This week the U.S. Federal Communications Commission (FCC) releases its proposed new rules for Internet Service Provider (ISP) network neutrality. I have written many times about Network Neutrality and once I have a look at the FCC proposal I am sure I’ll have comments to make here. In general I’m in favor of rules that allow me, as a consumer, more digital freedom. It would be great to run Skype over my iPhone, for example, just as I can already run it over the cellular connection on my notebook. But right now I’m talking about a different kind of network neutrality, the kind I’m struggling to achieve in my own home.
I live in Charleston, South Carolina where my primary ISP is Comcast. I have a 16 megabit-per-second (mbps) business Internet service with five static IPs and an upstream speed that I think is supposed to be 2.0 mbps but actually measures around 2.5. On the Speakeasy Speed Test I have no problem clocking the full 16 mbps to Atlanta, either. It’s not Verizon’s FIOS, it costs three times as much as FIOS, but my connection more than does the job. Compared to some other places in the world of course my speeds are laughable.
So why is it that when I surf the net while speaking on my Voice-over-IP (VOIP) telephone, it breaks up? It’s not like I don’t have enough bandwidth, both up and down. And the network in my house is 100 mbps wired Ethernet using Cat5 cable throughout. Ah, but I’m using the hated Vonage telephone service you say, not Comcast’s VOIP offering. That explains it: net neutrality violation!!!
Except it isn’t. Comcast and Vonage have been pretending to be friends for a while now. It’s all part of the “We don’t really need that old Net Neutrality” song Comcast and the other big ISPs have been singing, including the verse that says Vonage is okay by them.
Then why does my Vonage-connected fax machine not function reliably, either?
Maybe I need traffic shaping, you say. Let’s just adjust my router to give priority to those VOIP packets, as I am sure Comcast would do if I were using their service.
Except I already do traffic shaping. I run a rather robust firewall as a sort of Internet gateway that includes local DNS and Squid (proxy) service. VOIP Packets get first dibs on my cable modem and always have.
This problem has been driving me crazy for some time now, but I believe I know what’s happening and it has nothing to do with Comcast or net neutrality.
I’m pretty sure the problem is in the Vonage boxes that connect my phone and fax machine to the network, called Analog Telephony Adapters or ATAs. First, I don’t use my ATA’s as Vonage suggests. Vonage envisions a single-ATA network generally with a single PC, or at least they did when I got these puppies. They want me to plug my ATA into the cable modem and my PC into the ATA so the ATA automatically takes precedence. I can’t do that for three reasons: 1) my office is three floors above my cable modem; 2) my fax machine is not in the same room as my PC, and; 3) I’m pretty sure the Vonage Ethernet ports are limited to 10 mbps so hooking-in there would limit the bandwidth available to my PC. If I’m paying for 16 mbps, dag nabbit I want to use 16 mbps!
Given that I’m already doing traffic shaping in the router and have a huge excess of bandwidth for VOIP anyway, what’s the big deal using the ATA’s as I do, simply plugged into a 10/100 Ethernet switch? It shouldn’t matter.
Then I spoke with my friend Paul and came to a sudden realization. I’ve been messing with my Internet gateway, trying to convert it to a trio of $99 SheevaPlug computers that I’ll run as a tiny cluster just to see if I can do it. Paul said his testing showed each 1.2 GHz Sheeva was the equivalent of about a 10th of his four-core AMD box. “But even that’s plenty to saturate an Ethernet connection,” he said.
The Sheeva installation isn’t even ready to go yet, but what came to me is that the poor Vonage ATAs just can’t keep up. I got them when I signed up for Vonage service in 2002! Back then my computer had a single core and ran at 400 MHz. Today I have four cores and run at 3.0 GHz. While it technically isn’t supposed to work that way I’m guessing my PC is just so darned fast at grabbing and releasing bandwidth those little seven year-old Motorola ATAs from Vonage are having trouble getting a packet in edgewise. Yes, the switch should compensate for that but you know I think that switch is about seven years old, too.
That explains why VOIP clients like Skype and Gizmo that run entirely on my PC (no ATA) don’t have any problems.
Most of my hardware is replaced every three years, but these network components have been running undisturbed since they were first installed. And being digital they probably run as well as ever. They just weren’t built with the idea that one day there would be a bully in the house.
I had the same issue and ended up throwing out my Vonage system for standard lines. Later on I installed VOIP phones to a local PBX and had similar issues again – turned out my switch needed to be upgraded to handle QOS – after that no issues.
Bob, I’m not sure your theory is correct. If the ATA is plugged into a switch port by itself, it shouldn’t even see the frames emitted by your PC, as the switch is sending those directly to the gateway. The switch should queue and round-robin the frames from both the ATA and the PC into the gateway’s port, at which point the gateway should prioritize them. And so long as you’re content with 100Mbps, those 100Mbps switches should do that job on a 100Mbps fabric just as well as they ever did.
Frankly, I wonder if it’s not a Vonage issue. I realize this is completely anecdotal, but in my neck of the woods (Central Florida), even the Vonage demonstration kiosk at the shopping mall sounds kind of cruddy, bad enough that we still pay for our POTS line. Are Vonage’s aggregators up to the subscriber load?
Casey
Bob,
Don’t blame Vonage.
“FAXing over VoIP networks doesn’t work. You can sometimes arrange things so a fairly high percentage of FAXes get through OK. You can occassionally create setups that work 100% of the time. These are rare and unrepeatable setups. You need to use a proper FAX over IP protocol, such as T.38, to achieve consistent reliable FAXing across IP networks.”
The above is a quote from this site: https://www.soft-switch.org/foip.html
Hi Bob,
Had a similar issue. We turned OFF traffic shaping on our router and that fixed it. (Yes, Vonage + Comcast…same as you.) Also bought a new router and that helped a lot, too — turns out that extra 4MB of RAM really *does* make a difference!
So…recommendation. “New” router (get a Linksys with extra RAM; see Wikipedia to tell which one has it.) Get new Vonage ATA (I have a D-Link VTA-VD that works great…skip the ones with built-in routers.) Turn off traffic shaping. Try again.
It’s probably not Comcast, or your upstream bandwidth, that’s the issue.
-Erica
P.S. It’s Mbps, not mbps. 😉
Thanks but it’s hard enough getting people to remember to capitalize names like mHz; “mbps” is ok since “mega” is not based on anyone’s name.
the ‘m’ prefix means “milli” 1/1000
the ‘M’ prefix means “mega” 1000000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_prefix
Yes, it makes sense when you’re trying to distinguish between mW and MW (power). But for bps mili-bps makes no sense so there is no confusion.
Seems like a strange theory to me as well – I’m not a networking engineer, but by the time the ethernet frames are getting to the switch, I don’t see how the CPU of the PC can have any effect, especially if the switch is unsaturated.
There’s an easy way to test – when the PC is unplugged from the network, does the VoIP quality improve consistently?
As for faxing, what’s the setup? As GIR says, VoIP fax is notoriously difficult as the standard VoIP codecs mangle fax tones too much. Any further degradation would make faxing extremely difficult.
Bob,
Drop Vonage and buy an ooma device (https://www.ooma.com). Own your own dialtone. Haven’t had a quality problem yet.
I recall reading that some inexpensive Ethernet switches deal with too many packets by forwarding them to all ports rather than dropping some packets. I can not find the link right now…
Bob,
I have the same setup as you to the letter – even the 7 year old Motorola ATA. I have suspected many of the same things as you, and I even took it as far as to buy one of the little USB vonage devices at our favorite (on sale half price). That little USB device works flawlessly.
So I attacked the problem using my trusty Linksys WRT54G with the DD-WRT firmware. By using that to shape the traffic and act as an external gateway, I have a pretty decent Vonage connection all the time. That being said, I wish there was a site or service that I could call and it could test the quality of the line…
However, are we at a point where we are attacking this from the wrong perspective? Why not use a MicroCell (or Airave from Sprint) to set up your own high power cell site at your house and a bluetooth enabled handset phone (VTech makes an awesome one)? This would do away with Vonage, get your using modern technology that was designed to handle our more robust online experiences, and still give you a phone with a real handset.
And you still have a machine in your house that captures your faxes (let alone you still fax?!)? I’m surprised – I would have expected you to jump onto one of the online fax services. Or at least jumped into the Adobe PDF transmision of signed documents. Maybe you know something I don’t…
Either way, if you call Vonage they will, for being such a long term and valued customer, send you a newer Linksys based ATA. Good luck!
Bob, More useful articles. Less requests for free consultancy!
Malcolm,
More paid subscriptions, less reading his FREE blog…
Fax machine should not work, they should just die and be forgotten.
Consider yourself lucky to be in the forefront of technical development 😉
[…] Neutrality Begins at Home Comcast and Vonage have been pretending to be friends for a while now. It’s all part of the “We don’t really need that old Net Neutrality” song Comcast and the other big ISPs have been singing, including the verse that says Vonage is okay by them. […]
I recently quit Comcast after try after try on my site to improve things. VOIP as you describe. Also, loss of connection. I play poker and got disconnected regularly. Saw similar reconnect attempts from my IM setup two or three times a day. TOS says not their problem — they don’t guarantee solid connection. VOIP was sometimes flawless and other times very problematic. Almost like sometimes they caught on and others they didn’t.
When I quit I got routed to a “retention specialist” who went to the canned patter. When I told them it was the frequent disconnects, they shut up and let me leave.
Verizon (new provider) has its gotchas too. I can view video without problems on every site except YouTube. There most videos stutter regardless of time of day etc. But, have played poker without a disconnect since switching. And, the VOIP is quite a bit better. Also, don’t have to have their land line. Other than apparent shaping directed at YouTube, much improved.
P.S. I had the VOIP ahead of router and that did nothing beneficial. VOIP was D-links latest and greatest too.
You likely have two problems:
1 – Your modem has very large buffers in the upstream direction. You should ensure that the total amount of traffic allowed by your traffic shaper is at least 10% less than your measured upstream output. The reason is that you want to make sure that the modem buffers are always empty, else you will get high latency and jitter, both of which are deadly to VoIP
2 – You are shaping in the upstream direction, but not the downstream. You can’t get your ISP to prioritize your downstream VoIP packets over your other traffic, so they wait in line with your other traffic, potentially adding packet loss, jitter and latency as well.
I’ve seen several instances where placing a DSL line filter between the fax machine and the ATA solves the faxing problems (with Vonage and with a commercial VoIP installation to an older analog fax machine). It’s an inexpensive experiment.
Also, I always use *99 before faxing out with Vonage. It’s supposed to increase the call quality specifically for faxing for just that call. My Vonage ATA is behind my Apple Airport Extreme and has nothing connected downstream from it.
Why not try using one of the upstart VOIP guys like Phone.com? Cheaper and would subsidize the cost of getting a new ATA, or rather than use an ATA plug in a PolyCom VOIP phone that they offer.
I usually use my cell phone for making and receiving phone calls, but still need a land line on occasion. I originally used Comcast’s over-priced/low-quality VOIP service, but eventually thought “there has to be a better way”.
I originally looked into Skype and Vonage. Skype turned me off because of its proprietary nature; I thought Vonage was still too expensive.
I discovered that there are literally hundreds of Vonage-equivalents out there. A simple search for “VOIP providers” will net you more options that you can skim on your break. (I found CallWithUs.com adequate and cheap for my needs.)
The standard VOIP protocol is SIP (Session Initiation Protocol). As long as your VOIP provider speaks SIP, you can then use whatever ATA you want. Grandstream makes popular ATAs; I use the Linksys SPA-3102 (which can also be used as a router, but I use it strictly as an ATA).
Next step: using a “cluster” of SheevaPlugs as your router/firewall/gateway sounds like a neat project; however, I suggest looking into an AMD Geode powered device. In particular, I use the Alix boards sold by PCEngines. You install your operating system (Linux, BSD, etc) and configure. Of course there are distributions targeted for this kind of application where the configuration can be done through a simple web-GUI interface.
My Alix board consumes literally five watts AC.
I connect my ATA to my switch. However, my Alix board has three ethernet ports. I could conceivably connect the ATA directly to the router (Alix board). But as it is now, I’m not having any QoS issues. But, in Bob’s case, it might help to remove the switch/hub from the telephony network.
You might be able to pull off something similar by using a DD-WRT compatible router in place of the Alix board. The popular Linksys WRT54G (as mentioned above) is one such example.
But, my main point is that you ought to be able to save money by using a generic VOIP provider in place of Vonage. It gives you more control. Since they all speak the same protocol, if you’re unhappy with one, just switch. (I’m assuming the Vonage ATA is like the “car with the hood welded shut”. Whereas a generic ATA, you can configure yourself.)
The other point is that plugging your ATA directly into your router/firewall/gateway device takes the switch out the picture, and may improve QoS performance.
not trying to plug anything, but I’ve got a Linksys (by Cisco) WRT610N router. It’s quite good — not only does it have 4 gigabit wired ports, and has simultaneous dual-band N (both the faster and the slower connections), but it also has a built-in USB port that takes a hard drive — now you’re cooking as you then have a NAS — Network Attached Storage — that’s available to all of your machines. It’s a reasonable upgrade to your ancient router, and you can (slowly or quickly) upgrade your connections to Gigabit as you choose. (You might want to run either Cat5e or Cat6 wires, though.)
Just concluding two weeks of Vonage and its been painful. I played with everything in this thread and nothing helped. Dropped packets, etc. I’m switching to comcast voice as i have heard good things in my area. Comcast installs a secondary modem (depending on your current setup) and I suspect that the voice runs on a secondary TDM channel that isolates it from standard IP traffic. At least I hope 🙂
Bob,
You gotta lose those annoying ads, they are incredibly obnoxious. You know, the ones that force you to click before they reveal your content.
Not only will I avoid products which use them, I avoid websites which implement them. I don’t have a problem with banner ads, but ads which force me to watch, or do this, or that, annoy me enough that that I will just go elsewhere.
Hopefully you will receive similar feedback from other readers as well and reconsider.
Thanks.
I have never seen that problem on Bob’s website or any other that I can think of. Maybe you have a virus. I’m even using IE 8 without web site blocking, no popup blocker, and protected mode off. If you have a virus, just reinstall your system from scratch. But don’t use an anti-virus because they are bloated and annoying.
I don’t think its a virus, if its not an ad from cringely.com, then its
probably my ISP doing some questionable web ad injection voodoo.
Below are snippets showing relevant source.
Left justified looks like legit cringely.com code and there for reference.
Questionable source is indented
Bob, does this look right, or something fishy going on? If so, you
have my email, I’d love to figure out what’s going on.
_____
…
…
…
…
…
There are ads here?
Who knew.
Running Firefox with Adblock Plus,NoScript and OptimizeGoogle addons,
plus system wide Immunization via Spybot S&D (blocking nasties using the hosts file.)
I rarely see any ads on web pages.
And if I do, i can usually add them to
Adblock Plus’ blocking filter with a couple of clicks.
Web Pages allways look better without the ads.
If I want/need ads to show I use Google Chrome.
Skip the Vonage. I bought one of the $39 MajicJack devices for my iMac with 4 GB of RAM and a good Comcast broadband link. Very much to my surprise, it is working flawlessly giving me unlimited USA and Canada phone service to any phone for $20 a year.
POTS works fine for me. Even during a power failure, my PBX will continue running normally for hours thanks to the big backup batteries.
I’ve been using Vonage for a few years. At first I had problems with poor phone quality when I was downloading a linux distro, or other large files. Then, I bought a Linksys WRT54GL router and flashed it with Tomato firmware. I shape the traffic up and down and give highest priority to Vonage. I’ve not had problems since- and I even have a slow normal residential Comcast isp. (Looks like I have 3.5 Mb/s down and 0.2 Mb/s up.)
I also have Grandstream ATA that’s unused as I was considering dropping Vonage, but then didn’t like the idea of being left alone and our kids nanny not being able to make a reliable 911 call. At least there’s some comfort there with a larger company, like Vonage.
Bob, I thought you owned WRT54G routers after your articles about the customizable (and happily now defunct) Sveasoft firmwares! I would buy the beefiest router that supports one of the open firmwares and try your luck with that. Tomato, as one other poster suggested is GREAT and offers real-time stats on lan/wan/port traffic, QoS, and even wireless client mode so you could have a wireless bridge.
Also:
When building an ethernet cluster, friends found out that most routers/switches (like one would have at home) these days are blocking, so the switch isn’t available on every port at every moment, creating fits and spits of bandwidth even when there is lots of traffic lan/lan or lan/wan, almost like a shared-medium networks. Likely not your problem, but it bit some people I knew. Also things like bit-torrent which make many TCP connections have been known to be problematic for latency despite their low bandwidth.
1) I had similar problems with Vonage a few years ago. I switched to my CableTV’s phone service. While it is a VoIP service it is implemented differently! For the service they installed a second DOCSIS modem in my house. The first provides my Internet. The second is for their phone service. Basically my ISP has created a second independent network just for phone calls. The modem has both ethernet and phone ports. In my case only the phone port is active. There is no QoS or packet shaping involved. A phone call can run on about 30 kbps (or less). The phone service uses an entirely separate network. If this network is capable of multi-megabit connections then the phone service for my home barely uses the full network. At the ISP’s back office is a VoIP PBX that puts my phone calls onto the telco phone network. My CableTV phone calls never see the Internet.
2) The new ClarkConnect 5.0 has better rate shaping. The better implementation should help VoIP phone service considerably, Vonage included.
3) I have seen a number of problems with older equipment having difficulty keeping up with modern communications. It is probably time to get rid of those 3+ year old router/switches, or give them to less demanding users. Those old Vonage devices should probably head to the trash can too.
To the nice person complaining about the advertising. Many years ago I took Bob’s lead and put in a ClarkConnect gateway. It was the best thing I ever did. I started looking at the network reports and found out the advertising websites were using over 95% of my total network usage. Since I am paying for that bandwidth and they are not, I decided to cut them off. From the reports I could spot the big offenders and add them to an ever growing block list. Over time my Internet connection became a LOT faster.
After my ISP’s DNS server went down a few times, I switched to OpenDNS. Again its use was a very good move. Through their service I have greater control over things. With OpenDNS I can pick options that prevent access to various types of websites. Pfishing sites are blocked. I can choose to block others. With the one-two punch of OpenDNS and ClarkConnect I am able to keep many Internet problems out of my house.
This level of filtering does introduce other problems. But overall I am having a lot fewer problems with bad things happening to the PC’s in my home. I also have absolute control over what my kids and their friends can do with my Internet connection.
Bob,
Sounds like you have a capable switch so I’d establish VLAN 1 on designated ethernet ports and give it the highest priority (for VOIP gear including hard phones and TAs). Then establish VLAN 2 on all the other ports and plug in your wireless hub and other non-critical machines there. This should keep you voip and streaming stuff going even if it is old legacy junk. I do it with my VOIP and it has been very easy and successful. Trying to manage priority through RTP and SIP ports has always been an utterl failure for me. Yay VLANS!
Bob, here’s another annoyed data point about the “click-me-or-I’ll-cover-the-article” expand-o ad that now seems to have taken residency at the top of your page. I guess your agreement with the ad service allows that. You gotta make a buck, I know, but …
You guys complaining about ads should be using firefox with the adblock and noscript plug ins. I almost never see ads, and when I do, a few clicks and that one is added to the filtering as well.
Never mind that it’s an expand-o ad. Just have a look who is paying Bob’s bills!! Not sure Big Blue would be too delighted after the coverage Bob has given them in the last year or two. Just highlights a weaknesses of Internet advertising. You can end up paying your nemesis’ bills.
Do things work differently if you plug your whole house into the Vonage box, by connecting it to a wall jack, and disconnecting the phone company from the outside panel?
Has Vonage even fixed their box with the built-in wireless? That never worked when I had it, and I had to get a separate wireless router to handle it.
Actually, Skype for iPhone / iPod Touch exists, and it’s free.
Skype for iphone exists but you cannot call over 3G connection, only wifi
I use Vonage via the Linksys ATA, over Comcast . The current router is a recent model Airport Extreme, but I have used several others without difficulty. Our voice quality is truly excellent, all the time. For unlimited local and long distance service in US and Canada, it is easily worth my $30/month.
Bob, this struck me as one of those ‘I need to write something, even if I have nothing to say,’ posts or columns.
You start out, ‘FCC will be saying … something soon, and so I will talk about that … soon.’
You continue, ‘I have problems. You know what? A buddy of mine said something that I am guessing might have something to do with it.’
Why didn’t you FIX THE PROBLEM before you wrote this up? Then you could have at least confirmed your guess. All you’ve given us here is a guess.
And as many of the comments attest, your guess is as good as about 30 other guys’!
Bob, I could be wrong about your particular usage – but I used Skype from my iPhone a couple days ago. All I had to do was connect to the WiFi and I was able to hold a conversation with a friend of mine in Ukraine. It was a decent connection, and I was impressed that I didn’t have to be connected to the computer or anything besides the wireless. Love your blog.
I’m not sure it’s your PC. I’ve got a 3 year old 64-bit AMD connected to my network at 1Gbps and my Vonage is fine. I’ve also got 3 other computers in the house connected to the same internet connection. The things I changed:
1) Put in a Linksys router and loaded it with dd-wrt
2) Added traffic shaping for all of the VOIP ports and the MAC address of my vonage device
3) And this seems to be important for getting calls to come in correctly. I gave my vonage device a static IP and told my router to forward all packets bound for ports 10000 through 20000 (UDP only) to the vonage device.
It’s been fine since then.
I had the same problem and have trying everything you have tried but I eventually settled with connecting my vonage through a switch to the modem and my OpenBSD firewall with traffic shaping to the same switch. B/c we’re on SHAW cable both devices get their own publicly routable address. My fax and Phone quality hasn’t been an issue since. I’m using a WRT54GP2 device bought around 2006. I’ve been operating on this setup just fine for about 4 months.
I’ve noticed the same problem at my office.
There are some differences however, my workstation is by far the fastest on the network (Q6600 w/4GB RAM) — not to mention my ATA is plugged into my workstation (it is a MagicJack device).
I’ve set the router to give these priority, set windows to do the same, even given the MagicJack software realtime priority & locked it to a specific core.
Nevertheless, calls over 20 minutes begin breaking up. Calls over an hour eventually drop the outgoing voice channel. No-one from either cable co or MagicJack has been able to come up with a theory, much less a solution.
Ah! This really is amazing! Thanks for countering severalsome misconceptions I had noticed about this as of late.
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Nice share,thanks and good luck!
I, Cringely » Blog Archive » Neutrality Begins at Home – Cringely on technology
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