A friend for many years who happens to be chief financial officer for a Silicon Valley startup has this story to tell about his immigration problems at work:
This is the immigration battle that I fight day-in and day-out. How do we attract the best and brightest to our shores (H1-B visas) so the jobs stay in America instead of transferring overseas? The technologists that we work with could work anywhere. We have to make it easy for them to come here and to contribute here and to have bright babies here and to have those babies set higher standards here. I see very, very few Smiths or Joneses or Johnsons who contribute at the very top of the math and science that is required to succeed in Silicon Valley. Right now I’m trying to get a Korean and a Chinese and three Spaniards to come to work for us. The Spaniards will only work in Spain, so we’ll establish a subsidiary there. It meets our goals, but America just lost three jobs. We’re hiring about 50 people this year – mostly PH.D.’s in electrical engineering with a deep understanding of algorithmic mathematics and modeling. The best candidates are either overseas or are foreign students at U.S. universities. We aren’t looking for cheap overseas labor. We’re looking for people who can do the job. The salaries at entry level are over $100K per year whether they work here or overseas.
That’s the argument for H1-B expansion in a nutshell and it is hard to dispute — unless, of course, you are an engineer who has been hurt by immigration policies applied in ways their writers perhaps did not intend. I have a friend in just that position, so I ran past him the paragraph above. His response:
When I was wrapping up my BS engineering degree in 1979, the head of my department asked me to consider going to grad school. The reason — the fall 1979 master’s program had no male USA citizens enrolled. This was at PURDUE — the largest engineering program in the country.
So this problem has been around for 30 years.
At the time most engineers left college with BS degrees. They could advance themselves faster financially going to work immediately. If they wanted to continue their education, most companies would pay for it. Most engineers at the time developed their expertise quite fast — and often surpassed what one would learn in graduate school. (I probably could have earned a PhD for my simulation work).
In 1981 IBM introduced the PC. By 1984, five years after my graduation, the engineering profession was turned on its ear. Accountants doing what-if analysis found the company could be more profitable if all R&D was stopped. By 1989, 10 years after my graduation my entire profession (Industrial Engineering) was wiped out. Over 90 percent of the jobs were gone. Around then I moved to IT.
In the 1990’s there was a mass exodus of U.S. manufacturing jobs. When the factories were moved offshore, so was the need for engineers. I’d be willing to bet over two-thirds of the engineering positions in the USA have been eliminated in the past 30 years.
Of all my college friends, only one is still working as an Engineer. He works for NASA.
With a lot fewer jobs in engineering, college students weren’t stupid — then went to IT and other fields. IT provided a lot of opportunity until the early 2000’s when the flood of H1-B’s hit. U.S. workers were run out by people willing to take less pay and no benefits. Students know R&D and manufacturing jobs have been moved off shore. They think long and hard about going into engineering. They know their jobs are as vulnerable as IT jobs.
With a job situation like this — is it any surprise our most gifted students are not studying math, science, or engineering?
My third kid is going to college next fall, to study engineering. He has visited several schools. When I went to college there were 3-4 jobs per graduate. Today there is less than one job per graduate! With the recent economic downturn a lot of kids could not find work and are presently working on their MS degrees. We talked to the schools, we met the students. The schools are honest and provide the facts.
I’d love to go back to engineering. One of the things I used to do is simulate control systems. I would analyze the behavior of both the system and the system that controls it. Do you think this talent would be of value to Toyota right now?
In my current job I help with outsourcings. Every once in a while I get to see a spreadsheet of a customer’s IT department. Age discrimination — you better believe there is discrimination. In corporate America there is most definitely a program to get rid of their technical talent when they hit their 40’s. Look at any company’s hiring statistics — they will hire folks from age 21-35. Over 45 the hiring rate is zero. In this country companies are required to provide equal employment opportunities on race and gender. They make sure they hire according to the population demographics. Age is a different thing. If the average age of the USA population is increasing, why isn’t the average age of new employment increasing? When you hit 50, why is it next to impossible to get a good job?
The USA, both in business and in government regulations have wiped out the market of science and technology jobs for USA citizens. The reason there is no talent is because the situation has steered those students to other careers.
Point and counter-point. But we’re not done. Here’s my buddy the CFO:
My experience with H1-B is that you have to prove that: (1) you’ve searched for qualified Americans in and out of your company but have been unable to fill the slot (there are many, many cross-checks to assure that is true), and; (2) that you’re paying the immigrant at market rates for like experience and education. If (a company) isn’t doing that, they have some officer who is personally in perjury with the application process. I’ve administered the process for some 30 years and when I sign the H1-B affidavits, I know that the above two points are true. I’ve never hired somebody through the H1-B process in order to lower wage costs.
I think that your friend has some very valid points. “Engineering,” of course, isn’t one amorphous profession. The industrial engineers did dissipate. IT became a new field. Software became an even newer field based much more on math and less on physics than previous categories. All engineers in all fields needed to be taught (but most were not) that the half-life of their education was – maybe – 10 years, often five. Those who understood that went into marketing (if they had half a personality) or management (if they could supervise people and processes) or even into journalism (?). The “half-life” thing is still alive for all engineers, whether domestic or foreign. I’m not sure what each individual is supposed to do when he becomes obsolete.
So it is change or die. Forget about doing the same job for 40 years then getting a pension. Heck, forget about the pension.
Here we have two completely different views of education, professional development, and the role of immigrants in business today. Both are correct. Engineering is in a transition that will put many out to pasture. Our incentives to study engineering have declined dramatically leaving mainly foreigners in our best engineering programs. H1-B — when used as it was intended — is a good program that probably should be expanded as industry requests. Except that not all companies are as scrupulous in their attention to regulations as is my friend the CFO.
The H1-B program can be a tool or a weapon depending on whether you are being employed or replaced by it. Wholesale replacement of American workers was never in the intentions of those who created H1-B, but then some weasels in HR figured-out how to game the system and so here we are.
This is a complex problem that can’t be handled with a single policy change, but I can suggest a place to start. Most tech companies want unlimited H1-B visas. I say give it to them in the form of a new law that mandates third-party compliance audits, hefty fines (with a piece of that fine going to the auditor), and jail time for those found to be skirting or abusing the law.
I’m not sure I trust a CFO to discuss the half life of engineering degrees. I mean really, all engineers are obsolete 10 years after graduation? They don’t learn anything while they’re working?
I’m not an engineer, anybody in the field care to comment?
I do like Bob’s idea about new H1B rules, except for the fact that our country’s record on prosecuting corporate crime is abysmal.
I don’t think that’s what the “Half-Life of education” means.
It means that every five years, about half of what you learned is obsolete. Wait another five, and half again is inconsequential. Which leaves you with only 25% still being of pertinent value.
So it’s a call to continue learning — and to stop thinking of these jobs as cushy careers.
But what do I know of half-lifes and stuff… My degree was in broadcast journalism, with a minor in political theory.
Well put and I think you’re right, but the last line of the CFO’s bit does imply that engineers become obsolete quickly, not just their college education. Hence my confusion. But I’m a broadcast journalism grad too, so confusion is nothing new for me!
Even those who are “go to guys”, who are continually learning and even teaching others and presenting papers out along the cutting edge, are being dumped in their mid-30s. The people who do get dumped and go take a few semesters on hot new topics aren’t seriously considered, either. (This was documented and reported on since the late 1990s, e.g. 1998-06-16, 2001-12-16, 2003-02-10, 2003-05-25, 2003-12-03, 2004-01-26, even the US Commerce Department admitted it.)
This isn’t about people who stuck their heads in the sand and woke up clueless 30 years later. This is about employers leveraging a fraudulent scheme to stop investing in their employees, and to stop investing in serious recruiting and new-hire training… and pocket the difference for themselves (not to pass on to the stock-owners).
The CFO is rationalizing his company’s desire to hire the cheapest people who can accomplish the task. In engineering, those are often H1B candidates. I don’t blame him for his goals, but I do blame him for perpetuating a myth — that older US citizens/engineers are unable to compete with H1B candidates on a cost-value basis. The idea that we somehow lose 50% of our applicable knowledge every 5-10 years out of school is absurd on so many levels …
Well, when you consider that there are people willing to do the job for less, then your value (from a market perspective, not from a human validation perspective) has indeed dropped.
I really don’t know what the engineers are complaining about.
Every year, there are as many kids graduating with degrees in broadcast news as there are jobs in the industry.
My first offer as an on-air reporter was in 1992 for $13,000. And I would have to drive my own car.
I didn’t get to accept, because the news director called back two hours later to inform me that the General Manager mis-spoke – the existing reporters were getting bumped up to $13K, I would have to start at $12.5. AND drive my own vehicle to stories.
Starting salaries aren’t much better today, hovering in the $14-20K range.
Don’t let the big anchor salaries fool you – you literally have to wait for someone to DIE before you can move up to that level. The field reporters don’t make very much at all, which is astounding considering the quality of wardrobe they are expected to maintain.
And if you’re REALLY good – they won’t let you move up to the anchor desk at all, even to fill in (which you need for your resume tape.) “Sorry, you’re just too good out in the field, we can’t afford to lose you out there…”
Ike – sounds like sour grapes. “I have it hard, so should you.”
Most US engineers will compete with anyone, but the cost of living in the US is higher, and thus they can’t compete on cost.
Sorry you had to drive your own car around. My god, that just sounds awful. I mean, I thought starving children in Africa had it bad, but poor Ike.
Becky, you have it ass-backwards.
I hear the engineers whining and complaining, and they have no clue what market pressures (or compensation) was like in other sectors.
I am happy. I was happy when I was in news, and I’ve been happy since leaving.
And you know what..? I do feel sorry for people who are expected to drive their own vehicles up to 200 miles each day, and carry their own insurance for $13K in salary.
At least the people delivering pizzas are allowed to accept tips.
There is one easy solution (which will show its all about cheap labor) – REMOVE COMPANY SPONSORSHIP. Allow H1-Bs to not be tied to a single sponsoring company. This will allow companies that need this “talent” to pay more and attract the top talent.
Right now, they are tied to the same company waiting on their Greencard to be processed.
Conversely, allow unlimited H1-Bs, but charge a sliding scale (eg – the first H1-B costs $1000, the second $2000, the 30,000 costs $30,000). It would be very easy to see how much extra a company would be willing to pay for this top talent from overseas.
great ideas. i work with friends on H1-Bs and they are just stuck with the company whether they are in a good position or not. they have lost all negotiating power.
That would barely make a dent in one side of the abuse. Even if we cut the numbers of visas by three-fourths, and made them more easily transferable from one job to another, they’d still be destroying the US STEM job markets.
I am an engineer and, yes, there is something to the half-life thing. However, I would suggest to Mr. CFO that maybe he has some responsibility to his employees to ensure that they are being continually educated? If he needs his engineers to have some specialized knowledge then maybe he can help pay for the engineer to get that knowledge?
Now of course, it’s also the engineer’s responsibility to stay current, but I would think that perhaps it could also be a partnership between the engineer and the employer. Most engineers I know do spend a lot of energy keeping their skillset up to date. That means you’re working a 50 hour work week and you’re reading books on various tech on the side. If you’re a software engineer you’re learning new languages whenever you get some time. It’s not an easy task.
Back to the half-life thing: there is some knowledge that “decays” with time. Technologies that were in vogue 10 years ago may or may not be now. However, certain underlying knowledge is transferrable. For example, with computer languages: C++ was king 10 or so years ago for many things. Now not as much (don’t get me wrong, it hasn’t and won’t disappear, but the percentage of jobs the require it are much lower now). But it’s pretty easy for someone who knows the concepts of C++ to move on to C# or Java because the underlying concepts are essentially the same. Then there’s the “Algorithmic mathematics and modeling” mentioned by Mr. CFO. That stuff doesn’t change much at all.
The former engineer that Cringely quotes is spot on: Why would anyone go through the hassle of getting an engineering degree (some of the most difficult degree programs out there) only to face outsourcing and competition with H1-B’s? Fortunately, some young people are just meant to be engineers: they have the curiosity and the passion about the tech. So they will do it. But how do we encourage more to get into engineering and how do we encourage more US born students to go for graduate degrees? I would suggest that we need a massive cultural shift in the US at this point to make that happen: it’s been too easy to take the easy way out and go for an easier degree and still make good money… Think about it: until about 2 years ago, someone could get six months of training after Highschool to be a Realtor and pull down more salary than an engineer. Same for mortgage brokers, etc. Now of course the economy has changed that and maybe we’ll see engineering become more appealing to young people again. We certainly need for this to happen if we’re going to have any hope of this country surviving economically: we need to start making things again and innovating.
Oh, and I really resent Mr. CFO’s comment about engineers with “half a personality” going into marketing. Way to perpetuate the stereotype that keeps young people from getting into engineering. I’m in my mid-40s and still and engineer…. I will not go quietly into the dark side.
Well, it is one thing to have an intellectual tool-kit of algorithms, and it’s another to be able to write up a mathematical proof that a particular algorithm will take at least, at most, and most likely a certain amount of storage and time. For the vast majority of cases, the tool-kit programmer will serve well. For maybe 1% you need the mathematician who knows about practice and theory of analysis of algorithms.
The early January job ad report from dice says that there were a total of 48,751 job ads — 9,647 ads for C/C++ programmers, 9,796 for Java/J2EE, but gives no numbers for Ruby, PHP, Perl, Python, Objective-C, Tutor, Algol, Fortran, APL, SNOBOL, BASIC, Lisp, SmallTalk, Pascal, Ada, AppleScript, Simscript, POWERpc assembly language, COMPASS, 68K assembly language, 6502 assembly language… nor any of the popular frameworks. They reported 23,590 ads for body shopping gigs, 28,142 full-time temp, and 1,074 part-time temp, but 0 full-time long-term/permanent job ads.
Engineered Himself out of a Job
So it’s pretty much a natural conclusion. If engineers (lower case e) focus on creating automated processes, those processes will eventually lead to the place where even the engineer is no longer needed. It’s an IT phenomenon also, the only thing is that there is enormous market pressure from system vendors to buy their next new system, oh, and your applications won’t work the same.
IBM’s AS400 and System 370 derivatives (i & z Series) let you run 40 year old programs. For that reason alone, I believe that is why they are loosing market share. It’s really besides the point that desktop computers are approaching the same capacity as both of these, or exactly the point, because the desktop computers have all the latest features users what when performing their computing tasks.
Engineers (upper case E) probably won’t ever suffer this situation, until engineers build something that can reproduce the brain-sweat for new-one off applications of Physics. Every major construction project, civil, automotive, aerospace, or electrical requires innovative thought. If there’s no need for innovative thought there’s no need for an Engineer.
Thing is that it’s pretty easy to make a really good living being an engineer. As an engineer, you can be chummy with the marketing and management guys and eat cheeze dip at football parties, and know the name of every player on both teams. You might even have a 5 point handicap, and enjoy softball. You don’t have to be all wrapped up in your “science” like those Engineers. Besides, there’s like 5 jobs for Engineers in the US, why not just engineer.
That’s a little tongue in cheek, but it follows on with all those kids who I went to high school who wanted to be doctors or lawyers because you’d be “rich.” Not every body has to be the #1 neural surgeon in the world, when you can have your PA pop zits and still bring home more than 200K per year, and be a member of the Small Businessman’s Association. It takes a special person to fit that very tiny niche, no matter what specialty.
Does anyone know what the hell Matt is talking about?
Sorry Warren,
I lost my point a little bit I suppose. Maybe I had 2.
Point 1) Engineers will always be needed as long as there are new problems. This kind of engineer is the kind that goes to jail if a bridge, building, dam, or plane falls down. This type of engineer requires specialized training in the Universal Laws (Math/Physics) so that brand new solutions can be found. Without new problems these capitol “E” engineers aren’t needed.
Point 2) Some engineers aren’t. They just do some slightly more thought intensive work that other workers are too busy to do for themselves. This type of work is sometimes very repetitive, and eventually a service provider may be found that can offer a solution without having to have on staff engineers. IT, manufacturing, what ever. Everyone could change their own oil or build a house, they just don’t, because the guys who specialize in these things can do it faster and cheaper. So, this type of engineering is only needed as long as non-engineer types can’t do it for themselves, and haven’t found someone who does it cheaper.
I’m an engineer (lower case). I’m not saying that engineers aren’t very intelligent people. There’s just multiple levels to a pseudonymous job title. Not everyone has to be a 5 star neural surgeon.
An Engineer is a licensed Professional Engineer. We seal documents and get sued and can go to jail if our products fail. Engineering with a capital E isn’t really sexy. We build roads, sewers, buildings, bridges, cars- the physical stuff of life. There are H1B visas for these positions, but not many.
The half life comment is a good joke. Maybe he’s correct for “software engineers.” But in my profession of Engineering, a good Engineer actually gets paid more as he amasses experience. An Engineer must be constantly be aware of changing laws, regulations, codes, and customer needs. Schools don’t teach that. Experience does.
Thanks Jon, that was exactly my point. And to that, there are plenty of people with engineering degrees (myself included) who don’t have the responsibility or legal liabilities that some one like you may have.
It’s really a different situation. I was educated as a “Computer Engineer,” which means I was trained as an Electrical Engineer and got enough Computer Science to learn the tricks of the trade. But in all reality, my education helps with the execution of my craft, but the day to day knowledge that I need to use is completely based on what’s trendy (C# this year, Java a few years back, c++ before that, SQL -> NoSQL, blah blah blah). Trendy = short half life.
It’s an assumption on my part but building bridges, placing sewers that don’t backup, or even finding new data compression routines has little to do with what’s trendy. Not Trendy = long half life.
NSF said about 10 years ago that about 20% of people doing engineering work and referred to their employers and customers as engineers do not have degrees in engineering. The figure for computer programmers was about 44%.
Autodidacts rule!
Jail time? Auditing? Who are you kidding, Bob?
Companies need simple rules. Here is one- you can hire anyone you like over $100K, foreign or domestic. Below that, no special visas or other immigration help.
Great point. If they’re really the “diamond in the rough”, they should be costing that much.
If Cisco or HP or Lucent wants to hire Tarbash & Wing Lu & Yuri for $100K each, I guess they’re worth it.
I just resent it when they hire Prabhu and Cheng for $20K and say they couldn’t find an American for the job. Yeah, NOT AT THAT PAY, they couldn’t….
Another point about this: when they hire someone from overseas via H-1B, not only are they paying them less (I don’t know anything about the perjury claim, but every case I had any knowledge of, the H-1B person was making way below market rates), but there is no upward pressure on salaries once people are on H-1B visas. It’s literally only a half-step removed from indentured servitude.
Why? Let’s say that I’m getting paid well below market rates. I come in, do a fantastic job, and also find out that I’m being paid below market. My annual review comes up, and I bring up the market rate issue. If they aren’t desperate to keep me, they can just say, “You’re fired,” and I need to leave the country immediately.
Let me repeat that: I can (and likely will) be deported IMMEDIATELY. They tell ICE (or whoever runs the program) that I’m no longer employed, and I’m now persona non grata. I’m gone.
So how much leverage do I have in negotiations? Unless I really am in the top percent of a percent (and the company recognizes that), I have nada.
To your point, many managers would rather employ an H1B recipient than a comparably priced and comparably talented US citizen, because they have more control over the H1B employee. If we removed the control issue, companies might be less interested in the H1Bs. Maybe if we removed the sponsorship aspect of an H1B.
How about this — if you wanted to hire a non-citizen, you need to pay the government some amount of money and sponsor that employee as a citizen. You get the guy for a couple of years, then he/she is a full citizen and a free agent.
Just brainstorming here, but it could be that some of the unintentional negatives of our H1B visa system (ie it makes the visa holder a more controllable and therefore more attractive employee than a regular citizen) would be solved by a better immigration policy.
You could solve this problem by creating economic incentives. If a company wants to employ a foreigner, they have to pay a fee for that right – say $10,000. This gives the employee 4 years right to work in the country.
However, and here’s the catch, that employee can then leave the company and work for someone else if they wish, or even be unemployed (with no benefits). This provides an incentive for the company to treat the employee well. And it also tests the excuse they can’t find anyone local, by placing a financial risk on bringing in a foreigner.
Of course, you’d have to make sure this couldn’t be used as a back door entry to immigration. This is easily solved by making obviously fake applications purely for the purposes of immigration a criminal offence.
A better free market incentive would be to auction off 150 or so visas each month to the highest bidders. The bids would have to cover the costs of processing the visa application, running the background investigation on the applicant, and the annual compensation for the job (not just salary or wage, but total compensation). Whoever wins the auction plops down the governments costs, plus a percentage of that total compensation as a bond which they can recoup from their taxes on a quarterly basis, and everyone except the corrupt executive walks away happy.
Meanwhile, if you fly in a US citizen for an interview, you should get tax breaks that cancel the costs for the travel to the airport, the parking, the plane, the rental car, a meal or two (with a barely above Mickey D limit). Then, if they make an offer and relocate a US citizen, they get a break on those expenses. And if they do new-hire education or training of a US citizen, or send their retained US citizen employee to the university or a training course across the country, they get breaks for that, too. If they’re interviewing a student or green card holder or anyone else from outside the USA, no tax break.
Then, since they’re supposed to be “best and brightest”, super-stars with knowledge and abilities unavailable in the USA, let’s hold the executives like your CFO friend to that claim. To begin to qualify for OPT or an E-3 or H-1B or L or even J visa (since they all have a history of abuse), each applicant has to show that he has an IQ (Wechsler) and academic achievement in the top percentile on at least 2 standardized tests (SAT, ACT, GRE, MCAT, PCAT, LSAT…). (For an O visa, you should have to be much better than that.)
This is a huge point. These guys are owned on a number of levels. Not only hired ahead of more expensive locals, but then they have less leverage to get raises. And beyond that, there’s a quality of life thing that I’ve seen with them.
Frequently the H1B1 hires are single guys who come here to make some of money. They’re by definition “from out of town”, and at least at first they don’t tend to have family with them. What has tended to happen at a couple places I’ve worked is that when you need on-call guys or someone to stay late or work weekends they get a disproportionate number of these gigs, even beyond the “you have kids so just take off” factor. It’s wrong, but it’s happened more than once.
Mod parent up. This is an excellent point and practical… unfortunately, that is why it would never become law. There are too many hands stirring the pot.
The current H1-B rules and regulations are not enforced. There’s no political will for enforcement, and no money for policing. Any new law allowing unlimited H1-B visas would also not have its compliance regulations enforced, so I don’t think it would be a good idea.
Both of the CFO’s qualifications in the last quote are easily met. It’s easy to write a job description that no US citizen qualifies for, publish it to Monster.com or Computerworld, thereby proving there are no qualified US applicants; and you tell me what the ‘market rate’ for a software engineer is ? Between $50k and $130k, according to the BLS.
http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm#earnings
So, $50k sounds good as a starting salary for a h1-b software engineer. Honest employers may not do this, of course, but we’re relying on their honor.
These abuses have been going on at least since the 1990s when I had first-hand experience. See for example from 1999,
https://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=hightech_migrant_labor
A better solution is to grant H1-Bs free agent status in the labor market. This could easily be done by unlinking the H1-B from the employer, granting it to the applicant instead. Companies like those of your friend the CFO would not be affected, but the body shops would go out of business.
Companies easily get around auditing. They just employ “Contract Labor” and push the Visa-checking to the contracting agency.
I would love to see the statistics. I have been told that most of the H-1B petitions that have been requested are by US “Contracting” companies that are foreign-owned or by recently-immigrated owners. They usually have a presence both in the US and abroad. These are just middle men to insulate US companies. I am sure we have all seen this.
True product-producing high-tech companies can claim they are following all of the rules.
Auditing needs to focus on Contracting Agencies.
Echoing one of the replies above, a great many of the H-1B visas are snapped up by Indian contracting agencies who pimp out their workers elsewhere, taking a nice cut from the employer and paying the contractors less than fair market rates. While I’m an actual bona-fide US Citizen, I’ve worked for a couple of these companies in the past few years, probably because the H-1B quotas were exhausted and they needed to fill a slot at one of their major clients.
The H-1B’s need to be revamped to eliminate the eligibility of these middle men, that may stop a lot of the abuses and open up the quotas for legitimate purposes.
Bob, you do a great job and I love your insights. Thank you for them. However, mentioning your PhD work, no matter accurate the statement, does nothing to advance your arguements.
Dom, I think you mis-attribute the PhD. Bob wrote: “I have a friend in just that position, so I ran past him the paragraph above. His response:” (contained mentioning his (Bob’s friend’s) PhD.
Epic Fail, Dom.
No H1B fraud going on?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
The CFO is the exception — I believe that most of the time, H1Bs are hired not because of a lack of domestic talent, but because “cheap labor” is being imported.
I will compete with anyone based on skills. But I can’t compete with a 3rd-world cost of living. I need a certain amount of money to have a normal lifestyle here. In Bangalore, a lot less goes a lot further. So a candidate might be 1/3 as good as me, but cost 1/10 as much.
My strategy has been to strive to be the best I can, and compete purely on value. But as I age, I know discrimination will kick in — I’ve already started to see it.
Well I’m an engineer (Masters Degree), not working in my field, but working in IT, turning 50 and probably mildly asperger, and thus so with no interest in either marketing or management. The 5 year half life sound plausible to me, as ball parks go . . .
But even without offshoring, as the quip goes “we don’t have a monopoly on all the smart people”. Perhaps we should look at the modernization of the world (population 6B – or the other 95% of humanity living outside the USA , population 300M ) as an opportunity instead of a curse. After all, if science progressed more in the last 100 years that it did in all of human history before, how far will it go in the next 25 ?
Answer: not much if at all.
Some knowledge has accumulated, and lots of theoretical modeling. String theory anyone ?
Real science has not advanced much since 1950s and theoretically, as in models, since Einstein.
Why did science only begin and run in the cultural West ?
That may give you an answer.
I get a little bothered when I hear managers complain that there aren’t any qualified American applicants for jobs, which is why they have to look overseas. What I am really hearing is that “there are no Americans with specific skills that will require zero training”.
When I tried to leave the academic world for a more traditional private engineering job, it wasn’t interesting to HR or the manager that I had a PhD in a physical science, had written my own spectral fluid model, that I did my own numerical analysis with my own scripts, or had done cutting-edge research in wave dynamics. All that mattered was that I had no formal Engineering degree, no experience in using Fluent (or whatever software or bag of tricks the job asked for), and was therefore not worth their time or consideration. So I went back to academics.
My gut reaction to this was that firms are not interested (or cannot afford) to train anyone. A friend of mine in a consulting company says that this is true: companies almost refuse to pay for training because the employee is almost guaranteed to leave. So you either hire for the job or hire a consulting firm to do the job for you.
I’d still like to leave academics for a good private position, but I still see companies looking for specific skills, not diverse trainable people. I can sympathise with their position. It is faster to hire overseas than to take a local that requires a bit of training. But I think they misrepresent the argument when they say that there is no one available. Rather, there is no one available that requires zero training.
This is just my perception from the sidelines though, so if this characterisation is unfair then please step in to correct me.
What I am really hearing is that “there are no Americans with specific skills that will require zero training”
I would add “and will work for cheap”. There’s little mention of the H1B fraud going on in the contracting businesses. Of course the CFO doesn’t have to defend lower H1B salaries…they are just paying lower rates to a body shop.
With all the patriot act stuff now, the time to get permanent residency has drastically increased. We’ve created a second class of technical workers – they work for less (for longer) because they can’t leave their sponsoring company.
Ah, it’s all starting to come together. What I am really hearing is that “there are no hyper-credentialed Americans with hyper-specific skills (down to brand-name and sub-sub version), who will require zero training, will work for 60-90 hours per week but only be paid for 40 hours and even that at below-market rates, have flexible or no professional ethics, and will cheerily reply ‘yes’ to every demand (whether or not they actually understand it, are able or will even attempt to carry through on fulfilling it), and will happily suffer being ejected after 30 days or 25 years at my whim with no pension or severance pay or unemployment insurance benefits or out-placement assistance”.
Wow, what a cogent description of my worklife!
Most of the time, the H1-B’s don’t have the skills either (resume fraud is rampant!), but firms are willing to overlook that because of the indentured cheap labour aspect of their candidacy.
Don’t shoot me for this but I think our salaries (and lifestyle) can only go down, down, down. Regardless of immigration policy there’s increasingly a world full of highly educated kids who will work for far less than us. That is the bottom line. Be it here on an H1-B (I’m in Canada actually where we just give permanant residence to anyone with a pulse) or in some other country as an offshore worker doing what used to be your job in America. I recently spent some time in Korea and their work ethic is downright scary. I’d be going out to have a drink with friends at 10pm and the subway is full of guys in suits carrying briefcases just on their way home from work.
Of course, without out Army stationed on the border with North Korea, those worker bees would not have a job.
I dunno about work ethic. It’s 12:47 am here and I just got finished working on a data project that I have been on since this morning. I’m used to working long hours.
I do get the point about how we in the west will have to lower our salary expectations. A global economy means a global average for pay, and we are on the large end of the scale. But this problem cannot be legislated away. It must be weathered.
What we really need to do is find ways to stay out of debt, and to keep our housing, transportation, and healthcare costs as low as possible, and no longer hope that businesses or governments will or can provide benefits or pay increases to help us service our debt and keep our current lifestyle. Like Dave Ramsey would say, we all need to live like no one else so we later can live like no one else.
If you aren’t servicing a huge mortgage (in fact, just completely own a small house instead), and making large payments for cars or credit cards, suddenly you will find that not getting a raise while prices for most other things remain stable or drop, makes for a good living, even if you aren’t an Engineer making $100k a year anymore. You may find that you can erase your debt, save a large portion of your pay, and be in a good position to live through this huge, global transition.
How do I know? I’m doing it now. And I’m just following the advice of others. No more mortgage, complete equity in the small house, and this year I will retire about $18,000 in debt, adding about $1,300 a month in net cashflow due to not having big bills to pay. That cashflow will be spent on killing the last of the debt next year and then life will really be good. No big science to it either. Just stop living in the big house, driving the big car, watching the big TV, blowing money on the next big thing paid by credit. Live where it is cheap, and where even a lower salary doing something you might think sucks will provide a more positive cashflow. Use the cashflow to permanently kill your debt obligations, and sin no more.
Getting rid of the needless monthly bills will put a lot of money in your pocket. This will let you grow in wealth even when the rest of the world economy is sucking. It is worth the effort, even if you have to work two joe-jobs and live in a seedy part of town to do it. Prices for food, clothing and basic stuff has gone down over time, adjusted for inflation, and when these are your only bills, then your money ends up being worth more. And this will help you weather the global changes, for when you have a pile of money in the bank, it can then work for you, and the days of joe-jobbing and worrying about some foreign worker taking your job are over. One semi-decent job will be all you need, if that.
One day, all these things will balance. For when the average Chinese, Indian, or Korean starts living pretty well, they will be making roughly what we do. If we are smart, we should be doing the same or better than they, since we now are making more, and we should use that capital wisely to position ourselves better in the world economy. And we can, unless we still insist on overpaying for things like houses and cars.
Those workers were likely out drinking with the boss.
The key to getting promoted in Korea is to go out drinking with the boss, and being able to hold your liquor. The friend I have with the highest position in Korea also is known for having an iron liver. He brags that he can drink ’15 boiler maka’.
Also, Koreans put in very long hours in education. However, they don’t seem to get much done. The return on investment seems rather low.
They are, however, a ‘pushy’ people and over all are hard working.
It’s never an apple to oranges comparison.
“I’d be going out to have a drink with friends at 10pm and the subway is full of guys in suits carrying briefcases just on their way home from work.”
So, you’re saying the Koreans were lazy bums who leave work early… compared to most of the US software shops where I’ve worked.
There was a time we had 3 shops, each a little specialized, but all working on the same core, bread and butter software product. One was in southern California, another in Germany, and the main shop in Minnesota, just down the block from where we manufactured the super-computers.
Somehow, we all got to pointing fingers. “Where’s that info I asked for yesterday? Those California guys must be playing volleyball on the beach all afternoon.” “Those German guys are sloppy. Their designs are poor and they always hae a lot of bugs.” “Those Minnesota people are too slow to develop new features, too bureaucratic. They keep pushing back release dates.”
So, we used some L-1 visas and brought the Californian guys and the German guys (and even a few field people from Israel and Washington and Albuquerque) in to Minnesota, rotating them a few at a time for a couple weeks to 6 months. And we found that the German guys were always taking breaks and long lunches and week-ends. The California guys were laid-back in style, but on top of the work. And some of the Minnesota guys essentially lived at the office, and needed more time off to increase their creativity and productivity (and were being pinched by rising costs of living). Together, we got rid of the bugs, finally turned out some of those “must have” features we’d been struggling with, and improved our release cycles.
But by then the US government had added more incentives to encourage body shopping, then they created the H-1B to encourage cross-border body shopping, and that facilitated off-shoring… and it all came unraveled. The pieces of the conglomerate were split up. Some went independent. Some were taken over. Many simply evaporated, unable to stay viable outside the matrix of the corporation. The last CEO was left with a tiny pay-roll processing outfit in place of what had been a dynamic, creative firm that had been doing great things with super-computers, mining equipment, car rentals, solar and wind power, hydroponics, telecommunications, electrical power management and wholesale power transaction processing, finance (savings and loans, commercial credit…), electronic ticket sales, lottery management, airline reservations, real estate, media ratings, employee counseling services, employee relocation services, computer-based education, ship defense control and targeting systems (Phalanx, Aegis), venture capital and start-up incubation… There for a while, there were a few tens of thousands of very bright, knowledgeable, creative, industrous STEM workers rattling around the twin cities unemployed and rapidly scattering in search of a means to survive, going back to universities to attempt to re-tool, etc.
“Half-Life thing” ??
Such bovine stercus. But what a surprise that it comes from a CFO. (sarcasm). Any engineer who believes that this is true has stopped learning..given up! Put plainly, they sit in a chair for nearly 8 hours a day, probably drooling on themselves doing a repetitive task that is marginally “engineering”. These are also the first people to hold up an advanced degree “proving” that they are learning new things too. These are the same people who copied off my Calculus tests and lab work in college. The same people that stand outside my cube and talk blithely for hours about absolutely nothing of value..and yet are surprised when they find themselves out of work one day and begin screaming and yelling that they can’t compete with H1-B’s.
Someone in management at a very large storage company once said something that (at the time) I took as offensive. “Engineers are like LEGO blocks. Its managements job to build the thing customers want and each engineer provides some type of “block” for which that product is built.” In retrospect, they are correct it seems. When Jormundgard applies his perception, he doesn’t see the demand side of the equation. Why hire a PhD in wave dynamics when the only blocks you need to complete your product is a Perl scriptor?
Or rather, why hire a $120k a year American Perl scriptor when I can get 3 for that price in 3 separate time zones that will work around the clock for my product?
This is classic “Who moved my cheese?”. As an engineer, you are skilled above most others to look for cause and effect..and understand it. Adapt to the paradigm and get around it. I worked my way through my engineering degree in ROTC. Perhaps foolishly, as a Marine. Our mantra (amongst other less polite mantras) was to improvise, adapt and overcome. Your job will be taken by someone who wants it more. Your business will cease to exist by someone that can do it better. Its modern day natural selection..shame on you for not seeing it.
Maybe there is a significant East Coast/West Coast difference here. All that verification the CFO is talking about must be on the West Coast, because here in the DC area, its all about cheapest labor for the defense contracts. Especially here, where there isn’t the startup mentality and innovation isn’t the point but the exception, 90% of the H1-B hires are for entry-level, cheapest wage engineers.
And if you look at the overall percentages of H1-B’s given out each year, I would suspect that most of them don’t go to ‘innovative companies’.
The brain drain is a real concern, but the H1-B program is a horribly flawed attempt at a solution that does more harm than good. If ‘brain drain’ is really the problem we’re trying to solve, than the startup visa program being discussed is a much better idea. It would not only bring the best and brightest over, it would ADD new jobs for US citizens.
At whose expense does Bob Cringely want to protect the domestic engineers? At the expense of consumers who use Google and Microsoft products, buy iPhones and Toyotas. Why don’t we ban all imported goods, not only labor, in order to protect a few domestic manufacturers?
why not ?
do you want to live in 3rd world country levels,
Oh wait, happened. USA has tent cities, just like India and Haiti
People who buy MSFT, IBM, Google, Oracle, HP, Toyota and Nissan products deserve the over-priced low quality they get.
Speaking of availability of US engineers for jobs brings to mind the hypocrisy of the leader of Intel about paying competitive salaries because they have to in order to compete.
Yes indeed, competitive as driven down by H1-B.
And the reason for fewer US kids studying engineering? Why work that hard when you can be a biz idiot and fiddle with someone else’s money? Maybe competence is harder to track in business?
I think that attracting the best and brightest is a good idea, perhaps almost as good as training the best and brightest of Americans. I don’t see a whole lot of effort by “the system” to do this.
I work at a large chip manufacturer and the job roles they designate as needing a PhD could be done by a bachelors engineer. But since they designate it as a PhD position they can use the H1-B system and get indentured servants.
OK. this is one that is a sore spot with me, so I have to inflict/inject a comment.
Unlimited? Really Bob? Your CFO (and probably most) might know they comply with the rules where they have searched for ‘qualified’ Americans in and out of the company. The problem with that is that ‘qualified’ part can be set up so that it is impossible (or nearly) for an American to meet. Additionally, the general move from mainframe-centric IT shops to distributed IT shops nearly always results in new, younger hires with promises of ‘retraining’ the older staff on the new bleeding edge tech.
I am one of many people that got ‘right-sized’ out of a position because the company I was with consolidated three IT groups into one. It didn’t matter that one group was primaryily mainframe, another distributed and the third was database-centric. We were all pooled into the same org chart and the budget was slashed. Out of that, slowly but surely, most of the senior level people (experience and age-wise) were deemed as holding duplicated positions of less senior (H1-B AND off-shore) and were right-sized.
I held a fairly enviable position in that my experiences in IT cover a far broader range of disciplines than most. I have developed on mainframe, mid-size, server and micro platforms. No one thought that I was expendable (at least from my immediate management on down). Turns out that the ‘company’ (read HR’s directive to trim staff) felt multiple individuals, each with a portion of my experience (all off-shore) could do my work.
I have been amused over the past few years as I occasionally get a call from individuals asking for assistance with issues they have encountered. I have been happy to assist most of them (friends are still friends) where I could.
I found another position that is compensating me in the proper salary range. FYI – all the positions I applied for locally (and got offers for) all maxed out at 20% LESS than what I had gotten at my former employee. Part of that was due to off-shore and H1-B salary ranges lowering the average compensation for the types of positions I was ‘qualified’ to hold. Most HR’s love to work with people coming in at the lowe/(r/st) dollar range for a position, because they can then recalculate the average for that position and use that as the center for a revised salary range.
Considering all the potential for abuse of off-shore and H1-B, I am amazed that we don’t hear about more of it. Opening up the floodgates to unlimited would probably change that.
The argument about H1B visa’s taking jobs away from americans is only valid if the immigrants leave. If they become citizens then they are american citizens and should be included in the calculation. Really we should hire any qualified applicant and if they meet the requirements of an H1B (providing a service or skill that it was hard to find an american to do), they probably should be given a green card after 2 yrs if things go smoothly. This is doubly true of student visas for graduate school where in addition to satisfying a high bar their training is funded by the government. If they are worth investing in surely they should be worth having as citizens.
I think the rub has something to do with some in management believing that outsiders have better abilities or knowledge than the people on staff. So a contractor is better than an employee (gotta be really smart to be a contractor), and by the same logic a foreign-born contractor has to be even better. But an outsider is an outsider and outsiders are never liked because they aren’t of the “People.”
So ya, H1B visa’s need some convertibility. Student visa’s definitely, you could refer to it as a sort of knowledge drain. Business handle this by having employees sign employment contracts (which usually comes with a raise). Why not do this as a country, give people the direct opportunity to be come “People,” to not be an outsider any more. It solves lots of problems, promotes the USA as a skill destination, not just a skill rush (as in gold… If you think H1B visa holders aren’t here for the money, think again). So incent them to stay and integrate.
Then the problem becomes over-population and lower quality of life for the average resultant US citizen.
No wonder the guy has visa trouble, does he seriously have a special skillset to be a glorified accountant, and when does his expire? Give or take a day, I’ll guess it’s whenever his golden parachute opens.
The only sour grapes I’m not convinced of is that hiring over the age of 45 in IT is unheard of… because that discrimination is in every field. By all rights, I should be chasing some hospital/university/government job before I’m 40 and hanging on for dear life, because I know what happens to the older guys I have worked with in the private sector. Nobody wants to hire an “old man” as if they should care because they’ll liquidate him in a few years whether he’s 45 or 25.
The basic problem is that the sudden entry of India and china into the global trading network massively increased the supply of workers. Employers these days are ridiculously choosy. On the job training or the idea of someone learning the job is alien to them. Their competitors won’t pay for it so why should they?
This is great for consumers, but a disaster for workers. And it gets worse by the year.
Consumers are workers, and vice-versa. Something can’t be great for one and terrible for the other. Do the lower prices offset the wage deflation?
Kind of like Walmart.
You’re right, most people wear two different hats – producer and consumer. Although not everyone works.
You might be miserable during the week because you didn’t get a pay-rise this year, but happy on the weekend when you notice plasma TVs have fallen even further in price. Most people don’t see the link between these two phenomena.
Falling TV prices are only a benefit to me on those rare occasions when I am making a durable goods purchase. On the other hand, flat or dropping pay is with me all the time, and the food and fuel prices are not dropping at all. The really crummy part is the future, where I have as many cheap durable goods as I can stack up, still can’t afford food or gas, and my wages slip even further.
And then you’d be ticked off again when you discovered your $1K television died after a year while your old or “obsolete” set made in the USA or Japan had lasted 10-15 years, and those shirts that used to last 20 years now only last one year, and
the shoes that used to last 2-5 years only last one year, and
your cheap brief-case lasts only a year before falling apart, and
your cheap back-pack disintegrates in 3-4 years as compared with your old one that you used for a couple decades, and
that little red wagon you got for the kids falls apart in a few months (as compared to the one your father had and passed down to you and your nephews and nieces), and
your son gets hurt when the plastic swing set collapses, and
the basketball back-board splits and disintegrates after a couple rains, and
the washer only lasts 2 years while the old one had lasted 10, and
you run through another cell phone every 6-12 months, and
the jar of pasta sauce is the same price but a few ounces short,
the new music player lasts a year (taking your expensive collection of tunes with it) while the old one had lasted several decades…
and you’d realize that “cheap” price wasn’t so inexpensive after all.
Hmm, by that standard the web was invented by an obsolete old guy.
As far as I’m concerned, anyone graduating from college with a scientific or technical degree should have a permanent resident visa stapled to their diploma. Law degrees and MBAs should deportation orders stapled to theirs.
I’m 55 and the job situation does suck, but do you think it will get better if we chase the smart people off? Smart people are the ones who create jobs.
If Indians are so much smarter, why are they not creating jobs in their own country?
1) a few are, but…
2) its a lot harder in india-capital markets are thinner and less sophisticated, corruption in the public sector is endemic and basic things we take for granted, like electricity, are not guaranteed 24/7.
Thinner capital markets, less regulation…?
Hmmm? Apparently those MBA and Law degrees have some value after all. Maybe we just misapply them.
No, no one here suggested that we should chase any smart people away… only those stupid H-1Bs.
Engineers are needed when you want to make something. If that something happens to be a product, then engineers are also needed to make the machines and the factory needed to make the product. Many things you use in life was the result of engineering work.
That said — Many USA companies have stopped developing products, and they have stopped making products. When you ship all the development and production off shore — you eliminate most of the engineering jobs in this country. It doesn’t matter which country has the smartest students or the best education system. The jobs go where the work goes.
The next good question is why has so much R&D and production gone offshore? It costs too much to operate a business in the USA. There are several major reasons for this. Changes in the tax laws, taxes, new government regulations, and runaway health care costs have all contributed to the problem. Until these and other core problems are fixed, the USA will continue to lose high tech and good paying jobs.
One of the foundation lessons in engineering is a basic law of physics: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This law also applies to business and the economy. When you do something that hurts business, it will hurt the economy, it will then hurt the workers and the job market.
From an engineering point of view — our current situation is completely understandable and the solution is quite obvious. Unfortunately we don’t elect the brightest minds to serve in Washington DC. They won’t act until things get really bad. By then it could take 50 years to turn things around. We are after all about 30 years into the current problem.
From an engineering point of view — our future is also completely obvious. The aging population will overwhelm Social Security, Medicare, and our over priced health care system. If the inflationary pressures in these areas is not reversed, the next generation and the economy will not be able to bear the cost. The mathematics are quite simple. Time is running out.
You can chose to ignore the laws of math and science, but you can’t escape then.
You don’t need an engineer every time you want to make something. You only need an engineer if you want to make something NEW or in a new way.
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You have so few engineers and scientists because of your environment. That includes bad schools, bad food, bad air and water, thieves masquerading as leaders, entertainers and paid shills masquerading as journalists, need I go on?
Change the environment! Begin by reclaiming your own declaration of independence. It’s as valid today with respect to your congressional mafia as it was with respect to England when it was written.
You must mount a campaign to transfer power to real representatives who will use the internet as a consensus-generator to determine what is law.
This is your most vital mission. You have until 2012. You fail at our peril.
I came to the US on an H1B in the mid 70’s – basically because I knew how to do the job they needed and the company couldn’t be bothered to train or pay a US citizen to do the job. I wasn’t paid at the going rate and I was tied to the company that I worked for … however, they paid all the visa costs and hired a lawyer to apply for Alien Residency… effectively freeing me from them. As a direct result of employing me, the company setup a US based service operation, eventually employing six US citizens.
These days I run my own company – in the US, employing US citizens and I’m a US citizen myself. We build medical gear (in the USA) and export worldwide…
There are no simple answers …
“I came to the US on an H1B in the mid 70’s.”
Aww, c’mon, Edmund. The H-1B wasn’t hatched until 1990. NSF hadn’t even started lobbying for a flood of student visas (cheap academic labor) and creation of the H-1B (cheap private sector labor) until after 1985.
NSF: “A growing influx of foreign PhDs into U.S. labor markets will hold down the level of PhD salaries to the extent that foreign students are attracted to U.S. doctoral programs as a way of immigrating to the U.S.A. . A related point is that for this group the PhD salary premium is much higher [than it is for US citizens], because it is based on BS-level pay in students’ home nations versus PhD-level pay in the U.S.A. [plus he additional compensation of the higher quality of life in the USA]… . [If, after we do this,] doctoral studies are failing to appeal to a large (or growing) percentage of the best citizen baccalaureates, then a key issue is pay… . A number of [the Americans] will select alternative career paths… . For these baccalaureates, the effective premium for acquiring a PhD may actually be negative.”
This is a really sore subject for me and not because I’ve lost my job. I work for a large San Jose based company that hires lots of H1-B workers. I have several that work for me and I can say they are all excellent people and I enjoy working with them. I’d hate to see any of them get deported but I don’t buy the argument that there are no qualified Americans. I’ve reviewed American applicants being used to justify the H1-B and the whole thing is a waste of time. Any company or manager can figure out how to comply to the rules without really complying to the spirit of the law. The system we have put in place makes it easier to constantly bring in new talent and not invest in growing the talent that’s already in place. To make things worse as more talent is brought in from off shore and moves up the management ladder they tend to favor people with the same background as them and before long Americans are the minority. I was part of an organization where most all of the upper management was Indian even though it was an Amerian company in America there was little hope of moving up. The 100K limit posed above is a good idea to stop the abuse.
Companies complain about the American education system but don’t do anything to provide continuing education to their employees.
I say we tie H1-Bs to company’s willingness to pay for education opportunities for their current employees.
As a software engineer I have to keep up with the changing education requirements but I get almost no help from the company to do this … no classes in my field, no time off to pursue learning outside the company, no money to offset the expense.
If I’m working 10-12 hr days to meet imposed deadlines, I’m not in much shape to go home and study computer science techniques. I’m too tired and stress out.
I’m not whining; I’m just saying.
It’s not just hi-tech that likes to use cheap foreign labor. Wait and see what happens to the fresh fruit supply this summer when the aggressive anti-immigration action against mexican farm labor continues as it’s been through the pruning season. Maybe all the laid-off engineers, middle managers, teachers, etc will rush to the fields from the cities, eh? Let’s hope.
We’ll do better to return to the immigration law of 1870 – None. That will solve the social security and medicare funding problem, and lower the cost of living except maybe for housing. Tough on our kids maybe, but good for those who are about to retire. If the US had a low cost labor pool, it would have more manufacturing.
The restrictions that nations put on the movement of people is one reason that global warming is such a threat. The freedom to travel and live anywhere in the world should be recognized as a basic human right.
“this summer when the aggressive [anti-illegal alien] action against mexican farm labor continues”
Continues? It hasn’t begun. The politicians and bureaubums have been fighting against US citizens for half a century or more on this. They’ve learned to play the media. At best, they make a tiny number of show arrests, then loudly announce the “massive crack-down” and feverishly work to try to create a back-lash (which never materializes). (It’s been over a year since the last intentionally ineffectual show raid.)
Oooh, look at all the unfortunate family members separated because illegal alien papa or mama is in the hoosegow pending the hearing (but don’t pay any attention to the fact that they were released on their own recognizance without posting bail after just a few hours). They’re just filling in because we have such a terrible shortage; don’t pay any attention to the fact that compensation in affected industries has dropped like a rock with every amnesty, and certainly don’t pay attention to that line of US citizens stretching around the block, hoping to get one of those jobs Americans simply will not do. Don’t pay attention to the blacks locked out of the construction trades employment, or the fact that the average construction worker in the USA no longer is paid enough to save up to pay for his own home within 5-10 years. Don’t pay any attention to those US citizens who can no longer afford to send their children to college while the state’s tax-victims subsidize the foreign students and illegal aliens.
Meanwhile, La Racists, MeCha, Aztlan and SEIU somehow have the piles of ready cash to charter a fleet of buses to bring in bodies to the next riot, distribute pre-printed signs and shirts and hats, which the media will dutifully report as having twice as many participants as there actually were… and then turn around and under-report the turn-out to peaceful demonstrations for security and sanity by a factor of 3 or 4.
Two arguments that simply do not fly with me are that secure borders and ports equals racism, and “that’s work Americans won’t do”. I’m a mutt, with probably a little more Conan the barbarian, Daffyd and Cinead in the proportion of mix, but still a mutt; the whole world is my cousin. And I’ve plowed and planted and sown and dusted and weeded and cultivated and picked and baled and shucked and pressed and canned and frozen and shoveled and mucked-out, and gutted and dressed, and sawn, and printed… and well over 80% of such work is still being done by US citizens.
But why should anyone be able or permitted to enter the USA without having undergone and passed a proper background investigation (not a mere data-base “check”) of their character and likelihood of initiating force or fraud? And once they’re admitted as guests, why should they not be kept track of well enough to escort them back out when their time has expired?
“””Over 45 the hiring rate is zero.””” — as stated, this is just bullshit. I was living (and successfully working) in Europe, and my present employer (a high-tech firm in California) reached over the Atlantic , interviewed me relentlessly, made me a great offer, and hired me, when I was 49. Epsilon > 0…!-)
I didn’t come over with an H1B, not after a quarter century’s experience, of course — I came with an O1, “Alien of Exceptional Skills”. (I had foolishly let my previous green card expire, by going back to live in Europe, where I was born, to continue growing my career after earlier stints at US companies). Now I have a green card again, of course.
I know a lot of brilliant youngsters who can’t _yet_ prove “they’re in the top 1% of their profession worldwide” (the informal expression of criteria for an O1). If they can’t get H1B’s, they may work in our offices in London or Zurich, I guess.
I hear Microsoft’s opened an engineering office in Vancouver, close enough to their main site in Redmond, just for those many brilliant youngsters who can’t get H1B’s but have no problem qualifying for Canada’s skills-based immigration. I guess the US just doesn’t want those young guys’ copious income taxes and other benefits (sales taxes, stimulus to local economy, …) if they could live and work here — better to let Canada, Switzerland or UK have that money, right?-)
Microsoft is bringing those folks in Vancouver over on a different visa, L-1.
Well, Alex, it would be more exact to say that 40 is the age when discrimination becomes apparent in STEM fields. Some (e.g. Dr. Matloff) have observed it as early as 35.
But we’re still ahead of script-writers and actors, who get hit with it when they’re about 30. There was a case a decade or more ago when a particular over-30 writer couldn’t get any more interest in her scripts. So, she created a teen-age persona. The producers, directors, and critics suddenly loved her fresh, innovative work coming from this brilliant teen. After a while she came clean on “60 minutes” or the equivalent… and the scammers expressed shock, shock, that she would dare to deceive them that way.
I expect to see some of the same things happening in STEM fields any time now. There were already articles back in 1998 and again about 2003 saying that some STEM workers with a little money were going in for plastic surgery, colored contact lenses, skin treatments and hair dye just to have a chance at job fairs and interviews. It’s much worse, now.
And life expectancies in the USA have been increasing. If body shopping continues to expand, and people have increasing difficulty landing new work once they reach 35 or 40 or 50, how are we going to support our families and ourselves for the other 30, 40, or 50 years of their lives? Well, of course, national socialist health care perversion will end the increasing life expectancies, and the poverty, itself will shorten lives, but that’s not exactly what I’d call an acceptable “solution”.
Why not just make them bid for H1-B’s? If the cost of the H1B was related to demand, it would very quickly result in them being related to the scarcity of the skill.
I just watched Michael Moorse’s movie “Capitalism, A love story.” It is not his best movie but he does bring up some good issues and facts I did not know. For example, President Roosevelt wanted to create a 2nd bill of rights(
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights). In the end, Germany and Japan both got these rights and we (USA) did not. Some of these rights are:
– The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation.
– The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health.
– The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment.
He had more wisdom back then than a lot of people do today.
All worthy goals but whose going to pay for them? We’re competing with the world and can not unilaterally impose costs and taxes to fund our “wish list” without completely undermining our competitiveness. I think in some respects the USA’s glory days were from post world war II to 2000. Our last great accomplishment was unleashing a technological age which, ironically, leveled the playing field for the rest of the world so that they could effectively compete with us. And I don’t see how, in a world where we compete with India and China, we can continue our standard of living when there are so many people around the world who are more than happy to do the same work as us for a fraction of the cost.
> All worthy goals but whose going to pay for them?
I don’t have an exact answer but I do know that Germany provides better economic security for its citizens than the USA… AND they are (I think) the 2nd largest manufacturer in the world. And during this recession, most companies in Germany did not lay off large amounts of their workers – they are not beholden as much to the a quarterly report. Large numbers of unemployed people do no one any good.
Germany was (until 2009), was the worlds largest exporter of goods and services. They actually create* wealth by exporting all their high end goods.
USA consumes (import) MORE – a lot more- than we create (export). There is no way to pay for stuff if you don’t create wealth….and we are not creating wealth. Every year the USA is worth less and less per capita as we import more and more.
The US, however, is passing the money around and aggregrating it into fewer hands (see Wall Street, Hedge Funds, etc…). There were 25 new hedge fund manger billionaires last year, down from 47 in 2009.
Ultimately, here in the US it is degrading and a personal failure to work with ones hands and make stuff. Not so in Germany or China.
My dad said he’s voted Republican ever since he voted for Roosevelt!
The difference between Mexico and the U.S. is we had Roosevelt and they did not.
The difference between Canada and the U.S. is we had Reagan and they did not.
The farther north you go, the better the living and working conditions.
I spent a year on contracts for an employer that manufactured factory equipment. U.S. standards for safety in equipment are the lowest in the world – we had to charge extra for meeting those standards.
The U.S. is on the fast track to becoming Mexico. We are a second rate economy on our way to becoming a third rate one.
Yeah, but Tom, these ‘rights’ are the same as stated in another constituion…the Soviet Union’s!
> ‘rights’ are the same as stated in another constitution…the Soviet Union’s!
That sounds plausible.
The reason that I brought up the movie is that he seemed to address some of the sources of unfairness in our society. Importing people might solve a short term technical personal shortage but can also be use to lower costs. Who has the say in this issue? The people at the top. And no one in the USA is really monitoring them. In Germany, some of the board of directors are decided by the employees of the company. This has been found to be a benefit for all parties.
Bob, you just recommended jail time for people who act in the best interests of their company. Do you think that will make people more or less likely to hire new employees?
That kind of thinking is what got us into this mess in the first place.
You should join the public relations staff at Goldman Sachs.
I think at some point, H-1B visa issue will become moot, as businesses either move operations closer to where talents and customers are located or adapt their operations to utilize remote telecommuting. It is a problem now because a lot of business operation still remains in US for legacy reasons, yet sources of talents and markets have been recently cultivated all around the world. Soon there will be no specific US-located jobs. There will simply be technical jobs.
The best thing people in US (or any other countries for that matter) can to is invest in education and training themselves to keep job skill sets current and marketable. There is no real national boundaries for business, and individuals really have to be world-class-competent working for world-market-salary to be hired.
I highly doubt the CFO’s “half-life” thing. Good engineers continue learning even outside of their academic degrees; and personally, I got a lot more out of what I learned outside of academia than inside it.
Additionally, some things (like Electrical Engineering) change slowly – while certain sub-fields (e.g. computer hard drive engineering) change fast. The base principles still don’t change that much – and most companies that are working where it does change faster you’d have to be at the company to learn the stuff since it is hidden from academia through NDA’s and other stuff.
Also, per H1-B’s – it’s all a matter of how you define the job. That’s the real loop-hole in the system. If you define the criteria just right you can say that you couldn’t find anyone that qualified, and then were able to when you went overseas. It’s not something new, and it’s not something specific to H1-B’s either – managers do it all the time when they have someone they want to hire already selected but have to put it through the system; so the job requirements basically become the resume of the individual they want to hire.
To the CFO’s – if you really having that much trouble with hiring the right people, why not start hiring people here in the US and train them as needed – whether through outright sending to academia 100% or 50% of the time, or through on-the-job-training. Stop making excuses at the cost of the nation.
Then again, CEOs typically don’t stay around much more than a few years any more; what’s the turnover rate on CFOs? That in itself is probably very telling.
Excellent post! A lot of HR people (usually middle aged females who have never turned on a computer in their lives!) don’t really understand how technology changes, or doesn’t. They get obsessed over, for instance, whether someone has used Linux kernel 2.4, or 2.6, or 1.2.13, and ignore the big picture. Tech firms want to hire people with in-depth proprietary expertise, but only pay them at entry-level rates. H1-B is a travesty, no doubt about that, and every last H1-B holder and Green Card holder should be loaded up on boxcars and sent back from where they came.
I am and engineer from India. I got my M.S in Computer Engineering from the US. I then worked in the tech industry for about 3 years. And then I left to move to Europe. Why?
Because the way the H1-B laws are structured, they’re indentured labour until you get your green card. The people handing out Green cards understandably want to regulate the system so that citizens of a few high-bandwidth countries (say India and China) doesn’t dominate all the GCs issued and others get a chance. But it means, that getting a GC takes anywhere from 6-8 years now.
Now, during this time, I can not change jobs. Otherwise the process starts from scratch. Ergo, I stay put in the same job for 6-8 years getting smaller raises and tolerating bullshit in order to get that GC. Indentured labour.
Make it like most country in Europe have it – decouple the H1-B visa from the company. You get a residence permit based on a job, but you are allowed to move jobs at will WITHOUT affecting your efforts to become a permanent resident. Now suddenly companies have to pay to keep H1-B talent.
5 years after moving to Europe, I’m a permanent resident on my way to citizenship. Thank goodness I left, else I’d be holding onto a crippling mortgage in Silicon valley for a property that really wasn’t worth it and stuck in a dead-end job awaiting my GC.
Amit, why not go back to India and do something that will, for instance, give a large percentage of the 1+ billion population, running water and flush toilets?
Why has the economic and intelligent elite of your country decided to shirk a responsibility to your nation, to go overseas? You’d make a heck of a lot more impact on the quality of life for people on earth if you would use your engineering skills to bring India’s standard of living up to Western standards, than you would working at some IT job in Europe.
if these C-levels will commit to hiring domestically, to paying again for staff training, to developing talent instead of leeching it for a project and dumping it, then there will be students from Kansas and North Dakota and California taking technical classes again.
otherwise, pard, you are Stuck Outa Luck. and by the way, if you’re shipping all the work overseas and overseeing it, you really ought to go where the work is.
or heck, you can be outsourced, too.
Wow! Thanks for making my career choice…I’m a high school teacher 3 years from retirement (with pension) look so darn good. I have worked… mostly happy… in the same profession for 30+ years, AND I avoided the math classes in college!
🙂
Well, not all engineers suffer at trying to stay employed. I was recruited at age 60, and then again at 63, both times by consulting companies that recognize the value of broad based experience. Now, planning to retire in June, I keep being asked to stick around, figure on working part time, etc. And when I was chief engineer at a manufacturing company, I liked hiring engineers who were so experienced that I could learn from them.
Bob,
Congrats, as usual you tend to pick controversial topics and succeed in getting many people to comment, argue and take positions. This is great journalism.
I don’t fall into the “typical” category of an on-shore worker as I’m a Canadian citizen not living in Canada choosing to work offshore. Often my clients are Canadian & US based companies looking for engineering work done on projects that are being done either/both on-shore and offshore. Work done by my company is not typically cheaper than American companies, but does employ the best people we can find in the GLOBAL talent pool which does give us some wonderful competitive advantages.
Recognizing the “protectionism” comments are easy as they tend to be focused on the personal loss of a job and/or reluctance of the employee losing the job to consider alternative employment or upgrading their skills in order to compete. Although understanding and sympathizing with these comments, they do not belong to the reality of the American economy today. The American economy is part of a GLOBAL economy not THE global economy as it once may have been. It needs to address the realities that it must be competitive on a GLOBAL scale or it will rapidly lose its position of dominance.
I would however like to propose that H1B Visas succeed in attracting a talent pool to come to the USA that augments and enhances the already established pool of talented American engineers. What happens when you introduce a massive influx of talented engineers into the American system honed to fund and innovate new products? You get incredible market stimulation, new products, new companies, new services
As an additional bonus, all of the money made on these new products remains in the American economy, not in some offshore economy that may not buy American products and services. That new H1B Visa engineer you hired just bought a new Chevy and a new house in YOUR local community – is that not market stimulation?
An alternative argument as proposed by many here in the comment section is to close all the doors and windows on America – let other countries realize the opportunity this represents by embracing this talent, bringing it home and maximizing this potential. America protects its own jobs until the company closes due to not having competitive products…. not a bright strategy.
>>As an additional bonus, all of the money made on these new products remains in the American economy, not in some offshore economy that may not buy American products and services. That new H1B Visa engineer you hired just bought a new Chevy and a new house in YOUR local community – is that not market stimulation?<<
That's a very good point that would be made better if one of the very real effects of the H1B program wasn't to lower the salaries of entire classes of employees. Reading these comments, many of them don't want to get rid of it so much as change it to not demolish salaries for people already in the industry.
That h1b visa engineer would be an even market stimulant if he wasn't buying the house from a guy who just lost his job.
During the process to check if there are qualified US workers for each H1-B position…
Have there ever been cases of the H1-B worker being replaced by a US worker?
I’ve never heard of such a thing.
H1Bs and “Mexican” Illegals serve the same purpose at different ends of the labor market here in NC.
There is a big picture perspective I think we are all missing. I am one of those engineers who has very strong math and science skills, and am working in a different field because there are no engineering jobs. I can definitely relate to this column. (Thanks Bob)
The big picture starts with a question. Why are there so few engineering jobs in the USA? Why are so few companies doing things that need engineers? Why are so few companies doing R&D, or making products in the USA?
This isn’t an education problem. Yes our education system should be better. Our education system didn’t drive all the work offshore, the cost of operating a company did. The USA is losing its ability to competitively produce products on its own shores. That is the big problem.
Being an engineer, we have a knack in finding the real core of a problem. In the past few decades many political and economic things have changed — making it harder for businesses to operate. So solve this problem we have to fix all of them. This is not a one-problem, one-solution issue. Fixing education will not fix the problem. If it costs a company >$20,000 a year to keep a USA worker on the payroll, then that well educated person will also have a hard time finding a job.
So, how about we take a step back then and realize that this whole H1B mess is due to the Federal government taking on powers to which it’s not entitled. Immigration is left to the States in the Constitution. Naturalization is the job of the Federal Government. Remember the Immigration & Naturalization Service (since folded into “Homeland Security”)? They’re two separate matters, it wasn’t the Immigration(Naturalization) Service.
This is important, because California could have one set of laws, and perhaps Massachusetts has another. Then we can see what works and what doesn’t and change to optimize. The Laboratory of Democracy, remember?
But perhaps our politicians went into marketing, seeing how there was no market for figuring out good solutions to complex systems.
Just where in the constitution is immigration placed in the hands of the states?
I believe the post Civil War Amendments to the constitution intentionally nationalized the issue of citizenship – in order to eliminate the logic that drove the Dredd Scott court case that led to the start of the Civil War.
You have the question backwards. All powers are explicitly granted. If not explicitly granted to the Federal Government, then it is to the States. If not explicitly granted to the states, then it is left to the people. So the question is – to whom is it explicitly granted? If not anyone, then it is to the people.
Both Congress and the States have forgotten that, and the people seem to ignore it too.
I’m all for allowing hi-tech immigrants. However, I must ask, “What is the purpose of ‘keeping jobs in the US’?” It makes a lot of sense to keep jobs in the US in order to employ people who live here — I can see the purpose/value there. The purpose / value in creating / keeping a job in the US and importing someone to fill it is not so clear.
There is obviously value in having the company pay a salary that will be spent in the US, thereby helping the economy of the US. Having that same company pay a salary a large part of which will be spent in a different country (because the employee sends a lot ‘home’) may well show up in the economic numbers, but does’t seem to be as helpful to the actual economy here.
For hi-tech jobs however, it seems, as has been noted, that the physical location of the employee is becoming largely irrelevant due to the internet.
> “We have to make it easy for them to come here and to contribute here and to have bright babies here and to have those babies set higher standards here.”
Best and brightest? Isn’t it interesting how US employers claim the “best and brightest” always come from nations where people earn less than $2 a day?
The clear assumption here is that all Indians are all super-geniuses, while all the US born MIT/Berkeley/Stanford/Harvard/etc graduates are stupid. Is that assumption really true? Looking over the last century, or so; I see an astonishing number of technological achievements from Americans: airplanes, telephones, light bulbs, nuclear energy, man on the moon, and certainly computer technology. From India, not so much. In fact, my understanding is that, in spite of India having four times the US population, the US has far more Nobel prizes in technology. Actually, I think there are single high schools in the US that produced more technological Nobel prizes than the entire nation of India.
When it comes to “tech” companies, India seems to focus much more on staffing western corporations, than on creating companies that actually make things. How many of the following major tech companies come from India: Apple, Intel, AMD, IBM, Motorola, GE, HP, Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco, Dell, Google, 3Comm, VMWare, etc?
IBM will soon.
My son is at Harvard. He was one the top 40 Intel finanlists when he was in high school. I told him not to study computer science. Why? I am in the IT field, I saw we outsourced IT job to China or India for $30/hr ( the engneers only get $10/hr). This is a dead field.
What’s worse is once the jobs are outsourced, the brightest minds lost the their platform to practice their trade skills. It’s like getting a MD degree without patients. That’s why our brightest in US do not go into STEM field.
WE NEED TO STOP OUTSOURCING!!!!
Yup. I have seen so many lives ruined by this, and tech employers, because of the abundance and legality of using cheap foreign labour, basically discard the resumes of potential employees who, for instance, took some time off after college for travel, ran their own businesses, or simply, were unemployed because the market was so poor.
Techies aren’t the kind to start riots (most of them tended to be the shy kids in school), or even speak up too vociferously about the situation, but tens of thousands of families across America have or know of an absolutely brilliant son (or daughter!) who has an engineering degree, but is falling deeper and deeper into depression because the resumes submitted to employers who claim they need to hire smart engineering, go unanswered.
Your CFO friend, in my opinion, is full of crap.
“My experience with H1-B is that you have to prove that: (1) you’ve searched for qualified Americans in and out of your company but have been unable to fill the slot (there are many, many cross-checks to assure that is true)”.
Bull. According to the U.S. Department of Labor STRATEGIC PLAN Fiscal Years 2006-2011 (I believe on pg. 35) states: “… H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker.”
Your CFO friend spouted some more B.S. when he stated that:
“[you have to prove] that you’re paying the immigrant at market rates for like experience and education.”
What your friend meant to say is that employers have to prove that they’re paying the GUEST WORKER (H-1B beneficiaries are NOT immigrants) the PREVAILING WAGE set by, I believe, our friends at the U.S. Department of Labor. This “prevailing wage guideline” and market rates are two different things, with the prevailing wage guide LOWER than market rates.
One important thing I forgot to mention –
Your friend says that, “[you have to prove] that you’re paying the immigrant at market rates for like experience and education.”
Experience and education are completely irrelevant – which is one of the loopholes of the H-1B laws. An employer can snatch up a foreign national with years of experience and a PhD for a job that would normally only REQUIRE a year of experience and a bachelors degree and still pay that foreign national AS IF he only had a year of experience and a bachelors degree. The prevailing wage guideline set by the DOL is determined based on the JOB, not the APPLICANT. Why would a foreign national with years of experience and a PhD want to take a job that would seem beneath him? I would argue that many foreign nationals would do just that for the chance at a Green Card.
I graduated in 2002 from Electrical/Computer Engineering at a top-20 university in North America. Sent out several hundred resumes, each customized to the needs of every employer I could find in the Silicon Valley. Barely heard back from any. Still unemployed even to this day, as is most of my graduating class.
The few that are employed are earning less salary than they would have in the 1990s working in the same jobs. Benefits and training opportunities have dissappeared.
Its pretty ridiculous to suggest that the USA does not have enough of a domestic workforce to fully staff Silicon Valley without the use of foreign immigrants. America’s ‘best and brightest’ were attracted to engineering and CS programs from 1995-2001 on the strength of excitement in that industry. Admission standards were set extremely high. Yet when these people graduated, and asked for a fair shake in the employment market, CEO’s of tech firms slammed the doors shut and hired foreigners on the H1-B program.
The result: a collapse in Silicon Valley’s industry, and no recovery, even a decade later, from the tech bust. Some parts of the computer industry are dissappearing from the USA at a rapid rate, for instance, semiconductor design and fabrication.
I’m now 50. In August 2005 I came available. I had nearly 20 years experience in IT. In the next year and a half, I sent out over 970 resumes. The only reply I got back was from a head hunter in Ireland who didn’t believe I wanted to leave the U.S. I now teach English overseas at a fraction of my former wage.
The U.S. is based upon one governing principle: free contract. That means bargaining power is everything. H1Bs shouldn’t even exist. That they do exist is to undermine the bargaining power of workers.
The lack of bargaining power of workers contributed to the crash of demand and the economy.
I remember having a job ad run to satisfy hiring requirements for my first technical job back around 73. I was the one to be hired, but they had to run an ad first as a technicality. And I wasn’t an H1B. The job was as a research assistant for a professor while I was an undergrad. This job ad stuff has been around for a while, only it seems to be more refined now.
Around the 80’s I went to an Intel job fair to see if there was anything there I could do. At that time I was in my early 30’s. I was basically told that I was past my prime for actual programming but that I could still apply for a management position if I wished. I continued working as a consultant.
I think the main problem here is that everyone is trying to get hired by the fortune 500 and at that level there are age and H1B biases. I’ve been lucky to work for either closely held companies, or as a low paid consultant (but living wage) or for small companies of about 30 employees. My current company has no problem with US engineers or their age. The main importance is being able to do the job. I started my current job above 45. I was not well versed in machine vision which was what I was going to do, so the company hired a PhD consultant in machine vision to help. She was a very smart student from China who came here to earn her PhD, but was unwilling to use a method I wanted to use to solve the problem we were working on (because “it was too difficult to make work”). I ended up doing some quick research in the area and quickly brought our product to market using the “difficult” method. My BS in physics and experience with numerical methods was more important to our market success than her PhD.
I think the real problem here is that once a company becomes too large, and possibly becomes a public company (public shareholders), that other rules come into play and individualism and effort are not considered. Managers just look upon all employees as assets, to be purchased at the lowest cost and thrown away after they depreciate.
I personally find it much more fun to work in small companies with a startup mentality than an established outfit. Perhaps some of these unemployed US engineers should get together and form startups and see what they can do.
Even working at fortune 500 companies, I did work for a few of them. most of them could not have enough skills or knowledge to start a company. Only the very best could start a company and have a chance to survive for long term. It is not an average or even above average engineers can do it! Whether US imports more H1B or not, I see US will go downhill (less engineering jobs om US) unless she keeps creating new idea/technologies. Otherwise, I don’t see how she can compete purely the cost and incentive in Asia. Most likely, US will lose most high tech manufacturer jobs gradually. I hope it will last for another 30 years until I could retire! If I knew this, I would think twice before I went for engineer degree.
Basically this program was started because business claimed they could not find enough US citizens in the technical fields. It is debatable. whether this was ever the case, but certainly there was a time when engineers were “in demand”. Fast forward and now companies lay off all of their citizens and permanent residents and keep their H1-bs. Employers now have a strong preference for h-1b because of the indentured servitude situation it creates. We have a situation which discriminates against citizens. The Civil Rights act prevents discrimination based on national origin, so it’s time to fine all of these companies and use the money to help unemployed Americans.
One set of engineering jobs that are pretty immune from the H1B situation is defense – a huge portion of the jobs require US citizenship, and many require a security clearance. And extremely challenging work too. On the SW side, there are very few people skilled at hard-real-time embedded safety-critical / flight-critical SW, so there are always jobs available in those areas.
Yes, real-time is one of the areas I work in and I would say that it’s not something that many software engineers are good at, thus being one where there is demand. I also don’t see the fortune 500 doing much innovation. I don’t expect GM to be doing as much with robots now that they are government and union owned. Before the meltdown, Chrysler was making some big changes by making heavy use of robots for some of their new jeep lines, but now they appear to be fading away. Many fortune 500’s wait for smaller companies to develop the new technology and then either buy it or the small company or raid the key employees.
The other problem with defense work it that you are employed at the whim of congress and I don’t care to be subject to their control.
And I will add this one note about fortune 500 innovation. Chrysler didn’t do their own robotics for these lines. A German robot company came here, built the factory and leased it to Chrysler. Looks like the German’s may lose some money on that one, but perhaps someone else will put it to use.
And another thing about Fortune 500 innovation, in particular auto company innovation and Toyota’s troubles: I’ve been wondering lately, given Toyota’s problems (despite the fact that a lot of the problems are certainly driver error, there are likely a few real problems there), what kind of development and testing processes they use for their safety-critical SW, like the throttle-by-wire SW? Does it match up to the rigor used in the aerospace industry?
I understand you can’t buy a device to read Toyota engine computer fail codes. This forces customers to use Toyota shops for repairs. Perhaps this has something to say about their openness when it comes to sharing engineering designs and specifications. They also claim they only have one prototype device in the US that can read the “black box” memory in their cars and they aren’t sharing that info either. While I don’t know if these reports are true, it doesn’t look good for their openness, considering how they handled the media coverage.
I am still having a problem with the “half-life” comment. I know many engineers, myself included who could go back to school and have no problem getting caught up with the latest greatest education. Those lucky enough to be still working as engineers are pretty up to date with stuff. When one works in the field you are exposed to the new stuff. It is only those who have been out of the engineering workforce for 10+ years who may not be 100% up to speed with their education. They are however, still very good and many possess outstanding project management skills.
I am currently working on an IT project that has a couple dozen H1B workers — the best and brightest from their countries. They all have excellent IT educations. There is one problem — they know very little about operating systems, file systems, and networks. They seem to have great programming skills, but they know almost nothing about what is needed to run their applications in the real world. It is truly scary.
Worse, my company laid off a small army of USA workers and replaced them with H1B workers and with off-shored labor. Many of the people I saw go had programming skills as good, or as better than the folks that replaced them. Their education and skill base was much broader.
I live in the USA. About 5 years ago my first kid was preparing for college. At the time I asked my friends an important question.
What fields of study will have the best employment opportunities and work longevity? What advice would you give your college bound kid?
It is an important question. If you don’t have any college bound kids, put yourself in the shoes of an 18 year old. Answering this question is a very sobering exercise. I strongly encourage everyone go through this exercise! It will open your eyes.
My daughter received a degree in Math and Math Education. She is working on her masters degree and hopes to be a HS Math teacher next fall.
My first son is working on a business degree in finance and accounting. He will probably get a masters degree in accounting or an MBA.
My second son will go to college in August to study Civil Engineering. He picked that field carefully.
My third and last son is a freshman in HS. We will start his career discussions this summer and enroll him in a couple ‘think about college’ programs.
John
John,
I am an ex- (and aging) software engineer, and I appreciate your question:
“What fields of study will have
(A) the best employment opportunities and
(B) work longevity?”
Well, my daughter is now in college studying Theater Stage Management. While her choice of profession does not rank particularly high on (A), oddly enough, it seems that perhaps is rather high on (B)! Assuming no cosmic or national meltdown, there are like to be about as many jobs per capita in this field in 40 years as there are now.
And they cannot be outsourced.
[…] Misuse The recruiter is taking a sick day today so instead of writing I’m going to direct you to a great article on Robert Cringely’s blog. In addition to some thought provoking information on the use and/or […]
This isn’t only about industrial engineering. . It’s not only about mechanical engineering, or computer hardware engineering. . The H-1B program (and federal measures which encouraged body shopping within the USA before it) has negatively affected US citizens across all STEM occupations (and beyond to teachers, paralegals, lawyers, nurses, doctors…), knowledge and intelligence levels.
We’ve got Mensa members teaching H-1B recipients the latest greatest tools and methodologies on an adjunct faculty basis, who can no longer get the time of day from employers.
And your CFO friend is misinformed or lying. . The “prevailing wage” provision does not truly require paying actual local market compensation rates for knowledge, ability, experience, credentials and specific job, but merely above a rather low floor based only on the general job title (one dodge is to give the person a lower job title; another inherent scam of this is that weighing down the average and median are the lowest-talent newbies). . And if these are super-stars, with skills not otherwise available anywhere in the USA, then one would expect them to command compensation several times the local mean (500%, 300%, at the very least 120% or in the top few percentiles). . Yet, Dr. Matloff, in his examination of that small fraction of H-1B grantees sponsored for green cards, in part because they were the most outstanding of the employers’ H-1B recipients, found that their compensation turned out to be a tiny fraction of a percentage point above the mean (i.e. 100.001% of the mean).
Nor is there a solid requirement to make a good-faith effort to recruit US citizens. . As lobbyist Joel Stewart put it, back on 2000 April 24, in his article “Legal Rejection of US Workers”: “even in a depressed economy, employers who favor aliens have an arsenal of legal means to reject all U.S. workers who apply.” . The PERM process for conversion from H-1B to a green card has something resembling such a requirement, but the immigration lawyer association spokesman described it as a “charade”, and Cohen & Grigsby, Fragomen et al., and dozens of other law firms with immigration practices are eager to teach and coach HR people in how to legally game it while avoiding all US applicants.
US DoL says: “H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of the foreign worker.”
The Federal Register 2006-06-30, Sec. 2, paragraph 4: “the statute does not require employers… to demonstrate that there are no available US workers or to test the labor market for US workers as required under the permanent labor certification program.” (from Donna Conroy of https://www.brightfuturejobs.com/)
Besides age discrimination, the flood of pliant labor also makes it easier to undermine US standards of professional ethics. Have an idea for a project that involves massive privacy violations or copyright violations, maybe a little spamming or identity theft, to help you manage your human trafficking operation? Bring in some cheap help that doesn’t know better and is afraid to blow the whistle on you.
Well said. Thank you.
I’m currently un-employed. I’ve been that way for 4 months so far. I live in Silicon Valley and have worked here nearly 30 years. I’m that odd duck that is still an engineer after 30 years. I changed careers at 15 years out of school from a board designer to a chip designer (that half-life thing was all to apparent.)
I’ve been working for the last 10+ years in the Chip Design Service sector, i.e. contractor. I was an employee for companies that either placed me on-site, or did turn-key projects. I’ve worked for 3 different service companies. Two were owned by Indian nationals, the third by US nationals.
One of the two Indian companies played fast-and-loose with the immigration rules. They would bring bodies over from India and put them on-site claiming they were here for training but actually just using them as cheap labor. They would put up to 4 employees into company owned apartments. They paid them Indian wages and collected US rates.
The second Indian owned company was VERY above-board. They were scrupulous about bringing folks over from India and vice-versa.
The US owned company average age is 50+ and I think that is the only reason I a haven’t seen ageism there. We’re all ancient. They charged more for their talent, but we also tended to do the job with quite a bit fewer bodies assigned to the programs (work smarter?)
Now that I’m un-employed I’m seeing ageism. I’ve taken to NOT including my graduation date from college on my resume and removing the first 15 years of experience from it too. I just say “previous experience as a board designer.” It was getting way to long anyway.
There are a few things that are becoming apparent to me in my job search. My engineering half-life is expiring again. The things that I know are still in demand, but people don’t want to pay for them. You also need to have “domain” specific knowledge. People want to hire Network gurus or Verification experts – not generalists that have done all kinds of projects that can learn quickly. At 30 years into my career I’m getting caught by the “You can’t get experience without first having a job/you can’t get a job without having experience” that was the catch 22 of my teen-age years.
Wow – now isn’t that a punch in the stomach!
One might wonder if there is enough sweat equity available in older engineers to spawn a new round of Silicon Valley innovation.
Nagging idea that I haven’t the time to pursue myself for the day: fully automated knitting or crocheting machine capable of producing seamless yarn products, thus cutting out a manual labor step from the production of socks and stocking caps.
These C-whore-Os just don’t get it we don’t need H-1bs and other foreign SCABS in this country. America already has the best and the brightest and we have no need for or obligation to the best of the rest.
I will do everything I can to make your foreign SCABS unwelcome and even scared for their lives.
You, Mr. CFO, and all your C-whore-O buddies are criminals breaking immigration laws and abusing programs that are treasonous in their intent and more so in practice.
May you and all your C-whore-O buddies roast in hell for betraying your companies with sub-standard labor and betraying your employees by displacing them with this scum.
@ Mad…
I sympathize with you to some extent, even agree with you partially. But look at what has been said about who is in American Grad schools! American kids for the most part are to damn lazy to work through the difficult programs.
I have see too many middle class, and tech-class kids cruise through HS, complaining all the way “Oh I can’t do this because the teacher is so horrible.” Granted not every teacher is awe inspiring, or awesomely great, (tho most work very hard in my experience), but parents today will eat that up and let the kids off the hook with murder.
So I am not in complete agreement that we can do without H1Bs in the engineering sector.
Yes, and I’m sure you and a lot like you are going to work for the dark side, sticking it to the corporations and government. The dark side is winning, after all. Karma.
I don’t see what is so hard about just ending the H1B program.
Alternatively (or additionally) stop converting H1B’s to green cards after seven years, and stop allowing green card holders to bring in their families, and get them green cards, ad infinitum.
Gandhi is famous because he drove the British out of India. They were undercutting local merchants. If someone squeals about protectionism, remember that.
Eric
Sorry, no sympathy for your CFO friend. If he is *really* interested in getting the best and brightest, he should be lobbying Washington for this very simple solution:
H1-B visas should automatically convert to a Green Card after 365 days unless a security check fails or the company terminates the holder. The company should be responsible for all costs to finish whatever security check is required and criminally liable if they don’t complete it in time.
This solves the “lack of technical workers” problem quite nicely as it clears the H1-B queue on a regular basis. It also solves the whole “indentured servant” problem of keeping H1-B Visa holders stuck to a company for 5+ years until the visa completes. I’m an engineer, and I have no fear of competing with Green Card holders. Bring ’em in. For every employed engineer you need several more employed engineers in complementary roles.
Funny how this solution never seems to get discussed.
Perhaps this is because the CxO’s are more interested in *cheap* technical workers than they are technical workers.
(This argument also applies to “If technical talent is so scarce and expensive, why aren’t the CxO’s all pushing training like companies used to do?”)
Interesting article… gaming the system is common in both Europe and America: find the person you want and write the job spec to fit that one person. Rinse and repeat. And, of course, it’s also common in project tenders and so on. Nothing new there.
In any case the H1B scheme is way too inflexible, even for the foreign talent (of which I’m one… well, foreign anyway, talented is a matter for debate…). With the yearly lottery and about 6 months to dot the t’s and cross the i’s, while several companies and agencies have expressed interest in sponsoring me, I’ve moved on (I work in telecoms) each time within a few weeks of raising the topic.
As an immigrant in the USA in an MS in CS program (I am not Indian) I can say that there are very few American in my area of study. My class is filled with Indians, so much that if you woke up in it you would think you were in some indian city. They speak their vernacular freely in class. A few points I have observed is that the Indians are not exceptionally intelligent students, they simply depend on playing the system and/or hard work. It’s not unusual to be in a project group with a couple of them only to find out none of them can develop a working website but are only familiar with Java. Now, that hard work is what American youths these days lack. I have worked in warehouse environments with intelligent Americans who simply dropped out of school because they were lazy. They’ll tell you things like, “Algebra is hard, I couldn’t do it”. Guess what, Algebra is hard for me too, I worked hard to understand it and get the grades. I do not have a CS undergrad degree, hard work go me up to speed to keep up with MS classes. Classes will be hard, teachers will suck, the American school system works. Put your head down and work it.
I can’t believe nobody has figured out how much these h1b’s and outsourcing played in the financial collapse. I interviewed at Countrywide and the entire tech dept was Pakistani. That goes some ways to explain why there were no warnings about what the company was doing. One of the last times I went to WaMu in California the person I talked to could barely speak English. I was treated like a homeless person by them. A huge percent of the most outrageous loans were made to people from foreign countries. You can see the same thing in the insurance companies. Much of their tech is from h1bs. One of my professors was a key players in tech at Kasier Permanante. Not only was his English poor but he lied on a regular basis. (Not only are the students all foreign but increasing the professors are too.) Of course, AIG and Lehman were both brought down by foreign units that made errors large enough to threaten the whole system. Many of the banks rely on foreign programmers to build and maintain their websites. We’re told that any theft of funds from accounts is through viruses. How can they be so sure of that? Who’s to say that their own tech isn’t stealing it? The foreign tech people don’t go through anything like what Americans go through when being hired. Indeed, it’s impossible to check their background. This is all a bigger threat than any terrorist could possibly dream up. That there’s nothing being done about it shows why we have had these repeated failures, that they’re sure to happen again, and that our leaders are either totally incompetent or corrupt. At some point it doesn’t matter. Off with their heads.
We let any bedraggled Mexican that can swim the Rio Grand into the country because well …..he will vote democrat…..
………but we won’t let a few technically talented in and they are not inclined to come illegally????
Sorry but I see cognitive dissonance here.
They don’t swim the Rio Grande, it’s only about a foot deep. They walk across. The swimming spot is in San Diego.
It is not that the H1B visa holders are bad people nor are “SOME” of them talented but the fact remains that the US Citizen or green card is equally talented.
I was looking for a job for 7 months and now have one. I had to move a long distance to find a job. All of my interviews in my old place of residence were with foreigners who seemed to only hire other foreigners of the same race. Also the salaries that were being offered were 50% less than what I was making 2 years prior.
The H1B visa program is a disaster. Not only does it displace equally skilled American workers but it depresses the wages. Both of those have been proven over and over. During this time of high unemployment, there is no need for these “shortage” foreign employees. It is time to jail and fine the employers(i.e.- the C class employees). This way they understand what they really have done to the place they live.
BTW most of these H1B visa people are not as skilled as most American workers. In my anecdotal 19 years of experience, outsourcing projects especially to India do not work and end up being fixed by American workers for half the cost and with better performance.
Whether you believe it’s a sham or not, the economic stimulus package DID encourage consumers and companies to do something different, and some of it along lines of a national goal to deal with our massive energy usage and foreign dependencies by encouraging energy efficiency and developing alternative energy sources. Will it cause long-lasting behavioral change? Marginally at the moment, but with potential. They still have some follow-up to do.
What does this have to do with H1B? Companies in the US are relying on foreign workers, and our schools that train the best and the brightest aren’t training US citizens, but foreign workers. The economic stimulus package did create a few jobs, but not really enough of the ones that the US relied upon in the past when we rose to global power.
What we need is a stimulus package and a new law. Bob, I agree with unlimited H1B’s, but instead of mandating more audits and larger fines for abusers, let’s make it a little simpler, and attack on multiple fronts. First, use a sliding scale that increases your payroll taxes the more H1Bs you have. The first 2 percent of H1Bs in your workforce are free, then you start paying extra, and the scale goes up quickly. The extra taxes go into educational grants, small technology business start-ups, and, if needed, paying for H1B audits. Technology companies of that don’t have any H1B’s could get a one-time “bonus”?
Second, US-based universities have a sliding scale as well – certain degree programs (math, engineering, comp sci, sciences) regardless of level will be forced to charge foreign-based students extra and pay into a “development” fund that will be used to give grants to US students going into those programs (across the board) who meet basic qualifications, as well as paying for cooperative programs with K-12 level schools that build up the student’s necessary skills to meet the qualifications and pay for better teaching talent. A university degree program with only foreign-based students would be hit hardest and would have two choices – shut down the program and let the professors go, or beat the bushes for US students willing to go to college for free. A small stimulus package could seed the “development” funds, just to get the ball rolling.
These may not be perfect suggestions, but it’s a start. Getting our children better education, whether there is a job waiting for them or not, is going to pay dividends when those kids start creating new companies.
Supporting news item I recently saw on CNet discussing Green technology in an interview with Bill Ford (of the automaker) is linked/excerpted below. This discusses one way to create some local high-tech jobs.
———————————-
http://news.cnet.com/8301-11128_3-20002512-54.html
Still, there are a number of infrastructure challenges to broad adoption of electric vehicles, biofuels, and hydrogen, which is one of the reasons that the U.S. should create a national energy policy, he said.
Specifically on battery technology, [Bill] Ford said that the U.S. as a country should subsidize domestic auto battery manufacturing, which is predominantly done in Asia right now.
“I do think it’s a defense issue if nothing else, but it’s also really important that we are competitive as a nation in this critical technology. Other countries are supporting it and we should too,” he said.
“You can be a purist and say ‘Hands off, government. Let the companies go at it on their own.’ But that’s not the behavior we’re seeing elsewhere and that will put us at a real competitive disadvantage,” he said.
———————————-
As he implies, it doesn’t do any good to no longer be dependent on foreign oil when you trade that for being dependent on foreign products and labor (both manufacturing and high-tech). This isn’t to say that we shouldn’t be part of a global economy, but we should be self-sufficient enough that our national well-being isn’t adversely affected by other countries and businesses that may be more aggressive and less ethical than whatever standard you think the US sets. OPEC certainly was a good example back in the 70’s. BTW, I’m supportive of a mandatory waiting period for delivery of vehicles that don’t achieve at least 20mpg, regardless of vehicle type or use. Wait 1 month per each MPG under 20 you go.
I think that the stimulus package have helped a lot in restoring the economy. right now we can see some improvements in the economy. right now we can see some improvements in the eco..:
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I have a solution, if all H1bs make $100,000 a year, then make that the minimum salary per law for an H1b. The truth is most H1bs make around $35,000 a year and work at outsourcing body shops. This is a fact and is shown with the actual government stats on the program. But who needs facts and real data. There are a million loop holes in the H1b program to bring in cheap labor.
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But that leaves us with a bigger problem
If our kids will not have high paying jobs to go to after college, then they have no reason to go to college.
If that is true, then that means their wages will be very low, which means that our property values over time will go way down.
Which means that since 70 percent or more of the revenue to run our towns, counties, and states comes from property taxes, our services to our towns, counties, and states will go down (after first going up till nobody can pay the taxes)
After all this is said and done, we have a strengthened communism and sharia law and a very weak democracy.
Is this really where we want to go?