necessary.
So the Tea Partiers may advocate for a smaller government and in some areas less regulation, but they’ll also probably be the first for advocating very strong enforcement of those regulations that remain with enough regulators to do so.
Conversely, those that advocate for a large government tend to advocate for lots of regulation. However, it tends that too much regulation results in very weak enforcement for all of it, regardless of how many people you provide to enforce it.
The problem with letting the states compete with one another is that they will invariably game the system to their advantage and to the detriment of other states (“too many in poverty to support ?” reduce benefits and induce them to move to another state. “Don’t want to raise taxes on the voting public?” Levy a commuter tax on those living in neighboring states). The problem is, it is a zero-sum game. Whether you like the behemoth that is the federal government, it’s the only entity in the system that is responsible for the well-being of ALL of us in the U.S.
The problem is that the states prove you wrong.
1. The poor are the least able to move around. So reducing benefits, etc. will not induce them to move to another state. Another state offering a better economy to find a job in would – but that would be an incentive to keep them, as it raises state revenues and thus taxes.
2. States typically have reciprocal agreements with surrounding states – e.g. Virginia would with Maryland-West Virginia-North Carolina – that allows residents of those states to be treated equally if they are employed within the other states. This is typically done as it encourages people to work and/or live on either side of the state lines without having to worry about paying out of state taxes; and yes, I’ve been there/done that. It’s also done to simplify things for the states as it is usually taken that they are equally sharing with each other – much like peer agreements between ISPs.
The states are more responsive to their voters and their local economies than the Federal government is. It is little wonder why Silocon Valley grew up in California, with equivalents Virginia-Maryland-DC metro, and North Carolina’s Research Triangle. And in that respect what they do is often very good for the national economy. If places like Michigan, Ohio, or others that are at the bottom of the job growth, economic growth, and high on unemployment want to change that they can – by changing their state policies to grow those things in ways that are particular to and of interest to the voters. If the voters don’t want to do those things, and don’t mind the high unemployment or low growth, etc then that is their decision for their state.
Also, the Federal Government is not in charge of the well being of all the states. It is charged with (i) protecting the safety of the states by protecting the national borders, and (ii) resolving disputes between the States. The Federal Government does not have the power – per the Constitution – to tell a State how to do anything unless it falls into Inter-state commerce, is of national security, violates the Constitution (which the State’s constitution is required to conform to to start with, thus it shouldn’t be necessary unless the State’s Supreme Court makes a ruling in violation of the US Constitution), or is of a dispute between the States. Now I do realize that in the last 50 years there has been much in Congress that violates those things – Congress has very much overstepped its boundaries in those respects. The Federal Government does not have unlimited power, nor should it.
Reminds me of the IT Crowd..
Conrad Black, ‘the first rich man to go to prison in three hundred years’.
You will claim this series and the Presidential Contest are just a happy coincidence but I can’t see it. Anyway wasn’t it wonderful how well Deregulation worked for Reagan and The Bushes and how Clinton’s increased regulations hurt business and the economy?
We do a lot well in this country, but we can always do better. Lets call history a process of improvement.
I really want to know why the assumed response to “no government justice/law” is often the simple removal of “government” to create “no justice/law”?
We could try the principle of “liberty” in law enforcement and the judicial system, just like in other areas of American life. Seems like in many ways we already do. Things in this country only get to the Police or the Courts when we fail to use our freedom to work things out with our neighbors, so to speak. Let’s expand on that as a concept.
There are very well thought out conceptualizations of how competition in Justice and Enforcement would hypothetically workout as well as the concepts of liberty of thought, pursuits, and religion. Those later ideas being the ones this country was initially founded on. Obviously, we don’t live in a hypothetical world though.
However, I have heard we used to celebrate Independence Day by posting the Declaration of Independence in the “town square” so no one would forget why we started this country. Try reading that document and holding much of what we have heard over the last decade from our government leaders about how to keep us “safe” after 9/11 in your head at the same time. Currently, I see celebrations of the date “Fourth of July” and then those celebrations at home often used to program children about how dangerous burnt-out fireworks are and how, with-out the government-monopoly fire-fighting system we might burn each other’s houses down.
How things change. There was not always a government monopoly in fire-fighting in this country, you know… I know you do, it just might be hard to remember the stories.
If we can create in this country a drive to, through the numerous examples of failed “imposed control” and the more numerous examples of “liberty at work” (especially in our past), and get over the story of history we hear in government “invested” schools that starts, “And then the government passed a law that helped us…”, achieve widespread understanding that the cartelization or monopoly of a market (health care, money creation, fire-fighting, illegal drugs) is based on the threat of force, and that government as we have all known it through-out most of recorded history is based on “Do what we say, and don’t try to successfully resist our agents when they arrive to end your liberty or they will kill you – no argument”, the same founding principle of any other basis of “Human Action” founded on the principle of force, the sooner we might be able to try to move to a system designed “by the people and for the people” to be based on “mutual consent of the governed”. Life via mutual consent, aka Liberty, would be just as effective in Justice and Enforcement as in the other areas of our lives. We could still learn a lot from some of Native American “governments” supplanted in this geography by this country, in that particular regard.
If our society was Bedoin, it would look like consentual Bedoin justice. We have developed into the United States of America. If we got together and designed such a system and agreed to live by it, we would take-off ahead of the rest of the world in the same way we did during our development from colony to the country we are now.
It doesn’t seem possible to me to do this until we fix the money in this country first, however. If we cannot first fix the way we misunderstand wealth and misallocate money in this country, I cannot see us achieving such a grand dream.
Now, don’t get me wrong… I have heard from what, in my opinion is a reliable source, “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.”. (Romans 13:1 NKJV)
However, the same source says “Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.” (James 5:1-3 NKJV)
Now, money in those days was gold, and we learned in science class gold only corrodes when mixed with other metals. Mixing gold with other metals was how Kings and Emperors inflated the money supply when gold was money. Now we “quantitatively ease” or “peg” the currencies to “print money”. It is all the same thing, inflating the money supply. Money supplies are inflated for every currency in every country on Earth now, right?
Inflating the money supply doesn’t just corrode the money now, but the other result is the same “Indeed the wages of the laborers who [harvested] your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out” (James 5: NKJV). We would now say they get wages for “producing”, not “harvesting”.The “fraud” here is creating gold money that corrodes, which is to say increasing the money supply. This is the Bible’s description of what God hears from the defrauding of laborers through defrauding them of a stable, fair, just money for their wages in the “harvest”.
All money spent by workers in the economy must first be earned as a wage by a worker by spending the “wealth” of their talent on the act of production and thus receiving a claim on the total wealth/production of that society in the form of the money earned as wages. If their claim to the output of society they earn when they work is held by “corroding money”, they are being defrauded. They need that money earned to trade from other people for a share of the wealth of society, that is to say the same amount of wealth they spent through their labor using the wealth of their talent in the marketplace.
If the money or monies of a society is or are sound, the divide doesn’t grow but instead shrinks. In a sound money economy, a more productive economy reduces the price of everything over time, except wages – they can increase. More produced… more pay. More produced… a stable money supply chases ever more wealth of goods and services produced and thus the unit cost must go down if the quantity of money to be used to pay for the increasing amount of goods and services does not increase even faster.
The Bible says God is very displeased when workers are defrauded from a just wage through the manipulation of the money supply by those whom He has given the authority to print money and use it. They increase the divide between the rich holders of the capital of society at the top and the wage earner at the bottom, because those rich then end up with “heaped up treasure” through fraud instead of their just share of the wealth of society for the amazing sorts of accomplishments they contribute to society. Stolen versus earned.
Our founding fathers knew this. They disliked central banks, insisted on coinage made from citizen-provided gold for money, and we had a society where things were called “as solid as the dollar”. We should have that again. It is, very simply, the right thing to do.
If we don’t do it, should we wait for God to act on these cries he is hearing from these fraudulent wages? He asks us to love justice and mercy in these “in God we Trust” United States of America, and if we don’t and he loves us we will continue to find ourselves able to say, in these tough economic times, “The Lord has chastened me severely, But He has not given me over to death.” (Psalms 118:18 NKJV)
The fraud is also the government backed programs – things like Social Security for which we are all taxed (thus the government takes money) on the promise of benefits that many now will never see.
Don’t get me wrong – things like Welfare and Medicaide/Medicare are good things in many respects, and there are many citizens that defraud them too – by taking benefits they don’t deserve. Those programs need major reform so they serve the purposes they were meant to really serve and minimize the fraud going on inside of them – such as women having child after child after child just to be able to get the welfare checks for each child instead of earning a living, and not really spending the welfare checks properly on the children, but their own greedy desires.
But the government spending $1.25 for every $1 it takes in is simply fraud on its citizens as the previous commentor describes.
Ah, but WHO loses the hand? The CEO? The CFO? The entire board of directors? Or the inevitable middle-management fall-guy schlub who “went rogue” and “on his own” evaporated a couple of trillion dollars worth of wealth.
I know you’re being ironic, but that’s why societies with simple social structures have simple — and often brutal — punishments for asocial behaviour, while complex societies get more nuanced. It’s not that we’re nicer, it’s that simple deterrents don’t work in a complex system.
Frankly, I’m sure they don’t work in modern (and I use the term laughingly) Saudi Arabia either. It’s not really still a nomadic society, but its social structure has been frozen in place by arch-reactionary conservatism. That’s why it’s never been able to capitalize on its vast wealth to build a dynamic society.
That said, I agree that CORPORATIONS should face a kind of corporate amputation if they repeatedly violate the law. Do it again, lose, say, your merchant banking division. Do it a fourth time and get broken up like Standard Oil in the early 20th century.
If the trustbusters of the gilded age could do it, we can do it now.
Bob,
I’ve felt for a long time that public stoning is a much overlooked punishment. Maybe we could national lotteries for the chance to toss a rock.
My solution for too big to fail:
Any institution deemed TBTF may not be a limited
liability corporation. Their owners are now on the
hook for potential losses. So, let them fail.
An interesting side affect is that a failing corporation’s
stock price could actually go negative as owners
pay others to assume the liability.
FYI – I could be wrong, but I believe all the “Too Big To Fail” organization were full Corporations, not LLCs. Most are probably incorporated in Delware as that is the best state to be incorporated in. I’m not sure an LLC could achieve that size before being forced to change their corporate status – either by their own accountants, or by the government – as each type of entity has its uses, and when you get to a certain size, and LLC is useless.
And as was written about FaceBook, you get too many investors of the right (or wrong) kind and you may have to go public too.
I believe there is nothing official about “TBTF”. It’s simply a governmental decision as to whether or not it chosses to help out an organization. The government may decide to do that simply because the organization’s failure will hurt more people, through its impact on the economy, than it will hurt all taxpayers collectively. The government itself has always been deemed TBTF, hence it is always allowed to tax, print money, conscript citizens, at a greater cost to the taxpayers than any LLC, Corporation, or business.
Everyone seems to forget that the USA is just the USA. When the rich and powerful do not like the game here they play it in London or where ever.
Then you can call your own interest rates.
The big boys have fubarred the whole western world.
I believe the local illegal loan sharks are offering a better deal.
I’d like to suggest changing “the USA” to “life”.
At last some understanding of rewards and punishments. The higher the reward the worse the punishment if its fraud!
Now that corporations are people, we should be able to execute them.
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Thinks for your sharing. I have intering.
Here you go… http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Henri_regnault_maures_grena.jpg