Brett Glass (on the left) runs Lariat, a small wired and wireless Internet Service Provider (ISP) on the prairie in Laramie, Wyoming. Bob Frankston (right) programmed VisiCalc, the first personal computer spreadsheet and for several years worked on home networking issues for Microsoft, somehow without having to move from his beloved Newton, Massachusetts. Two nerds, a decade apart in age yet both vastly experienced, they have completely different views on Net Neutrality. Bob loves it. Brett hates it. Yet coming to understand each man’s position helps us better understand the whole Net Neutrality issue and what really matters.
Net Neutrality discussions usually come down to pitting home users against Comcast, Verizon, or AT&T. The ISP is presented as a bogeyman and a multi-billion-dollar bogeyman at that. It’s easy to oppose big, rich companies that maybe aren’t as attentive to customer service as they ought to be. But what if the ISP is Lariat and the customer service comes straight from the owner? That’s when things start to get interesting.
Brett is trying to get the most bang for his Internet backbone buck, so things like traffic shaping, web proxying, and restricting certain protocols like BitTorrent appeal to Brett because without those policies he’d have higher costs and lousier service for most users. So would Comcast and Verizon, by the way. ISPs large and small generally want to limit their users to certain bandwidth and download caps and don’t like enabling software and media piracy.
Bob Frankston, as an outspoken proponent of Net Neutrality, is really more about outright defeating the telephone and cable companies. He wants to put them out of business. Or, more properly, he wants to put them out of their present business. Bob thinks ISPs should simply be schleppers of bits, not paying the slightest attention to ports, protocols, or applications. In Bob’s ideal world we as individuals would control the copper wires and glass fibers that connect us to the Internet, with the ISP simply standing-by at the utility pole or neighborhood gateway to give or take bits that we’ll transmit at a rate of 100 million per second.
Bob’s concept of the Internet is actually fairly common in the darnedest places, like much of Eastern Europe. In Moscow, readers tell me, there are neighborhoods where you can get a coax connection to the net running at a blazing 100 megabits-per-second. But at the same time the meter is running and you may be paying individually for every one of those hundred million bits.
And this is where the two concepts — Brett’s and Bob’s – differ enough to matter. By calling for the very broadest definition of Net Neutrality it seems to Brett that Bob is trying to put him out of business. Brett identifies with his VoIP telco role. But what Bob proposes would force a change of business model on Brett and all the other ISPs right up to Comcast and Verizon: no more e-mail, McAffee, Net Nanny stuff — just the bits, please. Bob wants to take away everything that Brett sees as making his service charming.
The truth lies somewhere in-between. Business models ARE changing and they always have, though not quickly, in the telecommunications space. Back in 1983 when it divested its locl operating companies, AT&T (a different AT&T, remember, not the current company by that name) was choosing to deliberately abandon local phone service because long-distance made nearly all the profit. So AT&T became a long-distance telephone company, squandered lots of money on cable TV and cellphones, then saw itself implode when long distance became a commodity that’s effectively free for most customers. The AT&T business model changed (from full-service to strictly long-distance) then changed again (from long-distance to bankruptcy).
ISPs big and small are fighting to retain their present business models, which they view as essential to their survival and see threatened by Net Neutrality. They are making good money with the current model and so are loathe to change it. That’s it: they are resisting change, seeing it as bad. Until you get down to the level of Brett Glass trying to make some customer’s VoIP phone work well over a wireless link it’s fear of change that we’re seeing and not much else. Yet change is inevitable as markets grow and mature.
Brett may not be able to survive as a pure schlepper of bits. He sees his added value as bringing connectivity to places where it didn’t exist before. Bob respects that but concentrates on a bigger picture where the virtualization of networks is carried all the way to our property lines.
In the long run Bob Frankston is more correct, though in his zeal he seems to need the current class of big ISPs to die and be replaced. I’m not sure that is really needed, though it might be nice since that would at least end their reactionary lobbying.
Twenty years ago this month the Berlin Wall fell, changing European and Western culture as a result. Within the next 20 years we’ll see a similar revolution in digital networks as distinctions between wired and wireless, Internet and television, voice and data blur to insignificance. I just hope there’s still a role in there for Brett Glass, out on the prairie. I strongly suspect there will be.
It’s been pointed out many times that “net neutrality” legislation places the internet under new federal regulations. For my money, the burden of proof lies with those who say “there oughta be a law”, not with those who say “let the market sort it out”.
I’m with Brett on this one.
-jcr
I agree that the Market is the preferred method of sorting this out. However, the market is already distorted by regulations, which serve as a barrier to the entry of new competitors. All efforts should be towards reducing friction – dream on).
In the meantime, truth in advertising should apply. If an ISP messes with the bits, blocks ports, etc., then he is no longer providing an internet service. In such a case, the service should truthfully be called something else, say America OnLine.
But Brett is part of an oligopoly if not a monopoly. Hence the need for some type of regulation.
I looked into setting up a wireless ISP to serve a remote community and save them the cost of crazy telco bills, but the same telco would be providing me and their fiber terms of use said they could cut me off for competing with them. It’s the same thing they did in the modem days. They put the ma and pa’s out of business by charging them too much for copper.
You can’t let the market sort itself out when the backbone is controlled by the big boys.
Hey Ted: It almost seem like the pipes should be owned by the government to prevent certain abuses. Of course that invites the possibility of other certain abuses.
If the “big boys” are the people who physically installed the copper, then yeah, they should own them.
That would be true if it weren’t for the fact that the US public paid for those “pipes” in the form of tax subsidies. Those are my pipes as much as they are the Telcos.
I have a gripe with your “don’t like enabling software and media piracy”… This week I have been using Spotify (with its underlying P2P architecture) quite a lot and downloading Linux distribution ISOs like crazy. I think Brett, if I was a customer, would hate me just as much as my neighbor who’s been using Bittorrent to download a couple records and a movie. In fact, I’m quite sure he hates me *more*, because what he cares more about is the quality of the service he offers *and* his bottom line (or, at least, I’d expect him to).
I’m as much against piracy as anybody else, but please, let’s not mix things…
Agreed. Too many assume that just because you are using BitTorrent that you must be downloading something you shouldn’t.
Brett always has the option to differentiate on the bandwidth he offers, either dedicated or shared and at different costs. Both offerings can be net neutral and profitable for Brett.
What you’re writing about isn’t about neutrality or the Berlin Wall – it’s about companies trying to make money. When I got on the net you had to pay different rates for access to just email, email and usenet, email and usenet and a web proxy, or access to the whole net. If you want unfiltered Internet access then just pay for it. As long as the ISP makes it clear if you’re paying for filtered or unfiltered, I see no problem here. I thought “Net Neutrality” meant freedom from censorship.
That’s exactly the point. What if Brett decides that he wants to give preference to network material for which he has received “sponsorship”. Is it ethical to make the delivery of NBC programming faster than that of HBO programming because NBC paid Brett money to do so? Stuff like this happens all the time, and this is the sort of behavior that has to be stopped.
This sort of favoritism will manifest itself in a tiered pricing structure, too. If you are allowed only so much bandwidth amount at the pricing point that you can afford, then you will modify your behavior accordingly. You might, for example, get your entertainment in the most compressed format, thus making HD content less favorable.
So, the problem arises: whom do you trust? The telecom industry, or the government? Given the fact that the telecom industry has held back progress in broadband in order to preserve its profits, and has used the problem of illegal file sharing as an excuse to create a system in which it dictates what we consume, we are only left with the government.
Please don’t fall back on the lame excuse that “competition” and the “marketplace” will fix everything. There is no competition and no marketplace in broadband. That’s why we are all stuck with the worst slowest service and lowest standards in the industrialized world.
The problem I see is in defining what “net neutrality” really means, and in some ways it’s starting to look like pornography – “You know it when you see it.” I think we can agree that packet discrimination based on source or destination IP is NOT net-neutral. When I think in favor of net neutrality, I think of ISPs who are also content or VOIP providers wanting to favor their own content or VOIP over third parties.
I can’t necessarily argue against traffic or packet shaping, when the pipes are full. Timely movement of some packets simply is more important than others, and I understand that those VOIP packets need quicker transit than my Gentoo Linux source code downloads. On the other hand, to be against shaping implies that the pipes have to be so big that they’re never full, and I kind of like that idea, though think it unlikely and impractical.
As for pay-by-packet, I can see that too, just let the marketplace work to give me low prices. Also if you’re going to do that, I’d like some credit for working smart, and for instance using cron jobs to move my aforementioned source code downloads to the wee hours of the morning, or give me some idea of off-peak times so I can be a good netizen. Or give me some sort of bulk-rate, where I’ll take slow-for-cheap. (Like “fsp” was supposed to be, before it unfortunately got too closely associated with warez.)
Nor do I want the packet rates to be different for ISP content vs 3rd-party content. Ideally the pipes should be pipes, and if an ISP wants to be in the content business there should be some sort of legal Chinese Wall.
I wish before we started net neutrality legislation, we’d come up wit some agreement as to exactly what we’re talking about.
This is much how I feel. I have a good idea of what “net neutrality” I want, but I’m quite unsure whether it is the same “net neutrality” other people are arguing about, or whether the two participants in a single argument have the same understanding.
What I want is that I decide which of my bits go first class, and which go third class. The source/destination of those bits and the protocol they are sent over should not matter unless I decide they should matter. In turn, the ISP should provide tools and pricing options to encourage me to behave in ways that minimize their costs.
For example: a plan which allows 2Gb per month during peak times, 20Gb per month off-peak, throttling to 10% of full speed if the monthly allocation is exceeded. Or an option of for the same price as a 10Gb per month plan, I can have 5Gb normal traffic and 30Gb p2p traffic if I agree to allow the ISP to throttle or block P2P protocols during peak times.
Ideally I’d have fine-grained control: right now, I’m prepared to pay first class rates for my bittorrent download because I really need to get Linux on my new laptop, but tomorrow I’m downloading anime fansubs and those bits can go third class. I don’t think the infrastructure is there yet to allow this, but I hope in a few years it will be.
If the ISPs offer all the bits you can pull through the pipe for a flat rate per month, they shouldn’t blame anyone but themselves when people try to pull as many bits as they can, including during peak times. Letting the ISP secretly and unilaterally pick which bits go through and which don’t is not the correct answer.
This model is already proven to work in VOIP. In some situations I pay a premium to get first-class routing on my packets, in others I go for ‘value’ routing, which is usually just as good.
Meanwhile VOIP is paid by-the-bit (or by the minute, or packet, same difference) and the market has ferociously beaten down the price of VOIP packets. The only caveat where will be where a local operator has a government-granted monopoly.
Please, bill me for what I use and give me what I want.
I don’t know anything about internet in the US but this sounds really bad.
Here in Switzerland we have flat rates for everybody on every port and when ever you want and always on full speed. Anything else would be a rip off in my eyes.
I myself have 5 Mbit line but could get 100 Mbit for about 40 $ extra a month. How ever some regions do not have glass fibre yet and no cable TV so they have a 10 Mbit cap/line.
Why would we have to make everything so complicated? Just build the lines where needed. And in Switzerland the ISPs seem to be able to do so without big government founding.
List up folks! — Thomas is making the “majority of American’s” argument. Most of the people reading this site understand the subtle ways of the network, bandwidth utilization, shaping and packet ids. Most American’s – and to be fair most people, want something that is easy to understand.
They want to know that if they pay $29,95 a month they can get phone, and Internet and waffles. Flat rate pricing is what drove cell phone usage and what saved wire phones. (It’s 6 cents a minute to a town 12 miles away and 3 cents to a start 1500 miles away?) People want simple.
However, and again thank cell phones, people are used to over the limit fees. The difference is I have no way of knowing I am “running out of megabytes” and have 3 days left until the end of the month.
Add to the browser a means to see the megabytes ticking away and people will start shaping their own traffic. Better, they will force large producers of content to come up with smarter ways to provide information. How many people hit CCC or Fox or some other network site yesterday while the shooting was going on? How many went there and sat on the video stream – even while they went somewhere else. Have the clock ticking and that will stop. (I cannot call China, walk away from the phone down and expect it not to count against my minutes)
Then Brett can offer better service by offering tiers of support for throughput. Now we can look at the cable companies as an example. What premium (100 mps) lines? No problem – an extra $40/month and it is yours. Or download those iso files at 2am and we charge your “megs” half for off hours.
Finally someone mentioned net neutrality was a freedom of speech issue and this does not sound like one. But it is. If I own all the media outlets, and can control who reaches you (note the distinction) then I can Wal-Mart the content owners – drive the price down or if I see something written about me I don’t like, change my pricing scheme for your company to price you out of the market.
What about for the people who get unlimited broadband from their cable company as the standard and have so for 10 years? I live in the NY metro area and I never hear of this debate or hear the cable companies complaining about having to cap limits to service because the network is jammed, and this is NYC.
I think we need to be careful about what these telcos are saying and what they want. There are some telcos out there, I believe that use this, pay more for more service, just to increase bottom line, not for quality of service.
Is it fair to say that countries like South Korea an Japan have built pipes so thick that they’re never full? If yes, then why can’t we?
If the bandwidth that the ISPs can provide is really limited, then all they have to do is to either charge per megabyte or set a cap. The problem that the ISPs have with that is that they cannot offer such a service as being flat-rate or unlimited. Restricting sites and content allows them to stretch the definition of flat-rate and mislead their customers.
The ISP’s opposition to net neutrality therefore has nothing to do with technology or quality of service and is all about marketing. To put it another way, it’s a con job.
Usual good work, Bob. But one issue that’s often overlooked involves P2P programs that have it built into their DNA to keep seeding (i.e., expanding) to improve their delivery efficiency. But inevitably, especially on shared node systems, that becomes a serious issue. Hence, at least in that situation, it seems reasonable for an ISP to “discriminate” against that P2P. The problem then becomes how you write legally enforceable regulations that allow for this but disallow other actions.
My hunch: A lot of lobbyists in DC will earn enough for summer beach homes while the courts & FCC spend years sorting this out.
Net Neutrality is yet another buzz word that allows advocates to obfuscate their politics. Whether it be via licensed spectrum or installed fiber optic lines the company that owns the pipe has to be free to manage what goes through it. That is the essence of property law and it is the economic model that has proven to best align the interests of consumers with suppliers.
Either we have a system where terms of service are negotiated in the open and guided by the demands of the market or we have a system where bureaucrats and lobbyists play favorites behind closed doors. I’ll take the former approach any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Why would anyone want to subject technology development to the whims of bureaucrats?
It is really sad that a technology industry that once was the epitome of free market enterprise is now willing to soil itself by bedding down with Washington insiders. Just one more reason to expect the next technology revolution to come from someplace other than Silicon Valley.
“When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators.”
P. J. O’Rourke
Well said. Not sure why the electorate can’t understand such a simple concept. Start regulating things and suddenly you have a bunch of lobbyists hanging around.
Or conversely, when buying and selling are controlled by a small cadre of brokers (service providers)…
“Let me put it this way, he is the broker and you is the brokee.”
Lobbyist will always be around. But do you really want a company like Comcast running the internet?
Oh? Really? So Electric companies have the right to disconnect you because you don’t use enough juice or because you are using their electricity to build wind turbines to get people off the grid? No of course they can’t because utilities are a sanctioned form of monopoly with no property rights because they are capitalizing PUBLIC PROPERTY. So the matter is really is the internet a public protocol or the private property of a few media conglomerates (when reduced a bit too far to show the absurdity). Net Neutrality is really the recognition of ISP’s as utility class monopolies at least under current regulations. These regulations could change in the future but I doubt it. Nothing about net neutrality means that the operators can’t add value, think about electric companies installing smart meters rather it means they can’t stifle certain kinds of competition.
Yeah, I wish. Try to get pole space on your electric company’s poles for your local Internet co-op.
That’s not a fair comparison. Last time I looked, the utilities were monopolies, which is why they are – and should be – regulated.
The people own the pipes in the same sense that they own the airwaves and the telephone/power poles. It’s a right of way access issue. All means of communication are limited by the bandwidth and access issues (except telepathy). Hence the need for government regulation of a limited number of service providers.
Telepathy is zero-latency, not infinite bandwidth.
I was pro-Net Neutrality until I realized it would involve more government bureaucracy to enforce the neutrality. Bob’s position sounds great from a freedom perspective, but that’s not what I see being proposed to actually happen.
Well, the problem is we either need Net neutrality so everyone is equal, or ISP transparency, so we know what we’re buying. The “free market” only works when the buyers can fairly compare competitive offerings. When ISPs cap data on service plans that are supposedly “unlimited”, we don’t get what we paid for.
So either way, there is going to be more government regulation. I don’t know about more government bureaucracy. The FCC already exists.
Well, said, Brendan. Customers hate caps and per-meg pricing (even if they are light users), and ISPs hate the small percentage of users who are super-heavy users. ISPs want to have it both ways and see stopping net neutrality as their solution.
In order to ensure maximum value to the customer, somebody or some-thing has to control the entirely rational effort of a company to maximize profits at the customer’s expense. Normally, we depend on the some-thing, the free market, with many buyers and sellers creating competition. However, telecommunications delivery is reasonably close to a natural monopoly. At best it is an oligopoly, with a very few sellers in any given market. When you have that situation, the ‘free’ market fails. Businesses act to ensure their profits, unconstrained by competition, by doing things like slowing down their competitor’s bits, competitors who paid for free use of the pipe just like everyone else. There are laws against anti-competitive behavior, but they have to be enforced.
So, in this area, we are going to be governed by a bureaucracy, whether we like it or not. Take your pick (1) big government enforcing net neutrality laws, (2) big government enforcing anti-monopoly laws, (3) big telcos making arbitrary decisions aimed solely at taking our money.
Doesn’t have to net neutrality, though. Net transparency would work fine. At a minimum ISPs should be required to provide to consumers prior to purchase:
– Rated (maximum/typical) download speed.
– Rated (maximum/typical) upload speed.
– Any data metering limits and the consequences (cut-off/additional fees/etc.) of going over the limit.
-Any discounts or penalties based on time of day the service is used (free weekends, peak time charges, etc.)
-Any traffic shaping being done, whether based on protocol, content provider or whatever.
The big piece of net neutrality I think is actually needed is:
-No forged packets (for example: where the ISP sends fake packets to both ends of a connection saying the other end reset the connection.). This should be prosecutable under computer fraud and abuse act as unlawful interference in communication.
One big concern I have is for content+ISP companies to circumvent net neutrality, all they have to do is invent a proprietary protocol and then “shape traffic” to give priority to that protocol.
I think the term “net neutrality” is at the center of the problem. It is divisive and misleads one from its purpose.
Bits are not free. Connections to the Internet backbone are quite expensive. An ISP is a business and they are faced with the simple business challenge of getting the most they can out of an expensive resource.
Lets look at this using a different business. I am allowed to park my car next to a gas pump for a limited amount of time — enough time to refuel my car, pay for the gas, buy a snack, and if needed, go to the bathroom. If my car is parked next to the pump for 15 minutes, no one will care. If my car is blocking the pump for over an hour and preventing others from buying gas, that is a problem. Legally, the station can have my car towed away, at my expense. To a filling station, the number of pumps is an expensive and scarce resource. They have to get the most value out of them they can.
How does an ISP get the most value out of their scarce resource?
In my pump analogy, if it is 3AM, I could be the only customer of the gas station for an hour. Leaving my car at the pump for an hour would not be a business problem to the station.
The ISP should be allowed to constrain resources during peak times. I don’t like the “monthly allocation” schemes because they do not address the specific nature of the problem. The problem is allocating bandwidth during peak times.
Back to my pump analogy, if there is a line of cars waiting to get gas. If an emergency vehicle arrived and needed to get gas fast, we’d let them cut in line. I’d gladly wait a few extra minutes so that an emergency crew can keep their equipment working to save someone’s life or home. I’d expect the same if I was in trouble.
My problems with ISP’s limiting bandwidth is it needs to be selective. There are a few critical services (ports) that must operate well at all times — one’s telephone for example. If my ISP offers phone service, they can not impede the phone service I would get from another firm. All telephone services (ports) must get priority bandwidth (QoS) regardless of the circumstances. There are a few other services (ports) that need to be given priority attention.
If the ISP’s would agree to provide QoS to all critical internet traffic, we probably would not be having this discussion. My ISP for a year or so constrained Vonage traffic, a competitor. They eventually figured out it was not a good thing to do and stopped.
It would be reasonable for ISP’s to be allowed to limit the bandwidth during peak times of high traffic, non-critical services — eg bit torrent. BUT — the ISP has to have enough bandwidth to cover their normal traffic during peak times. If they do not have enough bandwidth to cover http, email, and a few other services — they need to fix that. There should be agreements in place that do not allow an ISP to over subscribe their service to the point it becomes unusable. While this seems like an obvious thing — to make an extra dollar, firms will occasionally do very stupid things.
Personally, I’d like to see more emphasis put on reducing the cost of the Internet backbone connections. I’d also like to see things done to bring more bandwidth to my house less expensively.
It would be nice to live in a perfect world where there is unlimited bandwidth. But simple economics makes that impractical. Simple economics offers principles on how to allocate scarce resources. What is needed are some rules that protect the consumer.
Lose the term “Net Neutrality” and lets do the job right.
How about “net transparency”. The biggest underlying issue is that (some) ISPs sold “unlimited” service and then started traffic shaping, throttling, forging packets and otherwise putting limits on the unlimited service.
If people knew they were only getting up to 50 GB/month with the upload speed at 1/10th of the advertised download speed, they could make an informed decision. As things stand now, there are a limited number of sellers in the market, and they are hiding information from the buyers. So buyers think that for their $40-50 a month they are getting more than they are actually getting.
I wondered whatever happened to Brett Glass – he was one of the biggest GPL haters around. IIRC, he was big on the BSD type license so he could grab someones code and stick it into his proprietary product.
The big concern with net neutrality really comes from the fact that ISP’s charge their customers for services which are available via the internet at competing prices and sometimes freely available. This conflict is increasing as Cable companies start to offer telephony services and phone companies offer video services. Net neutrality is intended (or should intend) to keep the ISP’s from prioritizing their service traffic over a competing service’s traffic of the same type.
– Comcast offers VoIP services which competes with such things as Skype, Vonage, MagicJack, etc. Net neutrality would state that Comcast can’t impede your VoIP services while using your PAID FOR data access while prioritizing and enhancing theirs. This is a problem in Canada where the ISP’s kill off Skype VoIP sessions after a period of time because it competes with their offered services..
– Comcast offers video services (their primary service offering). People are happily downloading and streaming video content which competes with Comcast. Once again, net neutrality would prevent Comcast from blocking or seriously degrading such content which you are accessing via your paid data service.
– Peer-2-peer sharing has long been tagged as the protocol which only thieves use to get their free movies, shows and music off the internet however P2P protocols are also very heavily used to download and distribute content which is not illegal. Net neutrality would ensure that ISP’s don’t restrict or kill off such protocols due to influence by groups such as the RIAA and MPAA.
Bob has discussed these points previously. Net neutrality is badly needed otherwise innovation will be stifled by ISP’s as they silence new services which they suddenly want to monetize. The internet is the future for all of our communication, socialization and education and this needs to be protected. It is really becoming to our civilization as water was to ancient civilizations.. a necessity, not a luxury.
John, I agree that if something is clogging the internet traffic at any given time, then priority should be given to as many users as possible. I assume that this could be done by giving priority to small isolated packets, which would help with e-mail, speech (including VOIP) and even gamers who use their internet connection mainly to send and receive commands (and not large bitmaps or video). If this is as far as the traffic shaping goes, then it would be barely noticable to anyone, except for an occasional delay for the heavy bandwidth users.
The problem is that ISPs might not want to shape traffic just for these benevolent purposes but also to throttle the traffic at times when there is plenty of spare bandwidth available.
I don’t like the expression “net neutrality” either simply because it does not accurately describe the problems that it supposed to address, but I guess we’re stuck with it until someone comes up with a better expression.
I regularly take a look at my families Internet usage. It is important to note we do not download video’s, or do the bit-torrent thing. That said, over 90% of our bandwidth is consumed by advertisements! After I set up blocking rules against the big offenders my bandwidth usage drops considerably.
When it is the popular websites and their advertisers that put a big load on an ISP’s Internet connection — who should pay? While advertising helps pay for the website, no one is paying my ISP for the resources the ads are consuming.
If an ISP limited the bandwidth to a select set of advertising services, they could easily double their effective bandwidth, user’s web requests would load faster, ….
I am sure as many “good” ideas we can find some major websites and ISP’s will find a way to pervert things to their benefit.
Maybe we’re working on the wrong assumption — are the users really the cause of the problem?
Bob,
I mean no disrespect to Mr. Glass when I point out that you have used him as a complete red herring.
The net-neutrality debate is not to any degree about economics. It is exclusively about censorship.
It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind
The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
“God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!”
Net-Neutrality became a hot issue when ISPs (aka the local tels) said they wanted to charge business (like Google and Apple) for the privilege of their fast lane. What they really wanted was to have their own search engine, video site, and music download service, and to use their ability to “packet shape” the network to keep competitors out.
If iTunes and Google took forever to download, people would shift their business to the local ISP’s sites. Remember, we’re talking about Verizon which once had BlueTooth disabled on their cell phones, so people couldn’t download MP3s for ring tones or upload photos taken by their phones to Flickr without paying Verizon $3.00 per time for the privilege.
My feeling is that the government should simply make sure that the pipes, the ISP, and the content provider are separate businesses. Then ISPs can do all the content shaping they want because there would be lots of ISP competition. If my ISP is blocking bit-torrent and that’s important for me, I could find another ISP. Plus, I know the ISP wouldn’t be pushing their content over competitors because there wouldn’t be any.
I’d suggest the same for cable TV too: Make up your minds TimeWarner, do you want to be a content provider, provide the pipes, or be a cable TV package provider? You can’t be all three.
[…] Brett Versus Bob: Taking Net Neutrality Personally (tags: netneutrality) […]
I understand the desire to make the pipes a public utility. This sounds great in theory but a lot of details need to be worked out. For one, Verizon has spent billions laying fiber optic cable. How do they recoup the cost? And if the pipes are deemed community property who is going to be willing to invest in new and better pipes?
Then there is the question of whether light Internet users are expected to subsidize heavy Internet users by having all users pay the same fee to use the pipes.
I say trust the market. With FIOS Verizon has demonstrated that one can install proprietary pipes. If Comcast is not your choice then try Verizon. And if Verizon does not suit you than consider a wireless solution. And if you really want to use Verizon but they are blocking the service you want then negotiate. What prevents a VOIP provider from going to Verizon and reaching a win-win settlement?
It is human nature to want something for nothing but it is also human nature to not want to give it. The Net Neutrality folks want something for nothing and it should be understandable why those who have what they want do not want to give it.
They recouped the cost with taxpayer dollars paid during the Clinton administration.
But apart from that, just re-establishing the law to force the owners of the pipes to provide capacity to their competitors at wholesale rates would allow the big telcos to recover investment while improving cost and quality of service provided to consumers.
One pricing model might be that everyone pays for what they upload, but downloads are free. This is roughly analogous to the old pricing model for land-line long distance calls, where the caller paid per-minute charges.
So if I click on a simple home-owned website, the webhost gets charged for uploading about 100kb and passes that cost on to the website owner. And I pay the ISP for the 1-2kb of packets that were in my HTTP request (or they get rolled into my monthly upload cap). If I click on an advertisement laden site, I probably have to send more packets to retrieve the pieces (say 10k), but the website ends up paying for the 2-5 MB that the ads contain. And if I join a peer network for file transfers or do telecommuting where I do desktop sharing, I’ll be paying big bucks for either an unlimited plan or for the upload usage.
As your comments so far show, everyone has a different idea of what NN means.
For those who favor it, the assumption is that once defines by the FCC NN will be a good thing (as defined in various ways). As with healthcare, the concerns are often apocryphal rather than generic: “I had a botched back surgery once and public healthcare will prevent that from ever happening again!”… “My ISP is often slow and goes down a lot, Network Neutrality will fix that for good!”.
For those who oppose Network Neutrality, the concerns are less about specific abuses (since NN doesn’t exist there haven’t been any yet), but about bad things that MIGHT happen.
One thing that is for sure, once the FCC gets into the business of enforcing Network Neutrality, as seems almost inevitable now, there will be endless debate about what they should and shouldn’t be doing, and small companies, or individuals who are not a part of some “collective” will disappear in importance from the radar screen.
The results of NN may please or displease us in various ways, but from the end of the “rule making” process and forward, complaining about the results for any of us commenting here will be about as productive as complaining about the dreck coming out of Hollywood, or the lack of anything interesting to watch on TV. Translation: we will turn the Internet into a relatively static technology that will be more influenced by government tinkering than by the technology itself. The only way to “fix” anything from that point forward will be a paradigm shift to something that doesn’t fall under the same innovation-preventing controls.
But why debate it now. It’s a done deal. Once a control freak ascends to power at the FCC, there will a new building full of government employees who can’t be fired and have generous retirement benefits. there really is no going back at this point, and for those of us who are opponents, there is only the modest satisfaction of being able to say “I told you so” in a few years. We might as well move on to other subjects in the mean time.
The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, “Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me ’tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!”
macbeach wrote, “small companies, or individuals who are not a part of some ‘collective’ will disappear in importance from the radar screen.”
This is precisely the problem with regulation and bureaucratic oversight. It allows incumbent companies to snuff out competitors before they even get started. In a deregulated market an upstart company can negotiate directly with a key supplier and work out a deal that is advantageous to its interests. In a regulated market the upstart never gets a chance because multiple approvals are required and an incumbent competitor to the upstart can use its lobbying muscle to nullify any agreement.
Net Neutrality will be a boon to Google. Will it be a boon to your brother’s startup? Probably not.
Once again, Dan, you nailed it. Nice to see there are still some free-minded individuals who support an unregulated market.
Net Neutrality is just a cover for misguided freedom. To demand the right (because I pay for it) to have any packet sent/received uninhibited by any policy is an oversimplification of the issue.
Here is the crux of the problem after observing what other analogs apply if ISPs just schelp around bits, which is like saying the post office schleps around packages.
Nobody can “ship” just anything via the U.S. Postal Services or Fedex or Less than Truck Freight or cellphone or land line.
1) Of course Large bases of high quantities must be considered separate from the normal traffic – ie the invention of the PO Box and bulk rates, do not call lists etc.
2) One can not sent prohibited and illegal materials either over these services riskfree. This is a legislated not a logistical prohibition. your contents could be inspected and you will be held liable to the sovereignty and polity of the nation you trade with and live inside.
The truth is ISP’s is where the Law first goes to wiretap and to dragnet not just for big criminals like terrorists. It is where they are going to find the patterns which will give police and law enforcement leads to the smaller mafia rings dealing in stolen software, non paid for content (pictures, movies, tv, audio), all the money laundering micro-transactions and fencing. The white slavery and child prostitution and other “offensive” things to human culture are churned up in this as well.
My quick survey says some who are pro-net Neutrality want to keep the content from services like bit-torrents, P2P, Alt.bin, and streaming entertainment sites private from their families/spouses/society. Others just do it for the principle that I pay for X bandwidth I should get X bandwidth. Not to imply its illegal content but just some home made movies or clips permitted under fair use or somebody’s popular homebrew level of game X or whatever that causes a “spike” in usage.
Both of these should be valid reasons but have a limited user base as the consumer market really needs to
1) pass the cost of spam back to the producer
2) improve protection against cyber criminal activity
Both of these will require an ISP with policy controls to enter the internet and gives a way for the ISP to cooperate with the public interest to stop spammers economically and build up legal cases against criminals by logs, packet inspection and not leaving them a place to operate unless collusion with a corrupt ISP
I’ve yet to hear non IT people really host out of their house game servers w/ teamspeak or have a dedicated smtp service. They might possibly a small Web Server +Database that allows them to get back to their home machine. But really that ought to be moved into the cloud for security reasons and cost.
However the ISPs also must allow free market forces to operate. When will the iPhone be untethered from AT&T? When will WiFi be allowed to flourish? If Im on a plane with wifi, why should I pay for movies if I have a collection in the cloud?
There has to be a balance somewhere in between.
See, that’s the problem. You say there has to be a balance. Bull hockey! If it isn’t your capital that was risked then what gives you the right to dictate to ATT how they operate? Go start your own ISP!
I can’t understand the mentality in this country to dictate to companies how they will operate all in the name of freedom. Capitalism has given the U.S. the greatest prosperity on the face of the planet because it was guaranteed in the Constitution. Want to know why other countries live in despair and poverty? Because they don’t have our Constitution and their dictators don’t want to provide it for them. It has nothing to do with geography or climate.
It’s easy to sit back and “Monday morning quarterback” what the direction of regulation should be when you have NOTHING invested. Try starting your own ISP and get back with us.
“Bull hockey! If it isn’t your capital that was risked then what gives you the right to dictate to ATT how they operate? Go start your own ISP!”
Well, because we are talking about a service provider like this which is equal to phone or television, and some might say electricity at this point. There needs to be some kind of regulation or else it will be like people who buy and smoke cigarettes and end up paying the same company for the health treatment they need because they bought and smoked the cigarettes in the first place. Yes it is an extreme example but this gives an idea of twisted capitalism.
Basically it comes down to how many times do I have to pay companies for the same service?
“Capitalism has given the U.S. the greatest prosperity on the face of the planet because it was guaranteed in the Constitution”
And at what price do we pay for that “greatest prosperity on earth” I will ask? This will certainly go off topic so I won’t say much more. Health care issues and the unbelievable high rate of violence in this country leave a lot to be desired. Let the companies do their thing and then what are they like? Little governments. Making all the rules at the cost to “greater society”. All in the name of making a dollar at the cost to the rest of society. This is the great dilemma in America. Some of the consequences can be extreme others not so, but I believe there needs to be a system of check and balances…
“Want to know why other countries live in despair and poverty? Because they don’t have our Constitution and their dictators don’t want to provide it for them. ”
The United States of America may be the “Greatest Country on Earth” as it is often said, but lets be realistic, It is still a democracy at least in theory.
Speaking of investments. . .Seems to me I have a right in the “free market” to know exactly what I’m getting for my $40-50 a month I pay my ISP.
The ISP should either be required to provide the “unlimited” service that was advertised or to document exactly what limitations there are on my usage. Otherwise it’s either false advertising or a deleterious change to the terms of my contract with them.
And forging packets to short-circuit peer traffic should be treated just like forgery in real life.
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a snake!”
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The only reason the Internet exists as we see it today is because of net neutrality. Imagine if there were ISPs restricting bandwidth of HTTP connections when they first appeared, because they were bandwidth hogs compared to gopher and SMTP?
Without net neutrality, the Internet can never evolve, as anything that becomes popular — and drives up bandwidth — will instantly be blocked or slowed, and there’s nothing one can do about it.
As for not being able to survive with net neutrality… how could all these companies survive BEFORE traffic shapers became viable and affordable?
Let’s see if we can come up with a solution that doesn’t include the FCC or any other regulating agency.
I doubt it.
All the incentives are skewed towards shaping traffic to throttle the bandwidth which isn’t monetized.
An example:
With companies like Netflix signaling that their future is streaming movies instead of sending DVDs via the U.S. Mail – and Netflix’s competitors trying to get there ahead of them – are Comcast & Verizon just going to sit-back and let Netflix et. al. lure customers away their own pay-per-view offerings?
I doubt it.
I think we need net transparency more than we need net neutrality. If Brett’s margins are such that the difference between traffic shaping and not is the difference between profit and bankruptcy, then he as a business owner should be able to chhose what service he offers, and at what price. But his potential customers should have full disclosure.
In a perfect world, every ISP would have a standard URL (like ispname.com/termsofservice) which contained the following information:
Nominal download speed (Mbps)
Nominal upload speed (Mbps)
Usage limits if any, in MB/Month
List of packets, protocols, or ports given preferential treatment
List of packets, protocols, or ports given low-priority treatment
List of packets, protocols, or ports capped, in MB/month
List of packets, protocols, or ports blocked
Fee vs. nominal service schedule. Users should not have to pay 100% of their
monthly bill if ISP does not deliver nominal speed 100% of the time.
Percent nominal service uptime for uploads, current month
Percent nominal service uptime for downloads, current month
ISPs can shape traffic any way they want. Informed consumers can choose the ISP that gives them the service they want.
That is what I would like to see.
I am tired of companies who started-out as regulated monopolies [cable TV & telephone] trying to leverage their ISP status into a cash cow, rather than providing a “commodity” – i.e. bandwidth.
I can understand their desire to get a piece of the action, but I dislike their behind-the-scenes attempts at “shaping” my bandwidth.
If Comcast is billing me for “up to” 6Mbps, but will only allow me that speed when accessing content they take a cut from – then they should have to spell it out to me in the contract I sign. Not leave me to wonder why my bandwidth is so variable.
It doesn’t help that ISPs complain about how much bandwidth people are using, when they often raise the rated speeds of the connection to stave-off competitors.
Don’t raise my speeds from 1.5Mbps to 3MBps to 6Mbps, and then complain when I use that bandwidth!
If your network can’t support it, why do you trumpet its availablity??
The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
“What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain,” quoth he;
” ‘Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!”
If the bandwidth of an ISP is a limited resource then why don’t they just charge their users for the amount of data they send/receive. No need to discriminate on what type of data. Isn’t this the fairest way?
And as for the idea of trying to charge companies like Google whenever a customer of the ISP uses a Google service, that is just silly. After all, the only reason the customer has signed up with an ISP in the first place is so they can access services such as Google.
One of the key problems with Net Neutrality is that assumes that the end user is competent, capable and interested in how they use the network. Net Neutrality has a flip side – to make it fair you need to charge in proportion to costs. Users who are not competent, capable and interested are actually protected by shaping and more intrusive techniques from large bills.
Let me give an example of a business customer who was on a pay by the byte contract. No filtering or other limits were placed on their usage; but then one of their staff installed a P2P client and suddenly their usage went through the roof (and so did their charges). Monitoring by us (the ISP) indicated that they were spiking their usage and we spent over a week trying to contact them to ask if they knew what was happening – they just were not interested … until the bill arrived. And suddenly it becomes the ISP’s problem. The purchaser did not have any monitoring on their equipment, so we had to produce a record of the flows – diagnose the problem. Deal with management who could only see a large bill and naturally did not want to pay – when we desperately trying to stop them incurring another by getting someone technical there to stop the problem.
With freedom comes responsibility.
Oh, I’m reading this column from the “darnedest of places”, then. I also pay $20 per month for my 10 mbps internet pipe.
Eric Raymond wrote the best analysis I’ve seen of this telco mess, though I think open fiber networks are the solution rather than his wireless suggestion.
There are two issues here. Firstly ISPs have sold their service as unlimited and then we customers find out that it is in fact limited or not always the bandwidth that we were promised. If the ISPs were honest about describing the service that they were selling and described it completely, there would be no ground for complaints.
Secondly, I believe the issue for providing QOS is that some users create large numbers of connections and that the TCP/IP traffic management algorithms tends to favor them in the aggregate over “regular” users who only create a small number of connections. The solution to this problem is to limit the number of simultaneous connections.
Thus if an ISP could offer unlimited download, bandwidth X and only Y simultaneous connections, we would get a simple to understand contract that would give all customers decent QOS.
A world without net neutrality regulations would be disastrous for consumers: We would have to rely on businesses to do the right thing and police themselves. Time and time again, big business has proven it is incapable of this. In this respect, the communications industry is no different than the banking, the stock market or enegry industries, the industrial military complex, health care or hundreds of other specialized businesses.
Can anyone honestly say that big business should not be legislated and regulated? About the only thing more problematic than self-policing businesses is the notion that we have to rely on lobbyist-compromised politician-legislators to remedy this. But rely on them we must.
Comcast is just one example of a communications business that cannot be trusted. Already, Brian Roberts and his arrogant crew have tried to manipulate the bits, manipulate competing businesses, manipulate public opinion, manipulate government agencies, manipulate legislators and manipulate its own customers, all to maintain an old business model rooted in the past. Worse, Comcast got caught doing all this.
When Comcast should have been investing to expand its cable infrastructure and bandwidth to prepare for HDTV and an Internet that would become far more complex than text-based Web pages, the greedy Roberts instead raised rates annually and made a decision to use the extra cash to expand his customer base and income by adding telephone services. Now, the company doesn’t have adequate cable bandwidth to serve both its existing cable TV and Internet customer base or fully compete with satellite services. Consequently, Roberts wants to change the terms on existing customers. What was once sold as a fast, unlimited Internet service is now being passed off as a slow, capped, and higher cost Internet service. What was once a pretty good cable TV service has become a low quality, high-priced service with limited HDTV programming.
Comcast and other ISPs hate net neutrality because it exposes their bad business decisions and their lack of vision and preparation for a day when more bandwidth would be needed. They now can foresee the chilling day when their company may not be able to compete with more forward-thinking companies like Apple, Inc.
Well, that day is nearly upon us and Comcast and other ISPs should no longer be allowed to manipulate the new communications world.
Net neutrality may be a sad necessity, but a necessity it is.
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: “E’en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!”
I am certainly in favor of Net Neutrality laws.
Internet access is really at the point of a required utility for many of us, along the lines of electricity, gas, water, etc.
They should be “dumb pipes” that simply carry whatever traffic the user requests.
Now as a trade off, I am willing to accept a pay per use model, just like every other utility out there. If I choose to use twice as much electricity one month, I pay twice as much.
As much as I would like to have it both ways, unlimited, net neutral access seems very unlikely for the time being. To me, the more important piece of the puzzle is the freedom to choose whatever packets I want to send/receive.
Getting that in place is the key, as competition, new technology and infrastructure investments, should bring down the pricing in the long run.
One problem I’ve seen overlooked by most in this debate over “Net Neutrality”
and subsequent “pay-per-bit” comments is what do you do about the spam
and other unwanted bits that come down the “open pipeline” via your ISP?
If you pay by the amount of bandwidth used, you just payed for receiving
junk. If the USPS delivered junk mail with “postage due”, the populace would
probably riot. Until such time as ISPs feel some pressure from users to
implement some sort of filter on all the junk, I’d just rather not have to pay to
receive all that junk. It shouldn’t be up to me to install “filters”, antispam,
or implement “rules” in my email client, because by the time the offending
garbage gets to my filters, it would already have gone through the ISPs meter
and billed to my pay-per-use. If I can setup filters and other tools to sort through
the spam and junk I receive on my end, it should be fairly simple for some so-called “IT Pro” to install and maintain something at the ISPs server. Over 90 percent of the email I receive is spam, most of it I can’t read since I do not read Cryllic languages, Japanese nor Chinese…but at least that makes setting up filters a bit easier!
That being said, I can understand mosts ISPs problems with Net Neutrality. If the ISP has a few users consuming vast amounts of available bandwidth, it could lead to a tense day in the customer service department dealing with complaints of slower than expected speeds from the rest of their users. So perhaps some compromise should be worked out between the ISP and the “bandwidth hogs”. Many ISPs offer “consumer, residential” rates as well as “business, commercial” rates, with different levels of available bandwidth. ISPs can already measure how much a particular connection is using, and after maybe a couple of attempts to contact the subscriber, if no response for “upgrade” offers, throttle their P2P, file sharing, video piracy or whatever back. When they notice their connection speed is little more than 56k dialup, they’ll call! Once the explicatives and name calling have passed, the ISP might be able to explain why the speed was reduced, and when it might be returning to “normal”, and warn them against future overuse of the residential bandwidth, then include an offer to graduate them to commercial rate/bandwidth. This should be done all up front at time of first signup…fair disclosure prevents many misunderstandings.
By the way, in regards to “unlimited” access, I can remember AOL’s claims back in the 1990s of unlimited access…but if you tried to leave your computer dialed in and connected while “unattended”, often you would come back after 46 minutes and find your connection had been terminated due to “no use”…nobody was their to click the OK button on the system modal box to stay online, popped up eveery 46 minutes. Lots of AOL members disliked that, pointed out the “unlimited access” part of AOLs advertising…AOL shrugged, magnified the “fine print”, and basically said “Deal with it”.
I pay $0.25 per minute to receive junk phone calls on my cell (goPhone prepaid) but I’d rather do that than have AT&T limit the people with whom I choose to initiate a call.
I think the primary ‘market force’ should be on the order of ‘equal access’ such that the 1984 degree that allowed every household to choose it’s own LD company, so should every household to choose it’s own ISP on their ‘wire’. I live in an area where I can get Qwest (just upgraded to 7mbps woo-hoo!), and Charter. Why can’t I get verizon, or Joe’s Internet at my utility room? I think Charter should be forced to be a ‘bit carrier’ and allow me to switch my ‘ISP’ to whomever is currently allowed to drive packets to the internet. so in my area, the headend has DHCP service and routting hub that drives my service into whomever has a POP in their closet. I’d pay $5 a month to Charter for that (to pay for that DHCP server and final mile services), and then buy my ISP services from someone else. Qwest can allow the same on their DSL network. Then it’s a matter of the market driving how much ‘traffic shaping’ vs ‘raw-bits’ is really in demand (along with all the other fluff… I don’t need any security stuff or email accounts, or other stuff from my ISP… I’ve got my own server in my house, and google hosts my domain thank you very much).
But I do see the need eventually for ISPs to serve a segments of the community with different internet services… there is a need for 5 star restaurants, MickeyDs and a need for grocery stores….
The Other Geoff
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
“I see,” quoth he, “the Elephant
Is very like a rope!”
You know, Net Neutrality really wouldn’t be an issue if ISPs (big OR small) did what they really were suppose to do – provide bandwidth being paid for 100% of the time.
The problem is that ISPs are basically betting that their users are not going to use 100% of what they pay for, and thus they don’t provision enough traffic to provide 100% of the bandwidth of 100% of their users.
If, however, they were to actually provision 100% of the bandwidth each user is paying for, and actually give it to them, then the whole issue would go away.
Honestly, I am all for Net Neutrality; and I do understand where the ISPs are coming from. I have no problem with them limiting my traffic so long as it is per the contract I have with them and provides equal access to all services, etc. on the Internet. As a software developer, I have different needs and use different tools; I go places that most users don’t. How does this work out: simple – limit the bandwidth to what I pay for.
Comcast tries to limit the bandwidth to a certain monthly cap. But that’s NOT what is being paid for. What’s being paid for is near 100% uptime with a constant connection at a given bandwidth rate.
For example, a 10 Mbit connection could potentially have 2.6298E+13 bits (or 26.298 terabits) of data per month (average of 12 months since it ranges between 28 and 31 days in the month) if the connection was constantly using its maximum data throughput the entire month. Contrast this with Comcast’s 250 Gigabit limit.
True, most people don’t necessarily use what they are paying for. But instead of complaining that your bet didn’t pay off – readjust your bet and continue. The user is rightly expecting to get what they are paying for; and as a service provider the ISP has agree to provide it for a given price; legally they have to provide it – not find ways to cheat the user out of what they legally contracted for with the ISP.
Sorry – if an ISP oversells its network, then I have no sympathy for them when the bet the ISP made didn’t pay out. They need to upgrade their network to provide what is needed. Costly? Yes, but that IS what the CUSTOMER is PAYING FOR.
Do you mean that Internet service should be built out like the real world – where the freeways are never slow, you never have to wait in line at a restaurant, nor get a long distance busy signal?
Bob,
I can’t imagine that you’re naive enough to seriously believe that the telcos, et al, becoming merely “schleppers of bits” would simultaneously end “reactionary lobbying.”
Really, Bob. That’s about the most pollyanna-like statement I think you’ve ever written. And, if its not, its at least in the Hall of Fame.
I’m beginning to think that we need to reiterate the definitions of ISP and IAP.
My partner and I had the first Canadian ISP/IAP – wimsey.com. We did not own a telephone company but we did provide modems that tied to the phone lines – so we provided ACCESS to the internet – before the local ILEC even though about entering the game.
We also provided e-mail service (continues to this day under a different domain) in that we provided both POP mail hosting and mail redirecting (the POP is gone, the redirect lives on). While we also provided file hosting (FTP largely) we got into the business of web hosting in 1993 with one of the first Canadian instances of HTTP hosted sites.
So we were both an access provider and a service provider. The access had its own cost base and had to be self supporting separately from the service side.
The point is that “net neutrality” is largely about ACCESS – hooking up both consumers and suppliers of internet traffic to transit the bits. That is what it should be about – but we have the integrated ISP/IAPs who have their “walled gardens” of web applications and such as well as their various complementary and competing technologies – cable TV vs web TV, telephone circuits vs VOIP and cellular phone vs WIMAX – and that is where the water gets muddy.
The only way to ensure that there is ever such a thing as net neutrality is to divide the two kinds of entities: ISP and IAP, into completely separate companies – or set up a (FCC? CRTC?) government agency that has the power and mandate to ensure that these two functions remain completely economically and managerially separate divisions of any company that has both functions.
richard
Although we tend to talk about Net Neutrality as a single concept, it really touches on three separate questions:
Q1: “To what sites can we connect, and can there be an extra charge to connect to some of those sites?”
A1: Network providers (ISP, NAP, backbone, etc) should *not* be able to block or charge more for access to any individual site. (They of course can continue to charge connecting networks for total traffic, but not for individual sites.) This would eventually lead to a mafia-style protection racket — “Oh, you want to access Yahoo, then that will be an extra $15/mo.” It also tends to create anti-competitive monopolies — “Oh, I’m sorry Google, we can’t allow your packets on our backbone because Microsoft is already paying us money to be the exclusive search engine.”
Q2: “What applications (protocols) are allowed to make use of those connections?”
A2: Network providers should *not* be able to block or charge more for particular application protocols. This would simply stifle innovation — “Sorry, you can’t play World of Warcraft because we block all but the well-known interactive protocols from 1997.”
Q3: “What prioritizations can be imposed, e.g. on given applications or heavy traffic users?”
A3: Network providers should be able to shape traffic. The reason is because bandwidth is a limited resource. Basically, I don’t want my simple web surfing to slow to a crawl because my neighbor is downloading a bunch of DVD ISOs. So: Realtime communication applications, such as streaming video and audio and VoIP, must logically get highest priority, and bulk transfers, like FTP and Bittorrent, should get lowest priority. You could even swizzle the priorities based on amount of data — whereas Bittorrent is always bulk, HTTP & FTP could be regular priority for any transfer less than xx megabytes, after which they’d be treated as low priority bulk.
-david
2 and 3 don’t make sense to me. WOW is not a “protocol” but if you mean application, well it certainly is that. But if you allow “shaping” as in 3, then why not allow “shaping” as in 2. Besides, any shaping done may be defeated. If ISPs started limiting bit torrent or ftp packets, wouldn’t their programs be rewritten to simply disguise them as VOIP? In any case I pay my phone and cable tv bills, and personally take offence at others wasting valuable internet bandwidth duplicating these services. They should be allowed but certainly not given priority over ANY of my packets. Network Neutrality should simply mean all bits are equal.
Imagine if we took away neutrality in other utilities. Imagine if your electric utility limited the electricity it sells you simply because you watch a TV station they do not own. How long would you tolerate that?
If I pay $70 a month for 10Mbps service, I should be able to do whatever I want with that service. Net neutrality is the best option for consumers, which is why ISPs are against it.
Bundled services are a great idea for an ISP but a terrible idea for consumers. If you have a billing dispute and they shut off your service, suddenly you are without phone number, a working email address and internet connection. If you have poor internet connectivity, it also means you have poor phone connectivity. Once you have established your username@bigisp.net account, you are less likely to switch service.
If competition between ISPs was truly open, net neutrality would never be an issue. Nearly every house in the US has three different types of wire running into them. Power, phone and cable. If there was competing services provided by each one, speed would increase, service would improve and prices would remain low.
Another thing to compare internet neutrality to: highway access.
US highways and roads are currently government operated, and there is largely unfettered freedom on what vehicles we can drive on, where we can go, much less why we drive on the road. (Most restrictions are imposed so as not to compromise road safety and not to damage road.)
If highways and roads were operated like internet is today, all roads/bridges/highways would be privately owned. We may be charged based on amount of driving we do, or worse yet, based on where we plan to travel on a regular basis. The operator company may offer different subscription plans based on how many cars we have, mileage we accumulate. One could argue that this would be a good industry where different road companies compete for customer business based on quality of service. (‘On our freeway system, we guarantee average driving speed of 85mph!’)
In reality, I don’t think we’d ever privatize our roads. So many aspects of our lives, commerce, and governing depend on roads and highways, we cannot ill afford risk of market forces affecting access/availability/reliability of this basic infrastructure.
The question is, should internet be regarded as roads/highways?
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
Wally,
In Maryland, at least, the utility BGE offers a pretty significant carrot to consumers to opt out of “net neutrality”. One can pocket $200 per air conditioning unit the first summer when one agrees to allow the utility to shut off that A/C unit at moments of peak energy demand.
From an economic perspective what BGE is doing would be the same as Comcast offering restricted Internet access for a base price and an unlimited access plan for a higher fee.
In other words, the real world is way ahead of you on this one is recognizing that “net neutrality” yields inefficient outcomes.
Why would anyone give up A/C on the hotest day of the year when they need it most? Just charge higher rates so the power company can provide enough power for those who want to pay and those who don’t will voluntarily turn off their power to save a significant enough some of money. No need to give them control to force you to be uncomfortable when maybe you changed your mind about the $200. We neen net neutality to keep the control in our hands.
What a stupid argument. Obviously if you don’t enforce net neutrality, Comcast and the other oligarchs will shut out everything but their own portal. Duh!
[…] Taking Net Neutrality Personally From Robert Cringely, a look at two extremes on the net neutrality debate. […]
Bob, Thanks for sharing. I suppose you can relegate this to the analogy of a plethora of 8-track player repair shops when 8-tracks were a hot thing in the 70’s. I’m sure they didn’t go away quickly or easily and they did not spend their time recommending much else but the 8-track player (and not the better cassette tape). Ultimately market forces dictated otherwise and regardless of how they felt things changed. It will be interesting to see how long ISPs have left because it’s a matter of time before they go away
[…] know all the nitty gritty details on the topic, but while he was talking I remembered the I, Cringley article I read recently which looks it that topic from the perspective of bandwidth costs. In it he takes […]
So oft in theological wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on utter ignorance
Of what the other mean.
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!
[…] I, Cringely » Blog Archive » Brett Versus Bob: Taking Net … […]
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