There is no joy in Round Rock.
Early this morning the database servers at Dell Computer went down hard. The company is unable to accept orders on its web site and almost 5000 Dell sales reps trying to meet their quotas in the last week of the quarter are unable to book sales. Today’s loss for the company is already over $50 million and rising.
The database system in question is Oracle running atop NonStop Unix on a Tandem NonStop (now stopped — what an irony) system made, of course, by Hewlett Packard. So Michael Dell is pulling his hair out at this moment while he waits to be saved by HP.
It could be a long wait.
I guess NonStop means never having to say you’re sorry.
I can’t find any news about this, any more information?
I can’t find any info on this either. Sauce, Mr.Cringely?
[citation needed]
Also, don’t NonStop servers generally run NonStop SQL? Isn’t NonStop like Oracle’s competition or something? I’m so confused
here’s a baseline – according to following, Dell says they should be up around 10am (PDT) http://twitter.com/#!/search/dell%20down%20sundae_lipzz
Michael Dell suffering? Ah, life is good.
I think he should shut it down and give the money back to the shareholders.
Brilliant!
Looks like Larry Ellison is going to be selling some Sun servers to Dell.
What did Dell do to bring in the revenge angle?
That’s just me being a smart-ass. Dell and HP vie for industry sale leadership. If this glitch leads to a down quarter it will hurt Dell on Wall Street. Dell’s loss is HP’s gain, or that’s the theory.
OK Bob. I was just wondering had Dell done something bad that I didn’t know
about. Are you going to say anything about HP not spinning off the PC division?
5th! this is getter harder boberto! too many commenters now.
You need to wake up before noon California time. 🙂
Pretty sure dell would have some pretty strict SLA’s around it’s NONSTOP system, e.g. it’s non stop. Be interesting to see the blowback to HP. Of course the damage is already done and it’s easier to apologise once you have your sales book for the quarter!
SLAs are for lawyers. They don’t offer any real protection.
What the dell went wrong?!?!
I thought Non-Stop meant you were absolutely going to stop somewhere you didn’t want to, but didn’t have to change planes.
No, “direct” is the airline word that means you are going to stop somewhere you don’t want to. A “direct” flight from city A to city B absolutely will stop in one or more other places, and you might even have to get off the plane and change to another one, usually larger or smaller, but with the same flight number. If you don’t mind stopping, but don’t want to change planes, then look for the “same-plane” keyword. Only “non-stop” means the flight is scheduled from A to B without, uh stopping.
Maybe Vladmir Putin can send over a couple of his IT techs to help out at Dell. Return the favor Mikey offered a few years back…
LOL I shouldn’t be laughing, but the irony is too good. Every Dell I’ve had, was a piece of junk (and I’ve had 4 of them), and now I find out they don’t seem to trust their own hardware to run their own business. Epic.
And I’ve bought about 1000 of them and found them to be pretty solid, aside from one batch that came with defective RAM. And their laptops were horrible about 10 years ago. We do rely on HP for our server architecture, they gave us a smoking hot deal.
I agree, they’re fine, and a good value.
I’ve only used Dell’s for about ten years now, both PC’s and laptops. They’ve all been pretty reliable. Before Dell, I had a Compaq…. now that was a piece of junk. Of course, it could’ve been the fact that it was running Windows ME.
Well, and HP just decided to keep there PC’s.
https://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/27/hp-reverses-course-will-keep-pc-unit/
Bob,
Funny, all the ads popping on this page are for HP !!!
I’m pretty sure they’re personalized. Mine are all Cisco….
I don’t see any ads, just white space around the content. Perhaps you need a hosts file.
hmmm, best-in-class all around, and not good enough.
most outfits that valued $50 million worth of business might have, oh, say, a little something extra in the back room at another location, and would survive with rotating MX records for loadshare. Oracle works really well with multiple database servers all over Hell and gone backing each other up for real-time failover..
guess Dell cheaped out in infrastructure design here.
Well! It’s not as if they were ordering anything important like iPads or iPhones.
I worked at Tandem before they got bought by HP. In the 1980s (probably still do but can’t vouch for it), Merrill Lynch ran a datacenter in the some buildings across from the World Trade Center that was half Tandem and half Amdahl. I was there in 1989 when they got hit by lightning; all the Amdahls went down and stayed down for three days. The Tandem computers lost half their processors and a third of their disc drives and kept right on processing. No data lost, nothing delayed.
I am completely shocked that a Nonstop system would come to a halt like this. They’ve been engineered from the ground up to prevent this very sort of thing. Or at least, they used to be. As of my last employment date with them in 2001, there were Nonstop systems in the field that had run continuously – zero downtime! – for over five years.
Seems to me HP has taken its eye off the ball.
I think I met Tim back in the day when I was a Tandem customer … regardless, his comment is accurate: the whole idea behind Nonstop was, well, not stopping but merely degrading. Can’t image a Tandem fully crashing unless there were a significant number of changes made by Compaq/HP in the last 10 years or so.
I interviewed at Tandem in the late 90’s, months before they were bought by Compaq. Seemed like a cool place to work. IIRC, their machines were MIPS based at the time.
Interestingly, enough, one of the managers I talked to was a former HP’er.
@Tim Janke: RXC has his facts wrong. Oracle does not run on NonStop, so either the system failing is running Oracle on some other platform, or Dell is using one of the NonStop databases.
If it is some other platform, then you need not be shocked, since NonStop is not responsible for the failure. If it is, in fact, a NonStop system running a NonStop database that has failed, the fault is unlikely to be the fault of HP not minding the store.
Dell has been trying to migrate off of the NonStop system for years, and has not been able to get a replacement working. Perhaps this incident is the result of an attempt to cutover to a replacement system that has fallen on its face.
Oracle & HP UNIX. What a horrible combo.
They should have run Tandem NonStop OS and a real database instead.
HP NonStop servers do not run UNIX or Oracle. They run a proprietary scalable fault-tolerant message-based cluster operating system called NonStop Kernel (NSK) that provides a UNIX-like ‘personality’, and a proprietary database called NonStop SQL, which is tightly integrated with the cluster operating system, and fully leverages the scalability and fault tolerance of the platform.
As noted elsewhere, a properly maintained NonStop system can run for years with no system outages. Components can and will fail, but the system will tolerate the outages and keep on processing while the failure is corrected. That is why NonStop systems are so widely used in telcos, banks, and stock exchanges.
The key is proper maintenance. Dell has been trying to get its ordering system off NonStop for many years, especially since Tandem’s acquisition by Compaq back in the mid-nineties.
If this report is true, my guess is that Dell may have been skimping on maintenance.
Jim Peters has this correct. RXC has some of his facts wrong, though I don’t know which ones. Oracle does not run on NonStop,period. Either Dell is no longer using the NonStop systems for their database or he is wrong that they are running Oracle on NonStop.
Here’s verification
http://twitter.com/#!/search/dell%20predditfeed
The source for that link is this column.:)
There’s old school Tandem NonStop Kernel, which is a proprietary OS with a Unix personality called OSS. This is the system that runs NonStop SQL.
The system that fits Cringely’s description is the old Tandem Integrity system, a port of SVR4 to a MIPS system. This was rebranded NonStop Unix, somewhere along the way. I think Oracle had a port to this platform, back in the day.
cheers,
Andrew
I am pretty sure that Dell didn’t come into possession of any HP NonStop Unix systems … and if they did, they’re on their own I suspect … long since dropped.
(To add to confusion, wasn’t that old Unix line from Tandem call Integrity?) ….
But anyhow, Jim is absolutely right – as much as folks have clamored for a port of Oracel, like a port of SAP that runs atop the OSS (POSIX) personality, neither vendor has shown any enthusiasm … NonStop indeed may degrade but stop? Never …
Whatever happen to fall over protection in a remote location for mission critical systems – This sort of problem should just be inconvient not a show stopper.
Looks like good practice just went out the window…
Is cringely.com hosted on HP NonStop also? Is it just me or is the theme MIA? Two different machines both running Safari on Mac show a very non-styled site at the moment.
Theme’s down. Running firefox on 7 and I’ve got the same thing.
Good riddance to Dell and HP, both make shoddy products with horrible customer service.
Makes you wonder if why Apple didn’t resurrect xServe…
I smiled. Thanks Bob!
Not because of anyone’s discomfort or revenue loss. Not, more importantly, at the bad service actual paying customers are going to receive.
But, yes, to the irony and yes to continued proof that HP are no longer the company they once were (bit vague I know but I have no deep insder knowledge except that gleaned from here, just a recent customer who got very, very poor customer service. So bad in fact I took the laptop right back to the shop, got a refund and bought a Sony…)
Yes, in my own ironic way, at the fact that Dell sell sooo many units in such a short time. I don’t know much about the company itself but I’m simply amazed that turnover is so high! I thought we were in a recession?!?
I once worked on a Sequoia system that was supposed to be redundant so that if one component went down the system would call home and the part shipped to the office while the other component took over the work. One day a board showed up and the MIS manager decided that since the system was a “non stop” system he should be able to swap out the defective board while the system was up and running. You guessed it, they system went down, bring down the entire mail order system … oops!
Nothing is 100% no matter what people think.
I’ve worked with both Tandem NonStop and Stratus fault tolerant systems. Both had the sort of hot-swap anything capability your manager thought the Sequoia had. It sounds the Sequoia was merely a fully redundant system rather than a true fault tolerant one.
The Stratus was particularly cute with the way it dialed home for a replacement part as soon as anything went down. In fact, they had so many false repair calls due to sysadmins showing their mates how many boards they could pull out without killing the system that they added a 3 minute grace period before it rang home so the sysadmin could do his demo and easily put it back together before the grace period expired. This was a good machine – good enough for IBM to rebadge it as System/88.
However, the Stratus is/was merely a fault tolerant box with sufficient built-in battery to tide it over a 2-3 hour power outage. The Tandem Nonstop, on the other hand, was (even back in ’82/83) also a fully geographically distributed system. It could be a single box with similar fault tolerance to the Stratus, but it could also be configured with up to 16 system cabinets placed anywhere in the world and 16 CPUs per cabinet. A program running on any of those CPUs could keep its shadow copy on any other CPU on the network and access any disk, whose mirror could also be anywhere on the network, as though it was local. Now, that’s *true* fault tolerance: the shadow process was never more than one i/o operation out of date, Guardian provided full distributed transaction management, and if a failure promoted the shadow process to prime, its first action was to create a new shadow some place else, so failovers were almost invisible to the user.
That said, at one point we had a single box Tandem and a Stratus in a small computer room for use by two development projects. We came in one Monday to find both were down: one of the dual Tandem power supplies had shorted out, tripping the computer room circuit breaker, with the result that both systems ran their batteries flat and fell over during the weekend. That happened twice. However, with its non-redundant power feed, that computer room was very far from being a sane or sensible production installation.
Martin: Your description of the NonStop system is close to correct, but is off in a few details.
The network allows up to 255 systems (each of up to 16 CPUs), not just 16 systems. You might have been thinking of the high-speed fiber-optic interconnect, which had a limit of 15 systems within a few thousand meters of each other to be connected together and be part of the 255-system network.
You could not have a process-pair or mirrored disc pair divided among two systems of the network. Backup processes and backup discs had to be in the same local 16-CPU system as their primaries. You could not have a process-pair or mirrored disc pair divided among two systems of the network.
Aside from those two points, you are right about Tandem (now HP) NonStop — a very capable system since the early 1980s and still ahead of its competition in many ways (though, sadly, not in market share). The network on the NonStop system makes files, processes, and devices anywhere in the network be accessible just the same as local files, processes, and devices, making distributed applications rather easy to set up and maintain. The local cluster of up to 16 CPUs presents a single system image to the operator and programmer. It is not completely transparent that remote objects are on a different system (you must include the system name in the references to them, backup processes and mirrors are restricted to both parts on the same local system, and security takes note of system boundaries), but in most regards, they are just like local objects.
That incident you describe about a shorted power supply bringing down the whole computer room probably would not have run the battery backups flat had that computer room been running production systems. There no doubt would have been monitoring that would have brought someone running when the incident happened. Since the computer room contained “only” development systems, I guess the company did not think it was worth watching over as carefully.
As to Cringely’s article, Oracle does not, never did, and probably never will run on NonStop, so he has some facts wrong. Dell did, for many years, use NonStop to run their assembly operation, or warehouses, or something related to building their computers, if I’m remembering correctly. I don’t remember ever hearing that they used the NonStop system for running their web site, though they might have done so and I just never heard about it. When Compaq bought Tandem in the late 1990’s, Dell thought they did not want to be dependent on a competitor’s systems and tried for a long time to move those applications to some other platform, but had several attempts to do so fail. I don’t know whether they have yet succeeded in replacing the NonStop systems. I haven’t heard anything about those efforts for quite a while.
Maybe he should just shut down the company and give the shareholders their money back.
If they were indeed running Oracle on NonStop (not supported by either Oracle or HP) then they got what they were asking for – trouble. If running NSQL, it’s surprising since many of these systems have continuous app availability for years (decades?) at a time.
More info, please – this is either another Cringely scoop or fud from Dell/Oracle.
I guess Dell has just had a learning opportunity. If you want an extremely secure high availability system that scales effortlessly then just get a IBM i and be done with it.
Thanks for the laugh. You can’t be serious. Well, if they did, you’re correct, they would be done (for good).
God bless Dell, and HP. Thank you Gateway, Compaq, Packard Bell, and all the brands I’ve outlasted.
Thank you for making (censored).
Shoddy power supplies, leaking capacitors on motherboards, “Vista Capable”, BTX form factor, and Dell… all those computers you sold to users with RD-RAM. I love you guys.
Sincerely,
South Valley Computers
(Celebrating 15 years in business, and now with 3 locations in Central California to serve you)
About a month ago we bought a Dell laptop from a reseller. We called Dell to buy the upgraded warranty. It should have cost $80. It took quite an effort for them to come up with a quote of $639. We only paid $579 for the laptop. I walked the agent through the steps to find and buy the same laptop on Dell’s website. She couldn’t figure out how to sell us the warranty.
The Dell laptop was very well built and we decided to buy a second. Again we ran into problems with Dell. Sometimes they’d have the laptop sometimes they wouldn’t. The price was changing hourly. So I called to order the laptop. Again they couldn’t help us.
We ended up buying a Toshiba laptop; and Square Trade warranties for both the Toshiba and Dell laptops. And… we got a better warranty for $65 each.
Things are pretty bad when a customer calls ready to BUY your products and you can’t figure out how to make the sale. Dell is in serious trouble in many ways. I hope this system crash wakes them up and motivates them to start fixing their problems. You should never, ever turn away a customer ready to buy.
“You should never, ever turn away a customer ready to buy.”
I don’t disagree but I can bet Dell isn’t impressed much by your one sale. He’s one of the laziest people around, he became famous for showing up for work late even though he had the key and everybody else at the factory was locked out until he showed up. In fact, being lazy is possibly what made him so successful. The story goes like this (and I acknowledge up-front that most of the details are probably wrong, but then I am also too lazy to look them up): he was saving up for college by selling newspaper subscriptions. After awhile of door-to-door sales humiliation, he noticed that two types of people bought more subscriptions: newlyweds and home purchasers. The interesting thing is that he could lazily find out who those people were, city-wide, by reading the wedding announcements in the very same newspaper he was selling, and regularly reviewing “sold” reports for homes in the city.
So yeah he was not expending effort to find people who may have been willing to buy, he was spending the minimum amount of effort to find people with the highest probability of buying.
So, finally, why wouldn’t Dell necessarily want to chase a customer cash-in-hand ready to buy? Remember Dell Corporation’s big innovation was in developing an online purchasing store that would let customers do all the work of specifying their system and “filling in the form”, even take care of providing their own credit card number and ensuring the payment went through. Now the kind of customer you sound like is the type who calls in and asks for help from a human. That type is just fine, if the customer is buying enough product that it’s worth paying a clerk to communicate with the customer.
Spending effort communicating with individual customers is the sort of mistake that they make at the neighborhood hardware store. They will never rise above their station of serving customers with their individual problems. Dell, and Dell Corporation, is all about cutting costs to the bone, identifying which customers will bring in the greatest quantity of business, and forgetting the rest, even if they are “cash in hand”. Sorry for the long-winded explanation of what is probably obvious.
I’m waiting for someone to comment why Dell does not use its own servers for its enterprise system… ?
Hmmm, maybe the capacitors boiled over. (yeah, that’s right – I reached back to 2006 for that joke)
Beyond all the other discussion about whether it could be both Oracle and NonStop at the same time I’ll pick a different, small nit. It is “Hewlett-Packard” not “Hewlett Packard.”
First your writting is spot on, thanks
I’d like to know where you think the patent law suites are headed, seems android needs some breathing space.
What about web os? Obviousley the idiot CEO of HP screwed HP.
Seems like this won’t shake out rob probably or another year.
Too bad because HP had something Realy Good goin but the idiot Apathetic head screwed it all up.
Your always a good read, thanks again.
from a friend….
There is no such thing as “NonStop UNIX”, there is only the NonStop Kernel, aka NSK, running on Tandem Himalaya, which was purchased by Compaq, which was purchased by HP. (Fun trivia fact: the “Integrity” trademarked name for high availability servers was originally owned by Tandem, was abandoned by them in favor of NSK, and was resurrected by HP for the Itanium line).
Oracle does not run on NSK. Never did, never will. The list of supported platforms is at https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/database/enterprise-edition/downloads/index.html?ssSourceSiteId=ocomen , and NSK isn’t there.
The database on NSK is called NonStop SQL, at http://h20223.www2.hp.com/nonstopcomputing/cache/81318-0-0-0-121.html .
Oracle BEA WebLogics runs on NSK, but not Oracle.
I don’t know if Dell runs NonStop, but I know that EMC used to, for their incident tracking system. What made this deliciously ironic is that at that time, NSK required its own specialized storage, so EMC had to use NSK storage to track errors in EMC storage… :^)
I have no information on whether the Dell databases went down. I can’t find anything on the business wire about it, and given that it is the last week of the quarter and that this would have a material effect on sales, there is a legal requirement to publish this information. But hey, maybe they want to publish it after a reasonable period of time, or maybe I just couldn’t find it. But given this lengthy list of fundamental errors in the story, I think the actual details got lost in a game of Russian Telephone… 🙂
but hey, what is MY source?????
🙂
There WAS something precisely going by the name NonStop UNIX during Compaq days my friends BUT as far as I know, it was never sold by Compaq to any customer. If you wish I would search and surely would find reference to those slides/pages.
Now, coming to the current context, I would say it was highly confusing. I worked in Dell Order Management System or DOMS and I was a Dell employee back in 2003 timeline. Dell used to run on NonStop SQL on HP NonStop Server completely as far as it is Order Management System. However, DDW(Dell Data Warehouse) is on NCR Teradata which I don’t believe we have anything to say here.
Dell was trying very hard to get out of Tandem since 2002 timeline! But I have not seen that successful till my departure in 2005. But I know it with full confirmation that Dell now runs it’s Order Management System(at least for Americas) on Windows .NET based solution. I am therefore surprised how come the word NonStop came into picture?
As a former Tandem, the Compaq, then HP NonStop employee, who worked in development for many years, I remember a bit about the Tandem-developed Unix systems. There were several generations that were sold in relatively small numbers. The last generation, the NonStop-UX based systems were sold to a number of customers, it was part of the S-Series, similar hardware to the S-Series Himalaya systems that ran NSK, but running a System V based variant of Unix developed at the Tandem Austin site originally in the mid-late 90s. It was a “loose-sync” type hardware FT system. If I remember correctly it was the Integrity S-4000 (but it was a LONG time ago). It was discontinued after poor sales for a number of years, I believe it was close in time to the HP merger. The Integrity brand was re-purposed by HP to represent ALL of the Itanium-based systems, including the HP-UX as well and NonStop ones. AFAIK, Dell was NOT one of the customers for that system. Dell, however had a very large installation of Tandem, then Non-Stop systems running NSK. They even migrated from S-Series to H-Series, in a big way, after their internal project to replace NonStop with a Windows-based system failed to meet it’s objectives. Funny story, back in the Compaq days, I had multiple occasions to visit Dell to talk about NonStop development futures as well as consult on their usage of NonStop networking products. I was told to remove any Compaq logos from my slides. The NonStop systems were kept in a computer room hidden from any visitors, and they actually had the Compaq insignias on the cabinets removed, and replacement insignias installed which were supplied personally by the NonStop salesman on the account.
Yes, Len is correct. I clearly remember NonStop UNIX was alive and it was just alive for a few years.
Regarding Dell? LOL 🙂 I can relate what Len was telling. Those NonStop boxes used to be specially fabricated to be display “Tandem” insted of Compaq/HP. Dell runs on HP? Difficult to digest?
I don’t buy Dell. They’re mediocre at best. I don’t buy HP because I like them even less than Dell. So this is a non-problem for me, thanks goodness.
This Maybe urban legend, but I there was once a story going around that the original Dell online stores were built on Next Webobjects. Then when Apple acquired Next, Microsoft laid down the law to “eat their dog food” or see license rates go up. Dell made the switch, (this is late 90’s, and I was a university buyer) the Dell on-line store went from reliable to trash for many months.
@ J … you would be correct, Dell was initially using Next for it’s web platform back in the day … as were a lot of people, not enough to make a dent in the universe, but enough of the right people in the right places in produce some of the first web sites at the time … we use Dell servers because it’s good bang for the buck, and I’ve toured the Campus in Texas for a number of days, but I like IBM for their service …. as for personal devices … Mr. Jobs you’ll be missed for many a year to come, a die hard Apple Fan Boy I am since ’84 when I sold, serviced, and supported the entire Apple line 🙂 … cheers from The Great White North!
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I have been buying Dell PCs exclusively since they were PCs Limited. I signed a contract on behalf of my former employer to buy Dell PCs for that Corp, about 3 million/year.
I September they sent on e of my clients a Laptop with a dead hard drive. When I contacted my sales rep, he arranged to have a new hard drive sent out so that we could self-repair this DOA laptop.They told me this was their ‘policy’
I am really glad that HP has decided to stay in the PC business, because I have made my last Dell purchase. I am in the process of a forklift upgrade of systems to become compliant with ICD10 specs, about $180k…. maybe not that much money to Dell, but a lot of revenue to lose over a POS laptop replacement.
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