The last decade hasn’t been a very good one for venture capitalists, showing poor returns for their investors. There are many reasons for this including over-expansion, poor management, and a dearth of companies going public. Now to make matters worse Congress is trying to take away the VC’s traditional greatest single source of income, called “carried interest” — their piece of the pie, so to speak. That is if there was any pie. I’m not here to defend carried interest, nor to condemn it. My purpose is to point out that the VC industry will just restructure itself to regain any lost income if carried interest is taken away.
Easy go, easy come.
Venture capitalists raise money from investors like pension funds, university endowments, wealthy individuals and insurance companies — institutions that don’t claim any special expertise in technology investments. The idea is that this money will be invested in a basket of tech startups and more mature private technology companies over a period of 7-10 years after which the fund will be liquidated or refinanced and the money returned to the original investors, hopefully along with a large profit — a capital gain. During that period the money doesn’t actually sit in some VC’s mattress — they have the right to call on their investors to pay as-needed. VC’s make their money by getting a management fee that is usually two percent of the fund total ($20 million per year for a $1 billion fund) and take a 20 percent share of any eventual profit. This share of the fund’s capital gain is called “carried interest.”
Since it is a share of a capital gain, carried interest has always been taxed as a capital gain, which means currently at a maximum 15 percent federal tax rate. But Congress has lately been looking for more revenue and carried interest sure looks like a commission — regular income — taxable at up to 35 percent. The difference between these two tax rates amounts to more than $1 billion per year, even in the current lousy venture economy. It’s that $1 billion they are fighting over.
Only the real amount is much larger, because there is huge pent-up profit to be shared among venture investments as the economy improves. Better times are clearly ahead or the VC firms wouldn’t still be successfully raising money.
Carried interest isn’t peculiar to VC’s, either. The proposed changes also affect hedge funds and private equity funds — both of which are far larger than the $20 billion venture capital industry.
I’m not, nor have I ever been, a VC but I know lots of them and understand the crux of their dilemma: they like their Porsches.
Carried interest clearly is a commission, not a capital gain, since VCs typically have almost none of their own capital at risk. They’ll argue this point, by the way, but 100-to-1 leverage based on borrowed money looks like pretty close to nothing to me.
So Congress will pass a law making carried interest taxable as regular income and the venture funds might, in response, move their incorporations to Bermuda or the Cayman Islands, evading taxation altogether. Or maybe they’ll restructure, creating some derivative security that cleverly sequesters exactly 20 percent of any gain in some unassailable place in the space-money continuum. These are exactly the kind of threats being made right now by lobbyists trying to preserve the status quo.
In this case — since Porsches are at stake — I think they mean it.
That’s no reason not to change the tax treatment of carried interest, but every reason to believe that it won’t lead to a measurable increase in tax revenue.
We need a better idea. Do you have one?
We don’t need a measurable increase in tax revenue, we need a measurable decrease in federal and state spending.
Really? I disagree. And most venture capitalists would probably agree with me, if it wasn’t their money being debated at the moment. Taxation pays for state and federal research (read: SPENDING) which creates the nurseries from which the venture capitalists help grow the seeds of future industry. Lowered spending is not the issue. Smarter spending is. Starting with funds for an FCC with some balls so people such as yourself are not brainwashed by Fox/WSJ to believe that the problems are where they are not.
You actually had me considering your response until you jumped off the cliff into accusations of brainwashing. I don’t watch Fox News and I don’t read the WSJ.
I would much rather have VCs making the decisions on where to invest than having the government decide where to invest (ethanol subsidies come to mind). VCs appear to be far smarter in evaluating choices, and when they fail they actually have consequences for bad decisions. When the government makes a bad decision the consequences almost always fall on the taxpayers.
Coming back to ethanol as an example, that process clearly is not viable and is propped up almost completely by subsidies; at this point our government cannot make a sensible decision to stop, much less back out gracefully, because the whole thing is mired in politics. After decades of failure, at what point do the taxpayers get any return on their investment?
If a VC fails, the taxpayer is not hurt. On the other hand, if a VC hits it out of the park, everyone wins through more jobs, including the governments via more taxes on income and dividends.
“If a VC fails, the taxpayer is not hurt.”
That money still comes from somewhere. Failed VC projects can certainly hit investors hard, particularly in cases of institutional investment where the pool of small investors can find all their money gone without knowing beforehand where it was specifically invested.
Also, you fail to mention when governments get things right too, a lot of people can benefit (lots of publicly funded innovations out there e.g. the internet).
So you mean all those welfare and entitlement programs are helping research new venture capital ideas?
Yes, in fact. Without those programs, demand for the stuff made by the startups funded by VCs would evaporate. Do you really think the top 1% (who are nearly the sole beneficiary of Right Wing giveaways since Reagan) is enough folks to buy all the stuff startups make??? Not a chance.
I guess it doesn’t occur to you that those benefiting from those entitlement programs are more of a drain on society than a benefit, and they don’t contribute much to the GDP either as their entitlements outweigh any potential contribution. Eliminate the entitlements and the economy will grow dramatically as it (i) frees up money to be spent elsewhere, (ii) reduces taxation, and (iii) reduces debt.
Yes. And I take this “welfare recipients are lazy scum” type of comment personally. I spent a good deal of my childhood on and off such programs, growing up in a broken home. However, that does NOT mean I wanted a perpetual handout. I went to college, got my degree (computer science), and got to work, thank you very much.
Thus, I cal “BS”, and say “no thanks” to feudalism in disguise.
One of the problems that we have in the USA is that our taxes are TOO LOW. I know, no one wants to believe that our tax load is the lowest in the industrialized world. We try to do everything that Europe does for their populations – and they tax at 70%-80%. We want our cake and eat it too – sounds about right doesn;t it?
Everyone hates taxes. Everyone thinks they are too high (if they are greater than zero …). But if you look at the total tax burden, we are at the low end.
A long, long, long time ago, the great Oliver Wendall Holmes said “I love paying taxes. Taxes are the price we pay for civilization.”
He said that long before Somalia proved his point.
There is no free lunch, son.
Is your knowledge of Somalia’s conditions limited to State-licensed media reports? South Park doesn’t count either.
https://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/somalia-failed-state-economic-success/
“…So Congress will pass a law making carried interest taxable as regular income and the venture funds might, in response, move their incorporations to Bermuda or the Cayman Islands, evading taxation altogether…”
I get a kick out of you financial buccaneers and your peculiar, reality-free world view. In fact, for the majority of humans, standard of living, health, and life span are associated with *greater* bureaucracy, regulation and government spending and intervention.
You anti-government freebooters should move to Waziristan, so that the rest of us can avoid your wrecking of the economy (you have been paying attention to what happened during the last two years, right?) and your wrecking of the environment (BP, anyone?).
As for your fleeing VCs, that’s a simple one – confiscate their wealth and revoke their citizenship. We’re better off without them.
And some people have badddddd things to say about me. FWIW, I spent the last two days reading “The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo”, wherein the protagonist makes a very interesting comment on markets and economies, in the last few pages. It’s worth the read as a thriller, but given that it was written in Sweden before 2004 (not exactly sure when, but that’s its original publication), Larsson was prescient.
“As for your fleeing VCs, that’s a simple one – confiscate their wealth and revoke their citizenship. We’re better off without them.”
What will you say when people want to revoke Your citizenship and steal/confiscate Your assets?
Is this the kind of freedom you want in the country you live in? So you want more regulation, and also less of the freedoms associated with the U.S.’s Declaration of Independence and Constitution?
Yes, more regulation of those who can, and have, destroyed an economy. Be careful how much Social Darwinism you demand; there are some rather large poor folks you don’t want to deal with in a Purely Darwinist manner. They’ll crush you like a cockroach.
Uhm, hmmm, Patriots pay their taxes. Traitors run from it.
Refusing to pay ones taxes is illegal and subject to harsh penalties. OTOH, we all take advantage of some legal loophole or another; e.g. paying less tax because you have dependents is a legal loophole. The real issue is which legal loopholes should we eliminate. Unfortunately the tax law is so complex we must rely on the opinion of judges to resolve conflicts.
You do realize that it’s the government pushing oil rigs far off-shore that is why we can’t fix this well, right?
You do realize that government-imposed caps on liability is why this rig wasn’t properly insured, and hence unsafe, right?
Have you read the articles on DailyKoz about the supreme failures of the oil booming operations? Or the failure of the government to purchase the boats required under federal law to deal with the spill? Or the failure of the Coast Guard to authorize a top-kill attempt for over a month?
Clearly massive de-regulation is to blame here, eh?
— You do realize that government-imposed caps on liability is why this rig wasn’t properly insured, and hence unsafe, right?
Such unadorned crap. Those limits were written by the industry, and “imposed” by Bush II.
I don’t know if it’s a better idea, but as an alternative, the US would impose a transactional tax on investors in these funds (regardless of their status – everyone pays), and the rate would be tied to the management fee charged and carried interest. Since investors will have minimum return requirements, the funds will have to effectively reimburse them for the tax. It won’t capture revenues from offshore funds investing money from offshore sources, but don’t we want more of that anyway?
Is this the same thing as the Automated Payment Transaction (APT) tax?
@Cringely: What do you think of the APT-tax idea?
What we need is to do away with all of this income tax and tax consumption instead. What we need is the FairTax. It does away with all income and capital gains replacing them with a 23% national sales tax. Everyone gets a $500 per month pre-bate which levels the playing field and means that anyone at or below the poverty level isn’t paying taxes. This would encourage investment and savings, it would increase employees paychecks because the portion that is federal income tax would stay in their pockets and it would encourage companies to come to the US. Also it could bring back an estimated $1 trillion dollars sitting in on-shore accounts due to income tax. And because this is a sales tax, everyone pays it including people that are living by cash (criminals, illegal aliens, etc.). It can’t be avoided.
You can learn more about it at http://www.fairtax.org. I’m not affiliated with this organization but I do believe in what they are proposing.
Sales tax, by whatever name, is beloved by the Right Wingnuts since it is highly regressive. That is its only reason for being. It has no other “benefit”.
that’s not true. simplicity is also a benefit.
benefit to whom?? sounds a lot like those Texas judges who allow innocents to be executed, without DNA testing because the outcome has to be “final”?
there is the famous quote (approx.): to all complex problems there is always a simple answer which is wrong.
No, the FairTax has the upfront rebate, which makes it progressive, not regressive.
OTOH, how you do that is up for question. How do illegals and others in the underground economy get their prebate? Do we all start buying our groceries with a govt-issued credit card? Uh, no thank you to that … still, interesting idea, worth exploring. I do think that over time congress would gradually make it more and more regressive, knowing who pays for their elections.
as for how do illegal aliens get their pretax… that’s the benefit… foreigners, whether legal or illegal, have to register for their tax rebate (as a non-Canadian, ever buy anything in Canada?). They only get it when they ‘leave’ the country, on a valid visa/passport (ingres/egress registered). I like it. (I have no problem with undocumented americans, I have a problem with a restricted immigration policy).
Sales taxes will drive to a underground or barter economy. which isn’t a bad thing at all. Aircraft carriers will be taxed, but Grandma’s tomato sauce sold at her garage sale will not.
as for taxing VC’s… corporate profit should still be taxed, but I personally think the tax should be 23% (the VAT) of the net profits of the fund, then tax free to the recipients. That $1Billion fund would generate 230Million in taxes, and be tax free to all the recipients after that… (the VC would get their 154Million… which is just about half way between the 35% and the 15% rate).
You need to go learn about embedded taxes. Read the Harvard papers, seriously.
A single mother of three children working a minimum wage job is paying nearly $4000 per year in _other people’s_ income taxes. About 50 cents of the $2 loaf of bread she buys for her kids’ lunches is embedded income tax costs. It’s unavoidable and punishingly regressive.
Geoff,
I agree 100%. It’s the fairest option for sure, however, I have NO faith or trust in our government. I truly believe anything that is good for the people is never going to fly; our lawmakers are way too greedy, and everyone is bought off by some corporation. Common sense is lost in all the red tape. Unfortunately, anyone with the right ideas will never reach the top positions of our government. Those days are long gone, if they ever really existed in the first place. We have lost our visions, Souls have been sold to the highest bidder. We can’t even take care of The Greatest Generation with dignity and respect. Our sons and daughters are fighting a war and being thrown to the wolves upon their return. The waste in every aspect of government is sinful. There is no integrity or justice left in America.
Big Business decides everything, and they will sacrifice anyone and everyone for the almighty dollar. God help us all.
Well, which government? It was 28 years from the start of Reagan to the end of Bush II, and two of the three elected branches of government were owned by the Right Wingnut Republicans for 22 of those years. Under Clinton, government functioned well, and ended in surplus. Until Jan. 2009, you’ve been the victim of Republicans. Blame those who were in charge.
When you denounce government, be quite clear, in your own mind, who was running the government you despise (remember Brownie???). It was the Right Wingnuts who destroyed governance, and they did it on purpose.
It is pathetic to listen to those Louisiana Rednecks complain that The Gummint hasn’t fixed the oil spill. They’re the ones who spout that business is the only competent actor. Such stupidity and hypocrisy. They voted for Reagan, the Bushies, and Gingrich, and now complain when Big Oil screws up their lives. The Right Wingnut MMS was in charge when these practices developed. The management is still from Bush, except for some political appointees. Do you really think that the high GS folks that got there under Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II just disappeared a year ago??? Are you that naive’???
You missed the 8 years of Clinton in that last line!!!
Having been a Fed under both Republican and Democratic administrations, I assert from that experience: Republicans bend the civil service rules at least an order of magnitude more than the Democrats. And, if you read the news when Bush II arrived, he set about assaulting the civil servants, as is the wont of Republicans. Remember: they *want* government to fail. Thus Brownie and as many like minded civil servants as possible. Interior, where MMS is, was a favorite target of Republicans. Remember Watt??
So, no, I’d bet a nickel that bad actors in the civil service will have gotten there under Reagan and the Bushies.
We are currently in a deep demand-deficient recession. Evidence of this is deflation.
We had a deflationary recession back in 2001 – a sure sign that we had reached supply-side saturation then (investment bubbles and incessant cries for deruglation also are a sign of supply-side saturation because investors can’t generate reasonable roi because demand is too small relative to supply, so bubbles occur in areas that offer decent nominal returns as investment floods it, meanwhile other investors seek dereg so they can get decent returns doing things they’d been roped off from by regulation, such as payday loans, subprime mortgages etc..).
The reason for the Demand Deficient recession is we’ve had 30 years of ‘supply-side bias’ policies. In fact, median wage hasn’t gone up since 1972, while the GNP has gone up 150%. This was made worse during the Bush years. He moved at LEAST another $6 trillion to the suppy-side. In his first 4 years alone, medium family income declined 5% while the top .01% went up 500%. This is why we are in such a deep recession. In fact, the recession won’t truly end until we have powerful demand-side policies for a prolonged period of time. There is simply no way around this.
Sales tax hurt demand. Sales tax, value added taxes, are probably a bad idea at any time, but especially right now. They penalize struggling families the worst.
Too much of society’s wealth is sequestered from demand, sitting on the supply-side.
If we want out of the recession, we simply have to implement demand-side economic policies. That means moving money from the supply side back over to the demand side. Part of that is done through increase taxation on the investment side. Rich people say that will hurt investment, but in reality, the lack of demand (and therefore ROI), is what’s hurting investment.
That’s what this article is all about.
It’s not unheard of for hedge fund operators to make billions (with a B) of dollars. They pay less tax than there secretary. Taxing them doesn’t really hurt them – I mean physically. The lack of demand, causing the jobs recession does cause real physical pain to real people. Taxing struggling families also causes real pain. And because their is no demand, taxing big investors doesn’t hurt investment.
During the Eisenhower era the top bracket got hit with 90+% tax. It didn’t stop growth (though growth was aided by cheap energy prices as well). During the post war years from 1945 to 1973, all economic classes shared equally in the growth in the GNP. This kept demand high, and fueled investment.
In another era, supply-side bias policies will make sense. During an inflationary recession, for instance, like we had in 1980.
VC have gotten caught in the middle of this. But the fact is, for political reasons alone, and for simple justice, and for curing the structural lack of demand, the government has to tax those hedge fund managers who are making in some cases over a $1 billion a year at least at the same rate as the rest of us. And lets face it, some of those hedge fund managers don’t work to hard. And it doesn’t require a PHd or highly specialized training. Chelsea Clinton is a hedgfund manager and she has a history degree.
Maybe it would be worth while to set an exception aside for VC. But if we don’t tax rich people, civilization will collapse. It happened before (Roman Empire [see Nobel Laureate Douglas C. North’s “Structure and Change in Economic History, p100-115], Ancient Egypt’s New Kingdom, Byzantium (before collapse at the battle of Manzikurt), Medieval Japan, Hapsburgh Spain, Bourbon France, Romanov Russia, etc…)
I hate it when someone else channels me. 🙂
Let them leave… then revoke their ability to invest in US startups or companies as a VC.
When they leave their investers will move on to someone willing to pay 35% tax with a smile.
Yes, that’s absolutely brilliant! Now let’s put our heads together and think of even more ways to drive investment away from the United States!
No. Let us put our heads together and come up with something that is better than the broken capitalist system!
There’s no shortage of money available for investment. We’ve had 30 years of supply-side bias policies. The median income hasn’t gone up since 1972 even though GNP has gone up 150%. Bush in his first four years alone, moved some $6 trillion over to the investment (supply) side of the economy, at the expense of demand. During Bush’s first term, median family income went down 5% while the top .01% went up 500%.
There’s no shortage of money for investment.
There is a shortage of demand. There was even before Bush moved that $6 trillion over to the supply-side. How do we know? The 2001 recession was a deflationary recession.
The real problem is, in the aggregate, there is too little demand relative to supply. Nobody is going to build a factory if there is no demand for the products from that factory. (Technology is a little different in that it can exploit latent demand that pops up with every new invention – so arguably it should be treated differently, but how differently, I’m not sure.)
In order to fix investment, aggregate demand has to be increased. In order to do this, some, or all, of the money that’s been moved over to the supply side has to be moved back over to the demand side. That means taxation. The Bush years must be reversed. Anyone with remedial knowledge in civics knows this, including the banana monkeys in congress. When aggregate demand goes up, so will lots of investment opportunities.
Are their threats really credible? If there were a way to shelter their income from taxes, there’s no reason to think they wouldn’t have done it already. But offshore-onshore shenanigans are risky, both for the VCs (because the IRS may come beat on them) and for the companies they invest in. As an entrepreneur, I know we specifically avoided taking money from non-US sources because of the extra risk and headache.
Personally, I think even if this doesn’t yield any appreciable new revenue, it’s a fine thing to do anyhow. I’m ok with special treatment for capital gains, as it gets people to invest money they might not otherwise invest. But with carried interest there’s no investment and no risk on the part of the VCs. If they want capital gains treatment, they should invest.
I’m not sure how to make this work, but I say it’s time to stop letting large companies move over seas to avoid paying taxes.
[…] I, Cringely » Carried Away – legislation aimed at hedge funds provides temporary issue for VCs. […]
[…] I, Cringely » Blog Archive » Carried Away – Cringely upon technology […]
If the VCs are inclined to try incorporating offshore, there are ways to get at that money, too and imprison the people behind the VC for tax evasion. At the same time, Congress could write laws that specifically prohibit any investment in startup (non-public) companies unless the VC is incorporated in the U.S. and has all their offices and bank accounts in the U.S., as well as requiring all such beneficiaries of venture capital to report where the money came from and have records to prove it.
Without such U.S. incorporation and base, and traceable records back to the bank showing the investment, both the VC should be fined for the total sum of the investments, their assets seized and bank accounts frozen, and their owners/management should be put in prison for a minimum of 10 years and prohibited from any involvement with any public or non-public company in the future, as well as prohibited from running or participating in a VC fund.
In addition, for failing to keep records showing the provenance of the VC funds received, the company and their management should be subject to the same fate as the VC fund owners/operators.
What do you think will be the implications of that suggestion?
The venture-backed corporations will not be u.s. companies anymore either.
Think it through…
There money says “The United States of America” on it – even when it’s over seas. U.S. policy can affect them even when they are not here.
They could go to the Euro or the Swiss Franc, I suppose.
In the short term their money won’t be missed. The current recession is deflationary. There’s no shortage of investment money. There’s a shortage of demand. And when demand in the U.S. returns, they’ll miss out on it.
Still, thinking it through.
“We need a better idea.”
To do what? To take more money from venture capitalists etc.?
What makes us think that giving the money to the government is better for the economy than leaving things as they are. Is the government becoming more efficient in using the resources it takes from people? Have they improved their efficiency the way Wal-Mart has in the past decades?
Financially-saavy folks, while still irrational, do respond to incentives more readily. This, in any form, sounds like a huge incentive for them to leave the U.S.
The U.S. lost its international lead in IPO’s in the last decade (thank you, Sarbannes-Oxley). Now it looks like the government will help the U.S. lose its international lead in venture capital in this decade.
Better for who’s economy? More efficient at improving who’s life? Wal-Mart has been a disaster for small and medium sized American community life – how is that a good?
You can cut through all the BS like a laser scalpel with very simple metrics – what percentage of the country’s overall wealth was held by the top 10% of the population in 1970. What percentage today?
All else is greed and self-justification.
This is the essence of narcissistic character flaws, the disconnect from social context. When these movers and shakers arrive at their offices, it never occurs to them that the trip was made possible by the efforts of an entire culture, those that made the roads and delivered the fuel and provided the law-enforcement and military security and energy delivery and everything else that made any of Mr. Superman’s accumulation of wealth possible.
The narcissist assumes that his wonderfulness lofted him to where he is, and those cardboard cutouts barely perceived at the periphery of his vision had nothing to do with any of it. And deserve nothing.
The narcissists are people like you who believe, against all evidence, that the world would be a better place if only they could use government coercion to force others to behave according to their wishes. I don’t know what percentage of the nations wealth was held by the top 10% today vs. 40 years ago. Nor do I care. How much larger is the nation’s economy today? How many consumers in 1970 had cell phones, or computers, or Internet access, or access to medical innovations such as CAT scans and new drug therapies for diseases that were once untreatable? The list could go on and on. Do you honestly think that the standard of living of the average person in 1970 was higher than it is today? (Hint: it wasn’t).
And as far as leftist bete noir Walmart, here’s a good op-ed from a few years ago in the Washington Post (not exactly bastion of right-wing free marketers):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/27/AR2005112700687.html
Read it. The article points out, among many other inconvenient facts, that the savings that Walmart has brought it’s (mostly low-income) customers amounts to roughly $200 billion per year. It also points out that while a leading Walmart critic has calculated that Walmart’s has led to retail sector wages being approximately $5 billion less than they otherwise would have. This means that the benefits that Walmart has brought to low-income Americans outweighs the lower wages some of those same Americans experience by 40-to-1. Sounds like a pretty good trade off to me.
“…that the world would be a better place if only they could use government coercion to force others to behave according to their wishes…”
Yeah, you got me pegged. I do want government oversight of corporate America. Guilty as charged.
Government oversight of corporate America == Government oversight of citizens. When you tell a corporation what they can and can’t sell, what wages, benefits, working conditions, etc. they must provide for their employees, etc., you’re telling me what I can and cannot buy, what limitations I must accept and tradeoffs I must make in exchange for the labor I provide, etc. Thanks, but no thanks. I’m a free born citizen, not a serf, and I’d prefer to make my own decisions about how I choose to live my life instead of submitting to the whims of what government bureaucrats think is best for me. Even if we accept the (ridiculous but sadly common) premise that corporations have only the worst intentions and government employees only the best, the transactions I choose to engage in with corporations are entirely voluntary, while the fiats handed down by the government to “protect” me are backed by the threat of violence. If you feel the need to have other people tell you what to do, then by all means, go and join a cult or something. But for myself, I’ll choose voluntary exchanges with “greedy” profiteers over coercion from well-meaning busy-bodys any day, thanks.
>As for your fleeing VCs, that’s a simple one – confiscate their wealth and revoke their citizenship. We’re better off without them.
>Yeah, you got me pegged. I do want government oversight of corporate America. Guilty as charged.
I think I had you pegged after reading your very first post.
You are literally a Stalinist or a member of the Khmer Rouge. What to do with the people who oppose you? Resort to democracy? No, much easier to take away all their money and their citizenship.
Here’s a question hardcore leftists like you never think about. If you’re in favor of that kind of draconian solution to achieve what you want, is there any reason why conservatives can’t adopt the same tactics against _you_?
Of course there isn’t. I suspect that’s why the Tea Party frightens the left so much. Conservatives actually getting out and participating in mass protests. For the last generation that was the sole domain of the left. Now you’re confronted with even more people than you could ever muster, getting out and protesting against your policies and core beliefs.
You’ve revealed yourself, you’re against due process, democracy and common decency. But you’re a leftist, what I just wrote is an instance of a blinding flash of the obvious to any conservative.
@Carl Hardwick
LOL. Oh, you don’t have to educate me about the Tea Party, I live in Tennessee. They used to be called The Klan. Dropped the hoods, kept the goals.
You sound like a fraternity boy listing your charitable efforts at your Greek Council hearing for revoking your charter. No one is arguing against the benefits you list. It’s the net result that simply isn’t acceptable. Nice try at redirection.
“what percentage of the country’s overall wealth was held by the top 10% of the population in 1970. What percentage today?”
Don, why do you recommend we look at this on a single-country basis? Sounds a little nationalistic. What about poor people who earn less than $2 a day in other countries than the U.S.? Should it not count if their standards of living rise?
It’s not really a question of whether the government is a better manager of resources.
We’ve had 30 years of supply-side bias policies. Median wage hasn’t gone up since 1972, while GNP has gone up 150%.
The result is a lack of demand relative to supply (money available for investment). We hit supply side saturation back in the late 1990s (as evidenced by investment bubbles, incessant cries for deregulation and a deflationary recession in 2001).
In the face of that Bush moved another $6 trillion over to the supply side – median family income went down 5% while the top .01% went up 500%. The enormous imbalance between demand and supply is the underlying cause of the great recession.
(Supply-side saturation causes investment bubbles, and impels demands for deregulation from investors because they can’t earn decent roi from orthodox investments)
To counter act the lack of demand, we need strong, persistent and sustained demand side bias policies for a prolonged period of time.
Simply put, massive amounts of money need to be moved from the supply side back to the demand side. One of the means for that is taxation.
In regard to Sarbannes, that is a reaction to deregulation that occurred in the early 1990s. Sen Dodd led deregulation that stripped legal and accounting firms from liability for any fraudulent reporting in Corporate financial statements – the fraud occured only a few years later – WorldCom/MCI was the first wave, Enron was the last and Sarbannes was the result.
I agree that capital gains shouldn’t be taxed at a lower rate than regular income. Both should be taxed at a flat rate of 15%.
Bruce – your reply to statists/collectivists like Don is right on the money. However, if you ask me, there should be NO income tax/sales tax/capital gains tax etc. at all. Taxation based on the threat of imprisonment is equivalent to theft.
Just because this theft is done by the government who are acting in the name of the majority does not make it any less of a theft.
(Of course, I realize that you may actually be in favour of a no-taxation system from a philosophical/ideological standpoint, but may have proposed the 15% tax owing to current political realities given that moving towards a no-taxation system is realistically still a pipe-dream).
I am pretty sure that statists like Don will try to use the old “We live in a democracy” argument to argue against this. They’ll reply by saying that in a democracy, we accept the will of the majority, and since these taxes are being imposed by politicians who have been elected by the majority, we must therefore all accept these taxes.
What they forget is the true meaning of democracy. The true meaning of democracy is not “Majority Rule” – it’s “Majority Rule, but Minority Rights”, which means that the majority has no right to pass any laws that violate the rights of a minority.
All forms of compulsory taxation should be replaced with a method of voluntary funding where citizens contribute voluntarily to the government (the same way they contribute voluntarily to charity), as well as voluntary “use fees” where individuals and companies that want the help of the courts to resolve legal disputes pay a fee for the service that the courts are providing. Obviously, those individuals and companies that decline to pay the use fees will be free to do so, but won’t have recourse to the courts to resolve any legal disputes.
There are only 3 proper functions of government – the justice system (i.e. resolving disputes between individuals), the police (i.e. protecting people from criminals) and the military (i.e. protecting people from foreign aggressors).
Other than these 3 roles, in a free society, the government should have no other role whatsoever. EVERYTHING else – roads, utilities, etc. – should be provided by the free market.
In comparison to the current size of the government, these 3 roles of government hardly require that much funding and there should be no necessity of any compulsory taxation to fund these activities – the voluntary contributions and the use fees should be enough to fund them.
Cheers,
Jason.
What an incredibly simplistic view of the world. You’d like, say the companies that import lead coated childrens toys from China to pave the roads in your town, and then set up toll booths every mile or so to recover their investment? They’d probably be Johnny on the spot to fill potholes, too.
So, tea baggers have figured out the power of organizing a large group of people around a a set of common goals. Hooray! Hopefully they will eventually realize that is what our democracy is, most of the population striving toward a set of mostly common goals.
Before you go citing the government’s reaction to the lead toys from China scare, I suggest you go and research what a disaster this has been:
https://www.forbes.com/2009/01/16/cpsia-safety-toys-oped-cx_wo_0116olson.html
The CPSIA is especially idiotic, even by the low-standards of government regulation. Among the unintended, but entirely predictable, consequences of this legislative overreaction, is that tens of thousands of small toy U.S. companies are being driven out of business, diminishing competition for corporate giants like Mattel. Nice one, Statists!
What felchers (aka anti-Tea Party nutroots like yourself) refuse to understand and acknowledge is that government is not about “most of the population striving toward a set of mostly common goals.” Government is about using the threat of violence to force people to behave in certain ways.
> Don McArthur says:
> LOL. Oh, you don’t have to educate me about the Tea Party, I live in Tennessee.
> They used to be called The Klan. Dropped the hoods, kept the goals.
Don, you’re confused. You’re thinking of the left-wing teachers’ unions, who just like the segregations of old, are today fighting to keep poor minority students in failing, segregated schools. The old segregationists did what they did out of the racial animus, the new segregationists do it to protect their perks and privileges, but the end result is the same.
Said the anarchist to the statist.
To boil it down to a sentence “Don’t get uppity with your rightful masters or they will go galt on you!”
Bring it on. If they want to move to tax havens expatriate them to the same. If they don’t want to play in the US cut them off.
You have it exactly backwards. The would-be masters are people like you who want to implement public policies that retard economic growth, and then drive out those who decide they’d rather invest their money elsewhere in response.
“Growth” which accrues only to the few at the expense of the many is evil. In case you haven’t been reading the newspapers, the Chinese government is waking up and empowering unions.
Considering pretty much the entire rest of the western world has been striking transparency and financial insight deals with traditional tax havens like the Caymans, Lichtenstein, etc for a few years now, why wouldn’t the US do the same.
Then you know what they have and what they make even if they’re offshore, and you tax them accordingly as long as they remain citizens, located in the US, and users of US public services. Of course, if they want to actually *live* in the Caymans, they should be paying their taxes there… but somehow I don’t think that Porsche is as attractive there.
I’m not sure this is really an issue. If the VCs ever want to spend any of that money on their Porsches, they have to either move out of the US and live abroad, or they have to repatriate the funds. There’s another battle going on about taxation of corporate earnings abroad, so the two regulations go together.
Or they can become full-bore tax evaders and just leave the money in illegal tax shelters overseas.
Plus a lot of government pension funds and other investors that participate in these types of VC funds would probably have serious concerns about investing with a VC group headquartered outside the US. Especially if the main purpose of headquartering overseas was to avoid taxation. After all, the government pensions know where their investment funds come from.
models and bottles baby
I’m afraid I don’t get your point.
But I’d like to make my own: Baby…bathwater.
Help! … Eyes glazing over … from the Left-Right Flame Wars. Somebody on Charlie Rose a couple of weeks ago pointed out that the Preamble to the Constitution mentions a duty of a government is to “Promote the general welfare.” Admittedly, the Feds lately are doing a laughably poor job of that, but the ultimate result of the TP philosophy would be a return to Feudalism. And there’s always WAY more serfs than Barons in such a system. Goodbye middle class. Gotta be a better way. Gotta be a Middle Way …
And re: the VC issue (the original topic!) there’s gotta be some balance point there, too. The current culture war in this country means we probably won’t end up finding it in the current legislation, unfortunately.
— the ultimate result of the TP philosophy would be a return to Feudalism.
Almost right, except for one thing: Feudalism was explicitly paternalistic. The Baron was explicitly responsible for the welfare of the serfs. What the Tea Baggers want is unfettered Social Darwinism, in the benighted belief that them uneducated good ole boys will somehow rise to the top. Rand was a nutball, and so are they.
Oddly enough, if a statistic quoted on Saturday Night Live can be taken seriously, a high percentage of Tea Buggers are college educated suburban dwellers.
Apple, Google, Cisco, Ebay. How many of large and/or successful companies have benifited from VCs. Yes there are some downsides to VCs but they have been instrumental in changing the world.
I dont have any great love for the VCs but they do benefit society vs hedge funds make the rich richer and nothing more. I say, cut them some slack.
May I suggest the following? Given that the government has taken over major portions of the “broken” automobile industry and financial institutions and now health care insurance, and that by some estimates, will control sixty percent of the American economy very soon, then maybe they should also take over Venture Capitalism, or “transform” it as some pundits might say. Wannabe entrepreneurs could then simply register with the government to receive federal subsidies and endowments and be automatically enrolled in an entrepreneurship branch of the SEIU. Even better, have workers that are joining the ranks of the unemployed automatically enrolled in this Federal Venture Capitalist program. That way there would no longer be unemployment and a growing rank of entrepreneur fledglings would appear as if by magic! VC’s could likewise mutate over into high ranking, well paid government overseers, although they may have to trade in their Porsches for Corvettes. All in all, all of this could not but be a win-win situation, given our government’s penchant for finding endless supplies of credit to generously fund such projects.
Robert Wendel, ASSIST
Need to relax while stimulating your brain cells? Then go to http://ZieWizard.com/playSudoku/SudokuWizard.html.
Ah yes, we all walk the tightropes of our minds.
However, mine isn’t the fear of a democratic government with a rule of law, and a bill of rights.
Every competing auto industry out there was born and has thrived as a result of industrial policy. In Korea it was illegal to import a car prior to 1987 – no tariffs/taxes there, eh. And in 1945 the U.S. Government asked GM and Ford not to re-establish the factories that they had in Japan prior to 1940 so as to help Japan build an indigenous industry, which it proceeded to do with a sophisticated industrial policy.
I’d ask you to shake things off and think things through, but I realize this is all about walking the tight ropes of the mind. .
We’ve strayed a bit from my original point but that’s okay. My point was that, as a literal guy, I don’t like to call a commission a capital gain. Yet as a cynic I know we tend to replace one racket with another. I’m neither opposed to success nor prosperity but I AM opposed to hypocrisy, which is what this is. So, too, I prefer modesty to arrogance and effort to privilege. Don’t you agree? If not, why not?
I agree that “carried interest” is a tax loophole, but taxes do not encourage entrepeneurship in a free market economy, hence my suggestion for a government run alternative very much in keeping with today’s administration.
Robert Wendel, ASSIST
Don’t worry, play Sudoku at http://ZieWizard.com/playSudoku/SudokuWizard.html.
Entrepreneurship, as defined by (the original) Adam Smith, is agnostic to taxation. The goal of the Entrepreneur is to make business, not make money. The money is a side effect. Kind of like being a coder: it’s a calling, not a lifestyle supporter. Remember, money is only a fiction to simplify barter. The reason we have The Great Recession is that too many folks are interested in money, per se. Money, even gold, is of little (or no) intrinsic value. Goods, and some services, have value.
The reason the Right Wingnut Capitalists always, always bray that Inflation is Coming Punish the Poor, is just so: they focus on money, not real production. If you focus on real production, you generate real value; the money number just floats around. On the other hand, if all you want to acquire is the money itself, then you become obsessed with the notion of its value. But the value of money is arbitrary, ephemeral, and pointless. Unless that’s all you focus on.
The whole VC pariah lies in just this problem: VCs care only about the money, not the real product which has real value. They are no better (perhaps much worse) than the Banksters who put us in this mess. When 40% of corporate profit is just from money changing, the true conservatives *should* be decrying the situation. They aren’t, of course, since hypocrisy is easily ignored. VCs are parasites. Whether Bob will be any better, we’ll see.
RXC, you are completely right. It is hypocrisy, but as you know, that is the source of their revenue. Management fees are covered by the 1-2% and the 20-25% carry is the profit. However, if you come at it from the private equity angle there is not much ground to stand on. Hedge funders pay only 15% and they don’t use any of their money. They should pay greater taxes, if only to rein in some of the ridiculous wealth disparity generated(?) in the past decade.
I think VC (and distressed financiers etc.) provide a much greater benefit for the economy, but they are still getting to bet with other people’s money. Unless the tax laws are somehow written to account for the underlying motivation of the profits (which is a loop-hole hell-hole) there is not much justification for letting VC’s pay less than they should. Maybe that leads to a greater question: why should they get away with paying less? Why do blue collar workers (and most white collar workers) have to pay a proportionally greater portion of their income than a VC? I think the fair tax is laughable, but maybe we could have fairer taxes, no?
The following is just my own opinion. I’m sure many will disagree with me.
Income taxes, as devised by politicians and bureaucrats, serve various purposes:
To raise revenue
to encourage certain kinds of economic behavior
to discourage certain kinds of economic behavior
to reward their friends and supporters
to punish their enemies
to create a welfare state
The question of whether these purposes are fair or serve the general welfare is meaningless. These purposes satisfy the beliefs and needs of those in charge. And that is all that matters, to those in charge.
The question of how much money should go to Venture Capital managers is also meaningless. That depends on your personal beliefs. Moreover, beliefs differ according to your economic, ethnic, political, religious, and social group.
Okay now, flame away. However, keep in mind that I am slightly abnormal and have accepted a higher purpose in life. Therefore, it is very difficult to annoy me.
I’ve always thought of venture capitalists as similar to Woody Allen’s crackpot inventor who takes peoples’ money and spends it until it’s gone.
Funny, a few years ago I had a similar discussion with a few of my state’s elected officials. At the time — how much should a community or state invest to bring in a business? It is the same problem. Here is my solution…
It is important for government to be pro-business and to help with the creation of new jobs. Through new jobs come new workers. With those new workers come new sales, income, and property taxes.
In my state about 8% of a workers gross income becomes new tax revenue. You have to be careful about how to apply this number. If the worker is making minimum wage — then the number is closer to 2%. If the worker is making minimum wage and gets no benefits — they can be a drain on state resources. So the key is to create jobs that pay a living wage, or better; and jobs that include health care benefits; and we’re talking NEW jobs — not something that will rob jobs from another part of the town or state.
Lets suppose one’s government invests $5M for new roads and utilities. If the investment creates 250 new jobs making on average $50K a year with benefits, that will generate an additional $1M in tax revenue each year. So sometime after 5 years it is money ahead for the government.
A Walmart store can conservatively make $80M each year. In our state that is a good $4.8M in sales taxes each year. However many Walmart workers do not make a living wage, they get few benefits, and Walmart’s tend to drain business from others in the community. So I can be argued a Walmart is not necessarily a good way to create new jobs.
The key to my methodology is to look at the net change in tax revenue in picking businesses to get government assistance, and realize low paying jobs and/or jobs without benefits are a detriment.
If a business with VC money creates many, good, new domestic jobs — I would discount the capital gains tax rate accordingly.
Taxes and business incentives should be structured to create domestic jobs. The more good jobs that are created, the more tax revenue will be generated from those workers. Tax policy should be developed to promote good jobs.
Some, saltwater, economists have been doing similar analyses of funding stadia and the like for sports teams. Same conclusion: just welfare for the rich.
Similarly for casinos: they only net positive if the patrons are wholly from out of jurisdiction. Otherwise, citizens will substitute the casino for other forms of entertainment, and some fraction will become destitute as the result of addiction. I spent a vacation in Bermuda a couple of years ago, and have been following their newspaper since I got back. Tourism is lagging, mostly due to The Great Recession, and the au courant solution is CASINOS. At least according to the hotel and casino folk. Bermuda is in the middle of nowhere, literally, with 65,000 residents and about 20 square miles of ground. Tourism is seasonal, not year round, and there are many far more convenient (to tourists) casinos. What’s the likelihood that casino revenue will devolve to residents in a few years?? 90%? Is that a tax?
An interesting article on the subject is at:
http://paulgraham.com/maybe.html
He explores the idea of a locality really, really wanting to become a Silicon Valley equivalent (and not a fake SV like we have here in Florida, which covers 1/3 of the state and something like 22 counties). What would it take? What would it cost? Would any city have the political will?
One answer:
http://www.fairtax.org
Get rid of income tax, get rid of income tax loop holes, get rid of income tax evasion all together.
Let all the people at the IRS look for jobs in the private sector.
Many people argued we need more taxes and that it is only fair. There was a comment about the poor rising up. Why not have a 100% tax rate and just ban all private ownership of anything of value. That way we could have the government completely control everything and ensure all people had exactly the same lifestyle. Of course everyone will still want to work only for the joy of struggling for no pay but that is the ultimate goal right?
It sucks to be poor. I lived off food stamps at one time. But it is wrong and self defeating to punish the rich for being successful. Everyone gets a shot at success and happiness. There is no guarantee. Europe has a 70% tax rate because they provide a lot of benefits rather than grow to their tax rate we need less benefits.
VC may make a huge fortune, but they can also loose it. We should not penalize success. For those who feel that wealth distrabution is unfair give YOUR money away not mine. That is a moral choice and I do not want the government to be in the morality or religion business. I know at least 3 families that get paid by the government every year, thier taxes are around negative $5,000 a year. Yet they all have cell phone plans that cost over $100 a month.
It is not morally superior to be rich or to be poor. Nobody deserves to pay more just because they can. Not everyone can have everything they want. Those are just the facts of life. We should (morally) try to help lift people up not try to bring people down out of spite that they have succeeded.
Great article on how taxes affect economics. Of course, this article is targeted towards an American audience.
Bob, here’s a tip, you should spend some time researching the oil and gas sector and how we diversify the risk of investing in wells.
Royalties affect us more in Calgary.
In Australia, capital gains are taxed just like any other income. There’s no difference between the tax rate a VC fund would pay on carried interest and the tax they would pay if it were a “commission”. The tax office wouldn’t really care what you declared it as. No special legislation or ruling is required.
Interestingly, one of Australia’s closest neighbours (Vanuatu) implements a regime very close to FairTax as discused above. A large number of people groups on various islands speak languages with no number system, and most of the population is outside the cash economy, so many traditional tax systems cannot be implemented. The only taxes they have are import duties and a value-add tax (at 12.5%) on sales.
This is the intentional destruction of Western economies by upper echelon bankers who have the executive, congressional and judicial branches of our governments by the marbles (and have for many many decades now, perhaps even centuries) – Plain and Simple.
Forget congress, they have been owned by the same people who engineered this financial crisis to begin with – Everything has been done to bankrupt the middle class of our respective countries … As the saying goes ‘Bankrupt Main street to feed Wall Street’.
In absolute laymans terms, they want the rich to stay rich and the poor to stay poor. And they want more poor people and less rich people. Look at the tax breaks corporations get. Come on. You’re going to start gouging the little guy?
Little guys striving for success and achievement is what made America so great to begin with. This isn’t just a gouging or “greed” for tax dollars , this is an assault and it’s one of many very troubling things going down in this arena.
We are living in very interesting times – We don’t live in a “Democracy” , this is Fascism. Textbook definition.
I am not sure why bing sent me to your blog but I might as well say I have been overall interested by the comments you have sourced together. How many month did it take to begin to get so many hitting to your pages? I am new to this blog thing.
The question of capital gain vs commission is irrelevent. Either way, the money doesn’t belong to the government. It’s preposterous to assume that if the government wasn’t spending the money, it wouldn’t get spent. It’s also terribly naeve to assume that the government is spending it more effectively than the people would, if they had a chance. The government does have a legitimate role in protecting the rights of the people through law enforcement and national defense, but anything over and above that is waste.
The problem with the venture capital industry is that there isn’t enough competition. That’s why these guys all have Porches. A 20% share of the capital gain is an absurdly high price to pay for investment expertise. Investors, entrepreneurs, and consumers would all benefit immensely if the government removed all barriers to entry into the venture capital industry. That means we need less red tape, not more.
https://www.aei.org/outlook/100963
While the tax treatment of carried interest paid to fund managers may seem unusual, it actually follows from partnership tax principles that apply to industries throughout the economy. Internal Revenue Code (IRC) section 702(b) sets forth the general rule that partners are taxed on partnership income in the same manner “as if such item were realized directly from the source from which realized by the partnership.” If a furniture store partnership, for example, realizes long-term capital gains or dividends, the partners who receive that income are taxed at the 20 percent rate.
Some critics are troubled by the fact that the carried-interest arrangement allocates part of the fund’s capital gains and dividends to the managers when such income “belongs” to the investors who put up the money. It is not clear, of course, why the gains and dividends do not belong to the managers, whose labor helped produce this income. In any case, IRC section 704(a), a rule that also applies throughout the economy, permits the partnership agreement to allocate different items of partnership income and expense in any desired manner.[9] If the furniture store partnership has two partners, one of whom works and the other of whom puts up the money, the partnership agreement may allocate any capital gains and dividends received by the store to the working partner, who would then be taxed at the 20 percent rate on that income.
The VC’s don’t get 20% of the everything. They only get 20% of the ventures that produce a gain.
For example, if 1 in 5 ventures of equal size succeeds and the other 4 fail completely, the VC’s get less than 4% of the investment. (I’m figuring the investment for successful VCs produces a net return of no less than 10% a year. Otherwise, they will be out of work pretty quick.)
The other advantage is they don’t lose money if all 5 fail but they do lose the time they spent.
Another disadvantage is that the 4% isn’t a yearly number but is computed over the full term of the investment–probably more than a year.
Someone was arguing about how the economy is imbalanced between supply and demand and what we need is more demand. To apply this argument back to the question at hand, taxation on income takes money out of the hands of consumers and therefore reduces demand. IIRC, most credible economists believe that consumption taxes are much better for an economy.
As for all the hate directed towards VCs, there is no appreciation for the risk they are taking in investing in early stage companies. Yet ultimately, that is where the growth in the economy will happen. Isn’t it better that there are private sector entrepreneurs putting their dollars on the line than the gov’t sucking up all the available liquidity to bail out GM?
DD
cheap VPS
Good points thanks!
…
Okay article. I simply discovered your blog and wished to say I’ve genuinely liked reading through your thoughts. By any means I’ll be subscribing on your feed and I truly hope you submit again quickly….
Of course, what a great site and informative posts, I will add backlink – bookmark this site? Regards, Reader.
Very insightful post, will have to tell my friends to come visit and reap this gem of knowledge
Good to find out you back. And again by having an interesting posting.
Electronic cigarette also be sure as tense cigarette and smokeless cigarette does not hold back sundry perilous chemicals that are found.
Really? I disagree. And most venture capitalists would probably agree with me, if it wasn’t their money being debated at the moment. Taxation pays for state and federal research (read: SPENDING) which creates the nurseries from which the venture capitalists help grow the seeds of future industry. Lowered spending is not the issue. Smarter spending is. Starting with funds for an FCC with some balls so people such as yourself are not brainwashed by Fox/WSJ to believe that the problems are where they are not.
well done
We appreciate you the recommendation! I am going to try it out.
Great information! I’ve been looking for something like this for a while now. Thanks!
Get information thanks for sharing, about time some one took time in what they typed on on the Internet, will bookmark and show some buddies of mine as they will be enjoy reading this!
Thanks for the cool information, I really love to spend time here going through these posts
Great article! I like your blog! I bookmarked itThanks for the cool information, I really love to spend time here going through these posts
would love to drop a line of text and say thanks a lotfor this and please keep up the awesome work.
I expect this article will provide me with fresh insight as we go about the most importantpart.
I am always invstigating online for articles that can benefit me. Thx!
Your blog site is probably the finest that I’ve witnessed. Maintain up the wonderful writing.
Whitening brushhead admin. In the meantime, you are in the same way your blog is very goods I , I want to use. Though not yours, make it similar to the feds. Whitening brushhead.
Whitening brushhead admin. In the meantime, you are in the same way your blog is very goods I , I want to use. Though not yours, make it similar to the feds. Whitening brushhead.
Whitening brushhead admin. In the meantime, you are in the same way your blog is very goods I , I want to use. Though not yours, make it similar to the feds. Whitening brushhead.
Greetings from Hungarian from Ana 🙂
interesting writeup, i’ve got to mention this to a friend of mine
interesting writeup, i’ve got to mention this to a friend of mine
In the united kingdom, studies demonstrate that about 70% from the woman human population do not use the beats by dr dre headphones and rather straps on ill-fitting, not comfortable ones.
Its like you read my mind! You appear to know so much about this, like you wrote the book in it or something. I think that you can do with a few pics to drive the message home a little bit, but other than that, this is fantastic blog. A fantastic read. I will certainly be back.
F*ckin’ amazing things here. I’m very glad to see your post. Thanks a lot and i’m looking forward to contact you. Will you kindly drop me a e-mail?
Great article! I loved the knowledge and the information given . Additionally, your writing style is very fun to read. If you have enough time kindly make sure you visit my brand new website and tell me what you think.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, but good topic. I needs to spend some time learning much more or understanding more. Thanks for fantastic information I was looking for this information for my mission.