Sitting here in Santa Rosa drinking too much coffee while the turkey cooks I’ve been reading the Black Friday sale fliers and you know what’s missing? Desktop computers. Radio Shack doesn’t even have a desktop on sale tomorrow and even Walmart has only one. This season marks the triumph of notebook and tablet computers I’d say, though not at chez Cringely. At our house we’ve just gone thin client, instead.
With five people in the house we’ve been making do with one desktop and three notebooks for family use (don’t mess with Daddy’s PCs). You’d think with the number of iPod Touches and Roku boxes we have as well that there would hardly ever be a squabble over computers but that’s not the case.
My decision to go thin client was not based on cost savings. It was the most versatile way for me to create a standardized desktop computing experience. By repurposing as servers three computers I already had I was able to add five workstations (one for each person — even me) that can run any mix of Linux, Mac, and Windows applications.
Each workstation has a 23-inch Hannspree 1920-by-1080 LCD display ($139 at Tiger Direct) with a Chip PC LXP2310 thin client ($166 from NewEgg) literally Velcro’d to the back of the display. Add an extra-short DVI cable and generic PC keyboard and mouse and each seat runs around $350. But given that I can beat that by $52 tomorrow at WalMart for an HP desktop with an 18.5-inch LCD display, why go thin client at all?
There are several good reasons but the most obvious ones are ages 9, 7, and 5.
Little boys break things, spill things, and leave things out in the rain. The advantage of a desktop computer is you know where it is and have a much better shot at controlling access. They can’t put coins or toys inside a thin client. If they spill on the keyboard it’s a $19 replacement. And with total parity in screen size and power (nobody ever wanted to use the netbook, for example) there’s no more squabbling.
Every application I own is available at every desk so my kids can learn to make fake ID’s with PhotoShop without putting at risk any family pictures. Every user is backed-up hourly and all storage is mirrored both on- and off-site.
Having set up three workstations for the kids I quickly added two more because I wanted to share their screen size versatility and speed. Yes, speed.
I went a little overboard when it came to the Mac server, upgrading my 2011 Mac Mini Server to eight gigs of 1033MHz DDR3 RAM and a pair of RAID0 128-gig Solid State Drives with an external 1TB LaCie Thunderbolt drive. My original thought was that I’d use the Mini as my workstation while also running the kids in background using the Aqua Connect OS X terminal server, but Aqua Connect messed with the DisplayPort so I had to use the box as a pure server. And now I’m glad I did because it is, if anything, faster while still supporting all the external interfaces like audio, webcams, etc. that I need.
Best of all, computing at our house is now silent. And for that I am truly thankful.
Well I’m first this time. Looks like I finally accomplished something in life.
What OS is running the thin client? I thought about this to add a mac to the mix here at our house, but wasn’t sure if OS X could project to the X11 desktops. Do you use something like NX?
It’s probably an ultra thin client, just handling the graphics and communication with the server.
The little Plug PC is running Linux. They make a Windows CE version that costs $20 more. It runs a little application that can talk to any RDP, NX, or VNC server. All the heavy lifting is in the server and all workstations are on 100 mbps Ethernet.
Robert, thanks for the follow-up. Linux as client is actually preferred but how do you then bring Windows and Mac apps over? VNC? NX? Or do your kids switch: connect under protocol one for app A, protocol B for app B etc? Can’t be.
Everything here is RDP.
Oh, cool. In remote single app mode, which also works from the mac?
You really don’t need to spend $166 to accomplish this. Since all the heavy lifting is done on the server, almost any pc will do. You can get p4s on kijiji for $20. Install ubuntu and an RDP client and you’ve got your thin client.
A lot of the old dell boxes with the case fans on rubber feet are pretty much silent as well. The clicking of the keyboard is the noisiest thing you will hear.
I believe the title sums it all: “Silence is golden”.
If you hook P4s to every work station, it hogs the desktop and, unless you disable the fans, you will still hear it running. And they were far from silent, if I remember correctly…
You know what “silence is golden” to me about this particular post thread? The total lack of “Macs rule, PCs drool” commentary. Its all about suggestions about what can work best for you.
My wife, who switched to an iMac last year after building her own PCs for two decades, bought Windows 7 for it so she could beta test Star Wars: The Old Republic over the weekend. After setting up Boot Camp and Parallels, she dove into Windows and gamed her heart out. I asked her, now that you’ve been doing Mac for a while and have Windows again, what her impressions were. She said, “both OSes are really good at putting an application on your screen.”
I don’t think the workstation per se, will ever go completely away. I do high-end graphics, video, web design, etc. My main system is my HP laptop – it runs 2 monitors, supports and external keyboard, & various IO ports. While 90% of the time I just use the laptop remotely, there are times when both monitors are neccessary.
I DO plan on migrating to a tablet computer when they become powerful enough (& they will) and all the software I need is ported to the tablet OS. It will be soon – Adobe is already all over it. But sometimes you just need some serious monitor real estate. But workstations are dead horses – only corps & business will be the buyers & they don’t even replace them that often.
We’re smack in the middle of a new paradigm – mobile is it. The genie is out of the bottle and not going back in.
Ironically, my family has much in common with a bigger business. It’s a little like running a call center where every worker needs to keep the Cartoon Network running in a little window.
Don’t ya just love it?! Hey Cringe – are you going to do the “naked” Christmas image again this year? It wouldn’t be the holidays without it! 🙂
Here’s a stubborn problem, we have two 30″ monitors under our roof, one Apple Cinema display, one HP. Once you go 30, you can’t go back. Seriously. These run on the old dual link display port. We are in an upgrade conundrum. PCs abandoned big screens a while back. Apple only supports dual link with an adapter that eats up your precious thunderbolt hole and apparently works sometimes:
http://store.apple.com/us/reviews/MB571Z/A
I’ve been using Apple connector with various Macs (Mini DisplayPort MacBook Pros, Mini Display and Thunderbolt iMacs) to a 30-inch Samsung monitor (which must be nearly four years old now) and have had no problems.
I love using the latest Core i7 iMac which I recently added two external monitors to because I had them there (the 30-incher is on an older iMac downstairs) and don’t have any other Thunderbolt peripherals…
When are we getting TB peripherals? I want a hub with various ports like what is built-in, like what is built in the the overpriced 27-inch Thunderbolt Display.
I wouldn’t count on big business to prop up desktops much longer. I work for a 14k+ employee company; we are all laptop. My desk has a docking station, monitor, keyboard and trackball. As soon as smart phones have the power and capacity of my laptop I fully expect to carry one device – a smart phone (or whatever we are calling them at that point). I don’t think we’ll be fully “dumb” any time soon, either because a set up like Bob’s can’t handle enterprise-level software development needs or because companies are slow to adopt such seemingly radical hardware paradigm shifts. If the former it is probably a matter of economics, not computing power.
“You know what’s missing? Desktop computers”
Cars vs. Trucks. Happy Thanksgiving Ballmer. 😉
Now that the “car” can do all the work of the “truck” without much of a price penalty, I don’t think the analogy holds up anymore (if it ever did–I’m not even sure which is supposed to be which). The turning point for me was when I realized that the only applications pushing the upgrade cycle were graphics-intensive games, making the versatility of the desktop redundant. If you’re not playing the latest PC games, you can easily make due with XP on an aging notebook almost indefinitely. And as we know, many people and businesses are doing just that. I happen to use a MacBook now, but replacing the hard drive is relatively easy, and it is the only upgrade I’ve made in many years. I will never upgrade to Lion, mark my words.
Sean, the way I see it, games have always driven the PC industry by constantly pushing for faster processors, more memory, etc., which in turn, gives developers of other apps more room to create more robustness to office apps, video and photo editing, etc.
For the average Joe, a WinXP machine would suffice for basic office apps, web browsing, and e-mail. I wouldn’t use one of the older netbooks for streaming HD quality content though. In fact, my experience with notebooks streaming SD quality content has been pretty bad as well…
As long as you can live with running older versions of software, you can extend the life of your PC for several more years, but as content becomes more processing intensive, and apps become more robust, regardless of whether you’re playing the latest games, you’ll start to feel the lag…
Back in the day, I used to think that I really didn’t need much more than 100MB HDD with 128MB RAM and a 486 DX2/66 running Win3.11/DOS5 in SVGA for just my Office apps and a few games. Then the web became more graphics intensive I needed more. Then came long MP3s, I needed even more. Soon after that, it was MPEG-2 and AVI. Then digital cameras…. well, you get the picture. Little by little, the requirements become more intense just to do things that today, we take for granted.
I like the thin client idea. By upgrading a central set of computers, I can run robust applications on multiple clients, thereby reducing the costs of running so many computers, along with their physical footprint…
From an IT perspective this is something I’ve been expecting for some time. The vast majority of folks use their computing devices for a very limited number of specific tasks (web + social net, e-mail, IM, video chat, etc.) and the horsepower in an I-Pad is pretty much all they’ll ever need. Until someone comes up with the yet-undiscovered-uber-app-that-requires-256-cores-and-a-terrabyte-of-RAM we’ve hit the wall in terms of providing raw hardware performance to most users. Face it, what’s the point of buying a Ferrari when you’re never going to use it for anything other that bringing home groceries?
What this trend indicates is that the price of desktop computers, which has steadily dropped while performance increased, is likely to start heading back into the stratosphere again. Aside from hardcore gamers and graphics professionals, the market is rapidly evaporating. And while it’s still a bit of a stretch to consider Joe-average-user setting up a thin client network at home, it’s entirely possible that the Apple TV (or some as yet unseen device) will be the “just plug it in and it works” thin client for the masses. Twenty years on, Ellison will finally see his vision realized.
This isn’t bad news for bleeding edge hardware manufacturers – there will always be a “price is not an issue” market for top-tier products. What does seem possible is that the financial incentives that have kept Moore’s law operating for the past fifty years may finally be coming to an end – how long will it be before the cost of a device that does everything you need it to do is $9.95… or is included as a freebie in a box of cereal. At what point will the cost of R&D exceed the funds available from the dwindling number of “whale” customers?
Heck, when was the last time anyone upgraded a digital watch.
“Until someone comes up with the yet-undiscovered-uber-app-that-requires-256-cores-and-a-terrabyte-of-RAM we’ve hit the wall in terms of providing raw hardware performance to most users.” If someone comes up with an app like that they’ll probably run it in the cloud, unless the app requires low latency or very high bandwidth that the internet cannot provide. Software companies would prefer to use cloud computing anyway to give them more control over selling and licensing, even if the customers would prefer to download and install the app themselves.
We’re spending our Thanksgiving 750 miles from home. Ours too was an interesting holiday from a technology point of view. Our family of six, 2 parents and 4 kids arrived in NC with 4 laptops and 5 smart phones. We completely overwhelmed grandma’s Internet service. The drive from Missouri was pretty rainy. A couple times I tethered my laptop to my phone and got pretty good Internet service as we cruised down I-40 in Tennessee. I was able to keep track of weather and road conditions. We’ve had a nice holiday break and will be heading back home on Saturday.
“Our family of six, 2 parents and 4 kids arrived in NC with 4 laptops and 5 smart phones. We completely overwhelmed grandma’s Internet service.”
“The drive from Missouri was pretty rainy. A couple times I tethered my laptop to my phone and got pretty good Internet service as we cruised down I-40 in Tennessee”
Three thoughts…
1) Old song came to mind “over the river and through the woods to Grandmother’s house we go”
2) Glad Grandma has Internet service (that eliminates part of the sting of the next comment)
3) What in the world are you all doing taking all those laptops and phones to Grandma’s?
Just go, get away from it all, talk with one another, catch up with the grandparents, play games, read a book, take a break from the virtual e-world we live in, take a walk in a different neighborhood, reconnect as a family.
It’s just so sad… I can picture the day… each kid off on his own in his own corner and little world with his or her smartphone (texting friends, playing games)–even the adult parents at their laptops catching up on e-mail and doing work projects while Grandmother does the cooking and Grandpa gets the football game on.
Heck, why even take both laptops and smartphones? Just crazy!
Grandma got lots of quality time. She definitely was not neglected.
My daughter and I had some work to do over the holidays so we brought our work laptops. We have two kids in college. They brought their laptops so they could do some homework. Our kids drove grandma to her appointments and to the stores. The smart phones provided the navigation.
Our travel logistics were complicated. We had family members coming and going at different times. The phones helped keep track of flights and kept us in contact with our kids while they were traveling.
The two college kids flew home today (Friday) so the can go to their schools big rivalry football game. Our daughter flies home tomorrow. The rest of us and the dog drive home tomorrow. All totaled, grandma will have family visiting her for 9 days. She will be glowing and bragging to her friends for weeks to come.
So multiple thin clients can log in to the Mac server at the same time? I thought Mac is couldn’t do that
He mentioned Aqua Connect – https://www.aquaconnect.net/
Few tech questions:
* to run all of Mac/Windows/Linux, is it one Mac OSX server, with virtual machines for Linux and Windows apps?
* Sound works via USB speakers – is that right?
* Is performance okay? I imagine with 5 workstations being used at once – maybe someone applying a Photoshop filter, someone else playing a flash game, something compiling on another, a first person shooter running on another, and a videos playing the last – that it could start to chug a bit for all users. Or is that not right?
* Pity the Chip PC LXP2310 thin client only goes to 1600×1200 res – Full HD of 1920×1080, or even 1900×1200, would be nice. Multi-monitor would be even nicer.
* There’s a chance the raspberry pi ( https://www.raspberrypi.org/ ) might provide a replacement for the Chip PC, once it’s released. That would bring the price down + openness up + workstation grunt up (but at the cost of increasing the amount of do-it-yourself stuff that needs doing).
* Other than the stuff above, it seems like a very nice, cost-effective, silent, and robust solution. Bravo!
It runs rdesktop which allows talking to multiple servers. In addition to the Mac Mini I have an old PC running Red Hat Linux and another running Windows 7 strictly (so far) for the game Fusion Fall and to run PlayLater (DVR software for Netflix) because we’re an all-Speed Racer all the time kind of family.
I have one example of the WinCE model too, which runs RDP 6.0. I might fire them up for a side-by-side comparison.
Hm, depends on the blog. For example at gizmag.com they are positively overrunning with desktop stories:
World’s smallest desktop (Lenovo Q180):
https://www.gizmag.com/lenovo-ideacentre-q180/20601/
World’s smallest computer on a HDMI dongle (FXI cotton candy):
https://www.gizmag.com/fxi-cotton-candy/20548/
World’s biggest desktop multitouch pad (40″ EXOdesk):
https://www.gizmag.com/exodesk-multitouch/20593/
Looking at the Plug PC LXP 2310 data sheet, they claim to have “local media acceleration”. Inside there is an RMI Alchemy™ Au1250™ Media Processor, which according to the data sheet can do standard definition MPEG2/4 only and no mention of H264.
So how do your kids watch Youtube?
Great project.
Can you use thin client for gaming? I guess you could rely on consoles for gaming but the consoles are stuck in a bit of a rut at the moment with most of the innovation happening on pc and mobile devices.
Hi. A couple more tech, questions:
1. Do you think your configuration would work over 108MBS+ WiFi?
2. In order to offer Windows 7 desktops do you need a version of Windows Server?
3. Do the licensing restrictions/costs pose a problem for #2?
Thanks.
In the UK the Chip PC’s are being sold for $500 – by the “official distributors” – no way cost effective!
£187.47 here: https://www.instant-axess.co.uk/pd-chip-pc-plug-pc-lxp-2310-uk.cfm
Typical “change the $ to a £” pricing for Europe…
And now for something completely different, Raspberry Pi
https://www.raspberrypi.org/
Demo of Quake 3 on the Pi,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_mDuJuvZjI
We’re a house full of macs over here!
Macramé is very relaxing too, you know !
Hi,
What virtualization package did you use on your OS X server?
cheers, Moga
Fantastic!! I am have been contemplating the same sort of setup for my family with 3 kids (4,9,11) and two adults. I was thinking of Windows Server type solution. But a Mac solution would work too. Keep up the great work and info!!
interesting news for me…thanks.. 😀
Huh?! What?! RAID0 and SSDs? Bob, you’re taking your life in your hands. SSDs are fast. And unstable. There’s a great bit on Coding Horror about how, of the dozen they’ve used, none has lasted more than a year. And you’re making your entire setup dependent on that…
Interesting – I tried this sort of idea about 10 years ago when I replaced our office network and computers. We spent about $30k on computers and software but it fell flat on its face of course but it sounds like it’s relatively easy to do these days.
It’s always puzzled me that the computer market has virtually (sic) ignored this type of networked system for homes and small businesses – at least as far as producing an off the shelf solution that actually works and can be installed by a non-geek.
Actually this is what places used to do 20+ years ago. But the data stream got too big for the network at the time, and processing locally got cheaper… so everyone gets a PC. Now that transfer rates are fast, and tiny devices with significant computing power (to compress the data stream) are cheap enough, people can go back to thinking about a client-server model.
However, I think the general population doesn’t care about doing this. There isn’t a whole lot of space saving to be had when you are talking about a monitor and keyboard. There isn’t the portability with the laptop. The thing you do get is to have your files accessible from every location–but that probably isn’t worth the setup work for most people. (Not to mention if all your files are on the cloud, you might not care anyway.)
Always look forward to your columns ! Interesting setup. What is your current TV and net access setup ??
Bob – thanks for this write up. I’ll be using it for ammo when discussing why the public Internet access computers in the library I support should be converted to thin clients. No, our users aren’t 9, 7 or 5, but you wouldn’t know it when you look at the repair logs of the last 5 years.
The appliance-ification of computers.
I see something disturbing in that lack of desktop computers, that you haven’t touched on. You’re clearly making a working situation for yourself, but it still depends on “general purpose (desktop) computers.” I see something more than a little unsettling in the tablets, and that is that they are approaching appliances. I get this ugly feeling that there are those out there who don’t like general-purpose computers – they like tablets – and they like “app stores.”
As long as the general-purpose computer is still around we’re OK – maybe. Another fear is how long will it be until manufacturing volume declines turn the general-purpose computer back into a high-priced, limited distribution item. How long until low-priced computing becomes the realm of the appliance – and the app store?
Dont worry phred, in a few years the “thin client” tablets will be hanging on walls. They will all have cameras operating 24/7 to ensure our “safety”, and content and communications will be monitored because national security is everyone’s job. Only a rabid terrorist would dare own a stand alone desktop computer.
Or worse…a music pirate.
He’s probably doing something like this on his Windows box:
https://www.missingremote.com/guide/how-enable-concurrent-sessions-windows-7-service-pack-1-rtm
I am a strong believer that technology not only makes the learning process much more fun, but it also creates allows a more hands-on experience for kids! If you are interested in other educational products for kids, I would check out our educational apps! 🙂
Best Regards
Wombi
https://www.wombiapps.com
I think we need a network diagram…
Jasa Setting Mikrotik dan Proxy Cepat
Please do follow up on this post: I’m definitely interested in more detailed information and instructions. I’ve got 7 kids (all <11 yrs old) and would LOVE to find a solution to the IT problem(s) in this house. I've got access to old workstations, but have no experience using Mac or Linux (just Windows). I'd love to understand more about the hardware/software configuration you're using for your family & kids.
It’s so quiet now, the whole house is like a recording studio – perfect for the comeback of the audio edition of the I, Cringely column!
😉 😉
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