YouTube made two fascinating announcements recently: 1) viewers are now downloading an average of two billion videos per day on the service, and; 2) YouTube is almost showing a profit for Google, its owner. Think about the glorious inefficiency embodied in that latter statement: two billion downloads per day just to break even. And this is supposed to be the future of television? Hardly.
I think the future of television is Veetle.
Veetle, if you haven’t heard of it, is a Palo Alto-based startup that isn’t nominated for this summer’s Startup Tour. Veetle appears from my vantage point to be a peer-to-peer video distribution system that most closely parallels the current cable TV model except applied to the Internet. Veetle video channels can be viewed in a browser (32-bit plug-in required) and present — just like CNN — a continuous stream of programming that can’t be interrupted, paused, or changed and can’t be very easily recorded, either.
In fact a Veetle channel very well could be CNN, because almost anyone can become a Veetle broadcaster by just grabbing a video feed from their DVD player or cable box and throwing it up on the web in glorious H.264. Veetle is an adolescent cesspool of intellectual property confusion but that’s part of what makes it so much fun.
Now here is why I think Veetle is the future of television. I have been writing about this particular topic (the future of television) since 1997 and while a lot has changed much has not. Sure, bandwidth is a thousand times cheaper than it was. Sure, codecs are better as are PCs. But the two core issues of: 1) how to maintain intellectual property rights for web video, and; 2) how to make money with web video, are no more answered today than they were back in the days of broadcast.com when Mark Cuban suckered Yahoo into thinking he had all the answers when of course he did not.
But in my view Veetle actually does have many of the answers.
Here’s why. YouTube has those two billion downloads per day yet just manages to break even. Commercial TV has less than two billion viewers per day, yet manages to be a very profitable industry with at least $20 billion in annual sales. The question to ask is not why YouTube is so popular by why it is so unprofitable? It is unprofitable because most of the content is crap. It is unprofitable because distribution costs are still too high. It is unprofitable because the ad model isn’t clear. It is unprofitable because the average video is still less than four minutes long so this is not a medium for story telling in any strict sense. Oh, and did I mention that the content is crap?
Commercial or even non-commercial TV, in contrast, may be too dumb, too simple, and too obvious for the most part, but not all of it is crap. Find a way to reach the non-crap while preserving the best of traditional TV and you’ll have something. You’ll have Veetle.
Pre-Veetle, the video distribution models were buying or renting from iTunes, watching with commercials on Hulu or TV.com in a system subsidized by the writers and actors unions, watching with some ads on YouTube, or just plain watching (crap) on many different sites. None of those models, however, have Veetle’s key feature of being easy to watch but hard to hack, easy to attend but hard to ignore. You can’t pause it, you can’t record it, you just have to watch it, like broadcast or cable TV pre-TiVO. And that makes it an ideal commercial medium and one very good for preserving intellectual property rights, unlike all those others.
The aha! moment with Veetle is when you realize it is just like having a cable TV system with a million channels. Along with the bad porn (Veetle really needs parental controls, guys) and European football on Veetle is a loop from some user running every episode of The Big Bang Theory, which of course I love. There are something like 66 episodes, but it could be just as easy with Veetle to have 66 channels each one episode deep.
And of course there is the p2p aspect of the service, which lowers Veetle’s bandwidth to around 700 kbps-per-continuous channel. Compare that to YouTube with two billion 350 kbps downloads at 3:30 each for the calculated equivalent of 2.4 MILLION Veetle channels. No wonder YouTube barely makes a profit even with zero content cost.
I could throw my 13 old episodes of NerdTV up on Veetle in full resolution, running them in a loop with a couple of commercials in each episode, and not only would I entertain people, I’d put my three kids through private schools on the proceeds. There is no way — no way— I could do that on YouTube.
That’s where Veetle gets it and YouTube doesn’t, because this particular option isn’t really available on YouTube, which remains an expensive distribution system in search of a viable programming model.
I can see how Veetle would grow to be a $20 billion replacement for traditional TV, but I can’t see how YouTube could ever do it.
I disagree. The future of TV isn’t done by taking control away from the consumer but by enabling more consumer control. In this TiVo and Hulu world, you’re saying that people are going to flock to a system where they give up the ability to control not only what they watch and when they watch it, but the pause and rewind buttons as well? iTunes has possibly destroyed the album, and Hulu and YouTube may yet destroy the concept of a TV channel.
I can see why people who like the TV business model will like Veetle, but the solution isn’t “Something like TV, but on the Internet”, but “How do we market this content in a way that’s idiomatic to the Internet?” People don’t want channels, they want shows and stories. When someone figures out how to do that in a well organized way, they’re going to be the ones raking in the cash.
I agree with Jason. What people want is more control, not less. I recently decided I wanted to watch LOST. Yes, it’s about to go off the air but it doesn’t matter because all 6 seasons are available on Hulu. So I started watching it and it’s great! I can watch as many as I want and they only take 40 minutes to watch a show that on regular TV would be 60 minutes. Each commercial break has only 1 commercial which is often only 15 seconds long and I can tell Hulu if that commercial is relevant to me or not. That makes me feel like watching the commercial and giving them the feedback.
The point is, what people want is to watch shows/movies on their schedule, not someone elses. I think Hulu has the right model. It’s free but with limited commercials and they can start tailoring the commercials if they want to. All the need is to have a log in and ask you for some demographics so they can show you commercials that are relevant to you.
I would guess they will eventually offer a paid model where you get more content and no commercials. I think they have hot the right model. And they could offer to allow others to upload content and share the ad revenue because what do they care? It’s really about the commercials and/or subscription model revenue anyway right?
But you have a choice e.g YouTube, Hulu, NetFlix and the Veetle.
If you don’t care for the distribution methodology you have the choice
to pick one you like.
I found my thrill already on the Veetle, TopGear
No need for BBC America feed on Comcast.
I agree with Jason. I think you really missed the mark on this one Cringe.
I read the entire article thinking, why in the world would I want this? I don’t even watch broadcast TV in R/T anymore, but find myself waiting until about halfway through so I can TiVo it and not have to sit through commercials.
I would rather pay a subscription fee to have it commercial free. Maybe Veetle should offer a premium service that allows TiVo features and no commercials. *That* would hold some interest for me (if they also had quality content).
This is something that I (and every other person who has ever used a DVR) will most likely take a pass on. Hope you haven’t invested in these guys. I don’t see it going anywhere.
I’ll accept no record, since recording youtube is a pain.
but if I can’t pause, and come back after dealing with whatever emergancy calls me away for three minutes, then you are wasting my time, and I’ll find something else.
I’m not alone on this and your commercial requirements are not my problem.
Try the Video Download Helper plugin for Firefox. It’s free, and makes downloading a YouTube video (which Cringely has confused with streaming) a cinch.
1) Go to YouTube video
2) Click button in your browser’s toolbar
3) Select “Download”
And voila, you have the video file from YouTube.
-Erica
Thanks, since I run Firefox on my home machines, this could be useful.
But the point was that I don’t often want to download, I just want to watch it and pause and rewind if needed, and it doesn’t really change the point.
Unless I’m missing something here, TV is not going to adopt Veetle, they are going to shut it down. It seems to me the that case is far more open and shut than pirate bay. On the very first page on veetle.com I see the ‘Simpsons Channel’ hosted by some random guy that I’m pretty sure is not licensed to distribute it. Can anybody say contributory to copyright infringement? I hope these Stanford guys can afford good lawyers.
At least a good bit of YouTube is legal content. Veetle? Not so much. More like Napster redux.
If anything is clear (whichever side you support) from the current Apple/Adobe imbroglio is requiring a new, ostensibly closed plug-in for content delivery is not going to happen.
Jason brings up a good point, and there may be another point that needs to be raised… in the net neutrality debate, what will stop the ISPs (read: Cable and Telcos) from getting their ‘cut’ of this as they see the drop in their DirectTV/Cable revenues, by ‘tiering’ services based on steady state use. I don’t want my 20Mbps DSL link to become ‘rate limited’ when I’m streaming 1080i Real Housewives.
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However if content creators for the $20Billion a year industry that has the same ‘new’ show on 4-10 times for the non-TIVO crowd, can disintermediate the networks and the cable companies, and effectively become ‘channels’ (the ‘Law and Order’ channel ‘group’, the ‘RealHouseWive’s’ channel ‘group’, the ‘JennaJameson’ channel group), basically, ‘albums’ or ‘newsfeeds’ or whatever model you want, and you ‘subscribe to that, and have it paid for by a online advertisement (embedded, non-skipable, possibly as ‘footers’ instead of inline) model… That model works for me.>br>
Especially if you can get to real-time (sports, news) channels in the same manner. That would be a winner.
I don’t mind watching the ads and not being able to skip, but I find it amazing that they can’t be better targeted. When I use Veetle online to watch Liverpool in matches not on TV, I get targeted ads that pop up on the bottom that I actually do click on.
I have four girls under 8 and I buy pricess, dora, and yo gabba gabba stuff. If the distribution system was smart enough, I would watch those targeted commercials if I can’t skip cause they are relevant. Google has enough info on me to target ad online to me, why not the TV commercials.
This is an issue as I try to share Cleveland Cavalier basketball with my older three and they then show commercials for Grey Anatomy with mostly naked people and limbs falling off bodies. I can’t show them Ultimate Banzauke on G4 without hovering over to skip the International Sexy Lady show. The system should replace it with a Wii Mario ad for their new game instead and they would sell.
Doesn’t sound even remotely as good as iPlayer to me.
My children cannot even relate to the concept that you cannot pause TV, or watch programmes whenever you want.
The only type of TV that needs to be live is news/sports/weather. Everything else is better done on-demand. Services like veetle may find a niche in sports broadcasting over the Internet, but I doubt much else.
OTOH, the ability for anyone to broadcast using the service does have its appeal. Then again, distributing over bit torrent is just as viable assuming anybody wants the file in question.
Get Plane Crazy up on there! We’ve been waiting years in England for a repeat showing.
This is all fine and well but we all know the *real* future is locked up in NerdTV Season 2. Where do we send money, Bob? We want to know who that first super-secret guest is and we’re not leaving!
Let’s see a Veetle app for my Droid, please.
Like the other commentors have said ahead of me, taking away control of what/when/how we watch content from users that have grown accustomed to that control (ie, the millions of us with a PVR solution of some sort, the millions of video pirates downloading and watching on their laptops whenever they like, the millions who mostly watch just DVDs they own or rent, etc etc) simply won’t work. That’s a large enough (and growing) segment of the population that there’s simply no putting the genie back in the bottle. Yes, there could be a nigh-infinite number of channels playing every conceivable bit of content, but it’s not the array of content but simple pause, rewind, and fast forward that’s the genie that will not go away and what Veetle is missing.
Also, your supposition seems to assume that Google’s bandwidth costs are a big reason why YouTube isn’t making money yet. The last time I heard anything about that, it was that Google owned enough fiber in the ground that they had some very nice peering exchange deals in place with their network neighbors, bringing their bandwidth costs down to nigh zero (see: http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/03/18/1214214/YouTubes-Bandwidth-Bill-May-be-Zero?art_pos=3 ). That means a greater portion of YouTube’s costs must be in the back-end, keeping all those servers running. A million Veetle channels would still require substantial backend hardware to keep everything running, although most of the heavy lifting would be from the content distributors themselves. Think of it as if everyone uploading to YouTube actually had to host that material themselves and YouTube was just the portal people use to access that content. That’s sort of what I take Veetle to be doing, only with live streams instead of on-demand content like on YouTube. Other than the P2P nature of how they’re doing their streaming, how would Veetle be any different from uStream, JustinTV, or any other similar live streaming website out there?
A few months ago I wondered why no one simply produces a TV shows and sells it directly to me, and forget about the advertisers/networks etc. A quick trip to iTunes showed it would cost between $250-$300 per year for me to buy all the shows I watch regularly. That is around half of my annual cable bill. I don’t know how much per advertising impression actually makes into the pockets of the TV show producers today, but I’m confident it is significantly less than what iTunes charges today.
The only reason I haven’t cancelled the cable is because my wife and sister in law still want “casual” viewing of whatever happens to be on.
If directly selling shows to viewers were the norm, I suspect that a) I could buy the shows I wanted for less than iTunes sells them today. b) the people making the shows would earn more money than they do today c) the people selling TV advertising will have to sell their big houses.
Veetle might be the perfect companion for this system. The two big problems that I see in making the switch to such a system are how to market the shows to potential purchasers, and how to address the casual viewing need. Setting up some free “un-recordable” channels to give away the first few episodes as “teasers”, and some channels that emulate today’s morning/afternoon cable schedules running old episodes interspersed with traditional ads should address both the needs very well.
If this system were in place worldwide I suspect there would be more money for niche shows as everyone with internet and an interest in X can effectively pool their money for a good quality show on the topic. And people could stop complaining about poor quality shows as all successful shows necessarily have an audience happy enough to pay for them.
What is Bob smoking???? That is clearly crazy… not being able to pause the content, how 20th century!
Question: is YouTube’s excessive costs mostly caused by the storage and distribution (bandwidth costs), or caused by the excessive licensing fees incurred by the RIAA, ASCAP, BMI, MPAA, and the various networks…who then turn around and still block things via DMCA on a regular basis (like, say, the loss of the original RickRoll video, which was removed even though Astley’s record sales haven’t been this high since the song was originally in the top ten – a perfect example of “free” acting as a brilliant, extremely cost-effective promotional tool (quite literally, something for nothing), and they took it down…)
Wow Bob, you really got this one wrong. It makes me wonder how well your Startup Tour will be handled if you don’t have a clue about the online video world which to me is pretty basic. Good luck Bob.
Word.
What do we want? TV shows on demand. What I want to watch. When I want to watch it. Fully controllable to pause, rewind and fast forward. We have that now so why would we want to go to a model where you have none of that control plus ads to boot?
In Canada we don’t get access to shows from Hulu or TV.com but iTunes has a full slate of shows.
Rethink your position Bob. Veetle isn’t what this consumer wants and apparently others share this opinion.
Hey this is great! I love this kind of discussion even if I am the guy who everyone thinks is wrong.
So let me clarify a bit. I am not at all saying that YouTube-type content is going away or that it is bad. I am not decrying TiVO boxes or rewind buttons. I download and view as much video as most of you, maybe more with my little kids and their Scooby-Doo fixation.
Having said that, there is a difference between expensive-to-produce content and cheap-to-produce content. Look at the thousands of how-to videos produced by companies like Demand Media, for example. They can make a great living on the YouTube model but it requires a production budget of under $500 per video.
If you want to spend more than $500 per video AND you want to make a profit on your work it is doubtful that the YouTube model will be very satisfactory for the content creator.
“Big deal,” you say, there’s plenty to watch on the Internet. Sure, we have a century of material contributed more-or-less by previous media eras. But one thing about that long tail is that is has a tip, an end. Once all the media that’s fit to watch is out there for watching, then new economic models of production click into place.
We’re already seeing declines in DVD sales. Maybe it is the bad economy, MAYBE NOT. Nobody knows for sure. But DVD is a third of the revenue for feature films. Take away a third of the money and three things happen: 1) most production budgets decline meaning less spectacle and possible less demand; 2) some producers will bet the ranch on blockbusters like Avatar, and; 3) these effects combine to reduce the total number of productions, reducing network effects and market penetration.
The movie business is probably dying as a result and doesn’t yet know it.
The answer is to find new business models that allow people to be both entertained and employed. I like Veetle. You don’t. Maybe I am wrong. Then suggest something better. Because none of you critics above me on this page have done that so far.
Show me something better.
It looked to me like ScottS did offer a good alternative with his $300/year direct purchase suggestion. I second that idea. I spend more than $700/yr on cable and I’d prefer to simply buy all my media direct, like a CD or a book. And NOT pay for all the crap channels I’ll never watch.
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The only thing keeping me paying for cable right now is the fact that I cannot buy Formula 1 performances on demand, directly.
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Once I can buy all I want, when I want it, I will do so; and Comcast can kiss their subscription revenue goodbye
The real reason DVD’s are declining in sales is the same reason CD sales have declined. The publishers did an excellent job of remastering their archives and we consumers finished upgrading our collections. Now CD and DVD sales are mostly limited to new releases rather than reissues.
I also won’t give up the consumer conveniences I’ve acquired in the last 35 years. Also there is almost nothing on broadcast TV that interests me, but I’ve found some useful, and even entertaining clips on YouTube.
It’s way more than that — PER TITLE DVD sales are down, way down. so it is not just that libraries are filled but that libraries are no longer BEING FILLED.
You are right that I missed that $300 per year subscription model. It looks like Apple is moving toward that with iTunes. I don’t think they bought Lala just to shut it down. But there will always be multiple business models and I think there remains room for one based on ad sales. More likely we’ll see some hybrid, because replacing a market that gets $700 from you with one that gets $300 isn’t going to be enough for Hollywood.
We built up a collection of VHS tapes. Then, in 1999, we switched to DVDs. Aside from a handful of movies, most get watched once or twice. We also ran out of room to store them. So now we only buy a few DVDs a year, and “rent” the rest.
And the leisure time that we have is finite, so every minute I spend reading your posts, or being on the internet, is a minute not spent watching DVDs or TV.
There is a post on Ed Felten’s excellent blog about how the recording industry might cope with technological advances of the foreseeable future.
http://freedom-to-tinker.com/blog/felten/infinite-storage-music
It doesn’t look good for the record companies. Felten is talking about 10 years in the future, and that post is from October of 2007. The only difference between music and movies is scale. It will take longer, but the same thing will happen to the movie business. So where does that leave us?
Probably at a place where it is no longer possible to become a multimillionaire from having nice hair and being able to carry a tune (or have an engineer who is handy with autotune). The same goes for movies as the era of big-budget blockbusters draws to a close. Music and movies will still be created, but by people who care about creating and not about getting rich. How will these creative people make a living? I’m sure they will think of something that we haven’t, after all they are creative.
I see a lot of parallels between the media in this future and the open source software of the present. All of those developers are still developing, and some of them are getting paid for it. Is there one big-picture “business model” that allows this to happen? Not really, as each developer’s situation is a little different. But they are all getting by and the patches keep getting submitted.
kz
“Take away a third of the money and three things happen: 1) most production budgets decline meaning less spectacle and possible less demand; 2) some producers will bet the ranch on blockbusters like Avatar, and; 3) these effects combine to reduce the total number of productions, reducing network effects and market penetration.
”
This strikes me as an amateurish understanding of Hollywood economics.
The price of most movies is driven by labor costs, and those labor costs are driven by people taking as much money as is available to be taken.
In other words, if fiat halves the amount of money available for the world movie budget, Tom Cruise et al have two choices: they can refuse to make movies because no-one will pay them $20 million a movie (in which case there are plenty of competitors, just as good looking, willing to take their place) or they can accept $10 million a movie. And so on all the way down.
Obviously there is a low-end at which people are making a middle-class wage, nothing more, along with irreducible production costs. But it is not those low-end items that drive the cost of most studio movies.
In other words making more money available to “the movie system” mostly increases the salaries of a few people at the high end. Conversely, making less money available decreases those salaries. The salaries of star actors, star directors, star writers is not a matter of ethics and morality, it’s a matter of power and history.
This holds true even for spectacle movies. These are basically chasing a certain budget — so many product tie-ins, so many eyeballs seeking spectacle. If we halve the dollars available to make spectacle, the rational response is to make halve as many spectacle movies, each costing just as much, but garnering (simplistically) twice as many viewers. This hardly strikes me as a tragic outcome for the world.
Especially for spectacle movies, half the budget, for example, is on advertising, much of which is fighting against the competing spectacle movies — half as many such movies means a much smaller advertising budget is acceptable, so you don’t even need twice as many viewers to break even.
Go read Edward Jay Epstein on movie economics, then come back to us. You seem to have a very broken model of where movie money comes from, what movie money is spent on, and how both of these would respond to dramatic changes.
The main demographic who wants control, and on-demand content is internet nerds. I’d wager that the vast majority of people want to veg-out and soak up whatever happens to be on.
I cant get veetle to work. what a sucky site! I’ll take you tube / hulu any day.
The TV biz doesn’t make money from viewers (HBO excepted, DVD resale of TV content excepted). It makes money from advertisers.
Google has ruthlessly slashed the price of advertising in every medium it operates. its the Wal*Mart of advertising – constantly trying to reduce the price as a competitive advantage.
Who cares if YouTube lost money, barely breaks even, or shows a small profit? What Google cares about is what is the trendline. If the trendline says that in a rational timeframe they’ll be making $20 billion (or more), then the model is just fine. They have no cost pressure forcing them to increase that slope and no investor pressure forcing managers to sacrifice long term value for short term gain. From where I sit, YouTube seems to be incubating just fine.
TV “networks” are artifacts of a lost era. The sooner they die, the better. Just moving from one distribution medium to another isn’t the solution. The solution is getting paid for making great content (where “great” is defined as “popular with lots of monetizable viewers”)
RyanD
Yes, but I’ve been covering this exact topic now for 13 year and there isn’t yet a clear answer to the problem. We have viewers and we have producers and yes it would be fabuloso to connect them directly together in such a way that the middlemen are all eliminated and everyone could get more content for less money. But it hasn’t happened yet. There is no micropayment, no download, no steaming service, no subscription model that clearly works as of today. I’ve written that this kind of stabilization often takes 30 years, so maybe we are only halfway there. It isn’t easy.
Agree with Bob that content providers do not want to be in the retail business. There was a great blog post last week or so that convinced me that the pay-per-view or per-show subscription model is still a long ways off (yes, I tried to find it, but no luck). Basically the best model for content providers right now is develop a must-have show (think “Ice Road Truckers” on History Channel) then collect a monthly fee from the distrubutors (cable and satellite) for each and every subscriber, regardless of whether they actually watch your show. Which is better, a dollar from each of your loyal viewers, or a dime from everyone?
Bob,
I think you’ve really missed the mark here. People put up with unskippable commercials on Hulu because there are only one or two commercials in a show. But otherwise, people used to DVRs and DVD players will never go back to passively watching content where they can’t skip the boring parts, rewind to parts they missed (because they were distracted or some external event interrupted their viewing), or even pause to allow them to go to the bathroom without missing anything.
I think people will tolerate a few targeted unskippable commercials per half hour of programming, but one of the reasons DVRs are so popular is because the networks have loaded programming with too many commercials, most of which are irrelevant and annoying.
If anybody can figure out how to target relevant commercials to viewers, it would be Google. Maybe you don’t see YouTube today as a viable platform, and maybe it never will be, but I suspect the future will look less like Veetle than you think.
You may be right. I HOPE you are right. But I don’t think you are right.
I agree with Jason! that people will not give up the control they have with TiVo without some fair trade off. I use my DVR to skip commercials, and therefore can watch an hour show in less than 50 minutes, pause at will, and resume where I left off at another time( even another day). I can watch a short comedy such as The Big Bang Theory in about 22 minutes, with the ability to rewind and hear jokes over again in case I missed something.
How many people have blocks of time to sit through and watch TV and movies straight every time they want to watch entertainment?
And how much of the TV audience uses TiVO? TiVO subscriptions peaked in 2006 and are down to under three million. That’s for a market with 110 million homes. total DVR market penetration is under 10 million and that includes my mother-in-law who doesn’t even know her DirecTV box HAS a DVR.
Not skipping commercials, not pausing, and not rewinding is the norm for the vast majority of Americans. Remember even YouTube’s numbers work out to an average audience of 2.4 million viewers and peak around 11 million — fewer people than are watching Two-and-a-Half Men.
Totally agree with Bob here. Most of my family have a DVR built into their Cable or Dish boxes yet NONE of them use it and don’t even realize that they HAVE a DVR.
YouTube does have a lot of crap and honestly I don’t even see how they even break even as I surely don’t click on any of the ads there.
-Paul
So I can accept that it’s possible that you may need to force no fast forwarding during commercial periods in a show if a medium is going to be profitable. What I don’t understand is why a company needs to know and enforce that if I want to see a show, I need to have my butt in seat at 8:30 PM EST on monday. As far as I’m concerned, there’s literally *zero* content worth forcing me to adapt my schedule around the content on a sustained basis. It’s a deal breaker. My schedule is my schedule, and if you as a content producer can’t offer me a way to consume your show at 11:00 pm when I get home from work (or on a weekend, or whenever I happen to find time to consume it) then the answer is that I simply put won’t consume it at all.
Having enough control over the media stream to block fast forwarding over the messages of your commercial sponsors is more then enough to build an income stream. There’s simply put no reasonable business case for dictating a person’s daily/weekly schedule to them just so they can consume from you.
That’s why I suggested a Veetle channel for every episode.
Okay – this dude has been phoning this column in for about 3 months now.
He used to provide valuable insight – now – it’s like maybe his wife is writing the column or something.
You’re officially off my RSS reader list.
Thanks for reading.
i gotta to agree…
the column was always something of an outside view, but now its just
wishful thinking
i mean – the analysis could have been written 5 years ago, and guess what, about
10 well funded (and maybe 100s of under funded) companies have tried and failed
to execute this model
conclusion – the model sucks
as to the future – the content industry will have to reset itself to a (much?) lower
revenue level.. analysis over.
It *might* make some of it on larger volume (think china/india) and lower
costs (eliminate the physical product, maybe even p2p)..
But mainly we will simply see actors/producers working harder for less.
I love Veetle! – but only for live sports. I watched all the Miami Dolphins games this season and am now enjoying the NBA playoffs. The quality isn’t great, but the price is. They need to get the quality up and then start offering package or alacarte deals and reasonable prices (1$ per game). That would be killer.
That said, for regular shows there is now way I want to be tied to their schedule or even and hourly loop schedule.
But Veetle doesn’t HAVE a schedule. It’s just a pipe. Users create channels and those channels have schedules but Veetle has nothing to do with it. It’s just an enabling technology.
Semantics I’m well aware of what Veetle is.
Veetle can’t get around the schedule problem for non-live content as you are just realizing. You lose.
Here’s what we are doing in New Zealand with internet TV
zilntv
I think you’re spot on with this. I don’t watch a lot of TV. When I do, it’s usually because I’m tired and bored. I want to be entertained. I don’t want to choose. I just just want to turn on the TV and watch. I don’t even mind ads too much, as long as there are not too many. This would be ideal. I opened up one of the movie channels and star wars was on. “Great!” I thought “I’ll watch that” It was halfway through but that’s okay. I just wanted to watch something decent. Not 3 minutes of crap that I could rewind.
JP, you took the words right out of my mouth. Mostly, I turn on the TV, like you, when I am tired and bored and just want to watch something I don’t hate without a lot of fanfare.
Generally, I will gravitate to a movie, even if it’s in the in the middle, because I want to zone out without having to think much.
My job requires me to make myriad decisions all day long, so to relax I generally prefer to just pick a channel (one likely to have stuff I don’t hate) and then let it go; let someone else make the decisions for awhile.
BTW, I cannot STAND reality TV, so these days, choices are getting limited, but that’s a whole other rant.
The future of tv and movies is torrents. Torrents don’t tell you when you can watch something, what you can watch or shove ads in. People like YouTube because it is free and easy. As soon as people want to keep a copy/watch it later/burn to dvd/watch on their tv, they will download a torrent. A paid torrent site might not work in the long run, but it would be a start to getting something working. It has to be as easy or almost as easy to pay for the content as pirate it. This is the reason Apple was forced to remove DRM on their music. So far users (unfortunately) have been as fussy (or Hollywood is more stupid than the music industry) about their movies. Until I can pay to download DRM free movies that I can watch at any time, any where on any device in my house I (and everyone under the age of 30) will still pirate.
So, you expect we’ll all happily return to the days of “pre VCR”, sit back down on the couch and watch the programming when the broadcaster tells me to?
Um, no thanks.
The youtube content may or may not be a lot of crap, but 2 Billion users per day are just fine with that crap. They could go back to their cable right now and just sit and watch what ever’s on without Veetle already. But. They’re. Not.
I think you’re off on this one, and so do 2 billion youtube customers.
Ah, but there AREN’T two billion YouTube customers! There aren’t two billion daily Internet users on Earth for that matter.
YouTube claims two billion daily downloads. They say nothing about downloads per user or at what point in those downloads the user stopped watching. They DO say the average video is 3:30 long so I used that figure. In terms of maximum audience size the largest number I’ve seen for YouTube is about 11 million. The mean channel capacity based on their numbers is 2.4 million streams. We could take a guess about the average number of daily viewers and I’d place it at no more than 200 million and probably substantially less. That’s a lot of people, mind you, but as a number accumulated through a 24 hour period it is still substantially less than any of the U.S. broadcast networks.
So, if 11 million users make a combined 2 billion downloads per day, that comes out to an average of 181 downloads per user, per day?!?
Even if a small contingent were downloading the lion’s share of those daily 2 billion, that’s a LOT of downloads per user. Myself, I generally look at between 3 and 10 before I get tired of it. My teenaged son, who spends a great deal of time with YouTube, maybe downloads 50-100 at a sitting, which I thought was a lot, before.
Somehow, I have a hard time believing the 2 billion downloads per day figure.
Tivo and Me.
I don’t know about others but for me I just couldn’t get my head around paying each month for a guide. I loved my Tivo when I got it and I used it for a while but eventually the novelty wore off and there was that monthly subscription thing. Nowadays I get my shows pretty much on demand through torrents, iTunes or through websites (CBC, CTV, etc.)
My parents have a cable box with a built in DVR and my mother makes good use of it. They pay each month for it but there is the perception that there is more value because the box is also the cable tuner which you need anyway. Even if it it essentially a Tivo (with a less intuitive remote).
Tivo’s days may be done. They make a great product which is easy to use and if you don’t mind paying for the monthly guide it’s perfect. But nowadays there are so many alternatives. In some ways I think their model is flawed. Maybe if Tivo gave you the guide for free but let you pay for individual content?
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I believe there is a way to create a profitable Internet TV with all the control the savvy user has grown to love. Let’s face it it WILL be the savvy user that leads the way, the people that don’t know what a DVR is will follow in a few years.
Google must create “googleTV”. A service where google buys content and streams this content then sells the targeted ads it places in the shows (or movies or live events).
Why Google? Simple, they have the cash to pay for the content (like current cable companies), they have the networks to handle the bandwidth and they have the advertising know-how. They’ve even released the codec (webM) so it would be fully cross-platform. Everyone wins.
Viewers get DVR like streaming for free.
Advertisers get directed, quantifiable ads.
Content creators get to relax and enjoy the incoming money.
And cable companies can charge more for Internet bandwidth! (because we’ll need it)
You must have a Crystal Ball or insider information.
Google announced Google TV today (https://www.google.com/tv/).
GoogleTV in partnership with the usual suspects namely Sony, Intel and Adobe.
Yet another choice.
Robert, you say “show me something better”. Well, here is my first attempt. Critique as you will.
First, I asked myself, “Why can’t Veetle just incorporate a pause and rewind button on their player?” I actually don’t know the answer to this question, but my guess is that it is because, in order to pause, the computer would need to buffer the video content and putting anything in memory immediately makes it more prone to cracking and copying. Am I correct on this assumption?
Assuming I am, what Veetle would need to do is simply find an intermediary computer the user did not have access to that could hold the video in memory while the user needed to pause the video. The intermediary computer would then stream the video to the user as they wish with the same copy protections that they you say they already have in place.
So where would such an intermediary computer be stored? How about at a neighbors house? In fact, how about if within each neighborhood there was one or two elected houses to become server farms. Each neighborhood could lay its own fiber as and when it chooses to (because no amount of bandwidth is ever enough) and the neighborhood server farms could be run in a co-op fashion.
Because the popularity of media will always follow a power law distribution (pareto curve) the server farm could also hold 1080p lossless video of the blockbuster movies as well as lower quality video (and music!) that is less popular. It could also act as a neighborhood firewall and antivirus gate. Maybe it would set up exchange servers for those of us who are worried about Google collecting all the information in our email. And because the physical hardware and people who run it would be located in the neighborhood, there might be at least a little more accountability.
This intermediary company could make money offering lots of services, only one of which would be buffering video from a p2p stream put out by a company like Veetle. They could be held accountable for not letting the video be copied ad infinitum, users would be able to pause, and the whole worlds video production would be at everyones finger tips.
Problem solved? Just a thought. Would love to hear what you have to think about it.
Cheers,
Michael
Bob. I’m afraid I find your assumption that the future of anything is doomed to be determined by greedy people wanting to extract profit out of it ultimately depressing. If that’s all we have to look forward to, let’s blow up the planet now! What is the point of inventing all the technology behind the internet and our amazing electronic devices if it all has to be hobbled to suit the simple minded commercial world. Bob, you are a true Luddite!
With respect to TV there has to come a time when people will no longer accept being patronised by advertizing geeks who are stupider than they are.
Remember, once upon a time people thought that the future of software was doomed to be constrained by commercial stupidity and look how that’s view is being overturned. The open source model is spreading to other things all the time. Why not TV?
To think that a veetle stream can’t be recorded is increatibly neive. There are several solutions to that already and more can be written.
On pausing the live stream that can be added easily on that client side just like a dvr does. The point of veetle is that it is p2p just like that the several other failed video streaming sites. It costs veetle very little because they only need to seed the popular streams. But because the clients are sharing they have to stay in sync while downloading. However ther is nothing stopping adding a client side buffer between streaming and playback.
Btw interesting that they play down p2p as much as possible.
Hate to break it to you, but _anything_ that goes over the Internet can be recorded. Period. It’s just a matter of how.
RealMedia, Podcasts, H.264 streams, Flash – it’s all just a matter of finding the file that is being hosted. Know how to read the file, and you can download it directly. And, if you can’t do that, you can always just direct the output of the feed to a file. These were always simple hacks as it has a text-based interface to tell the listeners what file to access when; put it in binary and it’ll still be a simple hack.
You may say “Well, their plug-in prevents that” – and you’d be mighty wrong. It’s just a matter of time ’til someone unravels it – and unravel they will, and it won’t be long, especially if it becomes a major content distributor. Microsoft tried to play games with CIFS as SMB; but along came Samba and reverse engineered the whole thing, they even had a pretty good track history of having compatibility with new modifications within a year BEFORE buying access to the specifications from Microsoft.
So to say Veetle can’t be recorded is just plain ignorant.
As Apple has gotten into saying “There’s an app for that.”
We’ve already got pay services to buy or rent TV shows and movies.
iTunes and Amazon Unbox are the ones I use.
I use mostly the latter because it is conveniently included on my Tivo where it supplements my HD over-the-air viewing.
OMG!! An all A-TEAM channel! I have found nirvanna……
That’s it. I’m goona have to check it out when I get home.
I am surprised that no one’s discussed much about live streaming like sports, which to me is what Veetle is all about? I am a huge Veetle fan because you just can’t get the same quality anywhere else. I mean if you are like me who’s always scouring the net for live sports streams, you just get blown away by the responsiveness and quality of the Veetle streams (some of them are in near HD). I’d watch for hours and the stream just stays smooth and crystal clear. There’s just no contest when compared with say Justin.tv or Ustream.tv. (I suppose the p2p part allows them to up the quality a lot higher than the competition.) Certainly there’s the question of content legality but I hope the content providers will come around like they did with YouTube and just go with the flow and just make use of it — instead of reinventing something far inferior.
Craig has hit on the points that I think most of the comments ignored. Veetle is a real time streaming site, so its very different from what YouTube is about, which is consuming video that is saved for viewing later.
Also, the streaming quality is what makes Veetle stand out and that’s why people gravitate to it. There are some low-streaming channels on Veetle but that’s apparently due to the client specs of the person putting the video up on Veetle.
I think the Veetle and YouTube can co-exist. Which will be a better vehicle for the content owners is the question that Bob was getting at. I don’t see YouTube changing its colors and working with content owners in a meaningful way. Veetle seems to be better positioned to help the content owners to get their content online while providing a means to monetize.
Bob,
Are you going to post the NerdTV episodes on Veetle? Is their a way to watch them now? I would love to see them, just not on YouTube or some shoddy version that is compressed down to Blur-O-Vision™.
To clarify what I meant by watching nerdtv on veetle would be full quality. I realize you can watch them on PBS internet, but they are far from full quality with pretty low quality audio and video…
Interesting but if I can’t pause or record I will never respect nor use this service. Never in a trillion years no matter content they have (even NerdTV). I’d rather stare at an empty wall and go insane, alone with my own thoughts.
Here’s how I see the future of TV: You have a service like iTunes where you can pick and choose, but with a subscription type service.
For example, a typical cable bill is about $65 for basic cable service. Imagine if you could get the three networks, the Comedy Channel, CNN, etc. to agree to let users pick and chose their content, watch it as much as they want, rewind/fast forward, etc. for …say… $50 per month.
You could easily get an audience of 20 million (there are 100+ million cable TV subscribers in the U.S. now and over 100+ million homes with access to get high speed internet connections). That would give you a billion dollars per month in revenue. With that much revenue, you might even get rid of the need for commercials.
In fact, commercials are the bane of Internet TV right now. We have to make sure users can’t skip through them, and we have to make sure users are paying attention to them. On the Internet, they may be going off reading their email. And, advertisers aren’t convinced that Internet viewers are worth paying for. Hulu, despite some success still hasn’t been able to get enough commercial revenue. (How many Hulu shows are brought to you by the Ad Council?).
Heck, get rid of the need for commercials, and TV can get really interesting. With advertising, every show must be a blockbuster. Otherwise, you’re not getting enough advertisers. What you end up getting is a lot of bland, copycat TV shows all trying to push the same successful formula.
In a subscription model, TV shows succeed by hooking in not the same group of subscribers, but different groups of subscribers. A particular show might not be extremely popular, but if it pulls in unique subscribers, it makes money for the network.
We’ve been believing that content must be free in order to be successful. Hulu has tried that model. Youtube has tried that model, and now Veetle. We have simply fallen for that “Information wants to be free” baloney.
But, that’s not what has happened in the entertainment community. Look at cable TV. a few decades ago, it was mainly used in areas where broadcast TV signals were weak. Over the decade, cable TV subscription price has skyrocketed. Yet, at the same time, the number of subscribers have grown astronomically. People are willing to pay hard earned cash for something they originally assumed was free. Look how well Netflix is doing. Look at iTunes.
Most people are willing to pay quite a bit of money for easy to use and easy to get content. What Internet TV needs to think of is that they’re competing against cable and charge accordingly. And, unlike cable, you can see whatever program when you want at any time. And, maybe without all those commercials. You can skip forward, scroll back, and play the show incessantly. You can have your own Star Trek marathons. Any time you want.
In fact, freed from a time schedule, a network could offer as much or as little content it wanted. There’s no need for filling 168 hours of round the clock TV. There’s no need to wonder if you can get a sponsor at 3am. Heck, throw in some of those “classic” shows from the 1950s and 1960s. Add some Japanese game shows. They’re dirt cheap, and they will get you even more subscribers.
The future of TV is subscription Internet service. It guarantees ad revenue that “free content” can never provide. The trick is putting together a package and getting corporate suits to understand it.
Netflix ‘watch instantly’ provides me with essentially my personal VOD tv channel. If they added tv content e.g. shows/news then I’d have no need for cable/terrestrial anymore. They could add an ad supported free service for people who don’t mind watching ads (which can be highly targeted). They could build some peer to peer capacity into the set top boxes without anybody even realizing and then they’ve distributed the bandwidth demands across the network. New internet enabled tv’s will be able to run netflix internally (no stb) and with no setup required by the user. Seems like we’re pretty close to personalized ip tv already as soon as the content providers get on board with the new reality.
Eleven content categories? Many channels with no program schedule? No search box? These guys better look at Craigs list to get a realistic idea of the scale of categories and searching that will be needed for Veetle to become a useful source of programming for people other then nerds.
Even then, I don’t think my TV watching would increase significantly. There are just too many other good things to do with life.
[…] Cringely thinks the future is Veetle. Think of Veetle as cable TV delivered through the internet. BTW most of the people commenting to Cringely’s post disagree with him. But they generally agree that something new is needed. […]
wow this is fantastic could this replace cable i think so
In the UK we now have SeeSaw.com where you can watch real TV programmes without any IP worries. OK there are ads – but people are putting up with it just to watch and watch again the stuff they are actually interested in, when they want to see it. Soon we will also be able to rent or subscribe to watch without ads.
I’m sure Bob wants to put plane crazy up on SeeSaw, and this way he can make some revenue to fund further programme making.
OK – I am involved with SeeSaw, and yes this is a shameless plug 🙂
Some websites (e.g. SyFy.com) have something similar, but they only keep up a certain number of episodes at a time – for SyFy.com, it’s the most 5 recent episodes. I don’t mind the ads, though at least SyFy.com’s ad rotation needs work; but it’d be a lot better if they at least kept a whole season up at a time. I caught wind of Star Gate Universe after the first 2 episodes of season 1 were already off the website so I never got to see them; though considering I pretty much bought all the DVDs of SG-1 and Atlantis, I’ll get to see them too eventually once we buy those DVDs too.
But to the point – having a TV broadcaster host a website where they provide the shows with ads is perfectly acceptible to most people, and would be a good replacement for broadcast TV. But you still need to be able to pause/rewind/etc. the episodes. (SyFy.com does allow that!)
NBC, CBS, and ABC have similar things; though their site requirements differ. Any requiring Silverlight won’t make it; Flash may be; but they’d be best off with HTML5+WebM in the future.
I don’t watch TV any more in the traditional sense. It started when my wife went to school and we were stretched thin on income. My TV died and I couldn’t afford to replace it. I dropped my cable to basic basic, returned the cable box and when the TiVo subscription ran out I cancelled it. I am about to cancel cable entirely as the Internet gives me all I need. I have Boxee hooked up to a smaller TV or I just use Boxee on a computer. I buy a couple of season passes for top tier iTunes shows but just scrape and view with Boxee. I have a few weeks at least before ABC, NBC, CBS, pull web content from their sites so I can watch when I want.
I control my time not the TV broadcast schedule. I have choice and I have pause. Boxee is just an aggregator that scrapes content and gives you central control of your streamed video.
I have time to GASP read a book or play music. I get my news online. I play games.
I want to ultimately get all my content from the Net on demand. With commercials if it keeps it free. Buying high quality content from iTunes or other sources. PrimeTime is not my time. I hate that I can’t Ala Carte the channels I want from cable and have to go with a package.
My future of IPTV would be
http://freetubetv.net
Needs some type of search and tv guide though.
And yes porn there is pretty hot.
wwwpirate said: “My future of IPTV would be….”
your joking right , your having a laugh ?, that site and SO MANY like it are utter crep….
virtually all the streams at your given URL are super low CIF or worse mpeg2 or super fuzzy divx/Xvid codec encodes of such low quality and bitrate their not even worth watching on even a low screen size as you might find on a generic mobile phone.
up-scaled to a basic PC 20″ LCD monitor or HD TV makes these streams worthless and a total waste of download and the streamers Unicast upload bandwidth
veetle and x264 AVC/H.264 are the ONLY option Today if your care about visual quality at a given lower bitrate as supplied by your ISP, end of story….
I’m done with cable tv. Now that my 3 year old has outgrown Nick Jr and moved onto the other kid channels, he is being bombarded with really obnoxious ads ALL THE TIME. Veetle sounds kinda futurey and stuff but I’ll check it out.
What other options are people using to get off cable? Roku? NetFlix? Amazon? This is my plan to cut the coax but would love to hear if there are better options.
Your amigo, Esteban!
Veetle is no friend of the internet community. It appears there is nothing Veetle can do about filtering, password protecting or separating your family from live streaming Porn. Sounds hot huh? Not really. These secret broadcasters only have to place an innocent thumbnail and click there it is. A tonsil close-up of some bedraggled woman in a cheesy motel room. Whoops! Too late. Your son, mother and wife witness the bottom of the porn barrel. There is no control. The family filter is a joke. Thats right. You have no control options. Veetle provides no self-regulating; no intention of self-regulating and the crap will continue. No, I am not a prude but please make my porn private.
Fortunately enough I´m not a new born christian or any other kind of fanatic. The point being is that I can care less if my mother or my husband sees some lite porn.
My only concern will be with my daughter, but luckily she is old enough to have seen some tits already and she only tunes in channels that I tell her so.
On the other hand I never saw hard core porn in Veetle so again, I don´t care about censorship of parental control which never worked fine anyway.
I also disagree with your view of making “your porn private”. Maybe that is your real problem: you want to keep everything for yourself, even sex. C’mon get out of the closet and practice some good healthy sex with your wife and stop banging you penis.
What planet are you on Darleene? What you call lite porn can only be described as trash. In Darleene’s world a live stream menage d t oral climax is considered LITE and appropriate for mix company viewing. Oh, you missed that one? Well, stay tuned. I’m sure click considerations will determine reviving those popular old time favorites called, “Lite Porn”.
I do believe we live in the same planet, but one thing is sure: we don´t watch the same Veetle.
I have been watching many channels for many months here and never ever had seen any LITE PORN or otherwise.
What the heck are you talking about? Benny Hill?
So that makes me wonder where you get your paycheck from. Warner? Sony?
FO
[…] I, Cringely » Blog Archive » TV after YouTube […]
I really like netflix. Stick it on DVD and send out the damn disc. User base of everyone in the country practically. Technology cost of $20 for a DVD player. Distribution cost of ~50cents. Subscription based.
Plus watch instantly, which actually saves them
money because the postage stamp and handling physical items is more expensive.
They could easily overlay a micropayment system. I’m not sure what the DVD / streaming redistribution for rental laws / contracts are. But content providers can get paid.
Remember that netflix also has a content production company and they make some content –low budget but the content isn’t crap.
Just like I have no idea how pro sports athletes make so much money (actually, have you noticed how much more ad time there is during games compared to 20 years ago?), bigtime stars and big budget movies will still be made so long as they make money. And people will still go to the movies even if the price goes
to $20.
What amazes me is that there is still much of a new movie market. New movies, if they competed against old movies, would mostly lose. I think this is the greater reality. Old episodes of a -team, lost, 90s movies— these are pretty good and don’t require the huge extra costs of new production.
But it’s not just a question of content being good. A big part of the western world wants to make sure they’re watching what everyone else is watching. and new movies and tv shows succeed at coordinating water cooler talk. With this said, even network tv will keep surviving for another generation.
Then we will get so used to the fragmentation of tv and movie interests, maybe we won’t need networks and movie studios to tell us what’s good. Hahaha. That won’t happen. Even as we celebrate individuality in social networking,etc. We still want our clans, our leaders, and the mimicry which will be defined by the sports or programs we consume.
P2p might be the tech that runs the future, but I think the tech isn’t the key to what content model succeeds. Though getting costs down is important. Google probably has some p2p protocol worked out where a central server will help with bandwidth if the peers are unreliable. But getting people to participate in that gets iffy; remember that skype tried to do that at one point and it backfired. Google might be willing to buy your excess bandwidth, but it’s much cheaper to just procure it themselves. Sure–bandwidth to the home is “free”, but if they rolled out something that used up all the excess bandwidth, they’d either get blocked, force the ISP to change their pricing plan, or run the ISPs out of biz. P2p is not great for content delivery at the google scale without having ISPs reconsider their pricing.
Hey BOB Did you not see the SAP?Sybase thing coming?
So how is Veetle better/different than Justin.Tv? Or is it just the free porn or do you have a thing against paul graham funded startups?
I’m afraid they aren’t going anywhere if they can’t pay for the bandwith to be covered from getting featured on a blog.
I just watched some Netflix HD titles on a Vizio 55″ with its built in Netflix app and it was damn impressive. I swear I couldn’t tell the difference between that and Blu-Ray. That having been said, the first thing my kid sister asked me is if the Vizio had a built in YouTube app.
Most countries in the third world never respects intellectual property rights. piracy is so rampant in asian countries.'”‘
Veetle was good at the beginning but recently it keeps freezing and you never see the channels actually. They should improve the veetle or put it away and give up.
Veetle should partner up with PlayON. Veetle would be the perfect addition to the playon media server lineup. Veetle is one of my favorite websites providing the BEST Internet HD content on the net hands down. I even have went out and purchased a Quad 4 new PC with HDMI video out connections because I am so impressed with the picture quality that Veetle can provide. Playon and Veetle are the future of TV in my opinion. Check it out there for a free 14 day trial for PlayOn at https://www.playon.tv/playon With the skyrocketing cost of Cable DVR and rental fees, I was able to downgrade my cable bill by over $130 a month and still have wonderful televsion content, in this case even more choices than my Cable company could ever offer. Anyone who has a Playstation 3, Xbox , or any DLNA compatible device needs to take the time to try out this new technology that PlayOn can provide. Trust me its worth the time to try this out especially in this economy it can save you a lot of money off your present monthly viewing bills. If Veetle becomes part of the PlayOn lineup all I got say to is it will be a HUGE homerun for those who want to CUT the cable or take down that satellite dish. The internet TV revolution is well under way and is a viable threat to the Cable and Satellite services that we have today as the original cable service that came online back in the late 1970’s was to free Network TV. I watch over 85% of my viewing on by big screen HDTV’s through the Playon media server on 2 PS3’s and 1 Xbox and my dedicated PC that I use for Veetle viewing. Give it a try you might be very surprised at whats available. Veetle PLEASE partner up with PlayON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jack
Why should I buy PlayOn when I can watch it all for free on diffenent channels. For instance I watch Burn Notice and these programs are available free. NCIS , Daly, msnbc. I want internet not television
Mike in response to your comments, it is very true at times that channels freeze and it becomes upseting trying to watch. You have to remember that the broadcasters are people just like you and me that are trying to provide content and it all boils down to their uploading PC processing power, their internet bandwidth upstream power and then on the the viewers side the internet download power and their PC processing power. These dynamics all have to come together perfectly for the streams to work flawlessly. When I first started using veetle there were only about 20 channels running max about 10 months ago. Now that that they have become popular the streams have increased by 500% to at times well over 100 channels. As far as I know The Veetle servers have been upgraded once and Im sure they will have to do it again. I notice problems with freezing and such once they hit the 100 channels on their servers. Hopefully this will be addressed soon to once more make Veetle the best it can be!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob, I went and checked out veetle.com on your recommendation. I feel like I’ve been lured into Napster and should go get a lawyer Just In Case. I had a great time watching 15 or 20 minutes of “2001”, then started to think to myself, “what’s the license model for this stuff?” It seems to be the usual file sharing situation, where you post video you have hanging around and hope no RIAA Nazis or similar are hanging out. I read the EULA and saw nothing up front about what you could or could not post. (Maybe there’s something additional for those who DO post.) I dunno; guys like you are capable of greater levels of abstraction and have greater vision than I do. But veetle scares me.
I am fortunate to have found this web page. Keep up the knowledgeable postings.
Wow .. I just checked the site and I can say that this is the greatest collection of unlicensed video streams I have ever seen. How long will these guys stay out of trouble ? It seems that not one channel is user generated content. Every one of them is pirated !
You lost me at:
“a continuous stream of programming that can’t be interrupted, paused, or changed and can’t be very easily recorded, either.”
Go sell it to the Flintstones; in the modern world interruptible media that can be played on my schedule & device of choice is as essential as a phone without wires…
All these people who are replying thinking they are are so tech savy if you just heard of veetle through this article you are way way way way way way way behind.
Batch extract audio from a video file (FLV to MP3; MPEG to MP3; AVI to MP3 …)
Muy interesante! Aprendí mucho leyéndolo, muchas gracias. Por si te interesa, yo administro un sitio con articulos sobre Televisiones Baratas.
So I’m wondering what you think about GoogleTV and the youTube LeanBack app.
But, audio does not work on Veetle 90% of the time.
And when writing to veetle.com, have never received reply…
all good and well to say the future is veetle.
when i try and stream veetle it pixel outs to max, streams i
try and watch just ‘stop, freeze or pixel up some…
but on the other hand….
justin tv doesn’t do any of this.
veetle being the future of tv is a ‘pretty good furfy’ i reckon
I am not sure if anyone else have experienced this. Yesterday when I was happily watching a world cup live match, the broadcast suddenly stopped in the midst of the game and a message said that content was in breach of copyright.
The other lower quality streaming sites have not been interupted this way as far as I had experienced. Of course the other sites streaming quality is bad.
@ way2graphic, you said, “Veetle is no friend of the internet community. It appears there is nothing Veetle can do about filtering, password protecting or separating your family from live streaming Porn. Sounds hot huh? Not really. These secret broadcasters only have to place an innocent thumbnail and click there it is. A tonsil close-up of some bedraggled woman in a cheesy motel room. Whoops! Too late. Your son, mother and wife witness the bottom of the porn barrel. There is no control. The family filter is a joke. Thats right. You have no control options. Veetle provides no self-regulating; no intention of self-regulating and the crap will continue. No, I am not a prude but please make my porn private.”
All I can add is according to Veetle website application available on ipod and ipad. What kid would be without their ipod? Yea, Veetle in the hands of minors is a problem for concerned parents.
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Peer-to-Peer Porn Via Damster-Dam. Until a week ago, Veetle had been a mix of ranchy porn for the realllly kinky and a fine assortment of films from the not too distant past. Even though it was absolutly worthless, the family filter has been removed. Curiously, the ‘Mature’ link is missing and a noticible lack of ‘Latest Movies”- me thinks pirated- are being broadcasted. These signs could mean a signal that Veetle plans to set up it’s porn entity on a separate site and allow us to go to the movies on our terms not the pornographers. We will see.
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“Veetle appears from my vantage point to be a peer-to-peer video distribution system that most closely parallels the current cable TV model except applied to the Internet.”
actually Your wrong,it is NOT a P2p service in any form, veetle IS a generic antiquated Client/Server model were an end user broadcaster uploads at up-to their Max ISP given upload rate to the veetle servers and that relays the channel information data to the browser plug-in that is all…..
the key part here , i wont call it innovative as its not, is the fact that veetle executive took the trouble to use existing generic VLC (Video LAN https://www.videolan.org/vlc/ )code and browser plug-in re-brand/re-wrap it into the basic client/server web server relay model with html GUI front end, and actually put it up on the web-side Co-Location Site for free access to all end users to make use of and that is a very good thing.
you can stream anything you have available within 30 seconds of wanting to, even from a 3G web connected laptop web-cam or HD cam with 52Kbit/s upload rate or better. at a very good visual quality BECAUSE veetle also encourage end user broadcasters to use the free x264 AVC/H.264 encoder included inside the VLC browser wrapper or an external app if you prefer, not crappy and massive bandwidth taking antiquated CODEC alternatives, that’s why you can see and stream Your Own High visual quality HD video’s as you please IF you have enough upload bandwidth available to your use (1Mbit/s + upload rate and AVC x264 gives really good results if you feed it a good quality input ,end of story)
now veetle actually running as this client/server model could be a very good thing IF THEY Actually did it write and actually innovated this antiquated model as could others…. veetle need to patch and submit back to the VLC codebase Multicast tunnelling code and allow related SAP (Session Announcement Protocol) control to flow over these veetle supplied multicast tunnels end points to and from any end users running the app and interacting with a future veetle multicast tunnel API.
everyone win’s if they make this part simple and automatic , the worlds ISP’s refuse to allow web side multicast to all, so tunnel your single veetle multicast content over veetle tunnels and the bandwidth savings are MASSIVE for all involved…. throw in a real feedback comment channel with advanced options, that doesn’t disappear when the video channel goes down to refresh and take you annoyingly back to the front page, and write code patchs to display video meta data and overlay real-time text and adding to the schedule without the need to restart and your on a winner if you don’t piss your end users off to much by killing their streams without warning etc, and get some veetle employees in the actual channels helping and informing users to stop using crap quality files as their input, my pet hate given you are transcoding to the highest quality AVC for a given low bitrate so feed it some quality input to start with and keep that quality…..
Just like justintv I think people should make a profit as should a site like veetle.
But if you want to be TV cable or Sat. then I simplywould go back there, same with NetFlix, when you add up the costs it amounts to gouging. The trademark of all businesses now. I’m watching you at this time because justin is filling the screen with annoying ads and the crappy crawls.
Again I think a site should make a profit but does it have to be billions? Does it have to be done with IN YOUR FACE crap on the screen or can it be more subtle?
There is brains enough in America to figure these things out without the underlying greed sneaked into the mix.
Keep up the good work, I’ve watched these things come and go and the reason they go is the internet is NOT TV.
Support internet neutrality.
Regards
Bill Dunlap
Took a look at the site today and it doesn’t look like there are porn videos. Checked out the forums on the site and people were talking about the lack of porn videos.
You are right. Porn is gone for now. Veetle cleaned up its site of porn after many complaints. I also read the counter protest from porn broadcasters.They are foaming at the bit to broadcast this and not at all entertaining. The usual reaction upon viewing was, WTF is that s*** ! But if thats your bag there is plenty of it elsewhere…maybe not as raunchy.
Apologies from Veetle moderator after letting a porn thumbnail get past moderator. Viewers need to rattle a cage once and a while as veetle tends to sleep at the wheel.
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Happy to see Veetle changed its offerings. I left it because of the porn and lack of family filter. Ever since it touted the availability on ipod and ipad it seems to have begun some self regulation.
@constantmovie, Save the praise for Veetle. They still do a lously job of moderating the broadcasters who try to rope a viewer in by using pornographic thumbnails. If Veetle chooses to ignore this it will be bye-bye sponsors.
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Why are some of you people complaining?! There are many channels that cover virtually all tastes and the best thing… It’s FREE! Not every channel is perfect, but most are now in HD and the broadcasters are working around any glitches. We got rid of our cable box due to financial reasons, Veetle has compensated our viewing needs very well. New movies, live sport, old re-runs, it’s all there.
As I said, it is free so those that are complaining should get a better cable subscription!
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So I’m at a convention in Hawaii and I go to a recommended restaurant for lunch on a Saturday, and at the table next to me, I see 3 locals having their lunch, but watching their IPhone and streaming USC vs Hawaii or some other game?? Anyway, after I finish I asked them, “what site are you using”?, he replies, “Veetle, like Beetle, but with a V”.
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You make some good points, but the comparison between Youtube and Veetle isn’t really apt. It’s like comparing apples to oranges. It’s true that YouTube is struggling to make a profit for Google, and from commercial standpoint there is nothing more troublesome. But it was never meant for commercial media in the first place, but social media (or distribution of personal crap). And in that regard, YouTube has been insanely successful. I’m sure that Google isn’t stressing over why they haven’t made too much money off of it, given that the YouTube brand alone is a valuable asset, but they have the deep pockets to weather it out until they find a consistent and profitable revenue model.
Veetle though is really excellent, but its value is being overestimated. The ease of internet broadcasting means distributors will cut the middle man (that is, Veetle) and simply open up their own channels (as Hulu has) and control everything from the release to the consumption. I doubt it will be anything more than a site to channel loops of The Big Bang Theory or European football, entertaining as it is.
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I’m a wheelchair & house-bound Multiple Sclerosis sufferer and I thank the heavens above for the availability of the internet in general, but Veetle specifically.
But having Veetle available has prevented me from going stark-raving-mad and saved my friends from having me send them an almost continuous stream of inane emails that track my daily trek through the entire internet.
So on behalf of myself, half the planet that facebook believes to be my friends, and the three people who are actually my friends: Thank you Veetle and thank you Cringely for giving this wonderful service the recognition it deserves.
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nice post,
but, i think Veetle is not Very Popular like Youtube,
thats why , its not crap.
no offence to Google, but–after they bought Youtube—it sucks more!!
Youtube should be left as it was—-i mean—with craps/ and NO ADs!
–at least it would be gr8 for musical purposes!
—and Veetle does Rocks!!
–Every weekend — EnglishPremierLeague games, ChampionsLeagues,etc…are great…
—Sorry Veetle, but i dont want you to be really famous and start forming crap here –[like youtube]…..
–we all love the Veetle as it is..and of course, with “some” popularity and technological changes —@mac version!
—so far, Veetle has REPLACED TV/cable for me!
Thanks Veetle and its group!
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you are now able to pause veetle on at least some of the channels, i do not know if that is a site wide control as i have not checked each stream.
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You can pause Vettle broadcasts, you just have to know how.
So teach us how to pause Veetle ok?
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