Something has been bothering me lately and it is our assumption that China is the world’s next superpower and that we’d darned well better get used to it. Hogwash. We’re into the Chinese decade, not the Chinese Century.
The century belongs to India.
Last century was all-American. We came into the 20th century a huge but unsophisticated nation. Our industrial might made us a factor in World War I. Our cultural ingenuity caught the world’s fancy in the 1920s and — 90 years later — still hasn’t let go. As a result this will not be the Bollywood Century. The Great Depression secured our place at the table by showing we could take much of the world down with us. World War II saw us save that world, grabbing half a century of global dominance in the process (thanks Dad). But now we’re screwing it up a bit out of inertia and greed and ignorance of the very world we created. We did it to ourselves by thinking that nothing could really hurt us. But in the end that wasn’t true any more than the idea that Harry Houdini’s stomach could take any punch.
So we’re giving it up to the Indians. not to the Chinese. China has the population, the will, the educational system, the foreign currency reserves — everything to make it the next global superpower except two things: 1) an emerging middle class generation comparable to our Baby Boomers, and; 2) a functional diaspora (look it up, I’ll wait).
In contrast to China, India has only those two things: 1) a real Baby Boomer class, and; 2) a functional diaspora (did you look it up?). Nothing else about India works at all — nothing. India is corrupt and divided. While India has a commercial tradition it isn’t an especially functional one. Fractionalism and factionalism, whether economic, social, or religious, will keep India from ever truly pulling together. But that doesn’t matter because my two original points are enough.
What I find interesting is that most people just take it as bible truth that China will be the next superpower because it is so number-oriented (huge infrastructure dollars, huge manufacturing dollars, higher per capital wealth than India, bigger middle class, etc…). Plus it is easier to see China becoming dominant because we prefer, I think, to be economically conquered by people very different from ourselves. And China just seems more different than India.
China has all those factories and all that money (our money — isn’t that the way we tend to see it?). China also cheated itself out of a generation through overzealous population control, which might be good for the globe but is bad for hegemony. But the biggest reason why India will win and China will lose is the Chinese stay to themselves too much. They don’t assimilate.
Look at the world’s multinational companies. Compare their executives of Indian and Chinese nationality or descent. Indian executives are everywhere. Chinese executives are nowhere.
Now remember what western corporate law teaches us — that managers control companies, not their shareholders. China isn’t just the 1.5 billion Chinese, but Chinese inside China plus their diaspora worldwide. Same for India. The big point is not very politically correct but it is nevertheless true — there is a massive disparity in Indian vs Chinese executive representation in the top 500 multinational corporations.
You can rattle off the number of Indian CEOs, COOs, CTOs, CIOs, and CFOs then find another legion operating just below the CXX level. My guess is that their comfort with western culture, their English language skills, and — perhaps most importantly — their institutional training by the Brits enable them to be the best bureaucrats and political operators who — even though they may not add a single dollar of value — use those skills to survive in droves and make it to the top. In contrast, you see hardly any high-level Chinese executives in multinational corporations that aren’t Chinese multinationals.
Juxtapose this with domestic Indian conglomerates that have managed 10 percent year-over-year growth despite the absurd inefficiencies of the domestic Indian market and you get a phenomenal triangulation move that will leave China in the dust in the next 10-20 years.
Then remember that the Indian workforce will still be young and growing in 10 years versus a rapidly aging Chinese population and the fact that India has not only already won in services and pharma, but is proving itself smarter and more innovative in industrial manufacturing, too.
China is not a particularly good bet after about 2020, though the Chinese domestic economy will grow like gangbusters for the next few years — hence they win the decade, though not the century.
History has shown, too, that India and China don’t play well Both are outrageously arrogant and selfish, China is too top-down and India is too driven by short-term political issues. Chinese companies hate dealing with Indians.
Here’s what all this means for the future. It’s very good for the English language, for one thing. That may not seem like much, but it is, at least for those of us who are native English speakers. It’s not that English is so great, you see, but that it is not Mandarin. The Indians will ensure Mandarin does not become the dominant language. And if they can do it they’ll also make sure the RMB doesn’t replace the dollar as it is not in their interests from either a national or a multinational corporation management perspective, either.
I suspect the multinational corporations effectively controlled by the indian diaspora won’t even need excuses to work more with India instead of China as China becomes more and more of an ass-pain for the world. Since the Indians control the multinational corporations, they have a vested interest in the U.S. and Europe not completely collapsing.
Lucky us.
While there’s not much optimism floating atop this idea that Indian managers will allow us to survive as viable economies mainly to keep the Chinese at bay, remember that survival is an absolute prerequisite for resurgence.
If we have a hope of making the 22nd century again ours (and I think it can be done) we have to start somewhere.
An interesting article, and one that I take no issue with.
But to extrapolate the concept, referencing a method used in centuries past by someone whose name is lost to me now, one of the factors also used for predicting future superpower status, perhaps a couple of centuries ahead, was landmass to population ratio. That is, room to expand internally. This factor was correctly used a couple of centuries back top predict the US & Russian rise to that status. This was in conjunction with availability of natural resources etc.
So it’s interesting now to sit now and look at who might fit that bill now. Brazil springs to mind, as does a possible future agglomeration of African states.
It’s interesting though that societal ethics in general and work ethic in particular was not nominated as a factor. And perhaps a little sobering as well, once one ponders the implications for our own travails in the past.
Africa is rich in natural resources and has plenty of land for expansion for sure. They certainly could become a superpower if they could get their act together as a continent. However, that’s not likely to happen any time soon. Africa is hopeless divided and corrupt. And they are this way not just at the very top but almost all the way down to the individual level. They are decades away from any sort of cooperative effort and at that point they would be starting from zero in terms of their ability to focus their energy as a union of some kind.
Africa is far too tribal, in the sociological sense not racist, to become the next USofA. There won’t be a next USofA, unless White People exterminate all those pesky Africans. We did it before, you know.
Bob is only partly right here. What made the USofA great was the confluence of:
– a continent devoid of White People
– a continent with an absurd natural resource endowment
– a continent populated by aboriginals easily killed
No such place now exists (Africans are no longer aboriginal). The future is a purely zero-sum game. For those who understand the Laws of Thermodynamics, that’s the optimist’s view.
Civilization is really just an increase in energy consumption per capita. We’re getting close to a Malthusian solution. There isn’t enough spare energy capacity, especially the portable variety (gasoline/diesel). Never underestimate the portability requirement: it’s what makes the USofA such wastrels compared to Europe or even China. In a zero-sum future, where per capita energy consumption is a hindrance and vast lands too, Europe wins. It won’t even be close.
I think you’re trying to recall Alexis de Tocqueville in his book “Democracy in America”
It’s also interesting to note that China has all the world’s manufacturing and India has basically none (check a map, see the Pacific ocean? Great.)
The South China manufacturing powerhouse with Hong Kong on its tip is such a brilliant model, ensuring even the uneducated (Chinese has millions of them) can always find employment of some kind, and even aspire to enter the subsidiary offices of Shenzhen, and HQ offices of HK some day. Does India have anything like this at all for its poor?
That’s the middle class you’re looking for Cringely. It’s the Chinese who work in factories to save money to go to college, and scrape there way through the ranks of Chinese businesses. With zero manufacturing, how exactly does India compete with that?
Don’t worry about the English language. Just make sure to put your children in Mandarin class by the time they hit High School.
They said the same thing about Japanese in the late 1970s. China needs us (and Europe) to buy from them to keep their economy growing. That means we are the customer and it is the seller that learns the language of the customer, not the other way around. Now I suppose that eventually (if we as Americans are extraordinarily stupid) things could reverse where it becomes cheaper to manufacture in the US and we end up selling our wares to China. If that turned out to be the case, perhaps some would need to learn Mandarin.
…except the Chinese don’t have to scrape and save their money to go to college – the state pays for it, IF you qualify. So, they instead are spending their money on material consumption that has been denied them for three generations.
The PRC wants to control things, so they’re concentrating on the things they can easily buy for a song now, natural resources, primarily, concrete production, drywall, steel. The Chinese will continue to make everything and then the Indians will take over all the services industries (even more than they already have). The Indians will be the inventors and the Chinese will steal the designs and make knock-offs.
who replaced B. Cringe with Tom Friedman?
China is doing one thing that gets little press, esp. in the US: They are assimilating Africa. 1-2 years ago, they had 750K living in Africa. It’s just going to zoom up.
Actually, the bigger issue is that soon if not already, in addition to the massive influx of Chinese immigrants to Africa is the fact that Chinese entities will control all the mineral wealth in Africa that American and European powers were too shortsided to work out. This is one element that Bob has overlooked in Indians rising is that they’ll have to get their materials from the Chinese powers in Africa. I’ve seen them from Cape to Congo to Cote d’Ivoire building up a massive presence and control that absolutely no Western Media talks about it honest terms.
Chinese multinationals are already stepping into Afghanistan and Central Asia. Why? The central Asian states still see Russia as a very real threat and think they can count on China to come to their aid rather than the USA.
Are the Chinese really “investing in Africa” or is it really their modern experiment in colonialism? From what I can tell, they see important resources and are doing what it necessary to secure their supply. Prudent colonialism, but is it a long-term strategy?
China is in the enviable position of being able to say to African countries “Look, we understand — we were basically colonized ourselves, during the Opium Wars. But we have managed to pull ourselves up, no thanks to the West, and we’d be happy to show you how we did it”.
The US was in this position after WW2, and it’s a mighty nice position to be in — think of the US’ deal with Saudi Arabia. But the US has pissed away that moral high ground. The Chinese may, perhaps, do the same thing. But they haven’t so far — and not even the most nutty conspiracy theorists claim there is a Chinese CIA running around killing off leaders they don’t like, arming rebels, etc etc. All of which indicates that the Chinese have a strong hand to play in the poor world, and that they are playing it well.
What you are missing here is that Africa as a key source of Minerals/Metals/Oils etc. for China (Engine) are too far away and exposed to an India that will dominate the Indian Ocean sealanes with the help of the West and Russia.
China will be forced to look West to the “…stans” for resources which will initially impac their growth.
Chinese investment in Africa is skyrocketing, but the Chinese in Africa are insulated from the population — they remain in a Chinese bubble. See the book China Safari: https://www.amazon.com/China-Safari-Beijings-Expansion-Africa/dp/1568584261
Interesting article though it doesn’t do to patronize your readers! The US will not enjoy a resurgence as no empire has ever made a quick comeback and besides much of the next generation probably doesn’t even know what diaspora means.
The main problem with India is the out of control population growth which you have attributed as a strength. Over half the existing population, that’s half a billion people are still tied to unmechanised subsistance agriculture if India adopts western farming techniques in order to increase yields it will have close to three hundred million unemployed people. That is a sure trigger for social unrest, which India is already going through due to its caste system.
As for the functional desporia of India over China give it 20 years and you’ll see a massive number of CXX’s coming out of China as it starts easing its travel restrictions on its nationals working overseas.
China always plays the long game and India can’t beat China in political stability.
I agree on your comments that English is still positioned to become the main trading language, but only because of its effectiveness, ever read a tech manual in mandarin?
> China always plays the long game and India can’t beat China in
> political stability.
I find modern China very scary. I heard a while back on NPR, “Imagine a world with no brothers or sisters, no cousins, just your parents and grandparents.” It’s rather a sobering thought – a nation of only children, pushed relentlessly by their parents and doted on by their grandparents. Raised as “the hardest working and therefore most deserving” generation in the world. Very little childhood, just push! push! push! There have always been people like that, here and there, but a whole nation of them?!?!
It’s also interesting that the government is eager to gain the benefits and trappings of capitalism, yet retain absolute power for themselves. I’m not so sure that is really stable.
In China, if both husband and wife are themselves only children, then they’re allowed to have two children. The one child, two parents, and four grandparents is a slight exaggeration.
“If we have a hope of making the 22nd century again ours (and I think it can be done) we have to start somewhere.”
This one’s still ours and will remain that way. You’re a smart man, but you shouldn’t believe everything your head tells you.
It’s true because you want it to be true? Not very persuasive. Remember, argue with facts, not wishes.
Argue with facts? Not so close to election day…
It’s a curious world view to see India and China as arrogant and selfish. It’s an even more curious one when it comes from anyone in the U.S. who consume most of the world’s resources, produce most of the world’s pollution and can’t seem to understand why everyone else doesn’t want to be like them, enough so that they feel compelled to force their will everywhere they can. Mind you, from what I’ve seen of the current U.S. education system, you won’t need to worry about how many enterprises will be run by U.S. citizens in the future.
I liked the views recently expressed by Paul Keating about the world’s monetary system. You do have to wonder how much longer it will be run by the debtor nations. Living in constant and growing debt isn’t a plan for the future. It can’t be that long before the surplus nations say “ah, sorry, we’re now in charge” (or perhaps something like 你会听从我们)
Cringely, I usually agree with your takes, at least in parts, but in this case I think you are quite off, maybe due to both of your cultural ignorance of the East and your wishful thinking for the U.S. India’s industrial and managerial similarities to the U.S. will bring them down just like it does the U.S., not make them our savior. You do not recognize the Chinese middle class because they don’t look like the middle class in the U.S. There is also a vast number of Chinese WORKING class, underpaid but can compete with any workforce in the world in any job. English is practically a mandated second language for all Asians younger than 40, Chinese included. It’s really a non-factor since everyone use computers. Regardless of political structures, the basis of Chinese society is capitalistic to the core, for centuries since before Jesus. A little communist experiment was not going to destroy that cultural DNA. The challenge for the Chinese government is to reign in the market so the over-eager corporate class does not take the U.S. imitation too far and make the same mistakes.
Jack’s point above about Africa is also critical but totally ignored by most Americans. China is securing its markets and commodities future with new ties all over the world, while US is losing ties. The Chinese will have HUGE problems, at scales beyond most most American politicians’ intelligence, but the beauty of a one-party domination is that the top politicians don’t worry about pleasing the voters short-term and sacrifice long term plans for the sake of re-elections (come to think of it, Cringely, the CEOs CIOs you think will lead Indians to succeed, just like the politicians here, are a liability because they only care about quick results).
People need to visit China and see for themselves. I’m not talking about touring the Great Wall. Go to one of the major cities and observer how things run and how people live. The scale and pace of the free market competition people have to live with there every day will scare you. And those are the people we’ll be competing with.
My point, as always, is to stir the pot, but I’ll point out here that I made my first trip to China in 1982 and stayed for three months in Beijing that year, working with a group of Chinese who had been my students the year before. I have been back many times and think I know something of China as a result. I have also run a consulting company in Asia since 1991 with exclusively Asian clients. You can’t make a living in Asia for 19 years without understanding at least something of the way things work.
Bob I have no doubt, even if you had not responded, that you have probably lived and worked in more places than I may ever will. That is why I find your assertions so surprising. We (Americans) seem to have so many experts and yet our foreign policy and economic understanding still seem very shallow. It’s still unclear to me how you figured that a simple number of Western styled CXXs is an advantage.
Disclosure – I’m Chinese American staked my life in the U.S., but have generations of relatives in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and China. The rich and diverse responses in this pot you’ve stirred contains enough interesting points to show the complexity of the issue. I think with India and China, these countries and cultures are so large and complex that even people with personal experiences can only come to partial understanding, and probably right and wrong on many things. The world simply has not yet seen growing nations of peoples at such scale.
I have to disagree.
The Japanese and South Koreans also don’t speak English or integrate well, but that hasn’t stopped them becoming economically very powerful.
Just imagine if China reaches the same level of economic development as Japan and South Korea. And there is no absolutely no reason why it should not do so.
China currently has one fifth of the per capita GDP of Japan and South Korea, and more than 7.5 times the population of both of them put together.
Increase China’s GDP by 5 times, to the level of Japan and South Korea, and you get an economic power equivalent to 10 Japans or to 27 Koreas.
Individual Indians may integrate well into Western corporate structures, but India as a whole has currently half the per capita GDP of China and far less potential for rapid development.
Great article Bob, but I think your US centric view creates a little bias.
The Chinese diaspora is massive in the pacific rim. In NZ it outnumbers the Indians two to one by my own unscientific count (Ok NZ Stats tells me 139728/97443, not quite two to one https://www.stats.govt.nz/Census/2006CensusHomePage/QuickStats/quickstats-about-a-subject/culture-and-identity.aspx). The Chinese mainlanders have been using NZ/Australia and other countries rather than the US for their educational needs, rather than the US Centric Indians, and the Chinese have been doing it longer.
Also when I was in China they were proud to say that there was more people learning english in China than speaking it in the US, I believe them, you will be right about English being the Trade Tongue of this century and the next.
I agree with the other posters about the manufacturing, capitalism and political control in China creating a powerhouse that is really only just getting its feet under itself internationally.
On demographics in China, you might have a point, but China is quite unique, and the west doesn’t understand the substantially different cultural forces there and technical aids (robots etc) can easily be brought to bear on the problem. But the cultural revolution and the one child policy probably will stop them invading too many countries soon (thank the gods).
Andrew
Cringley, with this one you have shot yourself out of the league. Technology you may have context and can cover with reasonable instinct, information and network to source the data that powers your stories. But someone who has not left the shores of the US in the last several years, who has spent on road-trips with an ageing RV, doing whatever you do in the corn-belts of free world – what information, context, interaction, connect do you have to comment about Asia, leave alone India, China? You have stitched together stuff that you have got off Google News, the CIA website, beer bars… what else you got! The real reason USA appears to loosing the domination over the global economy and the power that comes with it… is this insular view of everything. I mean, it does not get any more insular than the World Series/World Championships on your 4 major sporting leagues 🙂 Americans are great for so many things, but not for knowledge of what happens out side of their nation and why they happen. Sad. How else can you explain the series of military “wins” starting with Vietnam that has made everyone in America so proud of what they have achieved. I mean, in spite of the obvious world dominance in military, espionage, money power… Go figure.
At least, Tom Friedman took the trouble to travel the parts of the world extensively before he wrote his book.
My vote is for World Peace, as opposed to identifying World Dominance.
I have worked — worked — in more than 100 nations over the last 40 years including all the countries you mention. Note my comments above. I am not what you assume me to be.
Cringely,
How many places you’ve lived is irrelevant. You don’t understand anything. The world is a series of nationless corporations. Chindia is simply THEIR latest diaspora, or rather the exploitation of cheap labor. Once Chindia is used up, they will pack up and exploit someone cheaper.
You also have to understand peak oil. China and India will never have a wealthy middle class. There isn’t enough easily mined oil and minerals to enable that. Google peak oil and Eroi.
You are spouting myths. America is not the spreading culture. Disney, GE, Time Warner, Newscom. Try fighting a war without — bank of america, goldman sachs, jp morgan. I’ll bet you thought it was generals and presidents. They are simply employees.
Well said. Let’s have a global, multipolar century that unleashes the real potential of all 6B of us . . .
… potential… to do what, exactly? write poetry? dig ditches? there isn’t enough brain work to go around to keep a middle class in the USofA, much less 6 billion. jeez. read Malthus and Darwin.
The issue of who will own the future is interestingly presented here. The numbers of today point to China. The numbers of tomorrow – some of them point to India. What is not deniable is Indian’s ability to assimilate, and participate in the political process.
There are ‘soft’ factors in India’s favor – such has a government that has destroyed a generation by forceful population control. I see around me the Chinese middle class here in USA, most of them insist on having that second child – an expression of defiance, and basic rights that their homeland took away. And they exercise their other basic right and join a church. Not that India does not have some warts of its own, but these chinese (the ones having the second kid, and church-bound) are the elite and they do not have freedoms,
The future may also be about controlling precious resources, as China may want to do…
Numbers vs. Culture – I think both have their strenghts – its hard to say that India will be left in the dust – its got these fundamentals right.
I think the effect of the one-child policy has been exaggerated. It has been enforced only sporadically and inconsistently. China’s population is still growing, and has been for the last 30 years in which the policy has been in force.
The only effect of the policy has been to slow down population growth, which has been very beneficial overall, and to create a disproportion of older people, similar to the aging baby boomers in the USA.
However, most industrialized countries, including Europe, Russian and Japan have aging populations, so this doesn’t put China at a disadvantage.
In India the huge population growth means that resources have not been adequate to keep with it, and so standards of living, of industrialization, and of education have been held down.
This is funny, I just wrote about the Chinese middle class a couple of days ago:
https://www.pakg1.net/2010/10/changing-chinese-mindset-towards.html
I think your points were correct maybe 3 years ago. I don’t think they are now. China still has a lot of issues that could cause it to stumble, but I don’t think a lack of a middle class is one of them.
As well, I cannot think of more Indian executives than I can Chinese executives. In fact, I think Chinese executives by far have the lead, simply because HK and Taiwan are more westernized and advanced than maybe even India. The simple fact is that HK and Taiwan play nicer with China than a lot of people know, simply because the economics make it worthwhile. There may be a lot of political strife in the news, but there’s a lot of money flowing behind the scenes.
Finally, as an expat who’s living in China right now, I can honestly say that not only does this middle class exist, their English is pretty darn good. And I’m finding that increasingly often, they have a 3rd language (in my case, I’m running into a ton of Japanese speakers).
So in all, I think this view is a tad outdated. India probably has a bright future, but as anyone who attended the APCAC 2010 conference this year can attest (and even Indian panel speakers there attested to this), India is way behind in a number of areas, especially the infrastructure necessary to really rev its economy up. That investment is only now just starting due to the fact that their democratic government apparently has its first real majority government ever.
And you may wish to fix this apparent contradiction when comparing the middle classes of the two countries….
“China has the population, the will, the educational system, the foreign currency reserves — everything to make it the next global superpower except two things: 1) an emerging middle class generation comparable to our Baby Boomers”
“What I find interesting is that most people just take it as bible truth that China will be the next superpower because it is so number-oriented (huge infrastructure dollars, huge manufacturing dollars, higher per capital wealth than India, bigger middle class, etc…).”
My first roommate in college as a freshman in 1961 was from India.
When I retired last year one-half of my direct colleagues were grandchild generation India born.
Is India’s upsurgence a surprise to me? No. China, yes, but because of its Maoist past. (Exile Taiwan does not surprise me.)
India’s “patels” and China’s bamboo network have been around for much longer than a millenium. Not a new factor.
The factor that I think will be important for India-China vis-a-vis the U.S.A.-E.U. contest, is that the “west” has tapped out the upper portion of the IQ curve, while China and India still have reserve capacity to deploy and employ sensibly and adaptively.
Also, in the age of Tocqueville, it was as likely to find a blacksmith with an IQ of 135 as a minister. Not so today in U.S.A.-E.U., but still the mode in India-China, I believe.
How India and China will manage their co-existence will be an interesting story eventually. They are not yet in a head-to-head situation.
Nonetheless half the world is still trying to get into the U.S.A. Is it due to out-of-date information about “future potential” … or utter desperation?
Who knows.
cross posted from hacker news
You do have a point about the population aging, but that is by about 2050 if I remember. They have time to turn it around and make laws to pro-create more (they are already loosening the 1 child laws in some places as tests)
Other than that, I think he is wrong. India may produce many managers of companies but it does not matter. The chinese will just buy the companies of the world and keep existing managers on staff as employees. The chinese don’t really need to show their faces, they just hold the money, the shares and set the rules. (the golden rule. those who hold the gold, makes the rules)
Next, China has a leg up for infrastructure, it is pretty awesome how fast they are building airports, road networks, train systems, power grids, water processing, energy creation, real estate and entire cities. India can’t even clean the garbage from their streets let alone agree on major infrastructure investments. New infrastructure spurs and even creates whole new local domestic economies on many levels.
One party rule. Basically, the party can plan the next 5 years, next 50 years and 100 years and execute in amazing detail. They can and do get their best party minds together and plan what is good for the people and actually do it. Can many other countries do the same? Can you see India planning for the next 2 years, let alone 50 years?
English language. They start very young to learn English now in school, it is mandatory. There are 6 million university graduates per year. In 5-10 years, there will be 6-10 million english speaking graduates coming from China – PER YEAR.
Energy. Both china and india are net importers of energy. China is making deals to get Energy (ie. oil) everywhere and anywhere they can. Nigeria, Yemen, Saudi, Iran, Iraq, Caribbean, Canada and every place on the planet they can get it from. Everywhere the ‘West’ thinks it is not moral, the Chinese are there building infrastructure, making deals and securing energy for their people. Smart. What is India doing to secure their future energy needs?
Middle class. Have you been there to see the 300+ million people that are now buying apartments, cars, make up, creams, designer clothes et al.? Yup, more people than all of the USA is their newly created middle class. Beijing alone is putting 1000 new cars on the road EVERY SINGLE DAY. There are hundreds more cities with more than 1-2 million people.
Functional diaspora. This argument is pretty moot or even leans towards the Chinese I think. So what you have Indian individuals “integrating in companies”. They are individuals, and it means they can produce workers that integrate in other societies, as individuals. The Chinese also have diaspora. It is called China Town. In almost every city in the world has one. They are organized, band together, get real estate in close proximity, create small businesses and make their way and excel in almost every foreign country in the world. Do you see any “Indian Town’s” in any city in the world?
My money is on China for sure.
USA needs to revamp it’s spirit and and veer away from European state of mind.
The American dream drives the USA and it should be preserved by all means.
Your leaders should repeat that out loud and show how each measure taken
to revive economy will support that.
I aplogise for stating that a day before the elections but it must be said.
If I were an American, I should be worried of losing above rather than fear India or China furture growth.
P.S. I have a pretty good guess where are all those Indian origin executives and
how low is the chance of them returning to India.
What a load of baloney, No wonder the modern Americans suck at this foreign relations thing, with thinking like this.
Both have a very active and vibrant diaspora and the Chinese one has more influence on ave. (esp in South east asia)
This Population/Ageing aspect is over played.
China can always lift the ban and provide incentives if it realy wanted to create another boom just enough to level with India.
India is 3 times smaller in Land mass, China has “Land”, sure all of its not all good right now, but in the future it might become right for habitation, Its better than having “NoLand”.
Only thing i agree is, both countries throughout their 5000 year history have been, extremely arrogant and selfish indeed, in how they view themselves (i.e. superiority complex, and both are racist as well, politically incorrect but on ground reality, always has been)
I believe China has already lifted the ban. My understanding is that if you were born under the one child law, you are not bound to it yourself. China understands that the one child law had unforeseen consequences due to their cultural need to have a male heir in each household. The fact that generation headed towards adulthood in China is sexually lopsided (more males than females) is telling. The rest of us should be considering that we are dealing with a nation that was culturally willing to do whatever was necessary to have a male heir in their families even when 50% of the babies born were female. And while some were adopted by people from other countries, I doubt the adoption numbers come anywhere close to covering the gap.
Actually, both India and China are going to have a lot of trouble with gender balance in the next 20-50 years. It isn’t so much a product of ‘one child’, but of the availability of sexual selection pre-birth. It’s illegal, but still widespread. I’m very curious where that’s going to go.
It seems naive to believe there can only be one winner and a bunch of losers. It doesnt work that way. The world is moving toward economic equality.
If you are free from human rights concerns, environmental regulation, costly union negotiating, intelectual property laws, etc- you have a huge advantage.
Both China and India and any other population will move up the ladder as long as they encounter a generation of people who are willing to work hard for not much in return.
A multipolar world is really in everyone’s best interest, including the Chinese and the Indians, for the same reason that a world with Apple and Microsoft is better than a world with just one of those, and a world with AMD and Intel, is better than a world with just one of those. I’m rooting for the global century: American, Indian, Chinese, Brazilian, European, African. I’m rooting for a century of genuinely different ideas competing in the marketplace of ideas. I’m rooting for a century where there are more engineers and scientists than in all the rest of history combined, and ditto for artists too. Let’s see with the talents of 6B human beings, fed, educated, healthy and operating at full potential can really do – a few weeks ago an “Earthlike” planet was discovered just 20 light years away. Should we pay it a visit?
OK, let me just say that although it may seem that India is well-poised for the next century, it’s not really that simple.
First of all, India’s caste system is still very alive & well, and it’s suppressive for a very large part of the population. Secondly, Indians are more like worker bees than leaders & innovators. What signs of innovation have you seen coming from India? Mostly a bunch of IT & outsourcing companies doing other peoples’ work. I’m sensitive to this because I’m in tech, and when people see me they automatically assume I’m from WiPro or Tata.
Have you ever been to a factory in China? Or Taiwan? Whether we’re talking FoxConn or some little sweatshop in a Chinese village hillside, there are people willing to work hard, and more importantly, they INNOVATE. They work around problems. They find a way to make it work.
In India, the 20-somethings are becoming lazy, complacent and developing a sense of arrogance and entitlement. The last time I visited, I was shocked. The 9-5 culture, people commuting from the suburbs, everyone with a cellphone. Go onto a programming forum. It’s always Indians asking the most rudimentary and embarrassing questions. The Chinese are the ones asking the questions “How do I put 10 lbs of stuff into a 5lb bag?” – determined to find a way.
Hey, to each his own. I personally believe that the Indian political infrastructure, mediocre educational system and self-image will be the biggest reason that the Chinese machine will dominate them in the long term. I know this isn’t politically correct, but I believe what the Chinese lack in education and creativity, they more than make up for with fire in their belly, hard work ethic, desire to improve their lives, and a single-mindedness and determined will that is fundamentally missing in the Indian middle class.
I wonder how many people in India are thinking “I’ve responded this exact same customer service request 5,000 times now. Surely, there must be a better way to provide phone service, cable service, credit cards, etc. to Americans.”
They know American consumers’ pain, because they deal with it daily. Put that together with the high education levels, and problems get solved.
Then the phone lines start ringing in the other direction.
The Indians have been the merchant class in Africa since the 1940s and 1950s – the Chinese are late to the game there too. But I agree with an early commenter – Brazil is the future power probably as soon as later in this century.
Our biggest challenge is to make the strategic and infrastructure investments in our higher education system so that our institutions can remain competitive in the information based world. It is also necessary to retain and draw new foreign students here to those institutions which lately we have been losing.
Interesting article, as always, but why do I get the feeling that Bob is extrapolating from two datapoints?
Speaking of two data points NIST only used two data points to describe the collapse of a building. John Gross re-released a report that acknowledged freefall with constant acceleration. His first report described it with constant speed !
Americans seem to have trouble with high school Physics presented here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDvNS9iMjzA&feature=related
My prediction: it’ll neither be a Chinese or an Indian or any other century, but it’ll be a century of humanity.
Think about it: it’s for the first time in history that humans are interacting with each other in the humongous scale we currently do. I’m a middle-class Indian who has just crossed 30, but I’ve worked and communicated with pretty much all races, traveled to four continents, and have been exposed to most of the major cultures and cuisines all over. I can *relate* to someone of my educational and financial background irrespective of where in the world they are from. And all this is happening in a vaguely homogenized world that has a major American component.
We are basically a small village on a rock floating around a giant nuclear furnace that keeps us alive. The absurdity of asking questions like “whose century it will be” will soon be obvious even to a child.
Why the patronizing tone? Do you really think most of your readers are too stupid to have heard the word diaspora? Should we also look up “baby boomer” and “middle class”? You twice used the phrase “functional diaspora”, and I thought you must be talking about some special meaning in economics or politics or international relations. But no – it seems to be just a diaspora that, uh, functions. WikiPedia asks “did you mean functional diarrhoea”, and perhaps this is appropriate.
Well said Tony H. Bob must think his readers are dolts(Bob, look that up).
Chinese productivity seems driven by autocrats, or oligarchs, and the industriousness of it’s conformistworker bees is fear-based, so I think this basis is untrustworthy in the long run (the horrible manifestation of this system at Foxconn was a shock; nothing will change). I think the will of a free people is the American model, and I want to believe that this spirit is dormant, not extinguished, but our materialism and comfort of the last few decades (the result of that very will-based creativity and productivity) combined with the mischief of our own would-be oligarchs, has been like a narcotic. India is a fascinating economy and society, and its American diaspora will indeed assimilate largely into our professional class to our benefit, and I can’t imagine any reciprocality between American culture and anyone else’s.
What everyone is failing to mention is the insane stretch of the wrestler in the picture with the red outfit on..wow! That has to be some yoga training he is going through. It’s too painful to look at.
Snopes.com says the punch isn’t what caused Houdini’s death: https://www.snopes.com/horrors/freakish/houdini.asp
Thanks for the Snopes link, Tom. Heard that Houdini story a million times but didn’t know the cause-and-effect was now strongly disputed.
Still liked the metaphor, though, Bob. 🙂
[…] The Chinese Decade (cringely.com) Filed under China, blogging, choices, computer stuff, culture ← The cbc.ca headline blares “Alcohol most harmful drug” […]
Don’t know about India, but right about China.
I have lived in Beijing for 2 years and let me tell you that the Chinese education system actively stinks. The kids spend 12 years before university being taught NOT to think, and it works. In addition they are taught by teachers to cheat and copy to get higher marks. They are also worked to death and have no experience outside of school. First graders have a short class day: about 8-4. After that it gets worse. Of course one must not forget the Saturday and even Sunday classes, or the 2 or 3 year olds with some classes to help them ‘get ahead’, or ‘compete’, or be miserable?
They work like hell, are as smart as kids anywhere I imagine, and massively educationally abused. So sad.
A university student friend recently told me: ‘they can’t think; they don’t know how; and it is too late for them’. She is a great student, just doesn’t have hope for her and her friends in this respect.
It might be changing a bit though: I know a few people trying to help, and the gov is putting up some money, though they may not know what to do with it.
I don’t know if it is an aberration or not, but my youngest university class shows signs of hope.
I recall that ‘long ago’ Japan was going to take over the world so to speak, and with my limited knowledge of the situation, I tend to attribute it not happening to their education system, which is not unlike the Chinese system.
As you may guess, I could go on and on. I do like it here though; the people are great, and things are HAPPENING. The HAPPENING is best and maybe that will make the difference. I hope to stay a long time and help where I can.
Hahaha! What a biased and simplistic view on the subject! Though, I agree that the main purpose of the article is “to stir the pot”.
First of all, this past century looks American-ish only from this side of the pond. Europe overall and Russia specifically won’t agree with you on all points, including the dominance one.
Next, I understand that the older generation likes to think that US “saved the world” in WWII but I think it at least not respectful to those millions of soldiers who died in that war. I agree that US participated in that great war, but to say it “saved the world” is as unjust as saying that “Microsoft saved Apple” in the years since 1995.
Speaking about Chinese and Indians, I must point out that their culture and science is much older than American. And yet, who’s catching who? Why so?
Over the last 10 years China demonstrates its ability to quickly catch-up and copy-cat technologies. But what’s next? We still yet to see any major breakthroughs in the science and technology departments. And if the history is any indication, we should wait for quite a while.
And I think that China has much bigger middle class than India.
And I agree, that Indians can talk their way to the top of American companies. And that they send lot of work back home and import relatives in droves. But that’s well-compensated by their family ties to India (meaning most wants to go back) as well as there’s not that significantly more really smart and talented people in India than in US or any other country.
Overall, in my opinion, US should focus on its inner issues: technology, education, healthcare, development, startups and everything else and should quit fearing competition from anyone else. I believe that is the key to staying ahead of the pack for the next and many other centuries.
As someone said, to stay ahead you shouldn’t be doing something different but whatever you do — you should do it really well. That’s the answer.
Its all about the population, who has the biggest wins always, in the long run.
So even if 21 century isn’t India or China’s it will not be far between these two unless US or Russia can start producing babies at production line intensity.
You need land to support them as well. India doesn’t have Land.
Human Capital, no amount of technology, innovation can substitute for that, unless they are all slaves, probability of which is negligible considering it would be a step backward for humans as a species in development.
Also wanted to point out, US doesn’t suffer from Ageing population mainly from immigration it receives.
China will begin to receive huge working immigrants from Korea,Japan and South East Asian countries, culturally they are similar and it makes sense, people just want to work and earn money where they can find it,
This ageing population argument is overplayed and overblown, it will affect China just as much as other big countries like India, none worse.
Besides no one knows what a 750 million+ working population can do (even when that working populating is supposed to be supporting a significantly higher %-age of older people, ‘coz such a situation has never occurred, you can model that behavior but population statistics and such models are notoriously bad at prediction)
“China also cheated itself out of a generation through overzealous population control, which might be good for the globe but is bad for hegemony. But the biggest reason why India will win and China will lose is the Chinese stay to themselves too much. They don’t assimilate.”
Wow this is ignorant.
(a) Britain wasn’t exactly hurt by their small population relative to the rest of the world. And that was BEFORE the force multipliers of the modern world.
(b) Chinese don’t assimilate? That explains why so many have chosen a Western name in addition to their Chinese name, why studying English is so common, why the standard complaint/refrain/celebration about Chinese-Americans is that they are “whiter than white”?
India APPEARS more assimiliationist because it has a tiny minority that are very obviously fluent in English and familiar with European history, but which are very visible. We’re (most of us) less familar with their Chinese counterparts.
But I suspect this fraction is growing faster in China than in India and will overtake it soon enough.
I take issue with three statements in this blog;
First one one being “Nothing else about India works at all — nothing”.
Your article is a testimony to the contrary. Imagine a place which is a host to several religions, disparate economic and political interests, income classes, castes, educational backgrounds is still thriving and growing at 8% per year. Add to this the world’s reigning superpower sides with it’s natural enemies.
Second point is “…their institutional training by the Brits enable them to be the best bureaucrats and political operators who — even though they may not add a single dollar of value ”
I have no idea what you mean by this statement. Do I smell something burning ? Are you suggesting this about all CXXs in general or just the Indian CXXs who have risen to this position solely through pure hard work, strong background in education (a grad. degree at the very least) and some luck in spite of color and creed opposition?
Thirdly “..absurd inefficiencies of the domestic Indian market…”
The Indians have to be doing something right. It’s not a controlled experiment like China; it’s after all a democracy (a large one at that).
In the end I am compelled to make a statement; i.e. I sense an undercurrent of fear in your article which I detest; I find abhorrent !
It was always the “U.S. managers” (if there is such a thing) who created the arbitrage opportunity, and now, when it turns to bite you, you make these despicable comments.
Did you miss this paragraph: “The century belongs to India.”?
Hahaha…good one RonC. Thanks for point me in the right direction.
“The century belongs to India.”
Those 5 words in that paragraph of 5 words, is just a statement that exists for political correctness (for the lack of a better phrase).
Andrew Russell says: “Also when I was in China they were proud to say that there was more people learning english in China than speaking it in the US…”
I wonder if they also write it better!
Ouch!
Apropos of your “Chinese Decade” piece, this article in today’s New York Times dovetails neatly with your comments in the article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/02/nyregion/02shuang.html?hpw
At English-Mandarin Public School, High Test Scores, but Also Strife
I think you are underestimating what exponential curves can do over the course of 90 years. As communications equipment gets cheaper and more powerful every year the ties between people all round the world will grow stronger. The world will not be like the world of fifty years ago or even like the world of today. Indian or Chinese hegemony will be like talking about New York or California hegemony in the USA – technically accurate but not really useful in describing how that future world works.
A more interesting question, for me anyway, is the struggle between the free culture movement (Linux, Wikipedia, Google?) and the IP barons (Monsamto, Apple, Microsoft). Here is a real cultural struggle with significantly different visions of what the future will look like.
Joe,
I certainly agree with you that this is a very interesting struggle. Wikipedia is a very interesting experiment. I will also add in your list the openness of the genome project. Openness beats secretive, and thats a fact. Being secretive works on zero sum games, where my gain is your loose. But the reality is more complex and many times my gain is your gain and thats the driving force in the open knowledge movement.
And the fact that those open movements are strong in the US is what make me feel uneasy about believing in the decline of US power.
MADE IN CHINA? Everywhere you look these days.
MADE IN INDIA? Nowhere to be found in my house.
How is that for winning the decade and the next century, Cringely?
The only thing missing from China to become the next superpower is our (USofA) desire for ingenuity. We have this extreme propensity for invention not because we are more gifted but it is ingrained in our American ways of life. That drive to be different, the maverick, the cowboy, you name it, it is who we are as Americans (and not just Whites, mind you).
Having 14.7 trillions of $$$ through our national GDP, for now, is keeping the USofA on top of the global heap but look closely, China is gaining fast and just superceded Japan. India just barely exceeded $1.3T GDP last year while China topped $5T GDP (courtesy WolframAlpha).
So, I don’t see India becoming the global superpower that Cringely tries to sell here. India does not possess the manufacturing, industrial, and financial infrastructure as China or good ol’ USofA does. Until they do I will not buy into this assumption. As for education, only a small percentage gets a good higher education in India while any Chinese who wants to go to college can through the state-scholarship system.
Speaking the English language fluently or having the largest population growth will not ensure global preeminence for the next century. China did the right thing to control their population but 1.5B living, breathing Chinese can’t be ignored. They are ready to take over the world.
But until the USofA stops being the ingenuity center of the world we should not worry too much for either China or India. We gave up the manufacturing sector many decades ago. India can have the service sector too.
MADE IN THE USA? This emblem still resonates around the world as “worth every penny” durability.
au contraire: university is not free in China
I have no fearless predictions as to who will dominate the next century, but my colleagues and I did an extensive study comparing the Internet in China and India about ten years ago, and found that at that time it was no contest. India and China were economically equal in the 1960s and India got off to a head start with respect to the Internet, but by the time of our study, China was FAR ahead:
http://mitpress.mit.edu/journals/pdf/itid_1_1_41_0.pdf
Another data point — while the Chinese are stand-offish and removed in Africa, they and Indians are well integrated and important in Silicon Valley. See the work of Annalee Saxenian:
http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~anno/Papers/
(For a short article on the topic, see her:
https://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/rb/RB_502ASRB.pdf).
While you are looking things up, how about looking up the Chinese birthrate before and after their one child policy reforms were instituted?
I really liked your blog! It helped me alot…
“MADE IN THE USA? This emblem still resonates around the world as “worth every penny” durability.”
You’re kidding right? Have you noted what happened to the car industry?
And speaking of the car industry, keep an eye on the future. It was interesting to see the Chinese battery manufacturer that has had 8500 engineers working on their plans to be the top car manufacturer in the world within 10 years. They see the gasoline based car industry as having a very strict time horizon.
They aren’t just working on building the batteries that we westerners taught them how to build. They are using the knowledge to aim for the future.
In my country today, Japanese cars are regarded as the only quality mass-produced vehicles but are closely being matched by vehicles from Korea. And more are now appearing from China. But I’m not seeing any great influx of US-built vehicles and from my experiences in hiring US-built vehicles in recent years, that’s unlikely to change.
Thanks for this post, seriously, can you become a author for wikipedia because the current stuff hosted there for our interest is frankly garbage. I don’t quite agree exactly with it but I agree with it on the most part and I certainly applaud your effort in putting it so clearly.
Bob,
I tend to agree with your prognosis and I appreciate your world view since you have lived, worked and visited over 100 countries in last 40 years. I think you know things at much deeper level than most people leaving comments here.
I have also been fortunate to have been working and living for last 26 years in US, Japan, India and Spain (all work related) and have visited around 20 more countries on business like Singapore, Korea, Taiwan, Australia, Israel, Canada, UK, Ireland, Greece etc.
Although China has done and is still doing fantastically well in all fronts compare to India except may be IT Software and Pharmaceuticals but in my mind also the long term emergence will come from Soft power of handling complexities of the world, that is, the ‘software’ of 21st century than from the ‘hardware’.
I think most people see the ‘hardware’ transformation of China, which they have done an amazing job of (never before in the history of human existence). But if we take similarity of last century the Soviets had done equally great from 1920s till 1960 or so. Yes, they fell due to economic system, which is already capitalistic in China and like someone here said that the Chinese people culturally are capitalistic since 5000 years.
However since India is a functioning Anarchy or a result producing Chaos – whatever way you put it (and have always been in its 5000 history too) it will certainly the an equally emergent power whether bigger than China only time will tell; but certainly not less than China.
The Europeans and their derivatives (Aussies, Yanks, Canadians, Kiwis etc.) worked hard, used technology and went all over the world for last 3-4 hundred years and hence have dominated the world. Chinese and Indians are doing it now and hence they will dominate the world too for sure.
And I continue to be bullish on the US too. As its founding fathers (although all were Euro-derivatives – euphemistically [and popularly] called whites) created a nation and system which allows all human beings to come and prosper and hence it will continue to the Super Power in all spheres, but certainly not remain the only Hyper power that it is for last 20-30 years.
As for as 22nd century goes I think by then humans would have forgotten (hopefully) dividing themselves by races, nations etc. It will be truly a human kind century, I believe.
Thanks for writing this, a completely new perspective than most people.
Disclaimer: I am an Indian who was born, raised and educated in India and now live in the US and continue to work globally since 1984. I am an unabased student of history and social sciences, despite being an Electrical Engineer and an MBA by training. Also currently I work in Life Sciences industry (Biotech and Pharma) and support companies from 4 different continents. So all biases of my experiences are present in my comments.
USA Where!
The Chinese bought and exported complete Rare Earths mining Company under the noses of Congress. It steals via internet tons of IT property and buys cheap rights it can’t. Washington DC has no idea has no vision has no teeth except as mouth pieces of big business who have no idea except making money!
India is in trouble cause it has no water!! and is bureaucratically corrupt and has a multitude of ‘everything’ = divergent.
[…] even heel anders naar de lopende mondiale ontwikkelingen laat kijken. Een paar fragmenten uit zijn prima leesbare verhaal: (…) What I find interesting is that most people just take it as bible truth that China will […]
…I am Indian and have lived in the US for several years, after leaving India mid-career. Bob, your words sound reassuring, but even the most jingoistic Indian in India is unlikely to buy them words. There’s heckuva long way India has to go to amp up its economic growth rate, and China and India are simply not comparable. But imagine with ramshackle infrastructure that hasn’t changed very much in 10 years, the country has already moved up from 6%/year GDP growth to about 9% now. India being a democracy will grow but by tempering expectations. since there are so many conflicting interests, it will be decades before consensus across vast regions emerges. So it may never catch up with China economically but will manage to retain an edge and an edge there, wherever the government believes it can let go. That’s how the services sector and R&D have grown, but that’s not the same thing happening with manufacturing. But India’s depressed agricultural sector has so much room for growth that in states where it has grown far above national average, (Gujarat 11%/year, Bihar 8%/year compared to national average of 4%) political stability has ensued. While China seeks global dominance, India seeks regional stability, as beyond its immediate circle of neighbors it will by default cultivate strong relationships to counteract the machinations of its immediate neighbors. So Indian moves will not appear earthshaking or even swift, but will be subtle. There’s also an enormous amount of Indian soft influence in China, with yoga and Hinduism gaining very friendly attention, with which India hopes the future generation of leaders will be more favorably disposed towards India. The Indian government again does not support these soft measures in any way, preferring to give up and let go any actor who it thinks can work responsibly. China is very conscious of Indian influence and never underestimates its power, as a Chinese functionary used to put it in the 1970s, “India changed all of China over a period of 500 years without sending a single soldier over the mountains, by merely sending one humble monk, who carried Buddhism into our land.”
I am also intrigued how blase Americans are at the prospect of Chinese dominance but are very troubled by any sign of Indian ascendancy.
There are virtually no “Chinese” CEOs amongst the ranks of multinationals. Yeah, we call that the “Chinese glass ceiling” here in the US. ^_<
You want to be the head of a company? Go start one yourself. That's the clear lesson to the "Chinese". Even here in US.
BTW, I"m not trying to make some sort of social or political statement here. It's just been the experience.
I think the point of globalisation was to equalise everyone.
As cheap manufacturing jobs move to the developing world, those countries become reacher and therefore loose their competitive advantage.
Here in Ireland we’re already seeing that as call-center jobs and cheap outsourcing is moving back here from India. Along with their poor wages.
No one country is going to replace the US.
What’s actually happening is that the rich (investment funds, bankers, directors and CEOs) are getting disproportionally richer and the middle classes are being destroyed as their jobs have either disappeared or their wages have been driven down (or stayed constant not taking into account inflation) by both inward immigration and jobs either going abroad or being driven down by the prices abroad.
The rich and the companies they run and own don’t care about what country is “on top”. It’s all “multinational” now and what that means is a removal of democracy and a world that’s run by the big corporations and banks.
It’s their century not the Chinese or Indian, or even the US.
Oh joyous day yes. This is the perfect reason I was born. To find you, my long lost blogger soul-mate.
Bob, aren’t you confusing WWI and WWII? The main US contribution to WWI was the fresh bodies being sent over – 10,000 a day by 1918 [Wikipedia]. The US materiel was most certainly the main factor in the Allied victory in WWII.
I’ve been saying for probably 5 years now that Clive of India will be the most important political figure of the 21st century, and now you’re saying it too. It’s all about Britain and her colonies – yes, America, that includes you. The world has been British since Trafalgar and Waterloo ended France’s hopes. Germany never was a world power. Communism had to collapse inward. America succeeded Britain (and thank God for that), and if America lets the brass ring slip away it will be superseded by India, working together with South Africa and Australia (and Canada, if Quebec ever grows up). The world will be British for the foreseeable future. The Chinese could have beaten us all, but they turned inward in the 1430s, and haven’t looked outward since. They’re still not looking outward. They only leave the middle kingdom to acquire resources. This is still all they’re doing – ask the Africans. They show up, splash money around, take all the bauxite and iron ore, and leave. It’s no way to culturally dominate a planet, and they won’t.
Diaspora – the dispersion of the Jews after the Babylonian and Roman conquests of Palestine.
You’re right Bob – China doesn’t have this!! 😉
The reasons you give Bob, which a i agree with completely, can be put down to one thing: The British Empire.
I’m sure most Americans have a pretty dim view of the British Empire, but if you look at the infrastructure that still exists in India, you can see it wasn’t all Opium and Slavery.
The importance of English Common Law is overlooked.
The rest of the world is dominated by Civil Code (Napoleonic Law). Because of a lack of judicial review (activist judges) Civil Code countries became battle grounds for ideologies. When the Liberal International System Britain help create fell into crisis beginning in 1914, Civil Code Nations fell into rogue ideological rule: Communism, Fascism, Naziism, Falangism, Militarism and so on. Not so the Common Law coutnries… they waddled through the crisis with using their own ideology of pragmatism until they came up with a pragmatic solution to the crisis, essentially the New Deal.
WWII then was really English Common Law versus Civil Code countries, with two Civil Code countries on our side: Russia and France. Common Law won. After the war Civil Code countries began adopting judicial review.
Which would make me feel all warm and fuzzy, except that the US is now more of a Civil code country than a common law country. Also, I would argue that common law _requires_ “activist judges” as common law is case law. The common law cannot adapt to changing conditions without “activist judges”
Bingo!… A very big Bingo.
Movement conservatives would have us abandon our common law heritage, to impose ideological based rule upon us. The ideology is spun from Leo Strauss (see Neoconservativism), which uses religion as a tool, by the way. Strauss’s philosophy was shaped in Pre-WWII Germany. His entire framing of politics is built upon assumptions intrinsic to Civil Code rule. Strauss left Germany in the 1930s. So Strauss wasn’t exposed, first hand to worst aspects of Civil Code rule: in Germany that culminated in death camps, genocide, and the nation smoldering in ruins, occupied and split up by its enemies. Continental Europe got the message, Strauss did not.
Movement conservatives railing against ‘activist judges’ is then an attempt to back us into a civil code straight jacket, and created conditions favorable to ideological based rule, of which they assume they are the ones to prevail.
Because movement conservatives see things through an ideological prism, they automatically miscast liberals pragmatism as socialism, because the opposite of conservativism is socialism. The larger truth, that they don’t see, is that the opposite of ideologicalism is pragmatism.
Common Law pragmatism isn’t perfect, for starters, it’s reactive in nature and doesn’t anticipate much, but as a system it is the best way to run a society… one man’s hypocracy is another man’s pragmatism. One man’s vice is another’s virtue.
.
Oh,nice article. Good informations..
I will tell fairly … the first time has come on your site on purpose “clever spam”. 🙂 But to write that that close on a theme it is necessary to read. Has started to read – it was pleasant, Has subscribed and with pleasure I read. Very to be pleasant your site – interesting The maintenance, pleasant design for reading … 🙂
I will tell fairly … the first time has come on your site on purpose “clever spam”. 🙂 But to write that that close on a theme it is necessary to read. Has started to read – it was pleasant, Has subscribed and with pleasure I read. Very to be pleasant your site – interesting The maintenance, pleasant design for reading … 🙂
I will tell fairly … the first time has come on your site on purpose “clever spam”. 🙂 But to write that that close on a theme it is necessary to read. Has started to read – it was pleasant, Has subscribed and with pleasure I read. Very to be pleasant your site – interesting The maintenance, pleasant design for reading … 🙂
Oh,nice article. Good informations..
I will tell fairly … the first time has come on your site on purpose “clever spam”. 🙂 But to write that that close on a theme it is necessary to read. Has started to read – it was pleasant, Has subscribed and with pleasure I read. Very to be pleasant your site – interesting The maintenance, pleasant design for reading … 🙂
There is not the slightest evidence–in any field of human endeavor–that India will ever amount to anything. It has a large, illiterate population led by a large, corrupt political bureaucracy, but that is all. It’s ‘democracy’ is an even crueller joke than America’s
And that is different from China how? Or are you arguing that US indebtedness to China is a straw man, and the US will continue to dominate?
Interesting article, though I dont agree with most of what it says. I think China has better prospects in almost everything (educated workforce, energy security, infrastructure, diplomatic network, even ecological sustainability if you compare it with the unmitigated disaster that is India), except democracy, freedom of thought and, closely related, innovation. One party system and central planning may have some advantages, but they come with a cost: repression of alternatives and ideological indoctrination, not a very good recipe for innovation in my view. But who knows, China´s political system can and probably will change a lot…
I find very surprising the assertion that China lacks a functional diaspora. Maybe the author should explain what exactly he understands by functional: only high or medium level executives in Western firms can be counted as functional? Anyway, the commercial Chinese diaspora in South East Asia is centuries old, doing extensive business everywhere from New Zealand and Australia to Philippines, Thailand or Indonesia. What would be of Hong Kong or Singapore without the Chinese diaspora? In the last 30 years the networks of Chinese business have expanded to encircle the whole world, with Chinese shops, factories, sweatshops, warehouses, internal financing arrangements, etc. I dont really know, but I doubt India has a business diaspora of such vastness, reach and potential. The Indian CEO diaspora argument is quite far-fetched in my opinion. Like a previous commenter said, Westernized individuals integrated in companies are just that, individuals, subsumed in much larger institutions. Commercial ethnic diasporas are something very different, their main characteristic being precisely that they are not Westernized, keeping stronger economic ties with the country of origin and thus directly contributing to its economic growth.
China does not seem to have any notion of ownership of intellectual property, which is absolutely fatal in innovation in science or technology. Who is going to invest anything in developing something you can’t make any money out of? If you think the government is going to pay, consider that the Chinese government sponsors thousands of journals full of plagiarized and falsified content; how is this going to produce any useful scientific or technological breakthroughs?
This write-up gives the light by which we are able to observe the actuality. this really is very nice 1 and provides in depth info. thanks for this good article.
What is your RSS feed URL? I’d like to add to my feedburner.
A lot of people would surely agree with what you just stated. These things surely occur in a person’s daily life. I give this a top rating!
[…] The Chinese Decade (cringely.com) Filed under China, a ramshackle country, about death, blogging, photos/images ← There is little doubt that Annie Leibovitz is an artist LikeBe the first to like this post. […]
Thanks for the informative post!
You really make it seem so easy with your viewpoint but I find thistopic to be really something which I think I would never understand.
Every time I read a great article I go ahead and do some things:1.Share it with my close contacts.2.Bookmark it in all of the popular bookmarking websites.3.Be sure to visit the same site where I first read the post.After reading this article I’m seriously thinking of going ahead and doing all three…
Oh Cringely, you used to write such good, insightful blogs, but alas no more. Gee, Americans don’t assimilate very much either and they’re no where to be found in non-U.S. companies as top managers.
Perhaps you should turn your own query around? Who should be doing the assimilatin’ these days. Maybe it’s the non-Chinese.
Unsuccessful diaspora? You’ve got to be kidding. Most of Southeast Asia is run by the Chinese diaspora. For that matter, most of the U.S.’s high tech industry is powered by the Chinese diaspora.
But I guess all this doesn’t fit into your white, English-oriented schema of the world.
The one thing I remember cringely for is the PBS documentary on silicon valley many years ago, which was interesting. This article is utter bull crap. There are so many problems with the arguments and cherry picked evidence that I’m not going to waste my time listing.
And that’s exactly the point. There is so much ignorance and bias against China that the West is an ostrich with it’s head in the ground when talking about china. And China doesn’t care. They are working and moving towards progress on their own terms and for their own benefit. Every week, we are surprised about another breakthrough by china. Top supercomputer. Fastest train. Largest train network. First maglev. Massive urbanization. Outright leadership in practical green tech (do any of you still doubt this?). The list goes on. Do you think these kinds of accomplishments will slow or increase in the next few decades? Answer this, and you’ll partly be able to answer whose century it will belong to.
Cringely, you need to get out of your ostrich hole.
Sure, the Chinese can build magnetic trains and the fastest semiconductors, steal all the lithium from Bolivia and produce cheap batteries…but they are still using squat toilets (when people aren’t pissing in the streets), you can’t find a tampon to save your life, everyone is a pack a day smoker and they think Kabaddi is a sport.
Western wealth is built on the slave trade and the rape and pillaging of colonies and ill gotten lands. This is the fundamental truth no one in the west admits to. Instead, we think everything we have is the result of our own hard labor and ingenuity. This is perhaps the biggest lie in history.
And one more important point. China’s primary goal is not domination. It’s to keep the people happy and limit unrest. Domination would be an added bonus, but the leadership of china, if nothing else, is pragmatic. Do you really think they go around thinking how they will conquer the world as their main priority? My point is that the way you frame your argument completely misses the point and is irrelevant to China. And this can be generalized to the entire western media and punditry.
A very, very excellent article. It is all thanks to the seeds layed by the British, and that is very good for the whole English-speaking world. Yes, the British did some horrible things in India, but all decent Brits are ashamed of that. There is NO DOUBT, that thanks to India, English will dominate centuries more. Mandarin will NEVER ever dominate the world despite the dreams of Chinese people. The whole writing system is also so retarded. About India vs China, there really is NO COMPARISON, just look back 10,000 years, you will see that China (and in fact no Mongloid country) has been as innovative and contributed as much as India or to a larger degree the entire Caucasoid world (India, Middle-East, Europe). There is absolutely No Comparison, the difference is actually quite embarrassing. Just as we see here in the US and England, the Chinese/Oriental communities are NO MATCH for the Indian community, likewise China is no match for India (never has been and never will be). China will likely break-up within 20 years. I see with my own eyes every day that Indians are much more likely to be friendly, interact with different races and feel at ease in the West. The Chinese (and Orientals in general be it Japs, Koreans, Filipinos etc) though I almost always see have BIG FROWNS on their faces, always looking mad and mean, like walking zombies, like empty shells with no souls. America is truly great because if its English heritage and language, culture. In fact, we can say, that England is the King of Europe, or the Master of Europe. Many French and Germans will cry and feel hate at these words, but it is the truth. Look at the world. And thanks to India, English is here to stay a LONG, LONG time. Don’t worry, we will NEVER have to learn the language or culture of the Chinese, Japs, Koreans, Filipinos, French, Germans, Italians, Spaniards etc etc..
[…] Nguồn: Robert X. Cringely […]
[…] Nguồn: Robert X. Cringely […]
[…] Nguồn: Robert X. Cringely […]
Thank you for writing such a great piece. All the data you put was very applicable and useful. You have been able to aid a lot of readers with all that you perform.
Thanks for this great website. I am trying to read some more posts but I cant get your website to display properly in my Opera Browser. Thanks again.
I know it is pretty cool for all.
3 I.T experts united and created a forexrobot that: a.) grows small forex accounts into tens of thousands of dollars within a couple of months b.) never lost the deposit since 1999 c.) works fully automated! Read more..
Every time I see a good post I go ahead and do one of three thing:1.Show it to my close contacts.2.keep it in some of the favorite sharing websites.3.Make sure to visit the website where I came accross the article.After reading this post I’m really concidering doing all of the above.
dating sites are a pain in the arse because of the “hidden” fees, the site might be free but the messaging isn’t.
Hey really nice blog, I discovered your site as I was doing some study on possibly how to develop my blog. I was simply inquiring what spam software program you use for comments because I get lots on my blogs. Addominali
Hey really nice blog, I discovered your site as I was doing some study on possibly how to develop my blog.
It is great how plenty of us are able to connect to all the topics you have written about. We need more writers like you that are appropriate. Go on with the good work!
Cringely, you make a number of good points I have often thought about myself. One other observation is that if you travel around the world you find all the children are learning english. All the kids in Indonesia for example (third most populous country) are learning english, not Chinese. Remember when “everyone was going to need to learn Japanese?” That sure didn’t happen. Another observation is that Indians are gregarious and are just plain easy to get to know and like. While China is going about the world poking sticks into hornets’ nests like the US does, they are more easily made into the boogey man because they are clanish and communism sapped a lot of empathy and compassion for other people, including other citizens, even other Han Chinese. A lot of the world is coming to resent the mainland Chinese. In contrast, the only enemies Indians have are the Pakistanis.
Seems to me that you are just taking the side opposite to the crowd…
Seems also to me ( and not only.. ) that CHINA is only interested ( among other things ) to be a regional power and not a global one contrary to the US.. Will the US allow that ? Not sure… but in few years the chineses will have anyway an “over the horizon radar ” and long range missiles able to destroy the US fleet if it had the idea per instance to come in the Taiwan strait…
Finally, I am very, very skeptical about forecast…
In 2005 not so many peoples have seen the mortgage crash coming..
Nobody knows the future !
Thank you, that wasreally interesting. Actually,I was born in Moscow in 1972 but my mother and I fled the country and came here to the UK. Honestly, I didnt really care much about my russian history until my mum died last month, now I’ve been trying to discover as much as I possibly can. Seemed like food culture was as good a place as any to start ! You dont generally hear much about russian cuisine do you? Anyway, I found a a good russian recipe site here that other readers might be interested in .
I’m not calling you a racist, Bob, but there is more than a tad of racial prejudice against Asia generally in these arguments (in yours and the comments). I think the idea of British DNA being responsible for good management only pleases Brits and Americans. India, a country with thousands of years more civilization under its belt than England, is only successful because the Mongols were knocked off by the East India Company? That’s ridiculous. Please also consider that China has been the world’s largest economy overall for thousands of years, with only a short hiatus during the past century or so. Look it up–I’ll wait.
I beg to differ,the last century was all American,lol. thats joke right ? the last 2 centuries have been British my friend. the us have added nothing to the world but failure. For a country that has never won a war against one of its third world opponents ,vietnam , cuba , 2 x iraq , 2 x afghanistan ,somalia and others and also managed to keep every one against each other and instill greed and selfishness into its entire population , while living on credit from china , you people seem to have a very high opinion of yourselfs.Hundreds of years from now , people will say “why did they country collapse into dust ” .The us has never been a super power in any ones minds but there own .A super power needs friends as well as enemies and the sneaky under handed tricks of the us goverments from the start of their pointless and short history has been nothing but nasty and selfish.
im seriously sick of the battery on my android going down so fast, it annoys the poo outta me, see what happens, find a good site and BAM my battery is dead, so yeah, i luckily had enough battery to read this and post the comment haha, i have no life. yay me!
Thanks, that wasreally interesting. Actually,I was born in Thailand in 1969 but my parents fled and came here in Britain. To be honest, I didnt really care much about my Thai heritage until my mum died last month, now I’ve been trying to discover as much as I can. Seemed like the food was as good a place as any to start ! Anyway, I found a load of thai food recipes here that your readers might be interested in .
haha you wrote a typo! other than that I’d say this is a great blog! Keep up the nice work
Useful data, many because of the author. It is puzzling to me now, however typically, the usefulness and importance is overwhelming. Very much thanks once more and good luck!
By far the most concise and up to date information I found on this topic
Thanks for taking the time to discuss and share this with us, I for one really feel strongly about it and really enjoyed learning more about this topic. I can see that you possess a degree of expertise on this subject matter, I would quite considerably like to hear more from you on this subject – I have bookmarked this page and will return soon to hear more about it.
Buy $10 Replica Designer Sunglasses with 3-day FREE SHIPPING
It’s a really good post and must say that there is some right in Your words.
I will back here again… Wish you luck and will come back at this blog
This post rocks!
It’s a really good post and I must say that there is some right in Your post.
Will come back here soon… Wish you all the best and i’m glad to found this website
I am glad to found such useful post. I really increased my knowledge after read your post which will be beneficial for me.collector .
Hello there, just became aware of your blog through Google, and found that it is truly informative. I am going to watch out for brussels. I’ll appreciate if you continue this in future. Many people will be benefited from your writing. Cheers!
So what is the magic mix? Well I am going to provide game away at my so next seminar on E-Mail Marketing but here is a sneak preview of the weather that Ive discovered have a massive impact on results
Thank you very nice place to implement for Happy
or a place is really very nice thanks
But in the end that wasn’t true any more than the idea that Harry Houdini’s stomach could take any punch.
out of inertia and greed and ignorance of the very world we created. We did it to ourselves by thinking that nothing could really hurt us. But in the end that wasn’t true any more than the idea that Harry Houdini’s stomach could take any punch.
รายได้เสริมทางเน็ต…
[…]I, Cringely » Blog Archive » The Chinese Decade – Cringely on technology[…]…
fear was very real. so real i…
only wrote one blog post in 2006, and when i finally picked up blogging again in 2009 that fear was still there.today i’m not scared of putting my name to my writing and i’ve become a confident writer. or as confident…
e wie einfach
[…]one of our visitors recently encouraged the following website[…]
HENS NIGHT
[…]The information and facts talked about within the post are a number of the very best obtainable […]
garage door service
[…]Wonderful story, reckoned we could combine some unrelated information, nevertheless actually worth taking a appear, whoa did one particular learn about Mid East has got far more problerms too […]
I-STOP
[…]we came across a cool web site that you simply may enjoy. Take a appear in the event you want[…]