It’s the day after Christmas so of course sales have started and whatever you thought you bought for a good price is suddenly available for a lot less, especially electronics. But this isn’t your normal after-Christmas sale, it’s after-Christmas during one of the worst economic recessions in decades, so prices are lower still. Add to this, at least in the U.S. market, the pending shutdown of analog broadcast TV in February and there ought to be a feeding frenzy of digital set buying. And there will be I’m sure. But it could be a lot better except for a missing link, one small bit of technology the lack of which is costing TV manufacturers billions in lost sales.
The consumer electronics industry is built on the idea of every few years getting us to throw away everything we own and replace it with something entirely new. In home audio the transition was 78/33/8-track/cassette/CD. In home video it was Beta/VHS/DVD/Blu-Ray. Each time we not only had to buy new equipment, we generally had to purchase again our audio and video libraries. And we did, much to the joy of the music and movie industries, though the jury is still out on Blu-Ray (more on that in a couple days).
Unlike automobiles, where there is a robust second-hand market, the consumer electronics food chain is simple and clean: whatever we invested in before is suddenly worthless. But for these technology transitions to be truly successful we ALL have to switch, which doesn’t always happen. Many people never owned an 8-track player, for example, or even a cassette deck, jumping straight from vinyl to CD. But that jump to CD’s, since it was an all-in 100 percent market transformation, was enough to power the audio business to record profits for more than a decade even without a lot of new hit songs. That’s how the Beatles still make $100+ million per year even though the group disbanded in 1970.
The goal, then, is a vinyl-to-CD type transformation. It happened exactly like that for VHS-to-DVD, much to the joy of Warren Lieberfarb. And there’s hope right now that a similar market upheaval will happen as digital TV sets replace analog.
Already there is good news for manufacturers on this front. Something unanticipated happened that has driven LCD and plasma TV sales higher than expected. The fact that these new sets are skinny and can be hung on a wall has changed the way we buy televisions, not just in the U.S. but globally.
There has for almost a century now been a space carved out in most American living rooms for a piece of consumer electronic furniture. Originally it was a console radio complete with gleaming wooden cabinetry. Later the radio was replaced with a TV of comparable size or larger. We positioned our furniture to help us see or hear better, changing the social dynamics of our living spaces. Rooms came to be sized with televisions in mind. And the biggest analog TV screen in my era were 21-23 inches measured diagonally, a size dictated both by the economics of glass blowing and by the maximum cabinet depth the manufacturers thought they could get away with.
Bigger sets were rare because they were expensive but also because they required bigger rooms. Projection sets went into American homes as a result, rather than into homes in Europe or Asia with their generally smaller rooms. And because the size of the market was limited in this way, so too were limited the economies of scale that could be enjoyed by the projection TV makers. Big sets were not only more expensive — they were a LOT more expensive.
Then along came plasma and then LCD displays, which could be hung on a wall taking no floor space at all. Wonder of wonder, when these TVs started selling in Japan most of the buyers were replacing smaller sets with ones that were substantially larger. You could put a honking-big TV in a tiny room if you liked – especially if it was a tight-grained 1080p set. Japanese customers started buying bigger sets, economies of scale began to kick-in so those sets got cheaper so people bought sets that were bigger still. The size effect happened everywhere, too. People the world over are buying bigger sets than ever because they can hang them on a wall.
While this is generally good news all around there is still a disconnect in the marketplace, which is to say a lost opportunity to take even more of our money. When projection sets cost $10,000 most of them were sold to people building home theaters. Now only about 7.5 percent of flat panel televisions are sold for home theaters, which means the market for Dolby 5.1 and 7.1 Surround Sound equipment is severely constrained with prices higher than they ought to be.
We mount a big 120 Hz. 1080p TV up on the wall having bought it for $1100 after Christmas, maybe connect it to a Blu-Ray player or an HD cable or satellite box, then sit down to watch The Dark Knight, listening to the audio through tinny little speakers. What’s wrong with this picture? Everything.
It’s not the money that keeps people from completing their home theaters — it’s the complexity. Ideally we should space-out the front speakers, add rear speakers and then a sub woofer, but this takes extra equipment and, especially, extra wiring. Sure the Geek Squad will install it all for you but that costs extra and limits market penetration. Besides, what if we move and have to rip it all out?
What’s missing here is a de facto wireless audio standard for televisions. Look on the back of any of these new TVs and you’ll find a forest of connections but none of the audio is wireless. There are RCA jacks, minijacks and optical, but no wireless. How much could it cost to add one more audio option? Not much – generally less than $10 in manufacturers’ cost.
Adding less than $10 to the cost of a TV, then, would make it dirt simple to have a home theater. Just buy compatible speaker systems, plug them in and sync them with the TV. The TV will figure out how many speakers and what type are connected and configure the sound output accordingly. There’s no need for wiring and no need for the Geek Squad, either, unless you want them to put the TV on your wall.
Edit — Some readers have pointed out that this could be accomplished just as easily through power line networking. Maybe so. If the price is the same I say go for it. I don’t care. Though a look at the HomePlug market suggests that the price WON’T be the same — it will be higher. I don’t know why. Now back to your regular programming…
If this simple change were to take place the cost of 5.1 and 7.1 audio equipment would drop and consumers could more easily enjoy the true potential of their new TVs. The result for the consumer electronics industry would be even more profound, though – a 50 percent increase in net profit per TV sale. That’s HUGE.
So why doesn’t it happen? That’s because these bozos, as they have shown us time after time, can’t bring themselves to agree on a new technical standard without first enjoying a bloodbath in the market.
There are chipsets available right now to achieve everything I have described. The one I am most familiar with comes from Eleven Engineering in Canada, maker of high-end wireless audio technology for customers like Bose. But there are alternatives to Eleven. All the consumer electronics industry has to do is choose one – ANY ONE.
Boom. We all would suddenly have an incentive to buy more and better stuff. The positive effect this would have on Blu-Ray, for example, should be obvious. It would help video gaming. Heck, it would help the entire economy as we all pump an extra $200 into home electronics – in this case electronics we can take with us next time we move.
I couldn’t agree more. And it’s not just speakers. The back of most home theater setups looks like the snake pit from Raiders of the Lost Ark. There’s just no excuse for this. Why is it that when it comes to computers, all the manufacturers understand the value of standardization and yet not in the world of home audio/video? I suspect that it’s because with computers, the computer manufacturer is really in charge. Your printer or internet connection is not useful without the computer. But your audio system is quite useful without a TV and some people have nice TVs with DVD and audio but no cable because they only watch movies. The other factor is that we don’t change our our home audio/video components and anything like the rate we do computers.
HDMI is a good step in this direction but I find myself wondering what home audio/video would look like if Apple designed these components? You recently asked the question about what the automotive industry would be like with Apple’s design work. The same question could be asked about home audio/video.
?
USB can definitely be rats-nest city.. And _before_ USB? The horror… The horror….
I like it.
When I finally bought a 32″ Sharp Aquas LCD HDTV a year or so ago, I also bought a DVD/Surround Sound system. It was quite a step up from the CRT and stereo speakers I’d used. (And then I discovered PBS running your digital TV special — over and over 24/7 it seemed. I might have made the jump sooner if I’d seen that.)
The DVD unit supported an optional wireless module that would transmit to a powered subwoofer and rear speakers. I thought that was a great way to throw $$$ at a problem instead of having to run 30′ of speaker wire, but I didn’t buy it. I was concerned at wasting electricity powering a second amplifier, in addition to the amp in the DVD unit. Imagine every household with a TV doing that.
Until we get off the grid with solar or wind or whatever, the thought of sucking more juice to to get around having to run some wires seems bad, though I doubt most consumers would even consider their utility costs would go up from such devices.
Or the TV’s could just put in somewhat better speakers and make 90% of us consumers happy.
Bob L
Yes, but it’s not just the quality of the speaker but the placement too. To really get good surround sound the left and right channels need to be pushed away from the set, and that eliminates built in speakers. Video is 80% audio, so IMO it is very important to get that right, and no built in speaker that I have ever seen to date has done that.
Alternatively the TV could come with 3 speakers, 2 of which can be disconnected and moved away from the set. It could come with an optional SUB-OUT plug which would toggle the lower range sounds (Bass) to be sent to the sub or divided into the speakers.
Why bother with wireless? All of these devices need to be plugged in to AC power. just run the sound through the AC wires. Like Powerline/HomePlug.
quote:
“All the consumer electronics industry has to do is choose one – ANY ONE.”
NOT “ANY ONE”!
They surelly will select the worst for the consumer! They will see which one is buggier, unstable ans costier…
Ask please, to “choose the best for the consumer”!!!
I had surround sound and disconnected it because of the bother with all of the wires. A good stereo system was close enough to provide good entertainment for me. The addition of rear/center speakers did not add that much to the experience.
Wow.
That’s profound. You gave up because of the wires, and did it with a stereo, and it’s not much of a difference?
I don’t know man.
Doesn’t sound like you were doing it right at all. Even a basic surround sound system, set up properly, and channeled correctly is indispensable. You get spoiled by it. Nothing else even comes close. Unless you don’t care about that sort of thing to begin with, at which point the whole investment in a sound system becomes kind of a silly idea.
Bob, glad to see the PBS divorce has cleared your mind. This is a clear winner, esp. if the power issues could be worked out (or used as a conduit) like Bruce McL mentions above. But I also have to agree with Bob L above. Better speakers would make 90% of us happy.
Well, while the idea of a “Wireless Home Theater” sounds good, it’s also flawed – just as flawed as the DTV conversion, IMHO.
DTV is flawed because it requires a crisp, clear signal to get a picture that will display. Any interference and it will break and no picture (or a blocky picture that won’t satisfy the user) will come through. Analog was tremendously better for its fault tolerance. The picture might have been a little fuzzy at times, but you could still watch the show. Look for a big drop in TV viewers when the DTV conversion is complete.
A “Wireless Home Theater” would have similar problems, and one additional problem. That one additional problem is “power”. Speakers draw their power from a central source – the amplifier. Eliminate that central source and now they need their own (a) power supply, (b) plug, and (c) surge protector. (You’d have to be crazy to plug that expensive speaker into the outlet directly.)
Then there is the ‘signal quality’ and interference problems. Pick up someone on their cell phone, your neighbor’s wireless land-line phone, your neighbors Wireless Theater, or any one of a number of other problems. Oh, and if you don’t get a good signal, expect a lot more noise to come through.
Wires save so many problems in that realm. Sure they have their own problems too, but they’re more localized, and fewer.
And if you think that the CE manufacturers won’t try to charge an arm and a leg for a good wireless theater system, then you have another thing coming. They like their margins.
Saving a few wires would really make that much difference? Perhaps, but it does show how silly consumerism can be. As if having wired speakers is a massive impediment to moving house.
Silly silly, we humans are just silly.
If wireless speakers for the masses are ever implemented I hope they will not interfere with other part 15 devices or licensed services, like the 2.5ghz cordless phones vs wireless routers sequel. I also hope they will be able to be turned OFF and not be another wall wart silently sucking electric from the power grid when not in use.
Congratulations on busting out! here’s hoping you have a very productive 2009. i am hoping you do some funky stuff like cover white space devices, fonera mods, ssd raid arrays, overclocking and some gaming on big mon (30?) and also on something like kuro, maybe some more antenna building or link aggregation or whathave you…maybe an update on state of clark connect or evolution of all that, anything on running on ram drives would be great, maybe android v2 sneak peek, views of convergence and tipping point on solar and also some quantum comp speculation would be much appreciated- in fact i dare you to try and build one- maybe somebody will- like in their garage or something…it has to scale obviously.this may be a ways out but i like seeing progress/ a big breakthrough is inevitable. ok over and out!
yes, the power issue is a huge deal … most people I know leave tons of things on all the time, silently sucking electric from the from the power grid as Steve mentioned. Sadly, I myself am to blame. What I think would be great would be a system that lets me power on subsystems in my house as needed, and then smartly shut them down when I’m done. I know I could wire everything and do it myself, but not without bending down behind the cabinet and flipping off the power strip. rewiring the house is not an option. I think if there was a system that would cater to this (while still leaving the DVR on to record shows when I’m not watching), it would clean up
What you forgot to add is HDTV and Blue-Ray has price issues. It is not that people don’t want it the price for the avg person is not there yet.
I got a 32″ Magnavox HDTV last June thanks to the simulate check mostly for $625. I could get a tube TV for half that.
Who wants to pay $300 for a Blue-Ray player then $15+ more for the same movie you can get on DVD? Those upconvert players do a pretty good job at making DVD look high def. So much I don’t really see me going Blue-Ray until middle 2009 or even 2010.
I agree that the prices are mad.
I consider myself to be an early adopter and am very excited by Blueray but I really can’t justify the price.
Firstly, there needs to be a cheap “Home Theater” Blueray machine that comes with a built in amp and speakers that are “good-enough” even if not “audiophile-perfect”. And all the features must be there before I’ll even consider chucking my DVD away.
Also, I have spent the last few years buying all my favourite movies on “good-enough” DVDs and I don’t see the point in chucking away over 100 DVDs away for a slight improvement on AV quality.
When I look at, say, “Batman Begins” and think about buying the Blueray I do a mental calculation in my head where I take the price of the BR disk and add the cost of what I paid for the DVD together.. and I can’t justify this.
The movie companies should buy back DVDs at the current price and then I would consider Blueray. Alternatively, Blueray should be sold at the same price DVDs are. The content is not new, the actors have done their bit, the movie is not enhanced in any way over DVD. (Well the content is better but the originals that the content comes from is the same.) I can’t believe that the production costs are double.
I think that consumers (me,anyhow) are just tired of upgrading each time a new Disk type comes out. The time period from when 76s records were out until CDs was decades and the quality increase was amazing. The time period from DVDs (when people generally started buying them in earnest) to Blueray is about 10 years – not long enough.
I thought the article was great but there was one thing that bothered me! You should have titled your article “The Broken Link” or else you should have changed the picture that’s showing to two links separated by open space…other than that I thought it was superb writing.
Cabling, speakers and connections definitely make it very complex but the other angle that also needs to be addressed is the remote control. Even without the receiver, there can easily be 3 or 4 remotes and I have never found a good universal. Surely a standard such as bluetooth could be used to allow pairing and control of all equipment on a nicely designed remote.
This is PRECISELY why I haven’t bought an HD flat TV. My 20-year-old 27-inch Sony CRT TV (the coolest at the time) has some sweet speakers and a subwoofer integrated (on top). All the current alternatives force me to go through the rip-your-room-apart scenario. Although I am really looking for something to hook to my PS3.
Another good article but on home theater (HT), but I find that the HT part most in need of simplification isn’t setting up five to seven speakers wirelessly. (Speakers, excluding sub-woofers, are the easiest thing to setup (even given if speakers go wireless, they would now need electric power outlets under the couch).
The big problems in setting up HTs are the way overly complex receiver and figuring out the remotes. (Granted, something like a Harmony remote does work wonders on the remote issue — again at additional cost and time). Let’s just discuss setting up the controlling HT system.
Most folks just want to power up their receiver, TV and DVD player and get it to sound and look great. They don’t want to figure out where to plug in their antenna, cable or satellite dish. (TV, DVR, or receiver?) They have no idea what component or composite or even what HDMI means. Just watch their confused faces trying to explain bi-amping or dipole speakers to the church crowd. 🙂
More good luck to you explaining assigning optical or coaxial inputs or explaining multi-channel audio cables. We won’t even touch on this wildly consumer hostile and misnamed “digital rights management.”
Now, assuming that you got the new HT correctly connected and even used the included microphone to properly setup the speakers, you are now left to figure out the most confusing thing of all, what codec do I use for what source? Direct, DTS, DTS-HD, DTS-HD Master Audio, TrueHD, Neural Surround, Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital, Dolby Plus, etc.? (How many stickers does your receiver have?) Make an incorrect choice and maybe only two of your five or seven new speakers will output sound.
The receiver manuals that I have read (from Denon and Onkyo) are so obtuse that you would need a PHD in understand them. The onscreen setup display (OSD) setup menus are just as confusing.
Don’t ask about using you big beautiful TV as an Internet display or connecting your computer to your new 50 inch display because what connection will we use? VGA, DVI, HDMI, Display Port or Apple’s new Mini Display Port and that is assuming that you can get a wired or wireless (802-11 A, B, G, pre-N, N, or Powerline) connection in your living or media room.
Until the home theater industry can sell devices that use one cable/connection (say USB) and self-detect and self-setup themselves for the best options (along the line of computer USB peripherals), I don’t hold any hope for wide HT acceptance and I love a great HT system!
SteveH
> The receiver manuals that I have read (from Denon and Onkyo) are so obtuse that you
> would need a PHD in understand them. The onscreen setup display (OSD) setup menus
> are just as confusing.
You need a Ph.D? Sixty Minutes did a topic about this very issue. They showed one person who could not figure out how to connect his HDTV to the various other components. This person had a Ph.D in Electrical Engineering.
You don’t need a Ph.D, you need to be a teenage male.
Bob, I’m enjoying 5.1 sound, with built-in rear wireless speakers connecting over the power line, with a Logitech add-on to my HDTV. It was fall-over, drop-dead simple to install, has extra ports for the $40 HD Radio receiver I got on closeout, and delivers superb, clear sound. Logitech Z-5450 http://digitalcontentproducer.com/soundforpic/revfeat/logitech/
Roku for Netflix.
Have them design the standard. It is the simplest, easiest to install piece of electronic equipment ever. And it’s wireless. Took me literally five minutes from the time I unpacked it until I was watching a movie.
Plus, their remote is simple. Five or so buttons that do everything I need it to do.
P.s. I assume that anyone who thinks a few wires running around the living room is no big deal is not married. Nothing my wife hates more than wires in living spaces.
The unlicensed spectrum is already a big mess, but if you want to go wireless for the surrounds and subs, the A2DP bluetooth standard is a good way to do it, although pairing could be confusing. But many houses aren’t going to have power outlet in ideal locations either, so now you’re back to running wires, except this time for 110VAC instead of a few watts worth of surround sound.
But the bigger issue is just how difficult is it? I think most people who complain about how difficult connecting components together approach the task biased that it is “just too hard” and give up before trying. I’ve helped out doctors and businessmen, people who are much smarter than myself, who had their systems screwed up because they just didn’t think about what they are doing. When I sit them down and go over what they really want to do, it helps them think it through and the usually will understand.
The wires are another issue, but there are solutions, like the real thin and wide speaker wires that are safe to run under a carpet and can run up the wall, covered with joint compound and painted. Sure, it’s a little more work, but the look is invisible and the results are fantastic.
“I think most people who complain about how difficult connecting components together approach the task biased that it is “just too hard” and give up before trying.”
I’m a Home Theater (and HT-Mac) geek, and I think it is FAR too difficult. Yes I can successfully do it, but for someone with my experience it should be child’s play, but it is painful drudgery. Denon’s manuals are written by Martians. Their remotes are horrible and get less usable with each new model. And Denon is one one of the best in the business with four figure prices to match!
Compare that with the ease with which Apple’s computers and other stuff can be set up. There is a better way, a much better way. Blaming HT customers for “not trying” is absurd or needing to “think it through” is absurd. It is not their fault, period.
There should be ONE connector type for everything — audio/video/etc. Firewire is perfect because it has a high enough bandwidth for HD video, has identical connectors on both ends, can be endlessly daisy chained, can support long cable runs, and can cary the juice for self powered speakers, etc.
The problem of course is that the “content” industry will never agree to it, because there isn’t a Firewire copy protection standard. So simplicity will once again be sacrificed to “protect content” for the best customers. (Pirates of course are under none of the strictures that paying customers are).
Apple, Inc very badly wants to dominate the home entertainment video market. Apple TV Mk II is so far strike two, but I am led to understand that Apple is preparing to market a new monitor/TV set exclusively through a major retailer that will dictate the industry standard. Easy to install, hook up out of the box and wireless speaker capability to deliver affordable theater rich sound.
In audio you forgot the 45 rpm. I think between the 75 and 33 or concurrent with 33.
I agree that wireless surround speakers would be killer, but I’m not sure they would be a killer app, per se. That’s because in my experience normal people (i.e. not home theater geeks) care a lot more about video quality than they do about audio quality. In other words, they are more willing to live with crappy audio than they are willing to live with crappy video — and it’s that “I can’t live without upgrading” feeling that drives big, successful upgrades.
I’m no expert on the subject but I think it has to do with video upgrades being more immediately obvious (and therefore easier to justify) than audio upgrades are. With better video, the proof is literally right before your eyes. With better audio, the proof is in the listening, and there’s abundant evidence that most people consider compressed stereo sound to be Good Enough — witness the failure of hi-definition multichannel audio formats like DVD-Audio and SACD, and the roaring success of MP3 (a step forward in convenience from CDs, but a step backward in audio quality).
So I’m not sure if the market for higher-quality multichannel audio will *ever* be as large as the market for, say, DVDs is. Even if the systems are drop dead easy to set up (and self-configuring systems would certainly meet that description), they still cost more money than just relying on the TV’s speakers, and that will turn off a lot of people who just don’t care enough about audio to spend that extra dough.
Good audio does improve the experience of video a great deal, one of the reasons that I dislike most theaters as they equate volume with sound quality even for a children’s movie.
With the correct room trim, e.g. crown molding or baseboard, the wires are easily hidden. Using 12/2 electrical wire from the local hardware store is cheap enough that leaving it behind for the next occupants shouldn’t be that big of deal.
Please put a comments link at the bottom of the article to go with the one at the top.
Besides a wireless audio transmission, the speakers would also need a wireless power source, a battery or fuel cell. The power source could be bigger to last longer because people wouldn’t care if the speakers are twice as big as long as they are truly are wireless.
Anyone know such a product?
If it doesn’t exist this would be a great opportunity for exisiting audio brands to differentiate themselves.
Heck, even when they agree on a standard they don’t admit it! Take HDMI-CEC, for instance. Aside from being a rather useless standard — mainly because the interface to it sucks on every equipment I have seen — it actually, and surprisingly, works. But you’ll have a hard time finding a manufacturer willing to admit to being interoperable. They’ll instead call it by proprietary names and claim it only works within their brand.
I don’t think the limiting factor for adoption of home theater has to do with speaker wiring complexity, its the wires and unsightliness of the speakers themselves. Also, those beautiful thin plasmas and LCDs are great until you connect the DVD player and the Cable or satellite Set-top Box, the AppleTV, etc, etc. These things dont’ fit on top of the TV set. And they can’t be placed in the closet or else the infrared remote controls don’t work. And it’s not easy to hide that subwoofer either. Also, all those HDMI cables running up the wall to the TV set kind of ruin the aesthetics Wireless speakers may be a small part of the solution to the integration problem, but you still need to route and hide the wires for power. (actually an audio cable can be routed in the wall cavity relatively easily, but power installation has to be much more robust to comply with the NEC).
Shortly before 8 track there was the 4 track cartridge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-track_cartridge
Early competing formats.
This is a fun article for an MBA econ or marketing class to explore the idea that the law of variable proportions applies at an extra-firm level defined by the systems the individual firm products are used in.
– Who has the incentive to generate the defacto standard? Answer the Dolby 5.1 and 7.1 makers.
– How would you organize a marketing program to cause a market stampede to a defacto standard if you worked at a Dolby firm? How would it vary if you could keep a proprietary advantage in the defacto standard?
– How would you compute the benefits of your Dolby defacto standard having vs. not having a proporietary lock-in? It may well be worth doing even if you can’t maintain a proprietary advantage. How would you set up the break even calculation?
Sent this to an econ prof friend. Cringley, this format makes more sense! I still owe you dinner for your article years ago on ClarkConnect servers! Best Regards!!!
bill meade
I’ve always used a quality pair of headphones when viewing movies. Although not multi-channel, I feel more into the action than viewing at a theater. If you have only $200 to spend on audio, buy headphones (even with IR if you don’t like the wire!) as speakers at that price range will suck big time.
Here’s something even more boneheaded: Many of the same companies that make these flat screen, high definition, wall hanging HDTV sets also make …wait for it… stereo equipment!
To heck with a single industry standard. Just come up with a completely incompatible proprietary way to connect your own brand of speakers and other equipment wirelessly to your own brand of TV? After all, Sony already does this for almost everything else they make (memory sticks anyone?), so why don’t they do this for their HDTV? They sell speakers, they sell amplifiers, they sell BlueRay players.
Imagine how this could greatly increase Sony’s profit. You bought a nice Sony HDTV, and now you want to buy a BlueRay player to show movies on your new HDTV. Should I buy a Sony BlueRay player or save a few bucks and buy a Walmart special? Buy the one from Walmart, and you’ll have to get the cables and figure out how to connect it all up. Plus, come to think of it, my HDTV isn’t sitting in a TV cabinet like my old TV. It’s hanging on the wall. Where would I put that BlueRay player in order to connect it to my TV?
But if you buy Sony’s BlueRay player, You can put it almost anywhere in your living room, plug it in, and it just works.
“It just works”? That sounds familiar… Isn’t there some company that uses that same slogan? I think they make computers and MP3 players that they sell at a large price premium.
All I want is to hear those helicopters flying over the room from behind me. And have them sound like helicopter engines rather than clockwork mice.
Surprising how many people are prepared to spend $x,000’s to have a big-screen TV to hang on their wall but don’t care that the audio sounds like chattering insects and the special effects sound like slapping pillows.
Look, Bob you think like a consumer. Not like a Manufacturer.
Bigger sells. Better sells. If every Mfg. offers one where’s the incentive to
have one. I won’t be a selling point. And what wireless gadget guy would get
all the millions. And please allow me in on that meeting,cuz i gonna buy his stock. Bob it’s called competition….. so warm up the Bloodbath!
PS …. I’ll bet Apple comes out with the first wireless surround system TV.
They have for almost everything else. They won’t wait for standardization.
My thoughts on wireless.
I’ve wished for Wireless speakers ever since I got Wife 1.0. Wires are not very compatible with Wife’s idea for TV_Room.
However, 6 years of marriage has allowed me the freedom of two wires running to the back of the room, one along the wall behind stuff and one under the couch and a rug. All other wires are hidden by the TV and the TV stand.
I consider surround sound to be very important. Even for non-explosion-based movies. Even Dolby Surround makes TV much more exciting. And even for shows like The Apprentice and Survivor that enclose you in well-chosen heart-beating music. I can’t go back to stereo. I’d rather watch TV on a small black and white set with surround sound.
I get very upset with people who buy expensive Sony equipment and the like (the best on the market) and then put the surround speakers next to the front speakers. Grrrr.
But, getting power to the speakers is the big issue. If there was a way to get the power to the speakers without using wires then I bet that by now every home theater system would be wireless. My one back speaker is by a plug-point but the other isn’t so it would need a cable of its own across the room to the wall and it may as well plug into the amp.
The only other way around the power issue is battery power but you’d have to weigh up the ugliness of wires versus the whole effort of replacing batteries (or recharging them). Its taken 6 years but I’ve got the right to my two wires. I don’t want batteries.
You are chipping away at a symptom of the problem but not the root cause. People just want to see the TV – and nothing else.
mac84 says: “I don’t think the limiting factor for adoption of home theater has to do with speaker wiring complexity, its the wires and unsightliness of the speakers themselves.”
This comment NAILS why multi-channel audio isn’t the hit that a flat TV is. It isn’t that HDTVs are popular because of the resolution over SDTVs; they are more popular because they are FLAT and can be mounted to walls WITHOUT other equipment (speakers, amps, etc).
I have a 7.1+2 Yamaha multi-channel system and a 61″ DLP RPTV in my living room. When people visit, they are in awe of the sound and picture (moreso the audio) BUT are not willing to buy into HT due to the “ugly speakers” first, the “ugly wiring” second, and the expense third. It is always the speakers that are the deal-breaker. As a result, most people buy the TV and settle for an increase picture only.
While wireless and a TV/receiver based GUI would help install the HT and a web-programmable remote would help operate the HT – the root problem remains — the unsightlyness of all of the equipment beyond the monitor. People want to see JUST the TV.
This comment NAILS why multi-channel audio isn’t the hit that a flat TV is. It isn’t that HDTVs are popular because of the resolution over SDTVs; they are more popular because they are FLAT and can be mounted to walls WITHOUT other equipment (speakers, amps, etc).
You still have at least 2 cables running out of the screen though, unless you put fixtures behind the mount.. Leaving that aside though yeah, it’s def. prettier than the traditional rat’s nest
I have a 7.1+2 Yamaha multi-channel system and a 61″ DLP RPTV in my living room. When people visit, they are in awe of the sound and picture (moreso the audio) BUT are not willing to buy into HT due to the “ugly speakers” first, the “ugly wiring” second, and the expense third. It is always the speakers that are the deal-breaker. As a result, most people buy the TV and settle for an increase picture only.
Thing with wiring is, though, you have to have some of it to get stuff to work, so it becomes an issue of rats-nest arbitrage.. Wireless speakers don’t get power wirelessly (unless your grandfather was Nikola Tesla), so you have to mount speakers near power sockets and/or run extension cords, this may or may not be convenient. Good, heavy-gauge wiring for clean signal is bulky, but at least it carries power along with it.
I posted below about the Amphony gizmo, though theoretically someone could come up with a “standardized” A2DP bluetooth kit so you could buy a central “surround server”, and mono or stereo “surround clients” with or without builtin amps.
IMO, HDMI is probably the best thing to happen to rat’s nest in awhile, condensing between 3 and 5 RCA connectors (and/or fiber SPDIF) down to 1 skinny digital cable for component interconnect.
Wireless won’t work. To do it you’d need to (re)digitize the signal, send it to the speakers, then reconvert to analog. All speakers would have to be active (built in amps), or have the amp right next to it, requiring electric outlets for each speaker. Sound quality would be lower than a good wired system and it would be just as complex, if not more so. You would also need to find a good frequency to broadcast, which may be difficult. You also don’t address what is known in the audio biz as the “wife factor” – not everyone wants a bunch of speakers in their living room even if there’s no wires running to them. Seriously, this is not a good idea.
Bob, your not very knowledgeble if you think Bose is hig-end audio. Bose is nothing but a marketing machine these days and most of their stuff is crap.
But back to the original topic … The problem with your idea is speaker amplification. So great, you have a wireless audio signal. And the speakers are going to play it how? Great, so now I don’t need one receiver I need 5 amplifiers. That is sure to cost more than having a local installer run wires. And you will likely end up with some crappy amps to boot.
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Sonos could probably crank this out in half a week. It’s a latency/synchronization problem, not a transmission problem. But it would be nice to have a standard for channel selection, so you could pick up one of your surrounds, unplug it so it runs on battery power, and bring it out on the deck with you. You’d twist the little switches from ‘left rear’ to ‘mix’ and set your amplifier to play your tunes. When you wanted to add those side channel speakers, you’d just get a couple of speakers from any vendor and set their left/center/right/mix front/side/rear/mix switches appropriate and let the network configure itself with MDNS or something.
Good idea!
You mean this product Cisco is going to announce at CES?
https://www.engadget.com/2008/12/29/cisco-to-invade-homes-next-year-with-new-wireless-music-streamer/
Bob, I think you missed the big story. The upgrade cycle is dead. The content companies would love to force everyone to repurchase all their audio and video again and again, but computers and the internet have replaced physical media. It’s over. The consumer finally won.
Blue ray will never be an important technology. It will be seen by most people as just a higher capacity DVD. That is why Apple won’t put blue ray in their computers. Young people, and the tech savvy, have large libraries of MP3’s, not large libraries of disks. The disks were ripped a long time ago and are long forgotten.
Blue ray will never be an important technology. It will be seen by most people as just a higher capacity DVD. That is why Apple won’t put blue ray in their computers.
Naah, Apple won’t do Bluray because, leaving aside the whole iTMS/AppleTV HD thing, it really is a big bag of hurt. AACS, BD+ is onerous and expensive, and with Slysoft cracking every BD+ change anyway is just stupid and futile. When Bluray abandons upgradable/networkable DRM, Apple will support it.. Heck, Bluray combo readers are already below $150-200, and burners below $300, maybe another year.. But Sony & Fox will probably persist in their DRM stupidity long enough to kill the physical media market, leaving Netflix online, XBox Live, and iTMS with their 720p and non-TrueHD crapola :/
Several responses:
I, too, don’t get why wireless speaker connections aren’t built into TVs and such. It seems a no brainer.
I side with someone else in wondering about controlling all our devices. I know Kenwood had a system where you plug all your components together and they act as a single device from the remote. Punch the CD button and the external CD player starts playing. But there was no way to connect in a DVD player or TV. Sony is ideally placed to do this right. Sony sells all the parts. I suspect that TVs are one division, DVD/BluRay another division and audio in another division and the divisions can’t agree on a way to control them all. If people are willing to spend from $150 to $500 for a Harmony (or similar) remote, and spend the time to “program” the thing, there has got to be a market premium for this. I don’t see any manufacturer adding a device to let some other manufacturer’s devices interoperate though. That’s the shame of it all.
Oh and pairing BlueTooth devices. What I’ve wondered about why there is no “touch” based way to do this. With stuff like phones, earpieces and music players that are portable you should be able to touch the two devices together (maybe there is a “touch plate” for this use) and that’s all you do to pair them. With larger stuff, like TVs, you could touch the two remotes together or touch the remote to one device to “copy” the connection and then touch the other device and click a button to “paste” that connection into it.
With the latests amplifier designs you can go from a stream of bits to sound quite efficiently (as long as you don’t need audiophile quality). Putting several of these in the speaker, for each of the drivers (tweeter, woofer, etc), reduces further the amount of power drawn since it can be matched specifically for the speaker components instead of being in a shared amplifier that must handle all sorts of different speakers.
Besides doing it wirelessly, you could do it with a cable similar to a computer network cable which would be smaller and easier to hide than the current bulky speaker cables.
Telling the common folk to plug a speaker in is conceptually simpler than telling them to run a wire to the TV (or amp). Most houses have power in every wall if someone wants to add a plug somewhere. Also, for those who choose not to rewire the house, everyone knows how to run an extension cord and you can get one of almost any color for a few bucks.
Even the “wife” lives with running power cords to lamps and such scattered around the room.
It is also common knowledge how to avoid setting the house on fire due to funky power connections.
Home theater…
From what I’ve seen at costco and best buy, there are definitely affordable 5.1 systems with wireless surrounds out there, but yeah they’re all pretty much not interoperable.. I actually have a run of 14-gauge shielded wire running under a throw rug to my rears, it’s damn ugly but it’ll do for awhile..
For a semi-open wireless surround solution, I’ve been looking at Amphony’s 1500 wireless stereo transceiver kit, which would go quite nicely into a 2-channel amp I could easily hide behind the couch..
As far as simplified wiring standards, in theory HDMI is basically doing it now (as much as folks complain about HDCP, I have yet to have it cause any interop problems) between components. But for speaker cabling, keep in mind that amps tend to have to push more power than you would safely handle over, say, USB cables. So you’re basically pushing the rats-nest outwards (which is what I’m actually fixing to do with the aforementioned Amphony gizmo). Also, folks’ soundstages will be wildly different as far as physical location, acoustic properties of materials and furnishings, etc. In theory you would have something similar to a LC-connector that would prevent you from cabling polarity issues (cabling pos to neg terminal or vice versa), but then you need to have a crimping tool once you’ve cut your cable to length, or you end up having to hide overage cable (rats nest city)..
BTW, I think there was a Sceptre LCD HDTV that separated the display from the tuner/audio/etc (looked like a big cable box), so you could have a clean display whilst hiding the ugly box and all its rear cables (including speaker cables IIRC).. But I don’t think you’re going to see manufacturers come to a standard for speakers, or at least for speakers that sound any good.
I can say that this is one of the reasons I have not hooked up surround at my new home – the wiring is not convenient at all, and I don’t feel like drilling holes in the floor, then running a wire up to my ceiling-mounted rear speaker. Not worth it.
For over two decades we have not heard of dudes running down the alley with a TV he just stole, too big and heavy were our 31″ Zeniths. We can’t say that any more. I can carry two 42″ LCDs…one under each arm!
Where does the biggest TV in the house live? In the same room with the biggest window that also happens to usually face the street. We might as well tape c-notes to the picture window.
I’m keeping my Dreadnought until it dies…or until EVERYONE in North America already has 3 flat-panels…or until I move.
If you’re afraid of wires, you can still get excellent sound with a quality two speaker setup. If you want surround effects without running speaker wire, you can use a sound bar product like:
https://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/surroundbar/
Wireless speakers are not likely to be popular because:
#1 Audiophiles and geeks will not want to use them because they would likely have lower sound quality and reliability than wires (to achieve the same sound quality, you’d essentially need a receiver in each speaker).
#2 The average person who uses their TV speakers simply doesn’t care. If they wanted good sound quality they could get a simple two speakers system, but they don’t even bother to do that. Why would they go out and get a system of wireless speakers?
#3 Even if the average person got the wireless speaker setup, it would be a pain for them to use, because they wouldn’t be able to get the receiver and remote functioning in a simple way. Most likely they’d end up using the TV speakers 95% of the time.
With HDMI, the consumer-electronics function of “TV” and “receiver” just merged. TVs have also been the receiver already for those who only want the tinny speakers: all those big-screen sets also have about four inputs for those who hook up the DVD/BR, the cable box, the old VCR all right to the TV. But HDMI also carries the sound in one cable, so if you’re hooking the TV with HDMI anyway, why not have it handle the sound?
You need a larger power supply by a few hundred watts to be a respected receiver, and the added circuit boards could be another few hundred(?), but I think it would command a premium price and sell like hotcakes.
Put the L&R speaker terminals at the far ends of the TV bottom, minimizing cable length (and confusion). If you plug them in, the TV speakers revert to handling the centre-speaker job; they’re good enough for that and save you the cost of a centre speaker. And the wire. The top of the TV is high up in the room, well-positioned to use IR to send back-speaker signals, or you could have a wired option. Sell back speakers with it, but open the IR standard…
This would be a more costly TV, but save you from buying a whole receiver, and the hell of plugging it all together. Every device has one wire to the back of the TV, there’s optional speaker wires, that’s it. And one remote out of the box could handle the video and sound and input-switching.
Man, I’d pay many hundreds extra for that, if anybody’s listening.
[…] rear speakers in home theatre setups, which seems kind of like the problem I want to solve. Here’s a recent blog post from the always-interesting Bob Cringely about the absence of wirele…, for example. But I think most of the problem there is that you’ve still got to get power to […]
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As for surround sound, I couldn’t agree more. My family room is on a slab, whereas the rest of the house in over a full-height basement. It was also built in the 80’s before surround sound was even an option. The result is that we have lived here for almost 5 years, and the surround speakers are still packed away in the basement. Every once in a while I think about hooking up surround, but then I look around the room and the work it would take to do so and I just give up.
I would even accept bluetooth, I DON’T CARE ABOUT THE FORMAT, I just want wireless speakers. And not just in the family room, but maybe I’d throw one in the bedroom too, if it was just that easy.
I think the biggest barrier to entry is that people just don’t believe it adds that much to the experience.
a big bright TV is a no-brainer.
surround audio? no one’s really going to believe it…and commercials like Bose 3.2.1 are muddying the waters.
I just have to second what’s been said about active vs. passive speakers.. I worked at a radio station that had older passive(non-powered) speakers in it’s editing studios that worked great, probably some of the cleanest and loudest nearfields I’ve ever worked with. When they built a new studio in the same building they had to put in active speakers(the pro-audio market is such these days that all the new speakers are active). This studio has had constant problems with RF coming from cellphones blipping in the speakers, even though they are wired and mouted on the ceiling. I agree with the need for wireless speakers for home theatre, especially since so much of the digital audio already running about in most setups is totally unused. But if there are RF problems like I’ve described in a pro environment in a home environment nobody will tolerate it.
Wireless home audio is next, that’s a given. I don’t know why it isn’t a standard already. The days of running speaker wire under area rugs or baseboards is getting real old. Everything else from your cell phone to your laptop is wireless, why isn’t home audio?
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Wireless home audio is next, that’s a given. I don’t know why it isn’t a standard already. The days of running speaker wire under area rugs or baseboards is getting real old. Everything else from your cell phone to your laptop is wireless, why isn’t home audio?cheap VPS
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И вот еще что, вы обзательно похудеете если вы точно этого хотите)
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